An Open Letter To This Commmunity

[NightFlyer]

Regarding the posts recently deleted from the DPI thread:

As I stated in the now closed Stasi/Gestapo thread, my comment on the DPI review thread that was deleted was meant to be taken half seriously and half in jest, as Josh previously affirmatively and expressly stated that anyone with Bill Robertson-esque modifications on their car would be blacklisted from doing business with DPI.

It starts at the linked to post and continues throughout the thread:

http://dmctoday.com/showthread.php?656-Split-DMCH-Refurbished-Cars-Past-and-Present&p=11287&viewfull=1#post11287

Many of Bill's modifications could be called red-necky or butchery by those who don't really know or respect what he has done to his car, as his mods have been so attacked as such on this forum many times in the past. Even the #2 man Mike had previously publicly stated that the car wisdom found amongst Today members (specifically referring to both Bill R and Steve Rice) was akin to "duct tape and lawn mower parts."

As Josh revealed in the thread, his reluctance to sell to AdmiralSenn is over concerns about the reputation of his products being used in modifications/projects that he personally doesn't approve of, which AdmiralSenn openly and freely admitted were of the kind that Bill's mods have been likened to on this forum - an admitted basket case cobbled together in frankenstein fashion on a budget. And IMHO, there's nothing wrong with such, as that's what the car hobby is truly all about.

And while Josh has every right as a business person to refuse service to those that he deems are unworthy for whatever reason (so long as such reason doesn't violate federal protected classes laws), I can't help but to see what he ultimately did as being akin to the kind of blacklisting that he was talking about in the thread over on Today.

Accordingly, my comment which was deleted from that thread, which attempted to convey one possibility as to why Josh wasn't getting back to AdmiralSenn, which I've always maintained was half serious and half in jest, turned out to be extremely accurate. And had I not attempted to clarify the situation such as I did, the community never would have known this, as my comment alluding to it had been deleted by an admin for no reason given.

And while Chad's comment did admittedly contain some hearsay, he should have been allowed the opportunity to either substantiate such with evidence or voluntarily withdraw his comment. Regardless, the non-hearsay elements of his comment should have been permitted to remain in tact.

I also found it quite interesting that the comments at issue were deleted within a matter of minutes - the admin responsible had the time to delete them so quickly, but didn't have the time to offer an explanation of their action over 12 hours after-the-fact? Having been viewing the 'who's online' section during that interlude, I can say for certain that DPI Josh was PM'ing someone as soon as those comments hit the thread. Magically, admins began logging on, and then within minutes of the posts going live, they were deleted. But not a single admin had the time to offer an explanation, despite having publicly explained why they closed threads (of completely innocent OPs, BTW) wherein they experienced problems with Prof Hinkley - SERIOUSLY?!?! That doesn't look very good, IMHO.

The comments definitely shouldn't have been deleted, absent some sort of collusion with the vendor, as that's the only logical conclusion that remained, which is why I asserted such as I did.

The community at large has freely derided and openly attacked blacklisting practices since their known existence - and for good reason, as it's bad business IMHO, not to mention how such practices eventually led to the downfall of what formerly was the largest source of DeLorean parts and service in the world.

DeLorean1 / Ed Bernstein blacklisted VINs when he perceived their current owners to be troublemakers, whereas Josh is now just blacklisting the current owners that he perceives as being troublemakers. Otherwise, there's no discernible difference here. Ed also adamantly and openly held himself/business out as being second to none and the best when it came to DeLoreans, while constantly and consistently trash talking his competition, and I'll let Josh's own assertions speak for DPI in such regard, but needless to say, it's an eerily similar pattern that one can observe.

Good day to all,
--Josh S.
#1798

[Delorean Industries]

The highly confidential DPI no sell list has been leaked:


DPI NO SELL LIST

BUSINESS:
DMC/AFFILIATES
DAP/SPECIALTAUTO

OWNER:
Josh S
Bill
Dracula


Senn did not burn the bridge for the record. Once things calm down I will contact him.


Because you need this explained to you I will spell it out. Declining to sell a service and or provide doesn't mean that you are black listed. You are obviously confused on this and I will make it a point to clear this up. Just because I don't feel comfortable with one thing doesn't mean I'm not with another. I'm sure this goes for virtually every business out there. Hopefully you understand this terminology in use above.

[Dracula]

As I have told Tamir himself, I did not appreciate the insinuation that my comments were hearsay and slander. For something to be slanderous, it has to be a false statement.

While it is no secret that I don't like Josh at DPI, I have not said anything about him that is not 100% true. I do not appreciate that he had accused me of doing so publicly and didn't give me the option to rebut such accusations.

To prove that I was speaking fact, here is another thread to verify that, in this month, DPI has failed to address customer's concerns:


Just noticed an email pop up. My order has been cancelled and money refunded with no explanation given. Guess I'm blacklisted from DPI now.

still no word on the ham n cheese.

http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?920-The-DPI-parts-order

Here is a post where Josh himself boasts of deceiving DMCH:


Can someone please explain to me how I make money? Apparently the experts here know. I can't seem to figure it out....... I'm just so confused with cars coming from all over the world outside of my defined "radius". Or the 70 plus exhaust systems sold this year to date. Or how that my superior manufacturing techniques net DPI massive profits while keeping the components affordable and priced competitively with my competition. Or my huge NOS stock pile accumulated from years of purchasing inventories and yes of course on occasion deceiving DMC and landing 10%. This is just too much for me to handle. I mean if the above map is true I'm upside down and I don't even know it. I better start letting the work force go and look into bankruptcy immediately......

http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?928-DPI-s-Sphere-of-Influence-and-Profitability&p=18676&viewfull=1#post18676

I suppose that the part about Josh boasting about deceiving DMCH could be considered hearsay, but seeing as I heard it directly from Josh, wouldn't that make it a confession?

I did not have the chance to verify the information in my post as truthful, as it was deleted in minutes.

My post also advised AdmiralSenn to, instead, try contacting the folks at DMCMW as I've never had anything but positive interactions with them and am presently working on a laundry list of obscure parts to be picked up, ideally, sometime this fall.

[NightFlyer]

The highly confidential DPI no sell list has been leaked:


DPI NO SELL LIST

BUSINESS:
DMC/AFFILIATES
DAP/SPECIALTAUTO

OWNER:
Josh S
Bill
Dracula

Senn did not burn the bridge for the record. Once things calm down I will contact him.

Good to know - thanks for clearing that up :)

Though FYI - Senn felt as if he was on the blacklist, or at least that's what he conveyed to me anyway.


Because you need this explained to you I will spell it out. Declining to sell a service and or provide doesn't mean that you are black listed. You are obviously confused on this and I will make it a point to clear this up. Just because I don't feel comfortable with one thing doesn't mean I'm not with another. I'm sure this goes for virtually every business out there. Hopefully you understand this terminology in use above.

So a do not sell/service list is not the same as a blacklist.

You're right - I am confused by that statement, as the universally accepted definition of the term 'blacklist' would appear to disagree with you :wink:

BTW - Even though I'm blacklisted, I still personally have nothing against Josh, his products, or his services.

I'm able to remain completely objective about the whole thing, though I can't help but noticing and mentioning the similarities of such a practice to those of the now defunct DeLorean 1 / Ed B....

Just sayin....

[Delorean Industries]

No longer carrying the oem fuel pump. The customer was advised of this and refunded. Your point is irrelevant.

If I need something from DMCH on a rare occasion I get a hold of it. They are paid in full, I get what I needed. It's not illegal. Your point is irrelevant.




Do not sell black listing of the few people/companies listed is different from not selling a part or service.

EXAMPLE:

I don't want to do the engine portion perhaps because of a conflict of interests. Doesn't mean I won't do brakes and suspension work. Get it?

[Michael]

Actually that thread worked itself out (probably because it wasn't closed or threads deleted), but DPI did in fact call me and everything is cool and they took care of it to my satisfaction. For anyone interested just read the thread....to the end.

