PDA

View Full Version : 3.0L engine swap



Pages : [1] 2 3

Farrar
08-03-2016, 02:09 PM
I guess this is as good a place as any to document my car's engine swap. I put it under the "Carb" subcategory because it will be carbureted.

To make a long story short:

I bought #2613 in 2007. At the time, it was stock, except for the exhaust. I started having problems with mysterious engine death, and after trying to troubleshoot and swap out K-Jet parts to no avail, I decided to swap K-Jet for carburetion. This was achieved in 2008, just before DCS Gettysburg: I limped #2613 up to Bill's house in NC and we performed surgery in his driveway.

Thereafter I had no fuel problems, but #2613 started having other problems: on my way home, the distributor cap caught fire, resulting in the car being off the road for several months. After resuscitation in early 2009, block rot reared its head. I patched a hole with Moroso A/B Engine Epoxy, and it wasn't long before oil reappeared in the engine valley. I patched it, too, and within weeks engine oil showed up in the valley again.

Circumstances conspired to keep #2613 off the road for a while: a/c failure combined with an increased work schedule meant that it took a while for me to swap out the original high-pressure hose that blew. Over a period of several months, I replaced all hoses and the compressor, taking the opportunity to convert from R-12 to R-134a. In the process of swapping out hoses, I caused a breach in the evaporator, so the evaporator was replaced, and a new VOV was installed, several more months later. All the while, the engine was more or less OK, except for leaking oil into the engine valley. I drove the car in this condition for some time, until the air conditioning failed again.

In 2013, while diagnosing and repairing the a/c leak, #2613 developed a new symptom: the engine would start and run for 30 minutes or so, and then slow down until it died and would not re-start for at least a couple of hours. I would go for a test drive and get towed home. I would check fuel, air, and spark, and all seemed OK. I was told that my car was exhibiting the "classic" symptom of pickup coil failure in the ignition distributor. Despite essentially equal resistance readings across the original and replacement coils, the pickup coil was replaced with a new one - in a Volvo distributor kindly provided by Bill Robertson.

In 2014, I replaced the ballast resistor with one matched for my (MSD) ignition coil. I was getting flaky readings from the 1981 resistor, so I thought a new one might help with the no-start problem. It didn't.

Despite everything I'd done, taking photographs etc., to make sure that I could get the distributor close enough to start the engine upon reinstallation, the engine still didn't start. I was told the only way to make certain that it was in the right place was to turn the engine by hand to line up the timing marks on the pulley and the distributor. To do this, I had to remove part of the car's 2004-installed "Performance Exhaust," which by now was very rusty. The earliest incarnation of "Performance Exhaust" had a very thick muffler, which prevented me from getting a wrench on the crankshaft nut. I removed the exhaust except for the headers, because the connections at the muffler were rusted solid. At this time, I decided to replace the rusty exhaust with stainless steel. I removed the headers and started planning my new "homebrew" exhaust.

In 2014-2015, I was working full-time, attending college two classes at a time three semesters a year, and getting ready for my wedding. It took over a year to save up the money for new exhaust parts and find time to install them. After installation, I made sure everything was lined up for proper initial timing, and decided to change the oil before starting the engine. The oil was full of coolant. When I checked, the coolant overflow bottle was bone dry.

Knowing now that the engine had either a failed cylinder liner or a bad head gasket, I decided nonetheless to see if I could get the engine running. The engine still would not start. All electrical connections were checked. The battery was charged. The engine did not start. I decided to check the spark plugs. There was nothing unusual there, except for one that broke off in the engine. I noticed that when I filled the coolant, it poured out the back of the engine: the rear main seal had failed.

In early 2015, I gave up entirely on #2613's original engine. The community's advice was to replace, rather than repair, considering that the engine had at one point been overheated (something the previous owner never told me, but was evident from the missing plastic screen at the bottom of the oil filler), and the recurring/worsening block rot. Rebuilding an engine with block rot simply made no sense.

May 2016: the wedding is over with, I've graduated college, my workload has decreased, and now it's time to get #2613 back on the road.

The car and the replacement 3.0L engine are both in NC at Bill's house, waiting for the two of us to get the time and parts together to install the engine. I imagine Bill will eventually chime in here on this thread, but for now I can tell you that he has figured out a way to use the car's current fuel system by way of adapter plates, and he has figured out a way to use an ignition distributor that is not computer controlled. For now, I am using the Premier/Monaco service manual to try to figure out what parts I will need to buy and bring with me to Bill's garage. So far, I have figured out that I will need:

- serpentine belt
- a/c compressor
- alternator (or 6-groove pulley)
- replacement parts for whatever else on the car has failed while sitting

The car sat for over a year with a quarter tank of (ethanol-free) fuel in it. The fuel went bad. I added five gallons of fresh fuel in a plan to let it mix with the old fuel and then pump it out, removing varnish bit by bit as I repeated this process until the fuel looked good and the varnish was no longer present, but I was only able to do that once before the car was hauled to NC in March 2016.

To make a short story even shorter:

#2613's revival is tentatively scheduled for next month. I will document progress here on this thread for anyone who's interested in following the process, and also as a reference for myself in the future. Stay tuned.

Josh
08-03-2016, 02:26 PM
I have an a/c compressor, send me an offer!

Farrar
08-03-2016, 05:48 PM
I have an a/c compressor, send me an offer!

Josh,

Thanks for your reply to the serpentine belt question in the other thread - I've made a note of it. :)

Is your a/c compressor under warranty, or is it original to your discarded 3.0L engine?

Josh
08-03-2016, 11:45 PM
Neither I suppose haha.

It is a rebuilt unit I bought when I originally did my swap. It was mounted on my engine but since I never hooked up the ac it was just a big idler.

Farrar
08-04-2016, 10:30 AM
It is a rebuilt unit I bought when I originally did my swap.

In that case, I think I'll pass. Don't take it personally - I just haven't had much luck with used or rebuilt parts. (So I'm taking a big gamble with the 3.0L engine...) Thanks for offering! :)

Farrar
08-04-2016, 11:36 AM
Since my alternator was known to be good the last time I drove the car, I have opted to replace the pulley instead of the entire alternator.

