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RamblinDMC
02-12-2016, 02:45 PM
Has anyone attempted a 3.0L PRV build with a carb setup? It's been on my mind the last few days. I'd love to build something with triple Weber carbs, velocity stacks, forged internals, Spec 1 exhaust, and an aggressive cam. It'd be a great project to start after college. Maybe I'll do a manual swap too.

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

Delorean Industries
02-12-2016, 03:05 PM
Honestly you would probably have more money in the webers compared to using the 3.0 manifold with existing rails and MS II.

DMCVegas
02-12-2016, 05:26 PM
Agreed. I even tried contacting the Alpine club in the UK about manifolds, and they don't supply them because they're so scarce. TWM Induction used to make modular intake manifold kits for the B28F PRV that could either attach fuel rails or Webber Carbs, and then include stacks, cold air boxes for custom intakes, velocity stacks, the whole shebang. And they had a really extensive catalog of various engines they could provide this for. Again, all modular and interchangeable.

But then Borla bought them out, and it's EFI only. Damn shame too. They have all the parts to cheaply carb (triple-deuce or 6 single ports), or fuel inject our engines (and many, MANY others), but refuse to produce them at all. According to them, carburetors are a dying breed. There's more interest now in converting engines over to EFI than converting, or even maintaining carbs. Sign of the times I'm afraid.

Delorean Industries
02-12-2016, 05:27 PM
Sign of forward progress I'm afraid. :)

DMCVegas
02-12-2016, 06:59 PM
Sign of forward progress I'm afraid. :)

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/8/82/Agreed.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120604132132

RamblinDMC
02-12-2016, 10:21 PM
I really wanted to try to build something old school.
I love this setup that somebody was building for a Renault Alpine.
39682

Oh and Josh, Spec 1 will work on any PRV right?

DMCVegas
02-12-2016, 11:19 PM
The problem with that engine though is that it's a 2.7L Carbureted. It has different heads with larger intake ports because it doesn't have any bosses for the K-Jetronic Fuel Injectors. So I'm not sure that manifold would fit.

Now if you absolutely insist, you might have an option here. (http://www.chadil.com/en/intake-manifolds/253-manifold-volvo-prv.html)

But be prepared, because it looks like they're charging 450,00 per side, for a total of 900,00 , or a bit over $1,000. On top of that, you've still got to get your carburetors. Judging by their prices, that's probably going to be around another $1,500 or so, for about $2,500 as a rough starting estimate, which also doesn't count other miscellaneous parts.

Now comparatively, the 2.7L PRV from the Alpine also had higher compression. So you're going to need some new performance cams at minimum with shaved heads. Which unfortunately because of the K-Jet design of the more restrictive intake ports, you're not going to experience the full benefit. You could counter this with some Eagle Premier 3.0L heads and matching intake manifolds from the same site above, but the odd-fire internals must be kept, and you need to figure out if you can even drill out the head to mount the distributor.

Now I'm not accounting for other costs like the exhaust system. Because even if you just wanted to stick with EFI or CI Fuel Injection you'd be buying those anyway. Possibly the same with the performance cams as well. But still, be it EFI or Carburetor, you're gonna have that $2,500 (and even add the cost of cams if you opt for a direct 3.0L swap) for your delivery system to play with in a project that is going to set you back a few thousand dollars.

Now I will tell you this. What you're looking to do, it's not impossible by any means. But I would warn you first to do a serious self evaluation before you begin. And that would be that you must figure out "why" you are wanting to do this.

If you are looking for cheap horsepower, this isn't for you. I would strongly discourage you from attempting this at all. We've been looking for cheap horsepower for the past 35 years. Someone would have found it by now.

However, if you're looking for a challenge that is purposefully NOT easy, then yes, this is for you.

It's like they say about fishermen and their 3 stages: At first a fisherman wants to catch all of the fish that he can. Then he wants to catch the biggest fish that he can. Until finally, he wants only to catch the most difficult fish that he can. It's the same thing with car repair. We start out wanting to work on and restore or customize any car that we can. As we move along, we want to build the biggest and best car that we can! Until finally, we want to work on the most difficult and challenging car that we can. Not something that we can just pick-up parts at the local AutoZone for, let alone even have delivered over night. But something rare. Something that is difficult and requires real old fashioned work. Something where you're acquiring parts from swap meets, or even overseas. Where you're not just Googling a website, but you're following down leads. You're not bolting-on some parts, you're cross-referencing, experimenting, filing, and even machining.

If that is where you are at, and you are fully aware of the challenge which lies ahead of you, I sincerely encourage you to go for it. But only if you're fully aware of what you're getting into beforehand.

Delorean Industries
02-12-2016, 11:44 PM
Yes it will fit 2.7 2.8 and 3.0 head configurations.