To add to DPI's concerns, I have refused work to people when I was a service manager at Mercedes. A (rather demanding) customer brought his E class in for brake pads. Problem was his rotors were way past minimum thickness and I told him he needed new front rotors as well. Probably an extra 250.00 give or take. He absolutely refused so I decided not to open the shop up to any liability. Now I knew the rotors probably wouldn't fail, I was more concerned about him screwing up his calipers and upon the next brake pad replacement I'm sure he would blame us for needing a pair of 600.00 calipers. "Why didnt you warn me??

It just wasn't worth it for a brake job. Had it been cosmetic, no problem cut corners, but when it comes to anything safety related we refused to cut corners. He got all pissy and I really didn't care. I have no concern for people with 60k cars who will not spend a few hundred to stop, but will most definitely find the money for the illuminated door sill option or the matching luggage.

It happened at a Volvo dealership. A customer sued the dealer for her timing belt breaking even though they told her it needed to be replaced, she refused, the belt eventually broke and the pistons ate the valves, and she got the repair paid for.

Don't blame the vendor, blame the " sue happy jacked up blame everyone but yourself" legal system.

[Dracula]

No longer carrying the oem fuel pump. The customer was advised of this and refunded. Your point is irrelevant.

If I need something from DMCH on a rare occasion I get a hold of it. They are paid in full, I get what I needed. It's not illegal. Your point is irrelevant.

The complaint wasn't that you didn't carry it, the complaint was that there was no notification prior to him publicly complaining and calling you out; the exact same thing that happened with AdmiralSenn.

My point is that it had happened before to other individuals in the recent past; my point is 100% valid.


If I need something from DMCH on a rare occasion I get a hold of it. They are paid in full, I get what I needed. It's not illegal. Your point is irrelevant.

My point was that you admitted to conning another business that you work with; it may not be a voluntary relationship, but you do work with them nonetheless.

You say, in your own words, that you have engaged in "on occasion deceiving DMC and landing 10%."

Again, my point is 100% valid.



Do not sell black listing of the few people/companies listed is different from not selling a part or service.

EXAMPLE:

I don't want to do the engine portion perhaps because of a conflict of interests. Doesn't mean I won't do brakes and suspension work. Get it?

Even if we go by your terms, the literal definition of a "blacklist" is as follows:

black·list
ˈblakˌlist
noun
noun: blacklist; plural noun: blacklists
1.
a list of people or products viewed with suspicion or disapproval.


How that is any different from your "no-sell" list, I do not know.

[NightFlyer]

As I have told Tamir himself, I did not appreciate the insinuation that my comments were hearsay and slander. For something to be slanderous, it has to be a false statement.

While it is no secret that I don't like Josh at DPI, I have not said anything about him that is not 100% true. I do not appreciate that he had accused me of doing so publicly and didn't give me the option to rebut such accusations.

To prove that I was speaking fact, here is another thread to verify that, in this month, DPI has failed to address customer's concerns:



http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?920-The-DPI-parts-order

Here is a post where Josh himself boasts of deceiving DMCH:



http://www.dmctoday.com/showthread.php?928-DPI-s-Sphere-of-Influence-and-Profitability&p=18676&viewfull=1#post18676

I suppose that the part about Josh boasting about deceiving DMCH could be considered hearsay, but seeing as I heard it directly from Josh, wouldn't that make it a confession?

I did not have the chance to verify the information in my post as truthful, as it was deleted in minutes.

My post also advised AdmiralSenn to, instead, try contacting the folks at DMCMW as I've never had anything but positive interactions with them and am presently working on a laundry list of obscure parts to be picked up, ideally, sometime this fall.

Hearsay is an often confused term by those outside the legal profession.

Unless you're referring to something that happened directly to you, or something that you directly personally observed, it's legally considered to be hearsay.

The way in which you worded your initial comment with the qualifier "I've heard" suggested that your assertions may have been premised upon second hand information that you received from an uninvolved third party, which had that been the case, then I'd absolutely agree with their deletion, as such would have been hearsay, and hearsay is NEVER good evidence.

As you've been able to substantiate your original assertions with the evidence of posts from Josh himself, it's clear that what you meant when you used the qualifier "I've heard," was in regard to a direct personal observation that you had made, and NOT second hand information that you received from an uninvolved third party, as those accusing you of hearsay mistakenly believed.

Accordingly, there was no hearsay contained within your original post, and I for one apologize for supporting such a theory.

But please realize that those who did erroneously assert that your original post contained hearsay, myself included, did in fact make an honest mistake in misinterpreting your use of the qualifier "I've heard," as such is extremely easy to do.

I hope that clarified the hearsay issue, and again, I'm sorry that I insinuated such, but I was always skeptical of you using hearsay to prove anything, which is why I advocated that you should have been permitted the chance to either prove your assertions or voluntarily submit to having your post deleted if you were unable to.

Again, for the record - Chad's initial post contained no hearsay. Those who asserted otherwise did so because of a legitimate misinterpretation of the qualifier that Chad had used in his original post.

[Dracula]

I understand that my qualifier was not the best choice for the situation and led to some assumptions. I will change the way I bring information to the attention of others in the future to avoid such confusion.

I also appreciate the apology for the implication and that was what I wanted out of Tamir when I had approached him, yet he told me off and simply stated that I was wrong because it sounded like hearsay. Perhaps if the original post had remained, I would have had the chance to rectify the situation.

[NightFlyer]

Don't blame the vendor, blame the " sue happy jacked up blame everyone but yourself" legal system.

I fully agree with that, and expressly stated so over on the DPI thread.

But Josh counted with the comment that his concern wasn't about legal liability (which as I pointed out, a business is not liable if someone uses a product in a manner that the business didn't proscribe to (or reasonably anticipate and warn the consumer about - which BTW, I adamantly disagree with such legal precedent) upon selling them the product - that would be the purchaser's own fault), but rather with his reputation in the community should his products be used in projects that he hasn't personally approved of.

He was also concerned about customers misusing his products, and then in bad faith bitching about / blaming the product publicly instead of accepting personal responsibility for their own screw-ups. And while that's a valid concern, it's one that every business engaged in selling a product has to contend with.

How many times has Hervey, or DMCH, or other vendors' parts been blamed on the forums, when it was really the fault of the customer because of a bad/faulty installation of the part?

If Josh truly wants to avoid that, then the only logical solution would be is to exclusively provide his parts for in-house service only, and no external parts sales, period. Of course, that would kill a lot of his potential business prospects within the community, as many owners, such as myself, prefer to work on their own cars.

[Delorean Industries]

Feel free to contact directly at:
330 573 4129
or
[email protected]

[DMCVegas]

Not to jump in on this dog pile for the sake of being involved, but there is something that should be clarified for the community, or rather two things. And yes, there will be paragraphs for a quick backstory.

The first is the most important, and this is the practice of "blacklisting". Legal terms and dictionary definitions aside, let's use the context in which is has been use within the DeLorean community for the past 20 years or so. To be "blacklisted" by a vendor is the specifically be banned as a customer from said person's establishment. Specifically they will no longer sell you parts nor services. To be blunt, this is something that has terrified DeLorean owners since the day the original company folded.

Yes, DMCH along with many other vendors have done a great job at getting many replacement parts available for exhausted ones. However, it is also quite well known that they literally found massive stockpiles of of parts that were previously thought extinct when they finally inventoried the parts purchased from KPAC. These were parts that were last only seen at the original factory in Dunmurry, and only rediscovered decades later. We have many more parts NOW available for purchase than we did in the past, and that is something that was absolutely not the case back in the late 1990's. Back in the day, you NEEDED a vendor to help you track down those vital parts that were constantly dwindling to keep your car running, and you would be terrified of jeopardizing that relationship.

The 80's saw the birth, problems, and closing of many DeLorean vendors & repair centers that are long since gone. Information was also quite tightly controlled too. De Lorean World magazine was the only source for many people to ask questions outside of phoning up a service center. And that also was not an option in many cases. Even with my own car before I took possession of it the PO's surviving family members who wanted to sell the vehicle off, they hired a local mechanic to get the car back up and running. In fact, they went to two separate shops. By Don's own admission, GG refused to provide them with any technical support over the phone since the mechanics hadn't purchased parts from them, and they were taking a job away from him. His rates were higher, plus it was a 60 mile or so tow for the derelict car, and they were trying to save money. Now, yes, I can understand Don's position. Why after all should he subsidize a competing business with his knowledge with no profit for himself?