To anyone looking for information on a certain part, I highly recommend using RockAuto's website. Thanks to their drill-down feature, I was able to get the following information about the alternator, using a 1990 Dodge Monaco as the reference:

- 96 amps
- Delco CS130
- 6-groove pulley
- internally regulated
- 3:00 regulator plug position

However, the Premier/Monaco service manual includes a chart indicating that the 3.0L PRV actually used one of three different alternators:

45124

So it's good to have as many sources of information as possible. :)

I bought a DMCHouston alternator for #2613 some time ago. It has the same footprint as the Delco CS130, and it worked the last time I tested it. I believe it is the 105-amp alternator.

Using the information from RockAuto and the service manual as a reference, I found a site online (alternatorparts.com) which sells alternator pulleys. It looks like this one will fit:

45123

If anyone (Josh?) could measure their 3.0L pulley and see if those dimensions are correct, I'd appreciate it. I'm pretty sure it is sized correctly. At $24, it's a friendly price. But it never hurts to make absolutely sure. :)

Nicholas R
08-04-2016, 04:55 PM
Congrats on the wedding and graduating! It's crazy how much life can come in waves. That compounded with the unfortunate luck you've had with the original engine certainly sounds pretty exhausting. Glad to hear you finally have time to put into the car. Sounds like you've got a pretty good plan laid out. I'm looking forward to following your progress. Best of luck! :thumbup: :wrenchin:

Farrar
08-04-2016, 05:52 PM
Thanks, Nicholas! Life is full of adventure, isn't it?

Back on topic, slightly: This is not directly related to my engine swap, but since it's part of getting #2613 back on the road, I thought I'd mention it. When my car was towed up to NC, it was on a trailer part of the way and a tow dolly the rest of the way. In order to use the tow dolly, the drive axles had to be removed. When he looked at them, Bill Robertson noticed that, on one axle, one of #2613's CV boots is torn, and on the other axle, one CV joint is missing its end cap. I knew about the torn boot on the driver's side, but I could never figure out why grease was being flung on both sides every time I made a test drive. Well, now I know. Bill is donating an end cap to #2613. I've decided to provide the car with new CV joints and boots as long as it's getting a new engine.

It's relatively common knowledge that DMC-12 CV joints are identical to Porsche 930 (a.k.a. 911 Turbo) CV joints. When I was searching for CV joints online, I found a website called Pacific Customs. They sell a set of four Porsche 930 CV joints (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PC&Product_Code=porsche930cv-empi-1-4) for $199, which I consider to be a reasonable price. They also sell "Mini Max" cone-shaped CV axle boots (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PC&Product_Code=ac501111b-930) and flanges made to match those boots (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PC&Product_Code=ac501111fktk-930). The aforementioned Nicholas R (of LS swap fame) used these boots and flanges on his amazing car, and the fact that he used them is enough endorsement for me.

I plan to take it one step further by adding grease rings (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PC&Product_Code=ac501930gr). This will make it possible to grease the CV joints without removing them, which I thought was impossible until I saw this product. Added coolness factor: the grease rings come with longer bolts to make up the 7/16" difference, and with plugs in case the fit is too tight to leave the grease fittings on while the vehicle is in use.

All of these parts together will cost $518, which is more than sending my current axles off to be done up with new CV joints, but I think it will be worth the added expense.

Side note: the same company also sells a pulse generator for a 16 pulse per revolution speedometer (http://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac957812.html). There's a thread about this product elsewhere on DMCTalk, but I thought I'd mention it because I think it's pretty cool. Who knows, maybe DMCHouston will make it the centerpiece of a future electric speedo conversion kit. ;)

Back on topic: I am also shopping online for an a/c compressor. The Premier/Monaco engine did not use mounting brackets for the Sanden SD709 compressor; instead it bolted directly to the engine:

45129

This means that I won't be able to use the a/c compressor currently installed in #2613. It's only a few years old and works just fine, but that's life!

Bill Robertson has sourced a head (back plate) which should allow the DMC-12 hoses to attach to the back of a 7-cylinder Sanden compressor, which is good because the SD709 with proper mount holes I found (http://max-ac.com/New-CompressorbrSanden-SD709-6-Groove-Direct-Mount-w-Service-Ports-On-Rear_p_4876.html) at the best price has the wrong head:

45130

Fortunately, the gasket is metal and can be reused. Here's the head which -- in theory -- can be used to attach the Monaco/Premier SD709 compressor to the DeLorean hoses, as found on eBay by Bill:

45131

That's $35 for the head, and $175 for the compressor. If it works, I'd say I scored a bargain!

Gotta love shopping for parts online. Right? :)

content22207_2
08-04-2016, 09:24 PM
Bill is donating an end cap to #2613.

I am?

You may want to throttle back your jets on all these accessories -- there's a lot of work to do before then. I don't even know what length serpentine belt you'll end up with. I've got to get Bryne Heninger out of the way first (after I finish repairing a bunch of canoes at the summer camp), then I'll start work on your engine. Perhaps the weather will have cooled off slightly by then.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
08-04-2016, 09:45 PM
I am?

Good point - "donate" is the wrong word. You said you'd find one on eBay for me. I will happily reimburse you, of course.


You may want to throttle back your jets on all these accessories -- there's a lot of work to do before then. I don't even know what length serpentine belt you'll end up with.

According to Josh (who had a 3.0L PRV before he had an LS), a 6PK2120 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CAXI8Y) is the correct length for a 3.0L with the power steering pump removed.

Don't worry, Bill -- I haven't bought the parts yet. I'm just making my shopping list and documenting things along the way for future reference. With both of my cars out of service and only half a job, I have some time on my hands at the moment.

content22207_2
08-04-2016, 10:25 PM
According to Josh (who had a 3.0L PRV before he had an LS), a 6PK2120 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CAXI8Y) is the correct length for a 3.0L with the power steering pump removed.

There will be very little standard about this installation, accessories included. Once they're bolted up I will run a measuring tape around them to get a belt length. Parts houses sell belts in half inch increments.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
08-04-2016, 11:34 PM
I knew Bill would eventually find his way to this thread. :)

DMC5180
08-05-2016, 01:47 AM
Farrar,

The SD-709 is an (R-12 compressor). See if you can find an SD7H15 (134a compressor) in the same configuration. If you end up swapping heads the new head will come with a new gasket. 22 ft lb head bolt torque.

