Broad technical questions: GM Drive-train?

[Twilight_Fenrir]

Well, I don't actually own a DeLorean yet, but I'd certainly like to. The two biggest things holding me back, are the cost of the car itself, and the cost of the parts to keep them running well.

The easiest way I can think of to resolve this, would be to find a mechanically shot DMC, and replace everything I can with GM parts, readily available at salvage yards, or my local o'Reily's.

I poked around the internet at large looking for what other people have put into these vehicles, and the only GM engines I see specifically are Northstar V8's, and a 3800 SCII. Either of which would be fine, but I don't necessarily need to make a stainless steel rocket. (Fun though it may be) My primary goal is maintainability, and driveability.

I don't quite understand the layout of the drive train though... From what pictures and videos I see, the front of the engine points straight out the back. So the output is forwards. Does it have a transmission similar to my '66 Oldsmobile Toronado? Except, spinning the opposite direction? Are there any suitable manual transmission swaps from a GM vehicle, or would I be looking at a Rear-engine specific trans from a Porsche, etc. Wouldn't have a problem with the stock 5 spd if it can be bolted up to a GM engine.

Is there a defined "Most economical" engine swap? I know with my Fiero, it's either the 3800SCII, or a Northstar as well. Something readily available, that requires minimal modification to the vehicles structure.

That's where I'm at at the moment. I'm here to learn, so please hit me with any input you've got,

Thanks!

[TTait]

On topic:

In general, the parts are not expensive, its just that there are so many of them to worry about on a 30 year old car. There were some parts that did not perform well by modern standards, but in most cases better substitutes have already been found.

Off topic:

You can and should make your future car anything you want, but you need to do it in a way that works for you.

If you had the choice of buying a new stock fuel pump, accumulator, injectors, a cold start valve, a frequency valve, an idle controller, warm up regulator, idle speed motor, and having your fuel distributor rebuilt - or converting over to a carb on a custom intake assembly - the carb might well save you money - but your not going to get as much help here when something goes wrong because no one else will have done it exactly the same way you have. You'll be on your own not because we don't care, but because your in less charted waters.


A great example:

You have probably run into Bill here already - he's the king of swapping your car over to run on a carb, as well as countless other interesting modifications.

I'd worry a lot about how happy you would be if you re-engineered the entire car just to try and save money. I don't think Bills goal is to save money so much as to solve problems that he finds.

I have not met him personally but I think the stock D just leaves him a bit bored, and its his nature that makes him have to tinker. I'd venture a bet that if Houston gave Bill a new build car with a lifetime warranty and a service package, on the condition that he touches or modifies nothing - that the car would quickly sit unused and actually become a annoyance to him. That's him. If its you too - then you probably don't even want our suggestions on how to pull this off - you want to figure it out yourself.

He probably saves a chunk of change on a number of his projects, but he's also his own engineer and his own support network. I suspect that any time he disassembles something on the car he's like one of those guys on tv who sees engineering diagrams in the air in front of him as he envisions how he would have done it differently, even if he had never had a problem with the part before that moment.
Unwanted advice:

If your the kind of guy who takes apart everything he owns to try to make it better or simpler - then go for it. If what you want is to own the car and drive it and have fun in the community, slow down a little. Don't paint yourself into a corner whereby the only way you can have the experience is if you find a custom solution for everything that costs only 50% of the more common choice. You will soon be miserable. You need to find a mode of ownership that will work for you and your personality be that tinkering, or car shows, dressing up like Doc, chatting with folks at the gas station, or picking up chicks at sci-fi conventions. If your motivation is to save cash, then save up a little more and get the car when you can best afford it - the prices have been pretty darned steady for pretty much 30 years and they aren't going to skyrocket soon.

Ahhh, I see your hour is up. Next week we should talk about your relationship with your father, and what you think the giraffe in your recurring dream might symbolize.