Again, it makes business sense, and I cannot fault the man for that. But these aren't Chevys and Fords we're talking about here. Not everyone can nor will work on them. Even in Las Vegas I had called up the local Volvo dealership asking if they serviced DeLoreans, and the man on the phone didn't just tell me no, but that if I ever showed up with that car they'd have security kick me off the property. And this was just a call to inquire about future service someplace I'd never even been to before. Even to this day, there are places that are fearful of our cars and will not work on them. However, if you lived in Southern California, you really only had two options for mechanic repair shops: DeLorean Motor Center, and DeLorean-One. I stopped by the shop personally and spoke with Millie, and her words to me were that they would either only maintain existing pristine cars, or sell me a restored one. I asked about purchasing my own car independently if I found a good deal, and then bringing the car to them for the mechanical work while I'd take care of the rest. She abruptly told me no, and then asked me to leave. That leaves DMCGG. So if you had a previously sour experience with them or perhaps only wished to take your DMC-12 to another shop with a shorter waiting list, you were SOL if they needed something from them. And if you had a technical question, you could really only write-in a letter to the DOA and hope that they would publish it and respond to it. We really take for granted now that we can post a question, let alone a photograph, to an online forum, and within minutes get an answer or suggestion instead of waiting months.

When the DML came about, one of the early items were lists of local owners nationwide that would be willing and able to lend a hand to others, and a global list of garages that both could and would work on our cars. It was compiled of mechanics that local DeLorean owners had experiences with and could vouch for. That was HUGE! That brought a great amount of freedom to our community that we hadn't seen since the original dealer network. And it was important too, because as it turned out we all started hearing from numerous people that DeLorean-One was starting to "blacklist" people. And we're not simply talking about people like me who had never done business with Ed Bernstein. There were very loyal clients that were being turned away for parts and service. That created a chilling effect that echoed throughout the community, and still does to this very day.

The second thing is this:


How many times has Hervey, or DMCH, or other vendors' parts been blamed on the forums, when it was really the fault of the customer because of a bad/faulty installation of the part?

That's a good point. I've had parts that I accidentally broke before, such as hollow bolts on the fuel lines because I over-torqued them. More recently I even think of the thread regarding Fuel Distributors where the eBay seller was called out negatively, but the person installing the unit didn't even set a baseline with the mixture screw to start the calibration of the fuel mixture.


When you have a issue with a vendor, it's best that you work things out with them in private first to try and resolve the issue, be it defective parts or even an improper installation. It may only be my opinion here, but I feel as though that is something that as a customer you owe to the vendor. Not only a certain amount of discretion, but the chance to set things right.

By the same token, I also feel that we should absolutely be able to communicate freely about our experiences with vendors. I myself have two who I prefer not to do business with. It really is beneficial to the community here as a whole. If a vendor doesn't quite accept our feedback one-on-one, sometimes it's beneficial for them to be called out so that they can realize that something needs to change. Sometimes if a new part is being sold and we all chip in our experiences, it lends to improvements and even replacements of said parts. When things like that happen, it benefits us all, and especially the vendors who can continue to improve their business rather than being shamed out of business. But also when I've shared my bad experiences in the past I've had with certain vendors, I've had people tell me they stopped using that person long ago for the same reasons. Gee, that's information that could have been useful for me, but again, people are terrified of the dreaded "blacklist" and refuse to speak publicly.

Of course that requires a certain amount of professionalism too in how one goes about reporting a negative experience. Stating X, Y, & Z and asking others if they have had similar experiences is a good start. Screaming that the vendor is evil incarnate and probably eats dead babies for breakfast or something really over the top, by contrast, may not be the best way to express your dissatisfaction. That is something that I can absolutely see the necessity for moderation over. Especially if we start up that pack mentality too and gang up on that vendor or person.

[DeLorean03]

So, I am going to make this short.

I have been gone for about a month - 8/2/2014 to yesterday. I enjoyed my time away from the forums. No drama, no needless whining, no hostility. I have been driving my car, enjoying my time off, and had not a care in the world with respect to the online community.

Then this weekend happened, and I realized that the forums need some help, and holy crap, the things some people get themselves so riled up over.

I understand no matter what I say, how I say it, whose opinions are heard or not heard, who says what, why what was said, and any other way anyone can twist my words around: we, the moderators and admins, cannot please everyone.

So I'll just say this:

We are taking back these forums.

The admins answer to Tamir. We run these forums how Tamir wants them run. He says the stunt show from this last weekend ends - then it is going to end.

This is a privately owned forum. No one pays any fees or costs to be here. The admins in charge were put in place for whatever reasons Tamir and other admins saw it fit for us to take this position.

I cannot stress this enough: the circus of jumping back and forth between forums and instigating frivolous battles is going to stop.

Some of you says you're done with DMCTalk - guess what - I'm going to help you with that commitment.

We welcome people to come over from DMCToday. We encourage it, but if you think you're going to hopscotch back and forth advertising DMCToday while picking fights with users and vendors here, well, I guess you won't be here very long.

We tried to let the forums police themselves. We tried to let things work themselves out. I watched 30+ pages of a VB Time Machine thread explode into a PR disaster. I had BOTH parties involved in that thread thank me for shutting it down; it got that bad. And that is just one example.

I have had vendors, DeLorean specialists, independent shops that work on DeLoreans, engine experts, and regular owners and admirers ALL PM me telling me what has been going on here. I have watched DMCH shy away from posting here, and I have had people informing me what a few instigators have been pulling here.

Let me send a clear message: I don't care who you are or what you know. If you're a problem and you're driving our users away, you will cease to exist here. I don't care if you know the workshop manual by heart and can explain everything on a DeLorean: your knowledge and expertise is useless if you're a rude jerk to this community.

Now, the recent situation with DPI: if a vendor asks you to stop antagonizing them - you need to stop it. When I am getting pinged by a business on a weekend, I know it's got to be a bad situation, and that's exactly what happened. Josh has cleared it up from his side, and both parties have said their piece. Some people here need to know when to stop. You can keep trying to have the last word all you want; it's not going to change the fact that sometimes you just can't win. There are 3 sides to any argument: one side, the other side, and the truth. NO ONE is going "to win" when trying to have their opinion be the truth and the last word. So please, show some respect for those that are trying to help keep your cars on the road. Criticism and feedback are one thing - being a heartless jerk and typing books about how you don't like "X" vendor are unnecessary.

These wild theories about collusion and paranoia of the admins working with DeLorean vendors is just - man - some people have no idea what they're talking about. Oh, and when Tamir comes to the forums and says "Enough." and some of you still push on over his word - no - not going to happen. His forums. His rules. Don't like it - leave.

I understand I am going to make some enemies with this post. Heck, I know I have enemies over at DMCToday already. I have had to learn the hard way that, being an admin, I can't please everyone. I have upset people in the past. I am going to upset some people here tonight. That comes with this position. I accept that.

I am genuinely sorry that the admins may have come across as "not caring" or not sticking up for the majority of our forum members here. We were trying our best to let things work themselves out, but now, it's become quite clear that can't always be the case.

Those who have been banned temporarily, it is just that: temporary. I'm not even going to try to explain why some people were banned and others weren't because as I stated earlier: no matter what I say, how I say it, and/or the reasoning and justifications I give, I'll be wrong so I'll leave you to decide if there was reasoning or if I just flipped a coin. I will say this: a ban didn't come from any one person. When we are getting complaints from nearly all cliques in this community, I have to ask myself: is it everyone or is it the lowest common denominator? That's one factor: the rest will not be discussed.

Now there's two ways this can go: some will "play the victim" and act like DMCTalk is against them. Others will realize "Hey, I don't pay a cent to be here. I think I'll stop being difficult and make solid contributions to this community and play nice with everyone." I would really like to see people play nice and enjoy their time here, but hey, DMCToday was made to be an alternative to DMCTalk. If you're going to be more trouble than helpful and be a difficult instigator, the admins will flush you out of here.