Farrar
08-05-2016, 10:48 AM
The SD-709 is an. See if you can find an SD7H15 in the same configuration.

Thanks! That's already taken care of. If you look carefully at the photo I posted you can see that it is an R-134a unit.

Farrar
08-09-2016, 11:19 PM
I can't contain my excitement. I am so thrilled that I will have, potentially, a reliably running vehicle in my possession for the first time since June.

Tell Heninger to hurry up, Bill. :P

Farrar
08-15-2016, 10:38 AM
Update: I've got steady work for the month of September, and I can't pass up that opportunity, so work will be pushed back until October. (For those of you not in the know: I dropped to half-time with my curent employer when I went back to school in August '15, to graduate in May '16. He is now refusing to hire me back full-time so I am catching what I can while I seek other employment.)

Stay tuned...

content22207_2
08-16-2016, 04:21 PM
Take your time. July was the hottest month in recorded history. August isn't doing any better. Personally the idea of waiting until things cool off a little bit in the fall thrills me greatly.

Jib crane is out of service anyway (I am modifying it to use an electric winch).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
08-16-2016, 08:13 PM
Personally the idea of waiting until things cool off a little bit in the fall thrills me greatly.

Me, too.

Long range weather forecasts for your area predict highs in the upper 60s to lower 70s in the month of October, with chances of light rain showers most days and some possibilities of afternoon thunderstorms with slightly warmer weather toward the end of the month (mid to upper 70s to low 80s). Looks like it would be fine weather for working in a shady spot. :)

Seabee
08-29-2016, 10:10 PM
Congrats on the wedding and graduating! It's crazy how much life can come in waves. That compounded with the unfortunate luck you've had with the original engine certainly sounds pretty exhausting. Glad to hear you finally have time to put into the car. Sounds like you've got a pretty good plan laid out. I'm looking forward to following your progress. Best of luck! :thumbup: :wrenchin:


looking to do the 3.0 swap too, keep the thread going...


Dan

Josh
08-30-2016, 12:41 AM
looking to do the 3.0 swap too, keep the thread going...


Dan

I thought you were doing an LS swap?

Anyway the 3.0 is an easy mechanical swap, bolts in like the stock PRV

The wiring is where it gets tricky.

content22207_2
08-30-2016, 02:01 AM
the 3.0 is an easy mechanical swap, bolts in like the stock PRV

Only if you swap out lower engine castings (which requires unbolting the main bearings -- bearing caps are bolted through the lower casting). Rather than do that, Farrar will leave the 3.0 lower casting in place and mount it to a pair of engine cradle extensions like mine.

Note that 3.0 motor mounts bosses are shaped differently than DeLorean motor mounts (much shallower angle). DeLorean motor mounts have a big protrusion inside to compensate for their steeper boss angle. To use a 3.0 lower casting you need 3.0 motor mounts to go with it (big protrusion inside DeLorean motor mounts, combined with the shallower boss angle, lays the motor mount almost flat).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
08-31-2016, 01:00 PM
Let's not forget that this engine swap will be part of a larger project of putting my car back on the road after over two years. I will have to inspect many things and probably replace more than just the engine. Before transporting it to NC I put five gallons of fresh fuel in the tank to help dissolve old fuel varnish while it sits. But I am probably looking at replacing the fuel pump, fuel filter, and fuel line. Also the brake fluid is old and will need to be replaced, so at that time I will inspect the braking system and see if anything is stuck. Cooling system will have to be flushed and re-filled -- good opportunity to check for contaminants. I'll have to check all of the rubber hoses and bushings on the car which may have dry-rotted in the extreme heat of south Louisiana over the last couple of years. As Bill pointed out, I need new CV joints, too. And I'm sure there will be more things needing my attention that I can't even think of at the moment. So this thread will probably end up being about more than just swapping in the 3.0L engine (if it isn't already).

Josh
08-31-2016, 02:06 PM
Only if you swap out lower engine castings (which requires unbolting the main bearings -- bearing caps are bolted through the lower casting). Rather than do that, Farrar will leave the 3.0 lower casting in place and mount it to a pair of engine cradle extensions like mine.

Note that 3.0 motor mounts bosses are shaped differently than DeLorean motor mounts (much shallower angle). DeLorean motor mounts have a big protrusion inside to compensate for their steeper boss angle. To use a 3.0 lower casting you need 3.0 motor mounts to go with it (big protrusion inside DeLorean motor mounts, combined with the shallower boss angle, lays the motor mount almost flat).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Ive seen those mounts, they scare me. Basically the whole engine is mounted on a cantilever plate. Not to mention the plate is anchored by only two m8 bolts, with mounting holes that can strip out very easily.

content22207_2
08-31-2016, 09:31 PM
I think you've confused 3.0 motor mounts with DeLorean motor mounts. DeLorean motor mounts are held on with two 8mm bolts. 3.0 motor mounts have integrated 12mm studs: https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14192053_1232129153498999_3673062929333358800_n.jp g?oh=e6183e6978d357b351ed1d27f33070a7&oe=584E46EE

3.0 motor mounts are the same basic design as DeLorean mounts, but the metal is much thicker (3/16"). They are quite heavy duty. One interesting feature is the lower plate wraps around the upper plate as a fail safe: https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14142065_1232129213498993_262432541883173607_n.jpg ?oh=48cdd0225b5e5ee115738e005c292db3&oe=5846F0CA

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
11-29-2016, 05:27 PM
Update:

An ignition distributor has been test-fitted, and intake manifold adapter plates are being made.

Andrew
11-30-2016, 11:36 AM
Update:

An ignition distributor has been test-fitted, and intake manifold adapter plates are being made.

How did you set up the ignition distributor? I know a few different options have been explored.

Drive Stainless
11-30-2016, 11:54 AM
How did you set up the ignition distributor? I know a few different options have been explored.

Wait for it. LOL.

Farrar
11-30-2016, 01:23 PM
How did you set up the ignition distributor? I know a few different options have been explored.


Wait for it. LOL.

I guess Matt will keep everyone informed from now on.

Drive Stainless
11-30-2016, 01:26 PM
I guess Matt will keep everyone informed from now on.