- Dr. Tom




(... and Bill, I don't know you in real life but I have immense respect for how you help others here, share your insights, and expound your passions. Please don't be offended that I used you as an example here - you were just the appropriate folk-hero to illustrate a point. I strive to be as passionate about things as you are, in my own way.)

[sdg3205]

A well maintained DeLorean is just as reliable than the next 30 year old car.

Parts are completely affordable and there are dozens of vendors (literally scattered across the planet!) so don't worry about accessibility. In fact, parts for the 2000 Jeep TJ are often more expensive!

There are quite a few restoration threads/blogs you should read to see what it takes to get a car back on the road. They're very insightful!

Somewhere there is also a "I want a cheap/crappy/engineless DeLorean" thread which will help inform as well. As people here will tell you, it's quite common to hear new members talk about engine swaps with ambitions of making the car faster or more reliable. In reality, the PRV is a very reliable engine, probably the most reliable thing about the whole car! Reinforcing the fuel, cooling and electrical systems with DMC specific upgrades goes along way as well.

[AdmiralSenn]

The standard wisdom on ANY car forum is that if you don't already know how to engineer a custom engine swap and go about having all the necessary parts fabricated, you probably shouldn't attempt it unless you at least understand that you're likely getting into more work than repairing the original motor.

The less polite version is "If you have to ask, DON'T TOUCH IT!" :tongue:
Engine swaps are not cheap.

You will be far, far happier (and less in the hole financially) if you buy a D that runs well and learn what you need to replace before it breaks, then make sure to keep up on it. They're not unreliable vehicles as a rule.

The transmission is a fairly unique application. It's actually a transaxle, and there are not very many that will fit and do the job in these cars. Most swaps end up using Porsche boxes. It's a major stumbling block for any swap - particularly the mounts, bellhousing, shift linkage, and making it all fit. (So basically the entirety of the transmission assembly is an issue.)

Another issue is that if you swap in a powerplant from another car, you may find that when you DO need service, nobody will touch it! I know there's a Northstar-powered D that's floated around a bit that is (or was) repeatedly being turned away from GM shops, and the DMC techs aren't necessarily trained on GM engines, so engine-specific questions may leave you on your own.

The only swap that's really done with any sort of frequency is the 3.0 Eagle Premier PRV, which is about the easiest possible engine swap ever. It does entail switching from the factory fuel and ignition to either the Eagle computers (not sure if anyone's done that successfully) or an aftermarket solution.

Going to a motor that isn't compatible with the car will be a LOT of work. And there's a better than even chance that you'll destroy parts of the car in the process if you don't know what you're doing (specifically the frame and body tend to get hacked and "improved" to make things fit where they were never intended to be).

I'd say look for YOUR car first, one that runs well and is ready to go. Learn it, play with it, decide what you absolutely MUST do to it and what you can live without, then make your large-financial-outlay decisions. Car forums of every make and model are full of failed projects that started out with questions similar to yours, but ended up unfinished and sold for parts or scrap.

[dvonk]

if you havent read this info yet, it is a good place to start:

Please read before posting “I want a cheap DeLorean” or “Project Car Wanted” threads (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?371-Please-read-before-posting-%E2%80%9CI-want-a-cheap-DeLorean%E2%80%9D-or-%E2%80%9CProject-Car-Wanted%E2%80%9D-threads)

[Twilight_Fenrir]

Well, I was orriginally hoping I could find something in the $8k range, but from the info on the 'ask before posting etc' it seems that may.not necessarily be the best option. That's exactly why i'm asking. :)

I'm from Northern Minnesota. I see a D pop up in Minneapolis from time to time, but they're usually not too friendly about looky-loos. I've neve seen an actual car in person.

Ideally i'd like a car to drive, and enjoy. I've never seen the point oF 'trailer queens' or cars that spend more time in a garage than on the road. I guess I was hoping for GM stuff because that's wjat I am familiar with, and can easily maintain. Always enjoyed learning new things though.