We've been nice. We've extended SO MANY chances and olive branches to people here. We tolerated what we could, and now it is time to end the trouble some people are causing.

I realize this will not be enough to appease some people, but hey, this is all I have to say.

Thank you to our regulars, DeLorean admirers, new owners, and long time owners who have been so patient and understanding with the escalating situations this year here at DMCTalk. We may not always do things perfectly, but we try to do what's best for the DMCTalk community as a whole.

[Mike C.]

Hello DMCTalk'ers. It's been a long time, almost a year since i stopped regularly visiting this site, but apparently NOT long enough.

A few words.

First, thank you to Chris Burns for keeping me up to date as to what has been going on in the interweb world of the DeLorean.

I am kind of shocked that for whatever reason (maybe shock value because I am an Administrator and helped revive this site) that in the opening lines of this letter to the DeLorean community my name was brought out in reference to a quote I made sarcastically almost a year and a half ago (i.e. lawnmower parts)... but then again I am not surprised.

For some reason, and I haven't figured this out yet, this one community with this particular car has a group of people (on both sides of each forum) that have a serious problem: LETTING IT GO.

The irony of a quote of mine being brought up is the person I was speaking about and I have NO ISSUES with each other to this day, and honestly if he showed up locally again, he and I were looking forward to just sitting back and shooting the breeze again. Any beefs I have had with persons in the community as a whole do not exist... yet some feel it necessary to go digging back and resurrecting things that were said LONG AGO and attempt to use them to stir the pot and get a point across. Why? Why can't you just let things go and MOVE ON with your lives? There is an amazing world out there away from a keyboard and monitor, and for a few of you I strongly suggest you give up trying to be King Moron of the E- Delorean world and spend more time outside in fresh air.

If you are still so hurt by or feel the need to resurrect a supposed insult or comedic reference I made on the interweb over a year ago, I strongly suggest you call a 1-800 support line and find persons that can help you learn how to let things go. We have all said things in jest that we do not expect to be taken literally, we have all hurled insults at persons, but lets be real... THIS ISN'T REAL LIFE... it's a FORUM. LET IT GO. I am not DMCTalk, i am a person behind a keyboard who is getting ready to plan a birthday party for my 3 year old niece. Posts made on this forum, ALL posts, are done by people, popular or not. I as a person type my messages, and I as a person get to choose what I do and when I do it. The website doesn't dictate my opinion. Unless DMCTalk is suddenly paying my mortgage, bills, and for my mom's healthcare, I am just another guy sitting behind a keyboard like all of you. The difference is, I knew when it was time to just give up the frustration, give up the bickering, give up the he said/they said bull that ruined my interest in the car in the first place. Instead of typing multiple long ass posts on every negative thread, I just LET IT GO and walked away. It's nice being away.

I'm so glad my old, very obsolete quote was brought up. In the future, if some of you wish to quote me, please use any off the following list of gems I have come up with for whatever scenario:

- Be kind and loving to your parents. Remember all the things they have done for you as children. One day it will be your turn to care for them, and no matter how much they frustrate you, it is your responsibility to care for them at any cost to you.
- Adopt pets from local shelters. It's not fair that these animals were born into their situation, but it is kind of you to give them a loving home.
- a Carburetor on a delorean is a GREAT way to get a car running and driving, no matter what you all say my opinion is. I've never had an issue with carburetors on deloreans and I wish they'd keep more cars on the road if necessary.
- Take care of your back and your knees. Once they are gone, you are going to miss them.
- Take time to travel. Don't pool all of your money and time into an item sitting in your garage. Go see the world. There is so much beauty outside the interweb that can take away the stress of a mundane, boring life. Get a passport and use it.
- Don't be ashamed to use coupons. People seem to have forgotten that pennies add up to dollars. I saw a young lady at a restaurant sneer at her date because he pulled out a coupon. She actually was very vocal and embarrassed him to which I felt it necessary to interrupt and say that she sure didn't mind how her expensive food tasted before the bill came. You could tell he appreciated it.
- Help people. Don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves and help a person do something on your day off. Beats sitting on the internet reading drama.
- SAVE MONEY. Invest your 401k wisely. Seek a financial adviser. Years are going by faster and the only one you need to make sure that's going to take care of you is YOU.
- Donate your time. This world is screwed up. Help some screwed up kids realize the world isn't as bleak as it really is by spending time with them.
- Stop caring about what other people think, and do what you want for you. Good luck with that with alot of people in this group.
- Congrats to Chad for buying another DeLorean in an attempt to keep another one on the road. I hope he pulls it off.
- Keep in contact with your friends. Sometimes their lives are so screwed up that they may need YOU to call them and check on them once in a while.
- Let it go, let it go.... the cold never bothered me anyway. (sorry, spending too much time with the kids. Just LET IT GO).

And with that, I return to my self imposed retirement from the E-Delorean world (at least on this continent).

I still wish you all the very best, and if any of you are in my neck of the woods and need assistance, please feel free to let me know. Now I'm off to help an almost 3 year old have a special day and feel like the princess she is.

Take care, keep on restoring those cars.


-Mike

[Nicholas R]

I have had vendors, DeLorean specialists, independent shops that work on DeLoreans, engine experts, and regular owners and admirers ALL PM me telling me what has been going on here. I have watched DMCH shy away from posting here, and I have had people informing me what a few instigators have been pulling here.


Personally, the fact that the vendors and specialists come here to post, communicate, and interact with the owners is one of the #1 reasons why I come to this forum. You cannot put a price or value on that kind of knowledge and service. Have you ever been to other car forums where the vendors are only there because they sponsor the forums? It's a totally different attitude. The LS forum is like that. Nonstop plugs and ads for their parts all over the place, and the people actually posting dont know jack about LS engines; they're just there to sell parts (and they're allowed to constantly plug because they're paying to be there). I love that this forum does NOT have that, and that these people are truly here to help, and they know their stuff. I would hate for these individuals to be being driven from the forums, or decide to stop coming here because they feel it's a hostile environment.

I'm not saying the vendors need to be babied, but I also dont think we should create an environment where they need to feel their going to be attacked. In my opinion, when the knowledge of people like DMCMW Dave, DMCNW Toby, SEO Motorsports, DMCH James, DPI Josh, DMCUK Martin, DMCEU ED, and many others leaves the forum, the overall value and use of the forum is going drop significantly. That's when I'm going leave.

Thank you DeLorean03 for being open an honest about how and why the decisions are made here.

Hope everyone is having a good labor day weekend!! Get out there and drive your cars!!! :thumbup: :burnout:

[wnorris89]

my name was brought out in reference to a quote I made sarcastically almost a year and a half ago (i.e. lawnmower parts)... but then again I am not surprised.

I thought the comment was pretty funny. I even changed my signature on that other forum to say something about lawn mower parts. When I get around to it I am going to install a lawn mower solenoid on my car in place of a much needed horn relay. Some people really need to lighten up and not take things so personal. There is this thing called humor. Laugh a little, you might live longer.




The irony of a quote of mine being brought up is the person I was speaking about and I have NO ISSUES with each other to this day, and honestly if he showed up locally again, he and I were looking forward to just sitting back and shooting the breeze again.

Mike pretty much summed it up right there. I've got no problems with him either. We had a really nice phone conversation about a year ago where he even offered to get me back on DMCTalk. I politely refused reminding him that it was pointless because I would just end up pissing someone off again and that he would have more people crying to ban me.

I'm sure we will have a good time shooting the bull next time we are around each other. I just hope I can make it to another one of Decker's tech days sometime soon. That is the last place I saw Mike.