I will not, but I was amazed by the solution.

Andrew
11-30-2016, 02:36 PM
I'm going to guess it involves a Ford distributor with a welded gear and a Duraspark control module. But that's just a guess :-)

Josh
11-30-2016, 03:11 PM
I still think MS would be much easier, but interested to see how you got a distributor strapped on there.

Farrar
11-30-2016, 05:21 PM
I still think MS would be much easier

Easier for you, maybe. I can't weld and I don't have the budget for EFI right now.

Josh
11-30-2016, 06:38 PM
Easier for you, maybe. I can't weld and I don't have the budget for EFI right now.

No need to weld for EFI if you have the 3.0 with the intake.

No one has used microsquirt on a delorean but it would work just fine and keep you in the $500us range.

DMCVegas
11-30-2016, 09:08 PM
My guess is one of the following:

You cut and grafted a drive gear onto the even-fire cam with an even-fire distributor (which I've seen, but I doubt you utilized).
You engineered an adapter and/or 3D printed up a custom distributor cap to make the first gen 3.0 distributor adjustable. This I doubt even more.
Most likely, you've swapped odd-fire crank & cams, then drilled the left cylinder bank to mount the 2.8L's distributor.

Josh
12-01-2016, 10:47 AM
My guess is one of the following:

You cut and grafted a drive gear onto the even-fire cam with an even-fire distributor (which I've seen, but I doubt you utilized).
You engineered an adapter and/or 3D printed up a custom distributor cap to make the first gen 3.0 distributor adjustable. This I doubt even more.
Most likely, you've swapped odd-fire crank & cams, then drilled the left cylinder bank to mount the 2.8L's distributor.


It was #1 mr scientist

opethmike
12-01-2016, 03:51 PM
That's Mr. Wizard to you, Joshy-poo!

Andrew
12-01-2016, 06:01 PM
Sounds like it was an interesting process! Pictures or it didn't happen!

Farrar
12-04-2016, 01:10 PM
No need to weld for EFI if you have the 3.0 with the intake.

I have been told many times that it is necessary to weld a 36-1 trigger wheel to the crankshaft pulley, and fabricate an appropriate bracket to mount the CPS. Maybe people were just messing with me, but I believed them.

By "intake," do you mean "intake manifold?" I do not have the 3.0L intake manifold.

Farrar
12-04-2016, 07:52 PM
47627
47628
47629
Photos courtesy of Bill Robertson.

DMC5180
12-04-2016, 09:40 PM
Are their two 90 degree bevel gears in the box?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
12-04-2016, 09:53 PM
47637

Delorean Industries
12-04-2016, 11:17 PM
That is a first.

Farrar
12-04-2016, 11:19 PM
N.B. The photos were posted in reverse chronological order. The photo "without the box" is using a Ford distributor for a test fit. The photo "with the box" is using an AMC/Jeep distributor, which is not as tall. This is a subtle yet important difference.

On another note - concerned with engine mounting, the decision has been made to swap the lower casing from my 2.8L onto the 3.0L.

DMC5180
12-04-2016, 11:35 PM
Any provisions for constant gear lubrication? This reminds me of our failure prone AD's, albeit much larger and robust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Josh
12-05-2016, 02:38 AM
I have been told many times that it is necessary to weld a 36-1 trigger wheel to the crankshaft pulley, and fabricate an appropriate bracket to mount the CPS. Maybe people were just messing with me, but I believed them.

By "intake," do you mean "intake manifold?" I do not have the 3.0L intake manifold.

The trigger wheel is certainly necessary, but i have a decent setup designed that bolts up.
Missing the intake manifold would hold you back.


This is certainly interesting. Very different. Like a few others have said I wonder how those gears will wear.

vwdmc16
12-05-2016, 02:58 AM
Yeah that is very creative!

Andrew
12-05-2016, 10:59 AM
That's awesome! Good work! Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying an 88 or 89 Eagle Engine's distributor setup?

Andrew
12-05-2016, 11:25 AM
Having just completed a lower crankcase swap a few weeks ago, I can attest to the fact that it isn't too horrible of a job. Just follow the directions to the t and take your time.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 11:57 AM
Any provisions for constant gear lubrication?

Grease goes in the box.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 12:04 PM
I wonder how those gears will wear.

So do I, but at least the distributor won't offer much resistance.

This is all uncharted territory. Lots of things are being figured out and dealt with piece by piece.

For example, since the decision has been made to swap out the lower crankcase, we know that the engine will sit in the same place as the stock engine. With that in mind, Bill put the AMC/Jeep distributor on #2613's current engine to check for clearance. As a result, the coolant expansion tank will have to move toward the front of the car a couple of inches. Same with the pipe and hose in that area. (N.B. Coolant hoses currently on #2613 are not stock size/shape; previous owner probably used "good enough" hoses from a local parts house. Since the hoses are pre-2007, they are being replaced anyway.)

47639

There is no deadline for this project, so any little hiccups that happen along the way can be dealt with in due course using as much time as needed.

DMC5180
12-05-2016, 12:13 PM
That's awesome! Good work! Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying an 88 or 89 Eagle Engine's distributor setup?

I thought all eagle premier engines were waste spark setups or was it just the later years?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Josh
12-05-2016, 01:34 PM
88, 89 and half of 90 had a "dumb" distributor
90 + had coil pack ignition.

I call it a "dumb" distributor as the rotor is directly connected to the cam with no provisions for advance. The computer controlled the spark advance in both cases. The timing cover from any year will accept this distributor, but it is not useful if you are trying to get away from any sort of computers in your car. It would require some sort of spark management and at that point it just makes sense to do coil pack ignition

DMCVegas
12-05-2016, 01:57 PM
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/181/907/Massimo-DAlema.jpg

That's...different. Not at all what I was expecting. It looks like a Whirly Pop got welded onto the engine.

It's also going to be noisy as hell with those straight-cut gears. Given that the face of the teeth is in constant contact because they are NOT helical, I've also no idea how long they'll last.



I thought all eagle premier engines were waste spark setups or was it just the later years?

