Auto transmission

[pmotors]

Hi guys, I'm new to the site and just purchased a very nice 81 delorean with 18k...mostly restored and updated. I bought it with a spare transmission, which was the original, and was told the b clutches needed to be replaced. previous owner purchased a new old stock one from DMC IN CA. it apparently had a 2 to 3 shift issue, which I've been hearing maybe just needing a updated governer. Anyways I was prob going to sell it, but not sure what it's worth. Anyone?

Thanks

[Domi]

Welcome to the forum :)
Congratulation on your purchase, looks like a very nice DeLorean.
Any more pictures and VIN number please?

[Shep]

just purchased
prob going to sell it, but not sure what it's worth.How much did you pay for it? That's your answer. If you just bought it, chances are it was listed at a fair price, so... ;)

[Soundkillr]

Pmotors, please come up with a price for the car and update your ad. If you need to place feelers for the value, please don't do it in the for sale section, do it in the open discussion. That said, moving this to open discussion.
Edit: after re reading your ad, are you selling the car, or the spare transmission?

[pmotors]

Not selling the car... I was looking for the value of the transmission. transmission came with my car as a spare. I don't need it.
sorry for confusion.

my car is VIN# 6661

thanks

paul

[Soundkillr]

Not selling the car... I was looking for the value of the transmission. transmission came with my car as a spare. I don't need it.
sorry for confusion.

my car is VIN# 6661

thanks

paul

Got ya. We had a member on here trying to sell a NOS auto trans, and I *think* he was asking 1000 dollars. I believe he had no interest on the forum, and listed it on eBay and had a bid up to 3100 if I remember correctly. That may not be much help, but it's a start....

[Nicholas R]

Got ya. We had a member on here trying to sell a NOS auto trans, and I *think* he was asking 1000 dollars. I believe he had no interest on the forum, and listed it on eBay and had a bid up to 3100 if I remember correctly. That may not be much help, but it's a start....

Holy cow, I'm impressed. I had no idea an automatic could go for so much!!

[Soundkillr]

Holy cow, I'm impressed. I had no idea an automatic could go for so much!!

Yea me either. Who knows if it actually sold for that, but those are the numbers the seller claimed to get....

[pmotors]

Got ya. We had a member on here trying to sell a NOS auto trans, and I *think* he was asking 1000 dollars. I believe he had no interest on the forum, and listed it on eBay and had a bid up to 3100 if I remember correctly. That may not be much help, but it's a start....

Wow! Alright I will give it a shot. Thanks

[DeLorean03]

Holy cow, I'm impressed. I had no idea an automatic could go for so much!!


Did you mean to say "for so little" ....?

http://store.delorean.com/c-386-4-5-0-assemblygasket-sets.aspx

Almost $6000 ? Dude, I'd invest in a Porsche transmission for another $2000. After the VR6 engine swap - trust me - I would have no problem investing in one, cranking my boost up to 15lbs or so, and watching nothing but headlights in my rear view mirror. Guarantee you that trans would put up with anything Eddie and I throw at it.

Then again, we may rebuild the entire Renault 4141 with more modern and stronger components to give us the strength we need to crank the boost.

Either way, things will get interesting down the road (read: at least a year from now).

[Shep]

Not selling the car... I was looking for the value of the transmission. transmission came with my car as a spare. I don't need it.
sorry for confusion.No no, sorry for my confusion. I saw this listed in the DeLorean Cars section and completely misinterpreted your post. My apologies man! :)


Don't expect to get $6,000 since it does have problems as mentioned and those are unused transmissions, but eBay (maybe with a reserve?) might be a good place to start. Keep us posted either way, and if you have an eBay auction, feel free to share a link to it! :thumbup:


I'd invest in a Porsche transmission [...] After the VR6 engine swap - trust me - I would have no problem investing in one, cranking my boost up to 15lbs or so, and watching nothing but headlights in my rear view mirror. Guarantee you that trans would put up with anything Eddie and I throw at it.Automatic Porsche transmission? Would... would this be a drop-in replacement??? Obviously governer/etc. would need upgrading too, but still, quite interested in this as currently my HP is maxed out my transmission's limit, so if I can upgrade the "weak link"... Care to start another thread and/or send me a PM about this? :)

[Flicky]

Almost $6000 ? Dude, I'd invest in a Porsche transmission for another $2000. After the VR6 engine swap - trust me - I would have no problem investing in one, cranking my boost up to 15lbs or so, and watching nothing but headlights in my rear view mirror. Guarantee you that trans would put up with anything Eddie and I throw at it.