- Be kind and loving to your parents. Remember all the things they have done for you as children. One day it will be your turn to care for them, and no matter how much they frustrate you, it is your responsibility to care for them at any cost to you.
- Adopt pets from local shelters. It's not fair that these animals were born into their situation, but it is kind of you to give them a loving home.
- a Carburetor on a delorean is a GREAT way to get a car running and driving, no matter what you all say my opinion is. I've never had an issue with carburetors on deloreans and I wish they'd keep more cars on the road if necessary.
- Take care of your back and your knees. Once they are gone, you are going to miss them.
- Take time to travel. Don't pool all of your money and time into an item sitting in your garage. Go see the world. There is so much beauty outside the interweb that can take away the stress of a mundane, boring life. Get a passport and use it.
- Don't be ashamed to use coupons. People seem to have forgotten that pennies add up to dollars. I saw a young lady at a restaurant sneer at her date because he pulled out a coupon. She actually was very vocal and embarrassed him to which I felt it necessary to interrupt and say that she sure didn't mind how her expensive food tasted before the bill came. You could tell he appreciated it.
- Help people. Don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves and help a person do something on your day off. Beats sitting on the internet reading drama.
- SAVE MONEY. Invest your 401k wisely. Seek a financial adviser. Years are going by faster and the only one you need to make sure that's going to take care of you is YOU.
- Donate your time. This world is screwed up. Help some screwed up kids realize the world isn't as bleak as it really is by spending time with them.
- Stop caring about what other people think, and do what you want for you. Good luck with that with alot of people in this group.
- Congrats to Chad for buying another DeLorean in an attempt to keep another one on the road. I hope he pulls it off.
- Keep in contact with your friends. Sometimes their lives are so screwed up that they may need YOU to call them and check on them once in a while.
- Let it go, let it go.... the cold never bothered me anyway. (sorry, spending too much time with the kids. Just LET IT GO).


Crap. He just wrote my entire life philosophy stuff. I'm not sure if I wrote that sentence correctly since I'm white Louisiana trash but yeah, I pretty much do everything he said. In fact, me and my lovely foreign wife (whom I met while traveling the planet) are planning to adopt an animal from the local shelter as we speak.

If you want to be happy in life, take the advice that Mike just said. He pretty much hit everything spot on. Great post Mike. I don't think anyone could have written it better.


Moderators, you now have my permission to ban me.

-Steve Rice
#16510

[Lou and "Boo"]

Here here Steve !

I thought I was supposed to be on that DPI blacklist. I'm insulted. ;)

[Dracula]

On the behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves here:


Regarding the responses to my open letter over on Talk from Jeremiah and Mike as I obviously can't respond over there because of my banning.

In response to Jeremiah:

1) In his reply to me, Tamir never mentioned anything about my posts being out of line or me being a problem, nor did he state that anything that I was doing was out of line, unacceptable, or in violation of the forum rules. In fact, he told me that he was going to investigate it because he said that I was right - that posts shouldn't be deleted without an explanation being offered. So either Tamir LIED to me and told you something completely different, or he lied to you regarding his feeling towards me. Either way, if that's the way that you guys are going to be, then I don't want to participate with either of you anymore, as I have dignity, class, and respect for others and myself, thank you very much. I should have posted Tamir's reply to me on Today as Chad did so that you guys couldn't play games with it as you're now attempting to do to make me look like the bad guy.

2) Thanks for proving my point about collusion - you immediately responded to and deleted posts for DPI Josh that were completely relevant, but couldn't offer Chad or I an explanation of why it was done??? This is especially ironic seeing as how my post was proven to be essentially 100% correct after the fact. And yet, you still don't see how that looks like collusion- ugh, I'm shaking my head here in disbelief. Like DMCVegas said in his response to my open letter regarding blacklisting, by doing what you did, you're sending a message to all that only positive reviews regarding DPI will be tolerated on Talk. Oh yeah, but feel free to bash Hervey, DMCH improved/re-manufactured products, etc all you want over there without fear of repercussion. And why is that - oh probably because Hervey doesn't participate there and DMCH really does except to announce a new product or service, as they have better things to do with their time than to monitor the forums and complain when a member says something bad about how they conducted themselves in a transaction. The only time the admins/mods seem to respond is when someone complains. And instead of telling the complainer to just add people that annoy them to their ignore list, which is really easy to do, you go after people like me just because we don't mind drama and don't complain about things that happen on the forum, because we're actually adults and can have respectful and objective conversations about controversial issues - heaven forbid. Again, if that's the way you guys are going to be about it, then I don't want to participate with you, as I value open discussion, even if it creates some drama, as guess what, drama happens in real life, it's unavoidable - and those who don't like it can choose not to read it.

3) So, a lot of people complained about me to you, eh? Why couldn't they tell me themselves that they had a problem with me, as Robert did? I give him credit for at least having the balls to tell me that he didn't like me directly to me instead of running to one of you guys and complaining about me - that's commendable. And WHY do people such as VideoBob, Adam Kontras and DPI Josh post their problems on a forum that proclaims itself to be a place for discussion, if they get pissed when people such as myself jump in and actually engage in discussing the problem that's going on? If that's unacceptable behavior and trouble-making, then perhaps you guys should have an express rule about it - something like this:

'No interjecting in other people's disputes because we're adverse to drama here because many of our members apparently have others holding guns to their heads and force them to read everything that's posted on the forum, and such members with guns to their heads don't like reading anything drama related, so instead of promoting open discussion (as is proclaimed by the site in the header/splash screen) we're going to curtail to the desires of those members with guns to their heads and impose this rule, because not only do the members with guns to their heads not like drama, but they also like to complain to the admins/mods like whiny little children.'

Had you done that, I don't think that you ever would have had a problem with me. Of course, if VB, Adam K, DPI Josh, and others didn't like my always objective interjections, then why didn't they just handle their issues via PM or some other venue instead of via a public forum???? This makes no logical/rational sense.

But at least everyone is clear now - DMCTalk is a place to expose your issues with someone else, but that's the extent of it. Any discussion beyond that and you're exposing yourself to being banned. Of course, attacking Chad on his for sale thread and other such behaviors are tolerated, so I guess that this only applies to member who actually complain to the admins/mods about their feelings being hurt by someone else, as opposed to people like Chad and myself who are secure enough in their own righteousness that they wade through such attacks without seeing the need to complain to the admins/mods when someone else hurts their feelings.

Question though - what's so hard in telling those who complain to the admins/mods to use their ignore buttons on members that they don't like? Honestly - I don't get it. Can someone please explain this???

But you know what, that's fine - if that's the kind of forum that you guys want to have over there, then I don't want to participate in such.

But I do want people to see the truth about it.

In response to Mike:

Bullshit that your comment was originally meant to be sarcastic - LIAR. It was originally meant to be insultive and hurtful and you know it. It only later turned into something sarcastic after further communications between the parties, on DMCToday might I add, because Talk wouldn't allow any of that kind of nonsense on its forum, brought you, Steve, and Bill closer together to the point where you were extending olive branches to one another.

But to suggest that your comment was originally meant to be sarcastic - sorry bud, but you're an outright LIAR. And to base your entire comment on such is just absolutely incredible IMHO.

Your plea is to let it go, but obviously you yourself couldn't let it go enough to keep yourself from posting the diatribe that that you did. Of course, that's easy to do when you know that the person that you direct such a comment to can't respond because they're banned.

Again, if that's the way that you guys want to be, then I don't want to participate with you and your forum.

Good day to both of you gentleman.

[DeLorean03]

That's why Chad continues to have a voice here: Chad has a level head with a calm attitude. That's why you were given the opportunity to be the voice for those who don't have one here.

Steve, I don't have an issue with you. You and I cleared that up face to face at DMCMW's open house. Never have had an issue with you, and I still don't. You and Chad I like. I genuinely don't want to ban you; I don't feel a need to do so.

Now, let's all take a breath and step back. We're not letting up on this position.

I am not getting into a back and forth discussion with people through Chad. The ban ends in 6 days; you can talk to me here at DMCTalk when the ban lifts. You want to play the "take my toys and go home" attitude - be the victim.

As far as drama and real-life - that reminds me of a story. I went to Home Depot in the DeLorean and parked in my spot. I had this rusted out, beat to heck Chevy truck back up in front of me to get in the parking spot right in front of me. It was so close, I actually stood at the front bumper of my car and told him "whoa, that's good there." As the driver got out, I said "wow, cutting it pretty close there, eh chief?" to which he responded "You got insurance on it, right?" to which I quipped "Doesn't meant I want to have to use it...."