Thanks for all the information, i'm definitely going to keep looking up more on the cars, and hang around here to learn what I can before sinking a small fortune into a car... The most i've paid for a car to-date is $2,500 lol. Of course, i've put much more than that into them since...

I'm surprised I walked into being a common topic, usually I come with weird questions/ideas :P But, I see how my misconception on this one would be a popular one. I'm coming from a Fiero background, where there are 30k+ cars, and customization is the name of the game. There are countless special parts just for making specific power train swaps.

[Twilight_Fenrir]

One other good question I have... I understand the rule of thumb is a good running D will cost $25k, weather you buy it for that outright, or buy it for $15, and put $10 into it. Are these approximations including labor, or just hardware?

If you can get a half-decent, barely run-able car for $15k, I don't see how the needed parts can run $10k and be considered in-expensive, unless we're talking relative to the initial cost of the vehicle... Or, that including a motor rebuild? If it's including labor, I could easily afford the maintainence, since I would do it myself.

Another concern of the stock hardware, don't most of the major compoments come from a finite supply of leftover parts? I realize there are decades worth at the current going rate, but they will run out...

These were the questions that originally prompted my desire to gut and rebuild. Honestly, i'd love to keep it stock, with minor upgrades, that's how I prefer to work on cars.

[Ashyukun]

Another concern of the stock hardware, don't most of the major compoments come from a finite supply of leftover parts? I realize there are decades worth at the current going rate, but they will run out...

This has already happened with some parts- and enterprising companies/individuals have either engineered newer, better replacements or simply commissioned replicas of the original parts to be made. As long as there is a market and a demand for the parts, someone will step up to the plate and make it happen. There are definitely parts for which you will pay a LOT of money at the moment- front left fenders, driver's side torsion bars (though those have gotten better, as an example of parts that were resurrected)- but there's also the (somewhat sad) fact that we probably lose a car or two each year due to different reasons, and I'd hazard that most of the time a car is totaled if it isn't picked up by someone to resurrect, it's parted out and the parts find their way to people who need them.

As others have said, we're really in a better boat than some other older classic cars go- the nature of the company's demise meant that there were a lot more spares left over than would normally have been the case, and the continued interest in the cars and efforts of the vendors have meant that with a modest budget it's quite possible to keep the car running happily whether you keep it concours-stock or modify it like the carb setup from Bill that I run. There have been more radical mods done- see Rich's threads for example, as well as the aforementioned Northstar, the Mazda 20B powered DeLorean I've seen videos of, and there's even at least one electric conversion running around. If you want to tackle something like those, I say go for it- but go into it prepared to either be doing a lot of engineering and fabrication work, or paying someone else a whole lot more money than the car is likely worth to do it for you...

[ramblinmike]

One other good question I have... I understand the rule of thumb is a good running D will cost $25k, weather you buy it for that outright, or buy it for $15, and put $10 into it. Are these approximations including labor, or just hardware?

If you can get a half-decent, barely run-able car for $15k, I don't see how the needed parts can run $10k and be considered in-expensive, unless we're talking relative to the initial cost of the vehicle... Or, that including a motor rebuild? If it's including labor, I could easily afford the maintainence, since I would do it myself.

Another concern of the stock hardware, don't most of the major compoments come from a finite supply of leftover parts? I realize there are decades worth at the current going rate, but they will run out...

These were the questions that originally prompted my desire to gut and rebuild. Honestly, i'd love to keep it stock, with minor upgrades, that's how I prefer to work on cars.