BABIS
02-13-2016, 04:58 AM
there is also this kit from the UK Alpine's crowd
3968839689

DMCVegas
02-13-2016, 07:24 AM
there is also this kit from the UK Alpine's crowd
3968839689

But again, does it require a core, and will it fit the 2.8L?

BABIS
02-13-2016, 08:12 AM
But again, does it require a core, and will it fit the 2.8L?

no core, it will fit the 2.8 heads, the 3.0 heads will need 2 adapter plates

DMCVegas
02-13-2016, 01:05 PM
no core, it will fit the 2.8 heads, the 3.0 heads will need 2 adapter plates

That would be a great option. Do you have a link?

Patrick C
02-13-2016, 06:34 PM
That would be a great option. Do you have a link?

http://www.renaultalpine.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7357

RamblinDMC
02-13-2016, 08:20 PM
I like that setup for the Alpine. Combine that with a freshly rebuilt 3.0 L. That'd be awesome. Are there any other camshaft options for the 3.0 L?

DMCVegas
02-14-2016, 07:56 PM
I like that setup for the Alpine. Combine that with a freshly rebuilt 3.0 L. That'd be awesome. Are there any other camshaft options for the 3.0 L?

Not as far as I know. Plus, there is still the ignition system to consider on the even-fire engine...

DMCVegas
02-14-2016, 08:08 PM
http://www.renaultalpine.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7357

http://i1165.photobucket.com/albums/q593/DMCVegas/ManifoldQA_zps1szbk69k.jpg

Something may have changed since I last spoke with JL Engineering, but you'd need to call or write first before getting your hopes on this one up.

Josh
02-15-2016, 01:45 AM
What 3.0 are you using? Im not sure if this has already been mentioned.

If you are using the 3.0 from a premier / monaco you will need to figure out how to make the distributor advance. The stock distributor does not do this. You could swap on 2.8 heads and allow for the 2.8 distributor. But then you have odd fire cams with an even fire crank. So you would need to swap out the crank and run full odd fire. Unless i'm missing something here.

You could also run carbs and run coil pack ignition with megajolt. Hell of a funky setup though.

DMCVegas
02-15-2016, 08:55 AM
What 3.0 are you using? Im not sure if this has already been mentioned.

If you are using the 3.0 from a premier / monaco you will need to figure out how to make the distributor advance. The stock distributor does not do this.

And that is only on the early '88 & '89 3.0L PRV engine that had the distributor mounted on the end of the Right Cam Shaft. The '90-'92 utilized a Distributorless Ignition System.

RamblinDMC
02-15-2016, 11:00 AM
So I guess my best option would be the engine that uses the coil packs. I'll need the ignition ECU from the vehicle as well right?

DMCVegas
02-15-2016, 12:04 PM
So I guess my best option would be the engine that uses the coil packs. I'll need the ignition ECU from the vehicle as well right?

It doesn't matter which engine you use, because...the ECU probably will not work with what you're doing...

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/projectdelorean/et0501.html

I can't find the page with the quotes, but he wired up the Eagle Premier's entire ECU and Wiring harness, and it never worked. He had to go with an Electromotive System.

DMCVegas
02-15-2016, 12:48 PM
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not shooting anything down because I'm some sort of purist that is throwing up roadblocks to convince you to NOT modify your car. I fully support modification and making something yours. It's just that you've got to really be aware of what you're getting yourself into here. Because there is no simple solution.

If it were me, I would look to acquire a set of those 3.0L heads, and see if I could drill out the left Cylinder Head to see if I could mount the 2.8L Distributor. Once that is verified, source yourself a carburetor manifold, and see about getting that Alpine kit. From there, get the performance cams, shave the heads to increase compression and to index them properly, and then proceed to port/polish the heads.

EFI is also an option too.

You would then achieve having yourself a nice, unique PRV either way, but it's your choice here.

But just realize that it ain't gonna be cheap, and it's not the most economically efficient way to get additional power.

Here, take a look at this sign:

http://offroadtrailguide.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/1.jpg

Two roads to go: Alamo, and Mormon Well. To be fair, this IS a bit up Mormon Well, so it's kind of showing you were you came from. Highway 93 is the road back into Vegas (Vegas isn't *that* far, as that is just to the center of downtown and not the valley). But at the end of that other road is Alamo, Nevada. Now what is interesting is that despite appearing to be a shorter distance away, it's actually quicker, and more fuel efficient to turn around, go back down to Vegas, across the beltway, UP I-15, and then turn off and go up 95. And BOOM! You're at Pahranagat and Alamo.