Point is: I don't need unnecessary drama. The DMCTalk community is beyond tired of the needless drama. We come to the forums to interact with each other and share information, stories, and enjoy each other's company. When I dread coming to these forums, there's a problem. I am not the problem. The vendors are not the problem. The majority of this community is not the problem.

[Mike C.]

On the behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves here:

In response to Mike:

Bullshit that your comment was originally meant to be sarcastic - LIAR. It was originally meant to be insultive and hurtful and you know it. It only later turned into something sarcastic after further communications between the parties, on DMCToday might I add, because Talk wouldn't allow any of that kind of nonsense on its forum, brought you, Steve, and Bill closer together to the point where you were extending olive branches to one another.

But to suggest that your comment was originally meant to be sarcastic - sorry bud, but you're an outright LIAR. And to base your entire comment on such is just absolutely incredible IMHO.

Your plea is to let it go, but obviously you yourself couldn't let it go enough to keep yourself from posting the diatribe that that you did. Of course, that's easy to do when you know that the person that you direct such a comment to can't respond because they're banned.

Again, if that's the way that you guys want to be, then I don't want to participate with you and your forum.

Good day to both of you gentleman.

I went to DMCToday because it's my choice to post over there and SPEAK to those who could not post over here. I offered an olive branch to Bill and Steve, which is none of your business. That was between those gentlemen and myself. Between all the hearsay and whatnots, I didn't want any animosity between us over crap that was being dragged out... like my comment I made about Steve.

The irony is, even Steve posted on here about he and I squashing our differences, yet you feel it is your duty to call me a LIAR, in a situation in which you were not even part of. Were you on the hour + phone conversation between steve and I? Because I really don't remember you there when I apologized and he apologized and we left everything at the door.

So you can hold whatever opinion you want of me, Chad. Because it's just that... YOUR opinion. When it comes down to it, you are posting negative stuff to try to start more crap. I wish you luck with your new car, and have a nice life.


Parties involved have let it go, yet you stick your nose in where it wasn't at to begin with.

It's not nice to call people names, Chad. I hope you grow out of that some day... and yes, let it go.

[Dangermouse]

Guys, that long post was Nightflyers words, not Chads.

Chad just copied and pasted NF post from DMCToday

[Mike C.]

Guys, that long post was Nightflyers words, not Chads.

Chad just copied and pasted NF post from DMCToday

Thank u Dangermouse for clearing that up. Sorry to bring ur name into this Chad. Didnt understand the post. But to you, nightflyer, same message. It didnt involve u, Steve and I are fine, deal with your own issues.

Steve- congratulations on the nuptuals! I hadnt heard.

[Dracula]

I went to DMCToday because it's my choice to post over there and SPEAK to those who could not post over here. I offered an olive branch to Bill and Steve, which is none of your business. That was between those gentlemen and myself. Between all the hearsay and whatnots, I didn't want any animosity between us over crap that was being dragged out... like my comment I made about Steve.

The irony is, even Steve posted on here about he and I squashing our differences, yet you feel it is your duty to call me a LIAR, in a situation in which you were not even part of. Were you on the hour + phone conversation between steve and I? Because I really don't remember you there when I apologized and he apologized and we left everything at the door.

So you can hold whatever opinion you want of me, Chad. Because it's just that... YOUR opinion. When it comes down to it, you are posting negative stuff to try to start more crap. I wish you luck with your new car, and have a nice life.


Parties involved have let it go, yet you stick your nose in where it wasn't at to begin with.

It's not nice to call people names, Chad. I hope you grow out of that some day... and yes, let it go.

Mike,

That is Josh S's reply, not mine. As I said on DMCToday in response to posting it. I can't stand when those in power wield it unjustly and use it to silence their opposition. Just as I took offense to Tamir's discrediting comments and locking of the thread; I view that as slanderous defamation. I won't stand for that when it happens to me or others and posted Josh S's reply because it was what I feel to be right.

[Dracula]

Thank u Dangermouse for clearing that up. Sorry to bring ur name into this Chad. Didnt understand the post. But to you, nightflyer, same message. It didnt involve u, Steve and I are fine, deal with your own issues.

Steve- congratulations on the nuptuals! I hadnt heard.

No problem there. It gave me a chance to explain why I posted it.

[Mike C.]

Mike,

That is Josh S's reply, not mine. As I said on DMCToday in response to posting it. I can't stand when those in power wield it unjustly and use it to silence their opposition. Just as I took offense to Tamir's discrediting comments and locking of the thread; I view that as slanderous defamation. I won't stand for that when it happens to me or others and posted Josh S's reply because it was what I feel to be right.

Understood. Again, sorry for misunderstanding the post. Im sitting by the splashpad with the kids trying to respond on my phone.

[Dracula]

This is another reply from Josh S.
(AKA NightFlier)

Regarding further responses to my open letter over on Talk from Jeremiah and Mike as I obviously can't respond over there because of my banning.


Point is: I don't need unnecessary drama. The DMCTalk community is beyond tired of the needless drama. We come to the forums to interact with each other and share information, stories, and enjoy each other's company. When I dread coming to these forums, there's a problem. I am not the problem. The vendors are not the problem. The majority of this community is not the problem.

First off, I want to say that I hope you know that I think you're a really good guy, and that nothing that I'm posting in regards to the situation is meant to be taken personally. I'm merely addressing the actions that occurred.

Second, if you don't want unnecessary drama, then why did you allow Adam Kontras to post his complaint about VideoBob when you knew that VideoBob would respond to it in an adversarial fashion, such as he did? Why do you allow people to post comments about negative experiences with DPI when you know that DPI Josh is going to complain about such and respond to it in an adversarial fashion, such as he does? Why not just ban all that kind of stuff all together if you don't want it on the forum?

The only reason I interjected is because the forum claims to be a place for discussion. You're saying that you don't want those kinds of discussions, but yet, you allow them to form and take place, but then only punish certain people for being engaged in them instead of everyone who was engaged in them. It makes NO logical/rational sense. Either institute a ban against drama all together, or allow it play out and tell those who don't like it to use their ignore buttons - again, what's so hard about that? And where's the problem so long as it's not spilling over into other threads?

Otherwise, what's the standard that you're attempting to impose over there, as I've always respected and tried to conduct myself within the confines of the posted rules. The only reason I got and continue to get into trouble on Talk is because 1) there isn't an express standard, and 2) because others complain about me because they apparently don't know how to ignore me.

I really don't want to be the guy that packs up his toys and leaves, but gosh darned it all, I've been asking for a bright line express rule since Ron, and you guys have never provided such, thus I still don't know what it is that I did that was so wrong that warranted my banning.

This is my final plea - please explain why I was banned. If your only reason is because I somehow caused unnecessary drama, but you can't explain how exactly I did that, then it's clearly a wholly subjective and personal standard that you're attempting to impose on Talk, and sorry, but I don't play those kind of games, as they're not fair to everyone.


The irony is, even Steve posted on here about he and I squashing our differences, yet you feel it is your duty to call me a LIAR, in a situation in which you were not even part of.

LIE - The comment in which you made the initial remarks about DMCToday and it's membership was in a thread that I posted over on Talk about a new forum and in a direct response to a post that I had made on that thread, thus I was in fact directly involved.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7528-New-Forum-DMCToday-com&p=110479&viewfull=1#post110479

Members can read it for themselves and decide what your original intent was, but my reading of both it and the subsequent aftermath on both forums are that the initial remarks were meant to be disparaging and hurtful, and not sarcastic as you attempted to claim.

I never denied that you guys buried the hatchet after the fact, thus not sure why you're re-hashing that yet again. The only thing I contested was your assertion that you originally meant the remarks to be sarcastic, which you clearly did NOT but are still attempting to lie about - why, I honestly don't have a clue.

But you're right as far as such not really mattering.

I just don't like it when people attempt to stand/rest upon lies, call it a pet peeve, but it goes to my sense of justice - must be the way my parents raised me.


Because I really don't remember you there when I apologized and he apologized and we left everything at the door.

If the remarks were only sarcastic, as you claimed, then why would there have been any need for you to apologize? Confused and puzzled by this....


It's not nice to call people names,

First off, I'm Josh, NOT Chad.