Then again, we may rebuild the entire Renault 4141 with more modern and stronger components to give us the strength we need to crank the boost.
.

Indeed, speak more to us of this $8K auto that will actually fit. Another month or so and mine will be in FL with the hope we can get the trans to take at least 150hp. I've been waiting for someone to fit a tiny hybrid car trans in there. The more I think about my quest for a 300hp+ PRV with an auto, I think I might as well sell the D and get a Factory Five GTM. :offtopic2:

Not to derail the post here:
For the stocker auto I'd say someplace between $1000 and $1500 is fair...considering what a pain they are to ship. SpecialT sells a rebuild auto for $2,750. Not that I know of anyone running one. A good rebuild kit is like $550 from DPI.

[Shep]

Indeed, speak more to us of this $8K auto that will actually fit. Another month or so and mine will be in FL with the hope we can get the trans to take at least 150hp. I've been waiting for someone to fit a tiny hybrid car trans in there. The more I think about my quest for a 300hp+ PRV with an auto, I think I might as well sell the D and get a Factory Five GTM. :offtopic2:Well THAT was uncalled for :rolleyes1: I posted this bit for a reason:
Care to start another thread and/or send me a PM about this? :)So it wouldn't derail the thread or anything. No need to be a dick considering that kind of slight variance from the topic happens all the time. And for what it's worth, the thread title is "Auto Transmission" and it's in "Open Discussion", so I'd consider it fair game. No need to pick a fight here man.

EDIT: speaking of which, shouldn't this be in General DeLorean Discussion since it's DeLorean related? Not sure why it's in "[almost] anything goes" Open Discussion instead.

[DMCVegas]

Automatic Porsche transmission? Would... would this be a drop-in replacement??? Obviously governer/etc. would need upgrading too, but still, quite interested in this as currently my HP is maxed out my transmission's limit, so if I can upgrade the "weak link"... Care to start another thread and/or send me a PM about this? :)

Physically, yes, you can make it fit. Get an adaptor plate, and then weld the stock mounts to the Porsche mounts up front. Flanges are the same size and will bolt right up to your driveshafts.

Functionality wise, no, it's not going to work. Bob Brandys has had some experience with the Tiptronic, and it's a whole lotta proprietary code that you have to go through in order to get the automatic function to finally work. You can still manually select what gears to engage, but there is no fully automatic function with Porsche. Unless something has changed, no one has figured this one out yet AFAIK. Tiptronic is controlled by the engine computer instead of a separate unit. With no signal input from all of the Porsche's systems, it only allows the transaxle to work in limp-home mode.

If you want a coding challenge, Tiptronic would be it. Figure that one out, and you'd be a hero to many out there. And not just here in the DeLorean community either.

[David T]

An automatic transmission with "problems" is worth $500 IF it is a rebuildable core. If any of the hard parts or housings are damaged it is worth even less. A good rebuilt one is worth $2500-3000. This includes the torque converter. If you don't have that, again, it is worth less. Maybe DMCCA would buy it for parts. Or you can try E-Bay.

[Shep]

Physically, yes, you can make it fit. Get an adaptor plate, and then weld the stock mounts to the Porsche mounts up front. Flanges are the same size and will bolt right up to your driveshafts.

Functionality wise, no, it's not going to work. Bob Brandys has had some experience with the Tiptronic, and it's a whole lotta proprietary code that you have to go through in order to get the automatic function to finally work. You can still manually select what gears to engage, but there is no fully automatic function with Porsche. Unless something has changed, no one has figured this one out yet AFAIK. Tiptronic is controlled by the engine computer instead of a separate unit. With no signal input from all of the Porsche's systems, it only allows the transaxle to work in limp-home mode.