Don't get hung up by what you read about these cars. I can see from your sig that you have some old cars. This is JUST ANOTHER OLD CAR. Granted, there are some DeLorean-Specific issues that *may* come up, but all of the severe issues have been worked out years ago. The reason people have the $25k rule is largely due to the fact that many of these cars were bought as 'investments' and have never actually been driven. As I'm sure you know, the hydraulic and fuel systems on cars do not like to sit. On your '66 Toronado, a fuel system rebuild would consist of a $25 fuel pump and a carb kit. You'd need to drop the gas tank to clean the crap out of it but you'd be out $75. On the DMC, the K-Jetronic fuel system is very reliable IF it has been kept in fuel filters, good gas, and NEVER ALLOWED to sit for any length of time. Old fuel destroys the original fuel baffle setup, dissolves the fuel system o-rings, and gums of the fuel pump, fuel distributor and injectors, etc, etc, etc. Millions of cars were sold with this setup and I'd say that a great many are still on the road. People freak out about the K-Jet largely out of ignorance. Read and ask questions.

If I were you, I'd find a car that has been driven regularly and be prepared to treat it like any other car. I've done everything on my car myself and treated it like it should be treated - a learning experience. I've done the recommended upgrades, done the same maintenance that any other 30-year-old car would need, and now I have a car I'd drive anywhere. Jump on in but be prepared to face things not normally found on cars this side of the pond.

The DMC vendors have all of the 'consumable' parts readily available. It's the 'hard' parts that can get in short supply. The vendors also have a great reputation for product support and this community will help you the best they can.

[Twilight_Fenrir]

Don't get hung up by what you read about these cars. I can see from your sig that you have some old cars. This is JUST ANOTHER OLD CAR. Granted, there are some DeLorean-Specific issues that *may* come up, but all of the severe issues have been worked out years ago. The reason people have the $25k rule is largely due to the fact that many of these cars were bought as 'investments' and have never actually been driven. As I'm sure you know, the hydraulic and fuel systems on cars do not like to sit. On your '66 Toronado, a fuel system rebuild would consist of a $25 fuel pump and a carb kit. You'd need to drop the gas tank to clean the crap out of it but you'd be out $75. On the DMC, the K-Jetronic fuel system is very reliable IF it has been kept in fuel filters, good gas, and NEVER ALLOWED to sit for any length of time. Old fuel destroys the original fuel baffle setup, dissolves the fuel system o-rings, and gums of the fuel pump, fuel distributor and injectors, etc, etc, etc. Millions of cars were sold with this setup and I'd say that a great many are still on the road. People freak out about the K-Jet largely out of ignorance. Read and ask questions.

If I were you, I'd find a car that has been driven regularly and be prepared to treat it like any other car. I've done everything on my car myself and treated it like it should be treated - a learning experience. I've done the recommended upgrades, done the same maintenance that any other 30-year-old car would need, and now I have a car I'd drive anywhere. Jump on in but be prepared to face things not normally found on cars this side of the pond.

The DMC vendors have all of the 'consumable' parts readily available. It's the 'hard' parts that can get in short supply. The vendors also have a great reputation for product support and this community will help you the best they can.

Now that, is a very reasonable, logical sentiment, thank you :) And, more or less, exactly what I would like to do. I actually did just completely repair the fuel system on my Toronado... $30 pump, $50 carb kit, and $50 for some POR-15 fuel tank sealer. The tabs on it when I bought it were actually from '81... weird But, it was cheap, like you said.

I had heard some grumblings about the fuel system, but people make the same noise about Quadra-jets. Despite them being pretty much the best Carb for anything, except the actual tuning is a pain.

None of my cars have fuel injection... well.. my Fiero has a TBI, but that's just a fancy carb really. I've always liked the idea of more mechanical systems than electronic (Hence I won't buy any cars younger than I am), and a mechanical fuel injection just sounds like alot of fun to tinker with :P

I'd really love to find a D that's just been treated like a regular car. None of these things with 10-50K miles... I want 100k+ miles really... Tinkering is half the fun of owning cars. The only way I learn about the various systems of a car, is by taking them appart when they break. I'm comfortable working on just about anything now, except the bottom end of an engine, and I'm still wary of suspensions. Oh, and transmissions.