Second, the only thing I called you was a liar because you clearly lied, via your own self admission wherein you expressed the need for you to apologize, and via the objective evidence for all to see and interpret for themselves.

If you don't like being called a liar, than please, don't lie - pretty simple, yes?

Again, I agree with you that such really doesn't matter and shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone, but that alone doesn't change the rest of the objective facts, does it?

Otherwise, I agreed with both your and Steve's assessment of the situation, thus, I'm really not sure why you're as upset as you appear to be.....????

[Mike C.]

This is another reply from Josh S.
(AKA NightFlier)

Regarding further responses to my open letter over on Talk from Jeremiah and Mike as I obviously can't respond over there because of my banning.



First off, I want to say that I hope you know that I think you're a really good guy, and that nothing that I'm posting in regards to the situation is meant to be taken personally. I'm merely addressing the actions that occurred.

Second, if you don't want unnecessary drama, then why did you allow Adam Kontras to post his complaint about VideoBob when you knew that VideoBob would respond to it in an adversarial fashion, such as he did? Why do you allow people to post comments about negative experiences with DPI when you know that DPI Josh is going to complain about such and respond to it in an adversarial fashion, such as he does? Why not just ban all that kind of stuff all together if you don't want it on the forum?

The only reason I interjected is because the forum claims to be a place for discussion. You're saying that you don't want those kinds of discussions, but yet, you allow them to form and take place, but then only punish certain people for being engaged in them instead of everyone who was engaged in them. It makes NO logical/rational sense. Either institute a ban against drama all together, or allow it play out and tell those who don't like it to use their ignore buttons - again, what's so hard about that? And where's the problem so long as it's not spilling over into other threads?

Otherwise, what's the standard that you're attempting to impose over there, as I've always respected and tried to conduct myself within the confines of the posted rules. The only reason I got and continue to get into trouble on Talk is because 1) there isn't an express standard, and 2) because others complain about me because they apparently don't know how to ignore me.

I really don't want to be the guy that packs up his toys and leaves, but gosh darned it all, I've been asking for a bright line express rule since Ron, and you guys have never provided such, thus I still don't know what it is that I did that was so wrong that warranted my banning.

This is my final plea - please explain why I was banned. If your only reason is because I somehow caused unnecessary drama, but you can't explain how exactly I did that, then it's clearly a wholly subjective and personal standard that you're attempting to impose on Talk, and sorry, but I don't play those kind of games, as they're not fair to everyone.



LIE - The comment in which you made the initial remarks about DMCToday and it's membership was in a thread that I posted over on Talk about a new forum and in a direct response to a post that I had made on that thread, thus I was in fact directly involved.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7528-New-Forum-DMCToday-com&p=110479&viewfull=1#post110479

Members can read it for themselves and decide what your original intent was, but my reading of both it and the subsequent aftermath on both forums are that the initial remarks were meant to be disparaging and hurtful, and not sarcastic as you attempted to claim.

I never denied that you guys buried the hatchet after the fact, thus not sure why you're re-hashing that yet again. The only thing I contested was your assertion that you originally meant the remarks to be sarcastic, which you clearly did NOT but are still attempting to lie about - why, I honestly don't have a clue.

But you're right as far as such not really mattering.

I just don't like it when people attempt to stand/rest upon lies, call it a pet peeve, but it goes to my sense of justice - must be the way my parents raised me.



If the remarks were only sarcastic, as you claimed, then why would there have been any need for you to apologize? Confused and puzzled by this....



First off, I'm Josh, NOT Chad.

Second, the only thing I called you was a liar because you clearly lied, via your own self admission wherein you expressed the need for you to apologize, and via the objective evidence for all to see and interpret for themselves.

If you don't like being called a liar, than please, don't lie - pretty simple, yes?

Again, I agree with you that such really doesn't matter and shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone, but that alone doesn't change the rest of the objective facts, does it?

Otherwise, I agreed with both your and Steve's assessment of the situation, thus, I'm really not sure why you're as upset as you appear to be.....????

I guess if it wasnt sarcastic, you are all supporting nigerian lottery tickets and fake seiko watches :rolleyes:
I guess all the tech advice youve dished out required john deere parts. No, not at all. Sarcastic, snarky remark. Interpret it however you may wish, im done.

[Kane]

What is the point of banning Nightflyer if his cronies just post for him?

Nightflyer, follow through on your threat to leave Talk. Or are you worried you wouldn't be able to pretend to be as much of a victim than if you are perma banned?


And why can't Today exist without depending on Talk? You get banned here so you go over there to complain about it? Today couldn't function if they couldn't complain about Talk (or Obama) anymore.


It's sad.

[David T]

Anyone who is banned got themselves banned so don't blame the moderators. They are only enforcing the rules which, if you use common sense, are easy to follow. If you insist on causing controversy and don't stop after being warned you only have yourself to blame. Even if you are banned, you can still view, you just can't post. If others choose to post for the banned person they are also at risk of being banned. The rules are for the common good of the whole community which has to take precedence over any individual's freedom of speech to yell FIRE in a crowded room.

[Soundkillr]

What is the point of banning Nightflyer if his cronies just post for him?

Nightflyer, follow through on your threat to leave Talk. Or are you worried you wouldn't be able to pretend to be as much of a victim than if you are perma banned?


And why can't Today exist without depending on Talk? You get banned here so you go over there to complain about it? Today couldn't function if they couldn't complain about Talk (or Obama) anymore.


It's sad.

I agree with this. To all others, LET IT GO. If nightflyer decides to come back, let this crap go, or dont come back.

[DeLorean03]

Here's the thing with talking this whole thing out: it doesn't matter what Mike, Sound, or I say - Nightflyer - you're not going to be pleased nor content with any reasoning we give.

I like you, Nightflyer, as a fellow owner and human being. Online, man, I don't know you.

There will be no more relaying information through Chad or anyone else.

Chad, I will ask you now on behalf of the mods and admins: please do not relay any more responses from anyone at DMCToday over here. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but this is doing nothing now but beating a dead horse.

Any further "middleman" discussion will result in more bans.

Just for the record: admins answer to Tamir. We don't have to explain anything to anyone.

Trust me, we have received some solid praise for this. People are fed up with the drama and the antics.

You guys made DMCToday as an alternative for DMCTalk. Well, it's your alternative for another 5.5 days.

[Rich_NYS]

Most of you know I'm "Team Josh," but that doesn't stop me from being objective.

Josh is an asset to the community. I just read a post where a guy overseas is upside-down on a DeLorean purchase on day one; I feel bad for that guy, and immediately recalled my purchase earlier this year where I was able to get a great assessment on a car with the help of guys like Jeremiah, Jonathan and Josh.

I get what is being said about drama & all that; I don't like pissy-pants BS and notice that you never see me starting shit here (and I like to start shit,) but I think anyone who'd rather see Josh off the forum permanently is just being a dick.

I agree he needs to understand the field he's playing on, but at the same time anyone who doesn't want to read his arms-length responses can/should just ignore them. I personally like more excitement than everyone just making nice all the time, but I might be the unsilent minority and I do understand the field I'm playing on.....here, and over on Today.

[Ron]

I thought the comment was pretty funny. I even changed my signature on that other forum to say something about lawn mower parts. When I get around to it I am going to install a lawn mower solenoid on my car in place of a much needed horn relay. Some people really need to lighten up and not take things so personal. There is this thing called humor. Laugh a little, you might live longer.




Mike pretty much summed it up right there. I've got no problems with him either. We had a really nice phone conversation about a year ago where he even offered to get me back on DMCTalk. I politely refused reminding him that it was pointless because I would just end up pissing someone off again and that he would have more people crying to ban me.

I'm sure we will have a good time shooting the bull next time we are around each other. I just hope I can make it to another one of Decker's tech days sometime soon. That is the last place I saw Mike.



Crap. He just wrote my entire life philosophy stuff. I'm not sure if I wrote that sentence correctly since I'm white Louisiana trash but yeah, I pretty much do everything he said. In fact, me and my lovely foreign wife (whom I met while traveling the planet) are planning to adopt an animal from the local shelter as we speak.