If you want a coding challenge, Tiptronic would be it. Figure that one out, and you'd be a hero to many out there. And not just here in the DeLorean community either.Hmm, this does sound like a good challenge. I'm both curious and interested, but I'm also wondering how it all works. I must not know all the details of an auto transmission or I'd probably know the answer, but it sounds like there's extra circuitry inside the transmission? If that's the case, could that internal circuitry theoretically be rebuilt from the ground-up to be compatible with the automatic transmission governer? I'm not sure, but it seems like I'm missing some part of the equation. Feel free to shoot me a PM so we can discuss this further if desired, or make a new thread on this. I can do the research to figure out how it all works, but no promise on any results or fixes :thumbup:


An automatic transmission with "problems" is worth $500 IF it is a rebuildable core. If any of the hard parts or housings are damaged it is worth even less. A good rebuilt one is worth $2500-3000. This includes the torque converter. If you don't have that, again, it is worth less. Maybe DMCCA would buy it for parts. Or you can try E-Bay.With only 18,000 miles? $500 or less seems awfully low for that considering NOS ones are sold for 11 times as much.

[Dangermouse]

The easy part is buying the box for $500 and a repair kit for another $500.

The hard part is finding someone to rebuild and test it for you.

[Flicky]

I've read that the triptronic will not shift if it detects the car is in a hard turn. I would guess there are several computer sensors that would have to be brought over and configured. Likely not worth it in the big picture given that you can build up the 5 speed for big power pretty easily.

How about a trans like the VW or Hyundai DCT setup. Not the best performance, but they are cheep at least. I seen entire wrecked velosters for under 2K. I've also looked at sand-rail setups with mendeola transaxles.

Shep, the off-topic was for my own post. Just didn't want the OP to get disgruntled that we are talking about potential auto trans swaps in what started as a for-sale post. This is a topic I am very interested in since I'm doing a turbo build up soon on mine, and will need to do something to enhance reliability.

[DMCVegas]

I've read that the triptronic will not shift if it detects the car is in a hard turn. I would guess there are several computer sensors that would have to be brought over and configured. Likely not worth it in the big picture given that you can build up the 5 speed for big power pretty easily.

How about a trans like the VW or Hyundai DCT setup. Not the best performance, but they are cheep at least. I seen entire wrecked velosters for under 2K. I've also looked at sand-rail setups with mendeola transaxles.

Shep, the off-topic was for my own post. Just didn't want the OP to get disgruntled that we are talking about potential auto trans swaps in what started as a for-sale post. This is a topic I am very interested in since I'm doing a turbo build up soon on mine, and will need to do something to enhance reliability.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg

Those are transverse, not longitudinal transaxles...

[Flicky]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/026/futuramafry.jpg

Those are transverse, not longitudinal transaxles...

lol, yeah. That was just a joke. Who would want to turn their car into a hyundai :)

Has anyone beefed up their auto? What parts are weakest? How about a custom torque converter? Assuming a converter could be built, would it boost mpg to add a lock-up feature for highway cruising?

[David T]

lol, yeah. That was just a joke. Who would want to turn their car into a hyundai :)

Has anyone beefed up their auto? What parts are weakest? How about a custom torque converter? Assuming a converter could be built, would it boost mpg to add a lock-up feature for highway cruising?

The problem is not so much the internals of the transmission but the shift computer. If you drive on a bad shift computer you will damage the transmission. The torque converter is not the problem either. Like any part of the car, if you do not take care of it and/or abuse it, it won't last. Actually the auto is no more problematic than the 5-speed, just more expensive to repair.