It "looks" like it's shorter to go down that road, but it's not. Here is what awaits you:

http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/85/74/46_big.jpg

So why would anyone take that road? It's not easy. It will be slower, there are more dangers, and there is no cell phone reception. You need a CB to communicate back to the Ranger Station, or to other people if any can here you. Oh, and you just might need to have a hand-held unit so if you break down, you can walk up part of a mountain to broadcast back. You need a 4x4, ground clearance, some skid plates, extra food, water, fuel, emergency supplies, tools, and maybe even a few other things...

So again, why in the hell would anyone take such a path? Because they can. And they love the journey. Google some of those locations on the sign to see what they really look like. All of those things you would miss by going back to the safety of the city.

Just like swapping an engine, or building one of your own. I'm not going to stop you from doing anything, but I will at least ask you to think about your goals, and what it is that you want. Just like the road to Alamo, it seems like a short cut, but it's not. It costs more to take that path, and there is no special reward waiting for you. Just like trying to extract more power out of a PRV. There is no shortcut to cheap and easy performance. But if you want some personal satisfaction, and perhaps maybe even a bit of personal glory, then you may very well enjoy that path. But just like how there is no cell phone reception, you won't have the same easy access to help. Just like how I said I don't know if you can drill to mount that Ignition Distributor, I've no idea what the road conditions that lie ahead for you are. Maybe someone else does and can help act as a spotter for you on that trail when the terrain gets too rough. Maybe you just might need to turn around if that trail is impassable too...

I just want you to be prepared.

opethmike
02-15-2016, 06:19 PM
Why all of this silly hassle about drilling out and making an archaic mechanical distributor happen? Megajolt is cheap, installation is straight forward, along with a host of other advantages.

DMCVegas
02-15-2016, 07:38 PM
If you want to do that, go right ahead. I brought it up because there was already talk of using the Eagle Premier's distributor to accommodate a traditional mechanical one. You could absolutely install a DIS if you wanted to. It's up to you.

Another option would be the DIS. But if you're using DIS, that means you've already installed a system to meter ignition, why not just tap into that and use EFI? You could then stick with the even-fire 3.0L. Or just swap over the 3.0L's heads and intake manifold to be paired with the performance cams.

If someone is doing a build like this just for the sake of doing so, there really are no wrong answers as long as everything works in the end. But again, that is precisely the type of fantasy build we're talking about here, isn't it?

opethmike
02-15-2016, 09:31 PM
Of course there are wrong answers. They are the answers that do not agree with mine.

opethmike
02-15-2016, 09:33 PM
Another option would be the DIS. But if you're using DIS, that means you've already installed a system to meter ignition, why not just tap into that and use EFI?

I have a good answer for that. Because DIS is waaaaaaaaaaaaay simpler to setup and get running right then doing an entire EFI system from the get go. Lots and lots of people in the muscle car community do it for that very reason. They keep the carb, and go DIS for its benefits. Simple, easy, and especially peasy.

Josh
02-16-2016, 09:20 AM
And that is only on the early '88 & '89 3.0L PRV engine that had the distributor mounted on the end of the Right Cam Shaft. The '90-'92 utilized a Distributorless Ignition System.

Its the same engine either way. The 90+ just was missing the distributor and had a freeze plug covering the hole in the timing cover. Distributor or not, its no good for a computerless carb setup.

Farrar
02-16-2016, 02:32 PM
You're going to end up spending thousands of dollars, anyway, so unless you're in a great hurry to get on the road, I suggest you build an engine that will last and perform well:

- Bottom end and camshafts from Volvo B280 (even fire, oil-to-water oil cooler, and cross-bolted main bearings are why you want the bottom end).
- Liners, heads, throttle body, intake manifold, and exhaust manifolds from 3.0L.
- Electronic engine management of your choice.

Farrar

opethmike
02-16-2016, 03:11 PM
You're going to end up spending thousands of dollars, anyway, so unless you're in a great hurry to get on the road, I suggest you build an engine that will last and perform well:

- Bottom end and camshafts from Volvo B280 (even fire, oil-to-water oil cooler, and cross-bolted main bearings are why you want the bottom end).
- Liners, heads, throttle body, intake manifold, and exhaust manifolds from 3.0L.
- Electronic engine management of your choice.

Farrar

This sounds like it could be a boost monster.

Farrar
02-16-2016, 04:26 PM
This sounds like it could be a boost monster.

It certainly could be, but normally aspirated it should yield you 170-200 smooth horsepower, according to the folks on various Volvo forums I've scoured over the years.

opethmike
02-16-2016, 05:24 PM
A real, honest 200 (not the bullshit that the vendors claim) in a DMC would be pretty nice. My Esprit weighs 2,700 pounds, and makes 215, and goes like f'ing stink.

Farrar
02-16-2016, 07:13 PM
- Bottom end and camshafts from Volvo B280 (even fire, oil-to-water oil cooler, and cross-bolted main bearings

Clarification: only bearings #2 and #3 are cross-bolted. (Source (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=238339))

content22207_2
02-23-2016, 02:36 PM
Don't know if you noticed Farrar's tagline: "DeLorean status: awaiting engine replacement".