Nope. The earlier engines from 1988 & 1989 at least had physical distributors (1986-1989 for 760 GLE Volvos and other PRVs). Renault decided to relocate the ignition distributors up to the front of the engine to make room for the EFI Manifold. However, while they used an off the shelf part shared across many other even-fire European engines that used the same setup, they are static, non-adjustable distributors that cannot be manually adjusted for spark advance and retard. This is what the caps look like:

http://s.ecrater.com/stores/95731/526cef41bc8f8_95731b.jpg

It mounts directly to the Timing Chain Cover the the location as seen, and the rotor inside is on the end of the cam shaft. Renault simply left it up to whomever purchased the engines to install a PCM that would control timing as needed. 4 years later everyone decided pretty much that if they were going to control spark anyway with the PCM, then why even bother with a distributor? So then they sealed the engine up and just went with waste spark.

Now take a look at that distributor cap above. Notice again how it is non-adjustable. If you could make that thing adjustable, you'd solve allot a problems many people have. And it wouldn't be hard. You'd just need a sliding adapter plate, and an extension for the rotor. You could convert the odd-fire engines to even. Or you could easily make 3.0L carbed engined, or aftermarket EFI using the stock hardware with a minimal amount of customization since you now have a simple bolt-on source for RPMs instead of having to fabricate up a trigger ring.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 02:27 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by a source of RPM signal, DMCVegas. Could you please explain? I'm having trouble visualizing it.

All I know is that the Dodge/Eagle 3.0L used a pulse ring on the flexplate, with the sensor mounted (I think) to the edge of the bellhousing.

DMCVegas
12-05-2016, 02:57 PM
The Blue wire from your distributor that feeds into the Engine ECU. That way the ECU can monitor the engine speed and replicate the Tach Feed that gets distributed to various other systems via the White/Slate wire. Including, and most important of all, to tell the Ignition Coil when to fire.

The manual says it's Blue, but it looks black to me coming off of the distributor. So I guess it's Blue inside of the harness... Anyway, the traditional version that our car uses has the pulse generator built-in to the unit. The revised Renault design for the 3.0L when the distributor went onto the end of the Camshaft, was never provisioned for the sensor to be installed there. So they decided to just go with the Trigger Ring down on the flywheel. So in your case, you'll need to use the pigtail that came with the aftermarket unit. That's not a big deal. But...

It brings up a question I have for you: What is the engine controller you're using now? The 2.8L engine is Odd-Fire, so the stock BOSCH unit is odd-fire too. It's not a big deal when carbureting an odd-fire PRV because after all, the ECU operates completely independent of the fuel delivery system. But with an even-fire engine...well, that's a different story. Are you using like an MSD unit or something?

Farrar
12-05-2016, 03:13 PM
What is the engine controller you're using now?

You're way ahead of current progress on this project, but I can speculate. A "shot in the dark" guess from me is that Bill will get a Motorcraft unit and adapt it to plug in to the stock wiring, like he did on his car #5939 and a few others.

Bitsyncmaster
12-05-2016, 03:33 PM
The ignition ECU (stock or other) are the same. There is no difference in that unit for odd or even fire.

Josh
12-05-2016, 03:40 PM
Robert, you are forgetting there is two mechanisms to advance / retard timing. Sure you slide around the distributor to set the base timing but you need to advance the timing dynamically as the engine is running (most distributors do this via a vacuum source). But i'm sure you already know that. Cause you know everything. I find it hard to take advice or information on swap and retrofit ideas for someone whos car has not run for years and is otherwise stock.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 03:40 PM
The ignition ECU (stock or other) are the same. There is no difference in that unit for odd or even fire.

Thanks, Dave. You just saved me some money. :)

DMCVegas
12-05-2016, 03:43 PM
I've no idea what Motorcraft unit would be grafted in. Perhaps an old Mustang II unit for a Cologne V6? Most of all, is that going to work?

It always helps to go ahead and plan these things out in advance to know what to get, instead of scrambling to figure out what to do next. That way you avoid painting yourself into the proverbial corner. That is why I suggested drilling the Left Cylinder Head. There are a TON of perks to using a modular engine.

The 3.0L PRV has a provision for mounting the 2.8L's Ignition Distributor. You just need to drill out the hole. Then along with the lower crankcase, you just swap over the Cams & Crank. You end up with an Odd-Fire 3.0L engine, but aside from the intake manifold & fuel pump, drilling a hole is the only fabrication needed. At that point it's all just plug and play. Drop the engine in, install the distributor, and then just plug in all of the wires. BOOM! You're ready to go. The ECU recognizes the signal and powers the Ignition Coil, RPM Relay, and Tachometer with ZERO Modifications needed to the car's wiring.

With your route you have the fabrication of the distributor, modification of the Expansion Tank to get your engine to fit, punching custom ignition wires, & modifying your car's wiring harness to fit everything. Then you're going to have to source a separate engine controller. Then you're going to have to buy an RPM adapter to get your tachometer to work. Extra things you wouldn't normally have to have purchased. Even then, I don't know that your beveled gears are going to work. There is a reason that angle grinders don't use those gears.

It's your car, and I support you. But there is an easier, and more affordable way to do all of this. And you are more than capable of doing it by yourself.

Bitsyncmaster
12-05-2016, 03:48 PM
Thanks, Dave. You just saved me some money. :)

I ran a test of the Ford unit when I was testing the GM modules. The Ford unit runs pretty much the same as the stock ECU. The GM modules adjust the dwell a lot and when the engine is not running they don't power the coil. I'm now running the GM module with no coil resistors.

Bill sent me the Ford unit for testing.

DMCVegas
12-05-2016, 03:53 PM
Robert, you are forgetting there is two mechanisms to advance / retard timing. Sure you slide around the distributor to set the base timing but you need to advance the timing dynamically as the engine is running (most distributors do this via a vacuum source). But i'm sure you already know that. Cause you know everything. I find it hard to take advice or information on swap and retrofit ideas for someone whos car has not run for years and is otherwise stock.

You know what, you are correct, I did forget about those two items, so it does indeed make it a moot point about an adapter.

But as for the personal attacks with people whom you disagree with, that really isn't anything new with you, now is it?

Farrar
12-05-2016, 04:02 PM
The 3.0L PRV has a provision for mounting the 2.8L's Ignition Distributor. You just need to drill out the hole.