[Shep]

The problem is not so much the internals of the transmission but the shift computer. If you drive on a bad shift computer you will damage the transmission. The torque converter is not the problem either. Like any part of the car, if you do not take care of it and/or abuse it, it won't last. Actually the auto is no more problematic than the 5-speed, just more expensive to repair.I think what he's asking is what the limiting factor of the transmission is when it comes to HP. I've seen multiple sources (on this forum and elsewhere) state that the automatic is limited to 200 HP max (which I'm pushing right now), and that the stickshift is open to much more, almost unlimited HP. That's why DPI doesn't offer turbo setups on automatics, just the manuals, or else I'd have one myself. I'm actually curious what the limiting factor on an automatic is myself, and if there's a way to upgrade it. I'm not saying the shift computer is entirely out of the equation, but I wouldn't think the computer itself could be at fault for a mechanical limit? All it does is shift when it's told to. That's more RPM range and acceleration than horsepower. :hmm:

[DMCMW Dave]

Second and Third gear clutches fail, and the main hub cracks causing pressure loss. The hub failure is a design flaw, the other two are typically caused by governor failure which then has the car starting out in second or third gear.

I've tried one high stall converter and found that it didn't make much difference. A second one didn't work at all (failed conversion, both done by a very reputable builder). The converter is pretty small so there isn't much to work with.

I can't imagine that the cost of developing and installing a locking version of the converter (which would also require transmission changes) would EVER pay off in fuel economy for one owner. Especially as much as these cars are typically driven.

Interesting factoid - we've replaced a remarkably small number of automatic transmissions over the past 7 years. Every Single One that was replaced due to failure had been rebuilt by someone else prior to the failure we observed. This tells me that it is a difficult transmission to rebuild correctly, and/or so few are rebuilt that the people doing it make mistakes due to lack of familiarity with them.

[Mark D]

Hi guys, I'm new to the site and just purchased a very nice 81 delorean with 18k...mostly restored and updated. I bought it with a spare transmission, which was the original, and was told the b clutches needed to be replaced. previous owner purchased a new old stock one from DMC IN CA. it apparently had a 2 to 3 shift issue, which I've been hearing maybe just needing a updated governer. Anyways I was prob going to sell it, but not sure what it's worth. Anyone?

Thanks

Hey welcome to the forum! Nice looking DeLorean from the pic you posted! I don't think I've ever seen one with the "DeLorean" lettering down the side that didn't have the side skirt/gfx kit installed. It looks nice!

[David T]

Second and Third gear clutches fail, and the main hub cracks causing pressure loss. The hub failure is a design flaw, the other two are typically caused by governor failure which then has the car starting out in second or third gear.

I've tried one high stall converter and found that it didn't make much difference. A second one didn't work at all (failed conversion, both done by a very reputable builder). The converter is pretty small so there isn't much to work with.

I can't imagine that the cost of developing and installing a locking version of the converter (which would also require transmission changes) would EVER pay off in fuel economy for one owner. Especially as much as these cars are typically driven.

Interesting factoid - we've replaced a remarkably small number of automatic transmissions over the past 7 years. Every Single One that was replaced due to failure had been rebuilt by someone else prior to the failure we observed. This tells me that it is a difficult transmission to rebuild correctly, and/or so few are rebuilt that the people doing it make mistakes due to lack of familiarity with them.

The Renault auto trans has "clutch packs" nested inside one another and no bands so the design is foreign to most American mechanics who, when they attempt to rebuild, do not respect the running clearances and don't have the special tools necessary to do the job correctly. Even guys experienced on a Renault get rusty since it is not often they do them in the US. The limiting part is C-1. It is the smallest clutch pack and since all of the power has to go through all of the clutch packs all the time the smallest one dies first. As a theoretical point, an automatic is a better match to a turbo because of the torque converter but not the Renault. Too weak. HP is an important factor but torque even more so. Especially when it is applied and over how long a period. For instance see how long an automatic will survive by standing on the brakes, revving the motor to redline in neutral and then shifting into drive. A 5-speed will last a bit longer because it CAN handle more HP and torque but don't expect a long life from either! The automatics seem to be OK as long as you don't flog them, keep the fluid clean, and never drive on a bad shift computer. BTW, the 5-speeds in the V-8 Lotus handle 250 HP and can last a long time but they do have some differences from the Delorean application. Even in the Lotus you don't do standing starts or you rip the teeth right off the crownwheel. No one is going to perfect a locking converter for the Delorean. Too small a market, too little to be gained in efficiency and the cost will be too high. Cheaper to sell your automatic and get a 5-speed.