He and I are working on a carbureted 3.0 swap of his own. It differs from your project in that we aren't looking to build a performance engine -- we are working on proof of concept for a low impact conversion. Our goal is the least engineering and labor possible to get a 3.0 installed and running in his car (his current 2.8 is very sick, potentially not worth salvaging). Towards that end we will reuse his existing 2.8 intake manifold and carburetor, adapted to fit differences in the 3.0 intake valley. We hope to mount a hall effect equipped ignition distributor to the front of the engine, sending timing info to his current Bosch ignition module. Rather than swapping out lower engine castings, which requires unbolting the main bearings, we intend to adapt the 3.0 lower casting already on the engine to fit a DeLorean crossmember (I've already done something similar on my own PRV engine). Sanden 5 chamber 3.0 A/C compressors are available that will accept his DeLorean back and hoses (3.0 compressors bolt up totally differently from 2.8 ).

We're still in the planning phase. Actual work is scheduled for late spring/summer. If our project works as hoped, the final result certainly won't be the most powerful 3.0 conversion, but it will be light years ahead of his current sick engine.

That said, there are certain advantages all 3.0's have over their 2.8 predecessors, irrespective of installation particulars:
- Even firing order
- Slightly larger displacement
- Hydraulic self adjusting valve lash
- Potentially better aluminum (there's an Internet rumor that Douvrin changed their casting formula in the mid 80's)

Bill Robertson
#5939

JohnLane
07-03-2016, 04:45 PM
I had a pair of IDA-3 carbs on a three liter in the '90s.... It was fun.

Made an unbelievable amount of intake noise... Not enough power to justify dumping injection for it + carburators icing anytime weather conditions are right for that. At the time I was commuting to Seattle so many wet days that were just-so for carburator icing. Throttle seems stiff under my foot and it won't decelerate... Stomp on the gas to break up the ice.

We're I to do that again I'd get the throttle bodies and run injection with 50mm throttle plates.

Need lots of static compression, fancy heads, exhaust (headers ect) and big cams to make it worthwhile.

content22207_2
07-03-2016, 08:51 PM
Farrar lives in New Orleans -- I really don't think ice will be an issue.

Rust definitely, but not ice.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Delorean Industries
07-03-2016, 08:58 PM
Farrar lives in New Orleans -- I really don't think ice will be an issue.

Rust definitely, but not ice.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Lol. Truth

content22207_2
07-03-2016, 09:35 PM
Humidity in New Orleans is outrageous. Farrar can't use metal coat hangers because they leave rust stains on his clothes.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Delorean Industries
07-03-2016, 11:06 PM
Humidity in New Orleans is outrageous. Farrar can't use metal coat hangers because they leave rust stains on his clothes.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I know it is terrible. He has a fight on his hands down there .

Farrar
07-04-2016, 10:05 PM
Farrar can't use metal coat hangers because they leave rust stains on his clothes.

To be fair, that was after Katrina when my apartment had no power, and therefore no air conditioning/dehumidifying, for over four months.

But yes, rust is a problem. We don't have road salt here, but #2613 has acquired some frame rust since it moved to southeast Louisiana in 2007. And my tools, which were rust-free for decades in North Carolina garages, have acquired some surface rust in my garage here over just a few years. I have taken to saving those little containers of desiccant from pill bottles and putting them in my toolboxes to try to slow the rust by absorbing some of the humidity. Time will tell if it was a good idea or just wasted effort.

I'm in NC right now to visit my folks over the Independence Day holiday. The difference is amazing -- it can be the same temperature, but the heat index is a negligible increase. In Charlotte, it can be 95F and feel like 98F, but in New Orleans with the humidity so high, 95F can give you a heat index reading of 110F. It's ridiculous. How anyone survived down here before air conditioning is beyond me.

Happy Independence Day!

content22207_2
07-04-2016, 11:32 PM
Don't sweat rust on your tools. Unless you bought them at Harbor Freight, they are made of high carbon alloy steel. Surface rust won't slough off or penetrate any further. They are basically like railroad track rails (nobody paints millions of miles of train tracks to prevent rust).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
03-10-2019, 07:22 PM
Are there any other camshaft options for the 3.0 L?

I know this is reviving an ancient thread, but in case anyone finds this and wonders what the answer is to that question...

Yes. Bill and I discovered that the 2.8L camshafts and the 3.0L camshafts are interchangeable. On my 3.0L carb build we used the 2.8L camshafts to drive a distributor and fuel pump, because the 3.0L camshafts did not have a gear for a distributor or a lobe for a fuel pump. Used the sprockets from the 3.0L.