That's what Bill thought, but when he took the valve covers off and looked, there was no gear for driving a distributor. Maybe this engine had been modified from stock, but regardless we're working with what we've got.

At one point Bill entertained the idea of taking the 3.0L camshaft to a shop and have a 2.8L distributor gear installed on it, but that would have been expensive.

DMCVegas
12-05-2016, 04:03 PM
That's what Bill thought, but when he took the valve covers off and looked, there was no gear for driving a distributor.

Right. That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 05:09 PM
Right. That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

You do? Fine. But I don't, and won't.

The earliest planning stages of #2613's engine swap were, I think, somewhere around summer or autumn of 2015. From that time all the way up until last week there was no plan to mess with any donor 3.0L engine south of the heads. Engine mounts were to be adapted/fabricated. But, upon investigating the procedure, Bill decided that swapping the lower crankcase actually isn't all that bad of a job. By the time the decision was made to swap the lower crankcase, the distributor was already mounted.

Spark distribution has now been taken care of. We're not going back now, only forward. I don't see much point in discussing it any more.

That said, I received the following this afternoon in an e-mail from Bill, who asked me to copy & paste here on his behalf. It corrects some misinformation I accidentally posted about the ignition distributor.


As a participant in this project, please allow me to correct some misinformation being bantered about:

1) 3.0 ignition distributors are nothing more than caps & rotors. That's it. No provision for an ignition signal. No provision for ignition advance. They are the topmost portion of a traditional ignition distributor alone -- nothing more.

2) Distributor bodies do not move. They are fastened tight to the engine.

3) Reluctor assembly inside a traditional distributor does move -- independently of the rotor. That's what gives you spark advance.

4) Reluctor assembly determines ignition module behavior. If the reluctor has 4 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 4 times each camshaft rotation for a 4 cylinder engine. If the reluctor has 6 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 6 times each camshaft rotation for a 6 cylinder engine. If the reluctor has 8 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 8 times each camshaft rotation for an 8 cylinder engine. Similarly reluctor vanes determine whether the module turns on & off in an even fire sequence or in an odd fire sequence. If the reluctor has equal sized/spaced vanes the module will turn on & off in an even fire sequence. If the reluctor has alternating sized/spaced vanes the module will turn on & off in an odd fire sequence.

5) 3.0 ignition distributor has absolutely no provision for driving an ignition module. 3.0 ignition distributor has absolutely no provision for spark advance. For the purposes of this project, 3.0 ignition distributor was useless.

Farrar's engine now has a brand new Ford distributor interfaced to the camshaft (he's running an AMC/Jeep cap & rotor because the Ford cap & rotor looked comically large on such a small engine). This distributor has everything a 3.0 distributor is missing: hall effect sensor, six even fire reluctor vanes, centrifugal advance weights (swappable with other Ford distributor weights should Farrar ever want to play with advance curves), and a vacuum spark advance diaphragm. This distributor will properly signal any inductive ignition module Farrar wishes to attach to it (his car currently has the stock Bosch module and an adapted generic Duraspark module -- either is ready to be plugged into the stock wiring harness). In the exciting world of ignition, Farrar is now ready to rock & roll (after the brackets are painted of course).

I am a little perplexed by all the hand waving about gear lubrication. What exactly does everybody think the box around the gears is for? If I had no intention of lubricating the gears I would have saved myself the trouble of making that box.

This project will draw on the best technology 1981 has to offer. I appreciate everyone's concern, but I assure you: there is nothing causing me to scratch my head in bewilderment. It's simply a matter of careful fitting.

Distributor is done. Next up is adapting Farrar's existing carbureted intake manifold to the 3.0 heads (3.0 intake ports are located higher on the heads than 2.8 ports -- plates are necessary to fill the gaps created by moving the manifold higher in the intake valley). Again, please do not worry: If I can make entire intake manifolds from scratch, I assure you I can make a set of adapter plates.

Okay, now everybody please try to stay calm. I know we have a lot of colorful personalities here on DMCTalk, but I think we can all get along if we try hard enough to not let things get personal. :)

Regarding Bill's comment about me playing with advance curves later on: I doubt that will happen. After over two years -- possibly three by the time we're done -- I will happy just to have a DeLorean that moves under its own power. And every time I plan to do some kind of upgrade to the car, something on it breaks, which is a good indication that I should just leave well enough alone. (Except cruise control ... NC - NY is a long drive, so I really want cruise control.)

Bear in mind that this engine swap is part of a larger resurrection project that will include CV joints, brakes, air conditioning, and possibly some frame repair (I have a rust hole on the left side of the engine cradle by the tow hook, and having the engine out will be a great opportunity to fix it). Let's also not forget that #2613 has a fuel tank with gallons of ancient crap in it, most of the hoses on the car are nine years old, and the tires are eight years old. And who knows what electrical problems it has by now. There's mold on the vinyl door panels, too. So, you see, I have to keep the big picture in mind. If I worry myself to death about the engine, I'll never get around to fixing anything else. As for EFI, I will point out that this thread is in the "Carb" subforum of DMCTalk.

I will post updates for those interested in the progress of this project, and answer questions when I see them. In the meantime, happy holidays! :)

Josh
12-05-2016, 05:25 PM
You know what, you are correct, I did forget about those two items, so it does indeed make it a moot point about an adapter.

But as for the personal attacks with people whom you disagree with, that really isn't anything new with you, now is it?

The issue I have is that you have guys like Farrar thinking outside of the box and actually getting out in the garage fabricating and building new ideas and putting them to work. Then there are people like yourself behind your keyboard criticizing their every move, based purely on theoretical knowledge. If you have so many bright ideas, then try them on your car instead of telling everyone else what to do.

I will admit I think there is a better way to tackle this problem with EFI, but that is not Farrar's or Bill's cup of tea. I can respect that. I can respect even more so that they are doing something unique and off the wall.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 05:40 PM
Ahem.


Okay, now everybody please try to stay calm. I know we have a lot of colorful personalities here on DMCTalk, but I think we can all get along if we try hard enough to not let things get personal. :)

Peace!