The only mechanical quirk that I've read about so far that really bothered me, is the bits I keep hearing about engines sitting, and dissolving from the inside out. Long neglected coolant just eating the aluminum away, in some cases dissolving holes into the cylinders, etc. The catastrophes deep inside you can't see in an un-running vehicle, that's what worries me most

Just a real quick hop back to the original question though... During my research, I found this site which seems to sell(?) various parts... one of which about halfway down looks like a belhousing to mate a UN1 to a Chevy V8? Or am I looking at this wrong:

http://www.gtoracing.co.uk/parts.html

[ramblinmike]

I'm on my phone so I won't comment on the link you provided. :)
Treat the stuff you read about engines rotting, fires, TABs, explosions, and unpected trips to 1955 like you would the news. It's the bad stuff you hear about. Happy people don't talk much but I bet there are more of us happy people around than you think. The aluminum engine issues you've read about aren't DeLorean-specific. They would be found in any aluminum engine that has been around for awhile.
Don't the the 'fuel-injection' thing sway you. It is actually pretty damn cool to learn how mechanical fuel injection works on these things. The injectors are actually like metered fuel foggers that are controlled by a huge air flap that moves a piston in the fuel distributor. More rpm=more air moving the flap=fuel distributor allowing more fuel to be sent to the injectors.

I personally think the D is completely driveable as it is. Will you beat anything from 2011 in a race? Prolly not. But it moves itself just fine and loves to go 70mph down the highway. I think people get hung up about the performance because it looks like it should haul ass. It drives like a car. An ordinary, uneventful, go to the store car. Nothing more but certainly nothing less.

[Twilight_Fenrir]

I personally think the D is completely driveable as it is. Will you beat anything from 2011 in a race? Prolly not. But it moves itself just fine and loves to go 70mph down the highway. I think people get hung up about the performance because it looks like it should haul ass. It drives like a car. An ordinary, uneventful, go to the store car. Nothing more but certainly nothing less.

I've got no qualms with it being a slow car :P I have my '66 Toronado for tearing it up... that thing has muscle to spare. And it's all factory, minus the disc brakes I'll be putting in. (Stopping 4800 lbs with 4 wheel drum is scary... even more so, when there's only one reservoir)

My Fiero is about the same weight as a D, and it only has 80 hp, and I still enjoy driving it more than my Olds somehow... It might be the handling, or responsiveness, or maybe just the manual transmission. Not sure... but, the D will be fast relative to that.

It's always easy to forget you only hear about the bad... Most people remember John DeLorean was indicted on drug charges... Very few know he was found innocent.

During my research into the history, and reasons behind the designs... they talk about how the D was originally spec'ed at about 170 HP, but emissions standards in the US knocked it down to 130-ish. I've heard euro-spec D's are actually pretty darned quick. Is this the case? Is there any particular reason US D's can't be restored to their original parrameters? I understand the Catalytic Converter took alot of the blame, but modern Cat's are much higher flow than what would have been about in the 80's...

[ramblinmike]

DMC California has a set of cams that, with an aftermarket exhaust, will get you close to 200hp. It's on my 'someday' list.

DMC-CA Cams (http://www.dmccal.com/102707hp_high_performance_cams.html)

[Twilight_Fenrir]

DMC California has a set of cams that, with an aftermarket exhaust, will get you close to 200hp. It's on my 'someday' list.

DMC-CA Cams (http://www.dmccal.com/102707hp_high_performance_cams.html)

Wow... that's impressive.... especially to pass emissions in CA. So-added to my list as well.

Just for idle curiousity... what's the average fuel economy of a straight stock, 5-spd D?

[ramblinmike]

Wow... that's impressive.... especially to pass emissions in CA. So-added to my list as well.

Just for idle curiousity... what's the average fuel economy of a straight stock, 5-spd D?

My bone-stock D gets 25 on the highway all day long. Don't know about city mpg.

[TTait]

As you already work on cars, don't let the fact its not GM worry you. If you have a set of tools and can read a manual, you'll be just fine. Its just another car in that regard.