[Nicholas R]

Interesting factoid - we've replaced a remarkably small number of automatic transmissions over the past 7 years. Every Single One that was replaced due to failure had been rebuilt by someone else prior to the failure we observed. This tells me that it is a difficult transmission to rebuild correctly, and/or so few are rebuilt that the people doing it make mistakes due to lack of familiarity with them.

Good to know. I picked up the full set of specialty tools for rebuilding the automatics and manuals, but I won't go anywhere near an automatic. Manuals on the other hand... :biggrin:



The 5-speeds in the V-8 Lotus handle 250 HP and can last a long time but they do have some differences from the Delorean application. Even in the Lotus you don't do standing starts or you rip the teeth right off the crownwheel. No one is going to perfect a locking converter for the Delorean. Too small a market, too little to be gained in efficiency and the cost will be too high. Cheaper to sell your automatic and get a 5-speed.

These differences between the UN1 in the Esprit V8 and the 369 in the DeLorean aren't nearly as big as people act though. Internally, truly there are only 2 differences. First is the double tapered roller bearing on the input shaft, second is the 5th gear oiling grooves in the 5th gear cover. The 3rd/4th sliding coupler has different style detent springs but that makes little difference. The only other difference is gear ratio differences (which are still pretty similar). You can go to Lotus Talk and read all you want about the UN1. They hold up pretty well, even when you increase the output. Sure, they'll fail every now and then, but usually it's from a really bad hard shift into 5th under wide open throttle.

[Flicky]

Interesting factoid - we've replaced a remarkably small number of automatic transmissions over the past 7 years. Every Single One that was replaced due to failure had been rebuilt by someone else prior to the failure we observed. This tells me that it is a difficult transmission to rebuild correctly, and/or so few are rebuilt that the people doing it make mistakes due to lack of familiarity with them.

Thanks Dave & Dave for that info. I am doing a turbo/EFI build up over the winter. The thinking is the turbo pressure will be set lower (~5psi) to limit the power (~140hp). Considering what you said, would you recommend not touching the trans? It has 20K miles and I have all new electronics in the car. I think the trans governor is a 6 year back model from DMCH. Does DMCMW have any options for a "performance" rebuild? Are there any limited slip diffs out there for the auto? I guess if it is going to cap at 200hp, then maybe a diff is just another silly thing to think about.

Shep, are you running a forged bottom? How long have you been at your power level now?

[Shep]

Shep, are you running a forged bottom? How long have you been at your power level now?I've got DPI Camshafts, a SPEC I cat-delete exhaust, a few other mods and a whole lot of tweaking to get maximum HP out of it all. Been at that level since the restoration, but the transmission is the stock weak link.

Either way, I've suddenly learned there's a whoooooole lot about auto transmissions I was completely unaware of. Maybe it's time to learn stickshift after all, sounds like upgrading the auto transmission isn't worth the time and effort put into it... :hmm:

[Dangermouse]

I think that's probably a wise move.

Unless you are a Renault 4141 AT Guru, or can find one (ha!), I doubt that it is something you could teach yourself apart from trial and (expensive) error.

[Jonathan]

Gary's car (for sale here on the ODOC page) is an automatic with a turbo. Not sure about how much horsepower it has though.

http://odoc.ca/ODOC/Marketplace.html

It's a very nice car when I saw it last. He moved out East from what I understand but the car is still in Ontario. This is the first DeLorean I ever sat in.

[DeLorean03]

sounds like upgrading the auto transmission isn't worth the time and effort put into it... :hmm:

We'll see about that....

I remember someone told Eddie he couldn't fit a 2jz engine into a DeLorean too. Then this happened:

30857

Eddie loves a challenge. We are in our extremely EARLY stages of investigating on how to upgrade the stock transmission. I never said "We are going with a Porsche." All I said was: "Psh, if I'm going to spend nearly $6000 on a stock auto, might as well spend some more $$$ and get a transmission that can handle the abuse."