If you want to be happy in life, take the advice that Mike just said. He pretty much hit everything spot on. Great post Mike. I don't think anyone could have written it better.


Moderators, you now have my permission to ban me.

-Steve Rice
#16510Steve SUCKS

[Ron]

Most of you know I'm "Team Josh," but that doesn't stop me from being objective.

Josh is an asset to the community. I just read a post where a guy overseas is upside-down on a DeLorean purchase on day one; I feel bad for that guy, and immediately recalled my purchase earlier this year where I was able to get a great assessment on a car with the help of guys like Jeremiah, Jonathan and Josh.

I get what is being said about drama & all that; I don't like pissy-pants BS and notice that you never see me starting shit here (and I like to start shit,) but I think anyone who'd rather see Josh off the forum permanently is just being a dick.

I agree he needs to understand the field he's playing on, but at the same time anyone who doesn't want to read his arms-length responses can/should just ignore them. I personally like more excitement than everyone just making nice all the time, but I might be the unsilent minority and I do understand the field I'm playing on.....here, and over on Today.+1 (minus "Team Josh";-)

[Farrar]

I for one welcome heavier moderation. I'm all for online socializing, but there's a time and a place -- I've seen so many thread derailments on both forums it's ridiculous. I'll search for information on something, and I will see two or three on-topic posts, followed by pages of godknowswhat, and months later, oh, wait, did that question ever get answered? And people keep saying the same stuff over and over in different threads. It's like DMC Tourette's. (No offense if you have Tourette's syndrome. It's just the best analogy I could think of.) Meanwhile, one forum user paints the other forum's users with a broad brush, and vice versa. It goes on and on and eventually we all end up looking to outsiders like a bunch of angry teenagers. I am a user of both forums, but I find myself equally uncomfortable on each, as I read people posting things like "all the people over on DMC______ are just _______ and can go screw themselves," or "take that crap over to DMC_____ where it belongs."

Anyway, other folks in this thread have said it better than I have. But I nonetheless wanted to add my drop to the bucket and say that I look forward to the return of civility. Thanks to the moderators in advance for doing their best to bring it back. It amazes me that you volunteer for this. :)

Peace out.

[Alan]

I for one welcome heavier moderation. I'm all for online socializing, but there's a time and a place -- I've seen so many thread derailments on both forums it's ridiculous. I'll search for information on something, and I will see two or three on-topic posts, followed by pages of godknowswhat, and months later, oh, wait, did that question ever get answered? And people keep saying the same stuff over and over in different threads. It's like DMC Tourette's. (No offense if you have Tourette's syndrome. It's just the best analogy I could think of.) Meanwhile, one forum user paints the other forum's users with a broad brush, and vice versa. It goes on and on and eventually we all end up looking to outsiders like a bunch of angry teenagers. I am a user of both forums, but I find myself equally uncomfortable on each, as I read people posting things like "all the people over on DMC______ are just _______ and can go screw themselves," or "take that crap over to DMC_____ where it belongs."

Anyway, other folks in this thread have said it better than I have. But I nonetheless wanted to add my drop to the bucket and say that I look forward to the return of civility. Thanks to the moderators in advance for doing their best to bring it back. It amazes me that you volunteer for this. :)

Peace out.

+1

(you said it very well as far as I'm concerned)

[Ron]

+2

[DashEight]

I for one welcome heavier moderation.

Peace out.

This is about right. :cheers: Well said. Keep it simple and keep it DeLorean.-P

[Lou and "Boo"]

Keep it Delorean? Then why does the main page say this?

"Welcome to DMCTalk.org: an open forum dedicated to the discussion and debate about our beloved sports car the DeLorean, its maker, and anything interesting in-between. Registration is free, and by doing so you get to post and participate in the discussion and view any attachments. Since this is an open forum, not all views expressed by its participants are shared by the owners and moderators of the forum. Enjoy the forum everyone! "

That's hypocritical for sure! Maybe that should be changed to say "only Delorean talk and moderator approved talk allowed here" surely not "anything interesting in between"
That's just outright lies.

[Kane]

Your definition of "interesting" is subjective.

But it does say something that Lou shows up here again after swearing off this forum forever. You just can't resist this place, can ya?

[Soundkillr]

Keep it Delorean? Then why does the main page say this?

"Welcome to DMCTalk.org: an open forum dedicated to the discussion and debate about our beloved sports car the DeLorean, its maker, and anything interesting in-between. Registration is free, and by doing so you get to post and participate in the discussion and view any attachments. Since this is an open forum, not all views expressed by its participants are shared by the owners and moderators of the forum. Enjoy the forum everyone! "

That's hypocritical for sure! Maybe that should be changed to say "only Delorean talk and moderator approved talk allowed here" surely not "anything interesting in between"
That's just outright lies.

Lou, its "anything interesting in between" that becomes an issue when its a bunch of victimized bitching, or constant call outs or drama. We are trying to clean this place up. I just dont understand why some people have such a hard time with this. You have a few options, play drama free like 95% of everyone on here, or leave. You are not forced to be here. Again if you have a problem with the way things are done, find a new place to be....

[Lou and "Boo"]

Just inquiring about the lies presented on the main page Mr. Killer
Maybe a truthful statement should be displayed, that's all.

[Lou and "Boo"]

Your definition of "interesting" is subjective.

But it does say something that Lou shows up here again after swearing off this forum forever. You just can't resist this place, can ya?

I came back on to sell some of my Delorean stuff. What I'm doing is Delorean related, no? Not that I couldn't resist. BTW:
The people that made me "swear this place off" are the ones who should be banned. Not me. But I know how it is around here. ;)

[DeLorean03]

Keep it Delorean? Then why does the main page say this?

"Welcome to DMCTalk.org: an open forum dedicated to the discussion and debate about our beloved sports car the DeLorean, its maker, and anything interesting in-between. Registration is free, and by doing so you get to post and participate in the discussion and view any attachments. Since this is an open forum, not all views expressed by its participants are shared by the owners and moderators of the forum. Enjoy the forum everyone! "

That's hypocritical for sure! Maybe that should be changed to say "only Delorean talk and moderator approved talk allowed here" surely not "anything interesting in between"
That's just outright lies.

We could update it to read: "Keep your bullshit drama out of here." Sorry, but the needless drama a select few have caused was NOT interesting to me and many others.

I am going to say this clearly: the days of people making needless drama are over. You have the other forum - park your ass there if you don't like how things are about to be here.

It's clear both publicly and privately that the majority of those who care to state their opinions on this are very pleased that a sense of civility is returning here.

We tried to let people be adults. We tried to let the forums run themselves. We tried to let people work things out. It's not working, so the community - NOT the mods/admins - in essence, helped us make a choice to intervene and clean house.

[Lou and "Boo"]

We could update it to read: "Keep your bullshit drama out of here."

Now there's a good idea!

[Soundkillr]

Just inquiring about the lies presented on the main page Mr. Killer
Maybe a truthful statement should be displayed, that's all.

Lol, yes that's right, they are all lies. Perhaps we will re write the rules to cater to the likes of people like you. While we are at it ill make sure and include a full legal document of any and all situations that could possibly arise.
Lou, again I have to agree with Kane, you swore this place off. It was mods who ran to your defense behind the scenes. We stood up for you when you felt you were treated unfairly. I strongly encourage you to leave if you're not happy here. If you perceive this place as heavily biased moderation with poorly worded rules, and woven with fine lies then clearly you won't benefit from anything here...
Ill say this, we only have issues with about 5% of the people here. We have almost 3000 members. What does that say about those who simply can't get along. Perhaps we are in fact not the problem. Just something to ponder. Please play nice guys....

[Lou and "Boo"]

No need to get all uppity Mr. Killer. I was thankful to Tamir for his sticking up for me when it all went down. I was just back to buy and sell some Delorean parts. Is that so bad? Wow.

[Soundkillr]

No need to get all uppity Mr. Killer. I was thankful to Tamir for his sticking up for me when it all went down. I was just back to buy and sell some Delorean parts. Is that so bad? Wow.

You will find the parts for sale section a better place to post if that is in fact the case.