Drive Stainless
12-05-2016, 06:23 PM
He would need the odd-fire camshafts and the odd-fire crankshaft to make an odd-fire 3.0L. Otherwise, he's going to be firing when the pistons aren't anywhere near TDC.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 06:27 PM
He would need the odd-fire camshafts and the odd-fire crankshaft to make an odd-fire 3.0L. Otherwise, he's going to be firing when the pistons aren't anywhere near TDC.

I think that's what DMCVegas meant when he said this:


That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

Back on topic: next step is adapter plates for my 2.8L intake manifold. Stay tuned.

Drive Stainless
12-05-2016, 06:33 PM
I think that's what DMCVegas meant when he said this:



Back on topic: next step is adapter plates for my 2.8L intake manifold. Stay tuned.

Yup, you're right. I don't know why I didn't see that before.

Farrar
12-05-2016, 08:32 PM
Yup, you're right. I don't know why I didn't see that before.

In my case, sometimes I'll respond to something that I thought was on the last page of the thread, and then by the time my response is posted, there's another page with posts I hadn't seen.

Hey, it's the internet. Nothing's perfect. :)

opethmike
12-05-2016, 10:08 PM
Shouldn't we all be helping Farrar install an LS into his car?

Farrar
12-06-2016, 10:38 AM
Shouldn't we all be helping Farrar install an LS into his car?

Somehow I doubt that will ever happen.

opethmike
12-06-2016, 01:54 PM
When in doubt, bacon.

Farrar
12-06-2016, 02:23 PM
When in doubt, bacon.

Indeed. Bacon leaves no doubt.

cineman
12-06-2016, 02:52 PM
That's what Bill thought, but when he took the valve covers off and looked, there was no gear for driving a distributor. Maybe this engine had been modified from stock, but regardless we're working with what we've got.

At one point Bill entertained the idea of taking the 3.0L camshaft to a shop and have a 2.8L distributor gear installed on it, but that would have been expensive.

Just trowing my opinion here ; I agree with DMCVegas that there are cleanest way to do the job, and I can show the real job here not just theory. I did some PRV modifications and In the end everything that is not "OEM" designed is always a trouble for maintenance. Even more if you need to move other parts like coolant bottle, need different hoses etc...

Take attention now, this is the best cleanest way to do a PRV 3.0 conversion keepin it carburated , step by step, with photos of actual job:

- The CAMS of the 3.0 HAS NOT the gear for the distribution but the 2.8 odd fire has.
Now, the 2.8 odd fire cams are not really special or "ODD-FIRE" ; if you see the 2 cams 3.0 and 2.8 side by side, you will see that both the 2.8 odd fire and 3.0 even fire has cams with 3 cylinder 120 degree spaced, so you CAN SWAP 2.8 odd fire cams in the 3.0 even fire, keepin it EVEN FIRING just by making the same correct distribution with the chains. The difference of the odd firing vs the even firing is the spacing between the two heads; 150 degree - 90 degree in the odd firing and 120 degree in the even firing ; but the two heads are like two 3 even firing cylinder engine. ( this is something explained time ago somewhere ).
So, in the end, just swap the 2.8 cams in the 3.0 keeping the 3.0 chain sprocket ( chain sprocket 3.0 VS 2.8 odd are DIFFERENT ! ) and position.

- You don't need to swap the main crank.

- The 3.0 heads has the hole for the distributor - THIS IS RIGHT, JUST OPEN IT so we can use the original 2.8 distributor now with the geared cams but... the original distributor and sensors is odd-firing spaced, so you need to modify it as following photos for makin it even firing :

The "sensor" plate need to be cut and welded to have 6 tooths at 120 degree each.
47690

Now you have an even firing toothed distributor.

You need to find an even firing Distributor cap that suits. You can use this ALFA ROMEO part: BOSCH 1235522053 wich is a slight smaller cap, so you need to make a simple adapter ring on the diameter.
47691
this are the even firing caps.
47692

This is the unit installed. Being the cap slight smaller you need to take his rotor too, so you use a different one too.
47693

BOSCH part number should be this 1234322
47694

And bingo, you can use both Carburator, K-JET or everything on a 3.0 PRV, keeping the stock spark circuit, cables, coils etc.

Farrar
12-06-2016, 03:58 PM
One other thing that Bill corrected me on: the hole for the distributor on the 2.8L is in the head, not the valve cover. I should have known that, but it's been so long since I looked at my engine I guess I forgot. :blush:

Farrar
12-06-2016, 04:01 PM
Cineman, thanks for that information! I will keep a copy of it for future reference.

Dangermouse
12-06-2016, 04:23 PM
When in doubt, bacon.

an unusual choice for the gear lube, but it could just work

Farrar
12-06-2016, 06:51 PM
an unusual choice for the gear lube, but it could just work

And think how delicious my engine would smell! ;)

opethmike
12-06-2016, 07:22 PM
an unusual choice for the gear lube, but it could just work

My lube knowledge is excellent.

refugeefromcalif
12-06-2016, 08:06 PM
My lube knowledge is excellent.

http://d3f650ayx9w00n.cloudfront.net/700/34345-1.jpg

George

Farrar
12-08-2016, 06:44 PM
It has been determined that a 1/2" spacer beneath the intake manifold flanges will allow me to use my 2.8L manifold on the 3.0L engine. New mounting holes will have to be drilled to accomodate the different placement of 3.0L intake manifold fasteners, but that should not be a problem.

Farrar
12-16-2016, 01:58 PM
2.8L intake manifold on 3.0L engine:
47898

Gaskets will go between the manifold and the adapter plates, and O-rings between the adapter plates and the heads.

Farrar
01-28-2017, 04:30 PM
48666

Farrar
01-31-2017, 07:34 PM
Preparation for engine removal involves raising the rear of the car 13 inches off the ground.

48745

Farrar
02-04-2017, 05:25 PM
It's happening!

48811

opethmike
02-04-2017, 09:59 PM
Awesome

Farrar
02-10-2017, 09:22 PM
Some damage to the frame's epoxy was discovered.

48869

Quite what caused the epoxy to fail at that particular point is a mystery to me.

Upon wire-wheeling the area (and a rot hole near the LH tow hook), damage was found to be more extensive than I thought.

Bill says the shock towers and the engine cradle itself are fine, but there is damage where they meet, rusting from the inside.