To be honest, our transmission upgrades will not be discussed until we have our plan in motion and ready to roll (read: another year from now). At this point though, we're going auto. Because once that weak link is removed, there won't be much holding us back.

Of course, everything is tentative, but Eddie never disappoints. When he says he's going to do it - you can bet the farm it's going to happen.

[David T]

Good to know. I picked up the full set of specialty tools for rebuilding the automatics and manuals, but I won't go anywhere near an automatic. Manuals on the other hand... :biggrin:




These differences between the UN1 in the Esprit V8 and the 369 in the DeLorean aren't nearly as big as people act though. Internally, truly there are only 2 differences. First is the double tapered roller bearing on the input shaft, second is the 5th gear oiling grooves in the 5th gear cover. The 3rd/4th sliding coupler has different style detent springs but that makes little difference. The only other difference is gear ratio differences (which are still pretty similar). You can go to Lotus Talk and read all you want about the UN1. They hold up pretty well, even when you increase the output. Sure, they'll fail every now and then, but usually it's from a really bad hard shift into 5th under wide open throttle.

There are also differences in the type of metal used for some of the gears and the heat treat. The parts are then hand paired and precision matched. The clutch is a twin plate affair, VERY expensive. Magic fluid is also recommended but no longer available. No complaints about the nuts coming loose and chewing the end cover though. The rumor is the ECU has limits built into it to detune the motor so the transmission can last at least past the warranty period. Most of the hotter chips for the ECU have reduced or removed these limits.

[TTait]

Anyways I was prob going to sell it, but not sure what it's worth. Anyone?

Thanks

As its a heavy piece to ship, a big part of the value is if you can find a local buyer. You will be able to sell it easier to someone who only has to drive 30 miles, hand you some cash, and get your help loading it into his pickup.

Where is this transmission - Los Angeles (based on the DMCCA reference)?

[Citizen]

I remember someone told Eddie he couldn't fit a 2jz engine into a DeLorean too. Then this happened:
30857


Toyota 24-valve DOHC engine, eh? Would you happen to have the VIN of Eddie's car? For the record book, of course.

Thomas

...

[Nicholas R]

I've got DPI Camshafts, a SPEC I cat-delete exhaust, a few other mods and a whole lot of tweaking to get maximum HP out of it all. Been at that level since the restoration, but the transmission is the stock weak link.

Is that everything? Are your heads stock? What kind of HP/torque are you making? DeLorean03s car is making ~210hp/240ftlbs at the wheels through the automatic transmission with no problem. It's that torque that's the real deal.


There are also differences in the type of metal used for some of the gears and the heat treat. The parts are then hand paired and precision matched. The clutch is a twin plate affair, VERY expensive. Magic fluid is also recommended but no longer available. No complaints about the nuts coming loose and chewing the end cover though. The rumor is the ECU has limits built into it to detune the motor so the transmission can last at least past the warranty period. Most of the hotter chips for the ECU have reduced or removed these limits.

Magic Fluid??

Production gears and gear shafts are hobbed, case hardened, and ground. That's about it. There not an inspector that is comparing the tooth profiles of every gear and matching them to their counterparts. If you're sure that the materials are different, I'd really like to know what the 369 main shaft material is compared to the UN1-026/27 material is. Do you have something that documents that?

I've got a lot of documentation on 367s, 369s (including 369-1 and 369-2), UN1s (the full series from UN1 to UN1-03 all the way to UN1-028s), and UN5s. The differences are small to say the least. The most notable difference is probably small differences in the castings, and the different bellhousing.

EDIT: I will say that it does bum me out a little that the 369 is only a 2 spider differential instead of a 4 spider diff like the later UN1s.

[David T]

All I have to fall back on is hearsay and rumors. Lotus never releases all of it's proprietary information except to say you can't source their parts out of other company's cross/overs. I have spoken to Lotus techs and Field service advisers too. As an example, in the Elise and Exige they use a Toyota motor. The company line is you can't just order Toyota parts because Lotus hand-picks and matches the parts, does further machining and heat treating and other "magic" to make the parts better. As for the "magic" fluid, the only fluid recommended by Lotus is Castrol TAF-X 75W/90. They never tested anything else. It was never available in the US except through the Lotus parts network. It is no longer available except for old stock. What most use now is Redline MT-90. Seems to be OK. As for the diff, some have spent the bucks to put the Quiffe in. Most say it doesn't improve the handling so much as it changes it. Some say for the better and some say not so much.