As far as engines rotting from the inside out - nah. That's the rare exception, not the rule. These are durable engines if you take care of them even a little. You don't need to worry about the engine really (more below). I have two D's - they each sat untouched for about a dozen years each with fuel in the tank -one was stored outside and the other I'm not sure.

Both cars needed a lot of mechanical freshening up, but once the fuel system was cleaned up properly and fluids checked, both fired up right away - even with vintage belts and ignition components etc. The engines on the cars are pretty good is my point.

I'm saying you shouldn't sweat the engine because I've got a suggestion for you. Go out and find your driver, and a less expensive one if you need to. Ask the owner to make sure the engine is cold when you get there, and drive it long enough to let it completely warm up. When your done, shut it off and then see if it starts again. Then give the rest of the car a good look over. When your ready to leave a while later, start it again one last time if you're still interested. (There is a pretty good checklist available for evaluating a D before purchase.)

What I'd suggest for you is a car that runs and drives, but maybe is suffering a bit aesthetically. Maybe the seats and interior are shot. Maybe it has a few dings here and there even. While dings are a bit harder to repair than on any other car, they still can be repaired in most cases (one of my cars had dings on every panel, and all of them save one (a crease actually) were nicely repaired for $500 - and the crease is 99% better.

Get the car and assume that your going to be putting money into it on a regular basis. As mechanical problems come up (and they will), put your time and money toward addressing them. When you hit a period where its reliable and not in need of immediate repair, buy some headliners, a few more months with no trouble, get seat skins. Assume that the next month you will end up replacing the alternator perhaps, interrupting your aesthetic upgrades for a while. Eventually you'll get the car to a point where your very confident in it mechanically, and you've addressed all the aesthetic issues you need to - but you did it as a constant burn, you didn't have to put $7000 down at one time. Even then set cash aside - it is a 30 year old car.

If you instead get a clean car that hasn't run in 10 years, you may spend $300 to put it on the road, or it could be $8k, and you just won't know, and may not realize until you have plopped down the first $4k.

It sounds like there is little chance you will keep the car 100% stock - but base your decisions on what to change on your experience with your car, not necessarily what you read here.

Now, about the cams giving you an extra 70hp.... hmmm. I have those cams in my 5 speed. Lets say that the cams will take the car from "utilitarian" all the way up to "fun". Is it a monster? No. Not a monster and not really close. Its faster than my prius, but I wouldn't race for pinks with most anything else. Its fun, not quick. Without the cams, its utilitarian. I have not had the car on a dyno, but I'd be happy to in the name of science. Anyone here that wants to pick up the tab - I'll be glad to give you or publish the results. I'm generally happy just knowing its more fun to drive, I'm not sweating the actual numbers.

Most of the driving experience from the car is derived not from the horsepower, but from the handling, the road feel, and from the constant interaction of other drivers. You will rarely stop at a light without the folks giving you a look over, a thumbs up, or a gesture to roll down the window. Its virtually impossible to fill up the gas without making a new friend.

If you have a corvette, some people will like it, many won't notice, and some will be sure you are compensating for a small external displacement. Buy a porsche and other Porche owners will be your buddies, and others may wonder how your mid life crisis is going. I know when I find myself driving next to an 80's monte carlo I just expect the guy to cut me off.

I have only ever had one guy come up to me that didn't love the car - he was a lawyer with a Dino in the garage that he's never going to pay anyone to put on the road for him. He tried to act aloof, but he still came over and asked questions for about 10 minutes.

After 6 years of ownership, there are about 1000 people out there with photos of themselves either with or sitting in my car, and thats the photos I was there for. When you drive this car you are an ambassador of the brand, and its really a loved and mysterious brand. Its a major part of the ownership experience, at least for me.

Anyway - Don't worry too much about the mechanical issues with the car. If you can adjust a carb, you can learn to troubleshoot k-jet.

Until then keep reading and asking questions as you go.

Tom