[SIMid]

the main hub cracks causing pressure loss. The hub failure is a design flaw

Been down this road ...... $4000 later .....

[Dangermouse]

Toyota 24-valve DOHC engine, eh? Would you happen to have the VIN of Eddie's car? For the record book, of course.

Thomas

...

Really, Thomas?? You of all people don't have this?? I'm shocked!!

Would you like me to come over and help out ?

j/k

it's 10410

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10454-1982-DeLorean-Sports-Coupe-%28Modified%29-VIN-SCEDT26T0CD010410

[DMCVegas]

All I have to fall back on is hearsay and rumors. Lotus never releases all of it's proprietary information except to say you can't source their parts out of other company's cross/overs. I have spoken to Lotus techs and Field service advisers too. As an example, in the Elise and Exige they use a Toyota motor. The company line is you can't just order Toyota parts because Lotus hand-picks and matches the parts, does further machining and heat treating and other "magic" to make the parts better. As for the "magic" fluid, the only fluid recommended by Lotus is Castrol TAF-X 75W/90. They never tested anything else. It was never available in the US except through the Lotus parts network. It is no longer available except for old stock. What most use now is Redline MT-90. Seems to be OK. As for the diff, some have spent the bucks to put the Quiffe in. Most say it doesn't improve the handling so much as it changes it. Some say for the better and some say not so much.

I've heard about the fluid too from a few different people. It was supposed to be something that Lotus worked with Renault on as another way to push longevity any way that they could. Now I can tell you that back when my DeLorean was only 20 years old I had the transaxle fluid drained and refilled. Granted 20 years is a long time for oil and things are going to happen to the viscosity. But with the right oil, the gearbox gets nice and slippery and shifts gears with so much less effort. So yeah, the UN-Series of Transaxles is indeed very sensitive to oil.




We'll see about that....

I remember someone told Eddie he couldn't fit a 2jz engine into a DeLorean too. Then this happened:

30857

That engine swap scares the living hell out of me because of this:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/crazyedfsu/engine003.jpg

Without that rear crossmember of the chassis in place, who in the holy hell knows HOW that car is going to perform in a rear end collision now. First, that's a whole lotta flex on the back end. Second, and more importantly, in a collision, the chassis is no longer able to protect the engine. It's going to bust it's engine and tranny mounts and take out the drivetrain. Once it's detached, who knows where it's going to end up. But you have to hope that it doesn't penetrate into the passenger cabin.

[Nicholas R]

All I have to fall back on is hearsay and rumors. Lotus never releases all of it's proprietary information except to say you can't source their parts out of other company's cross/overs. I have spoken to Lotus techs and Field service advisers too. As an example, in the Elise and Exige they use a Toyota motor. The company line is you can't just order Toyota parts because Lotus hand-picks and matches the parts, does further machining and heat treating and other "magic" to make the parts better. As for the "magic" fluid, the only fluid recommended by Lotus is Castrol TAF-X 75W/90. They never tested anything else. It was never available in the US except through the Lotus parts network. It is no longer available except for old stock. What most use now is Redline MT-90. Seems to be OK. As for the diff, some have spent the bucks to put the Quiffe in. Most say it doesn't improve the handling so much as it changes it. Some say for the better and some say not so much.

I understand what you're saying; I was just curious if you had anything else. I've run some lab tests on a transmission shaft that I have right now. They're very clearly case hardened, but the material is nothing to write home about, with hobbed gears that are ground post heat treat. I've got a source with a Niton gun which will hopefully be able to tell me exactly what the material is. Truthfully I'm not expecting much more than general purpose alloy steel. I've been curious about the quaife LSD for a while now. It's still on my list. I drove the 2JZ DeLorean once (which is the only DeLorean I know of that has the Quaife LSD installed), however; at the time I wasn't really thinking about the differential so I dont remember whether it made a difference. This was also with wider rear tires so I'm sure that helped.


I've heard about the fluid too from a few different people. It was supposed to be something that Lotus worked with Renault on as another way to push longevity any way that they could. Now I can tell you that back when my DeLorean was only 20 years old I had the transaxle fluid drained and refilled. Granted 20 years is a long time for oil and things are going to happen to the viscosity. But with the right oil, the gearbox gets nice and slippery and shifts gears with so much less effort. So yeah, the UN-Series of Transaxles is indeed very sensitive to oil.


The difficulty with transaxles like ours is that when it comes to the oil, you have to find a balance that serves both the differential and the gear train (mostly the synchronizers) since they're all together. Technically, if the oil gets nice and slippery, you're going to start having trouble shifting because the synchros wont be able to bite the cones of the idler gears, and the sliding gear coupler wont be able to engage the dog teeth. Shifting will be very difficult and you'll grind as you try to engage. Then again, if you use a really thin oil that works well for the synchros and helical gears, you're going to start damaging the differential. The hypoid gears on the crown gear and pinion gear have to be able to slide A LOT. That's how they work. Spur gears dont slide anywhere near as much as hypoid gears. If the oil on the hypoid gears is too thin, you loose your oil barrier, and it is metal on metal. Eventually the gears heat up/cool down/heat up/cool down, work harden, and break/strip.

[David T]

Yes, the fluid is a lot of compromises. Some of the additives that make it work can attack the brass and bronze parts too. MT-90 seems to work and we have a lot of history on it so it doesn't seem to be attacking the metals, the syncros work, and longevity doesn't seem to be an issue. Some complain about shifting when cold but unless you are driving in Alaska in the winter it doesn't seem to be a big problem. Getting back to the main point, the automatic is near it's limits with the stock motor and there is not a lot you can do to improve it's capacity. The whole thing was very well designed from the standpoint that there is no weak link, the whole box was designed to handle a certain amount of power and that is it. The 5-speed can handle more but with a lot of caveats. Both have their problems but there are ways to fix them. The 5-speed is less expensive to repair and you get better gas mileage. The auto is more convenient to drive especially on hills and in traffic. BTW, you can only tell if the Quaiffe is any better is at the limits of handling like at a track. It will make no difference for street driving or to 99% of drivers. About all the Quaiffe is good for is bragging rights and the only way you can tell it is in there is if you take the final drive apart.

[Flicky]

Is there a page in the workshop manual that shows what the "main hub" is? Would making the hub out of a stronger alloy fix the issue?
For the #1 clutch, could there be new plates made to take more power? I think TCI and Hughes (Alto) still do one-off custom stuff like that, not that it would be cheap.

[David T]

Is there a page in the workshop manual that shows what the "main hub" is? Would making the hub out of a stronger alloy fix the issue?
For the #1 clutch, could there be new plates made to take more power? I think TCI and Hughes (Alto) still do one-off custom stuff like that, not that it would be cheap.

Remember "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link"? Well the whole automatic transmission is engineered so all of the parts are the "weakest link". The drum of the C-1 clutch pack is made out of stamped steel and spot welded to the base. The spot welds tear out. You could drill holes and plug weld it. The hub is made out of aluminum. I suppose you could make one out of steel but very quickly you will find the next weak link and the next, and the next. IMHO you will be building a whole transmission piece by piece. You're right about the not being cheap part. This is what they do every night at the track. They try to destroy things at night and during the day try to make it stronger. If you keep at it eventually you wind up with something better but at great expense.

[Citizen]

Really, Thomas?? You of all people don't have this?? I'm shocked!!

Would you like me to come over and help out ?

j/k

it's 10410

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10454-1982-DeLorean-Sports-Coupe-%28Modified%29-VIN-SCEDT26T0CD010410

Well, now that I know the VIN, I looked it up, and I did have it listed. I just couldn't remember, s0 thanks for helping out an old guy with his memory!
:)

Thomas

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