From 3/16" angle iron, Bill made some plates to reinforce the tow hooks. These were installed with Grade 8 fasteners, and then welded on the edges. (Left side shown.)

48870

48871

Once frame repairs are completed, paint will be applied (Rustoleum Smoke Gray).

Farrar
02-25-2017, 11:49 PM
Exciting news: 2.8L and 3.0L PRV camshafts can be swapped.

And #2613's camshafts are in fantastic shape. (Odometer reads ~87,000 miles, BTW.)

Comparison photo courtesy of Bill Robertson:
49150

As it turns out, it's actually a good thing that I never managed to start the engine after I discovered #2613's coolant "disappearing." Coolant was in fact getting into the engine oil, and if I had managed to run the engine the camshafts could have been damaged.

Farrar
03-01-2017, 01:09 PM
The 3.0L replacement engine will have the camshafts from #2613's previous 2.8L engine. If a compatible ignition distributor can be found, the front-mounted distributor idea may be discarded.

Interestingly, while the driver-side camshaft can drive a traditional ignition distributor, the passenger-side camshaft can drive a traditional fuel pump.

opethmike
03-01-2017, 01:34 PM
Cams are rather rusty. They should really get cleaned up by a machine shop before being re-installed.

Farrar
03-01-2017, 02:04 PM
Cams are rather rusty. They should really get cleaned up by a machine shop before being re-installed.

What's in the photo are not #2613's camshafts. #2613's camshafts are in fantastic shape.

The comparison photo was taken before #2613's camshafts were pulled. Bill compared 3.0L camshafts to a pair of 2.8L camshafts he already had handy. I think he probably wanted to confirm the similarities before performing surgery.

Sorry for the confusion.

Farrar
03-01-2017, 02:09 PM
This is a photo taken after #2613's B28 camshafts were pulled: the driver-side camshaft is on the right in this photo.

49215


Bill assures me that the camshafts he pulled from #2613 are in excellent condition. They are now installed into the 3.0L block.

Farrar
03-02-2017, 05:13 PM
A compatible AMC/Jeep ignition distributor has been sourced, modified, and successfully test-fitted into a B27 block. Bill provides this helpful annotated photo.

49230

Farrar
03-08-2017, 08:54 AM
Mechanical fuel pump successfully test fitted onto 3.0L engine.

49348

The car still has an electric fuel pump at the tank, by the way.

Farrar
03-10-2017, 11:46 PM
Ignition distributor test fit.

49430

DMC5180
03-11-2017, 11:19 AM
Did the head require machining to fit the distributor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
03-11-2017, 12:16 PM
Did the head require machining to fit the distributor?

There's a hole where a distributor would go, but it doesn't go all the way through.

49443

DMC5180
03-11-2017, 12:38 PM
Did the head get removed and setup in a proper milling machine to precision drill/bore the hole or did Bill just wing it with a hand held drill?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
03-11-2017, 07:51 PM
Did the head get removed and setup in a proper milling machine to precision drill/bore the hole or did Bill just wing it with a hand held drill?

You're cute.

DMC5180
03-12-2017, 08:44 PM
I just wondered because it didn't look like heads had been removed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

opethmike
03-13-2017, 12:07 PM
You're cute.

I'm cuter.

dn010
05-04-2017, 04:06 PM
Judging by the amount of aluminum bits all over the engine and the shop-vac in the background, my guess is the heads were not removed. Anyway, are there any progress updates on this?


I just wondered because it didn't look like heads had been removed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
05-05-2017, 03:32 PM
any progress updates on this?

Yes.

I keep trying to put photos inline, but it keeps failing. Probably something to do with my browser or Flash. Anyway, here are two attached.

Engine accessories have been fitted: a/c compressor, water pump, and alternator. Serpentine belt is installed. Everything looks good.

Alternator is in the stock position for the 3.0L engine; as a result, that wiring had to be replaced with a longer run.

New engine mounts have been installed.

Engine compartment is ready for installation.

Farar

Drive Stainless
05-05-2017, 03:48 PM
Yes.

I keep trying to put photos inline, but it keeps failing. Probably something to do with my browser or Flash. Anyway, here are two attached.

Engine accessories have been fitted: a/c compressor, water pump, and alternator. Serpentine belt is installed. Everything looks good.

Alternator is in the stock position for the 3.0L engine; as a result, that wiring had to be replaced with a longer run.

New engine mounts have been installed.

Engine compartment is ready for installation.

Farar

Hah, he did the same thing I did with the water pump heater return pipe.

Farrar
05-05-2017, 03:55 PM
Hah, he did the same thing I did with the water pump heater return pipe.

Been meaning to ask him about that. What did he do?

Drive Stainless
05-05-2017, 03:59 PM
Been meaning to ask him about that. What did he do?

Well, he didn't use the stupid fitting that's on it. He took a piece of heater hose and stretched it over the whole thing and used a hose clamp.

Josh
05-08-2017, 03:31 PM
I did something similar as well. stupid design with some orings and a spring.

RamblinDMC
05-08-2017, 10:06 PM
Do you know if a 2.8L (K-Jet) manifold will fit on the 3.0L?

vwdmc16
05-09-2017, 03:42 AM
It will not unless custom spacers are made to connect the two and also have ports drilled for the k jet injectors.

Search, there are pics

Farrar
05-11-2017, 01:20 AM
Speaking of spacers, the a/c compressor's hoses won't clear the 3.0L oil filler without being raised slightly. Spacers and a longer serpentine belt are on the way.

Farrar
05-14-2017, 11:57 PM
Engine was tested for about an hour. Fine from idle to redline. Cooling fans didn't come on except when jumpered, so a new switch is in order. Also: wiring fault between ignition switch and starter motor.

Farrar
05-15-2017, 05:59 PM
51542

The new engine is getting new freeze plugs.

Rich_NYS
05-15-2017, 11:06 PM
Looking good....you must be really psyched!

Farrar
05-16-2017, 02:00 PM
51551

vwdmc16
05-17-2017, 01:59 AM
If you could find a way to make the factory kjet air cleaner work, or make some sort of air filter element that will duct over to the right pontoon, That would actually look pretty nice and clean.

Farrar
05-17-2017, 10:26 PM
If you could find a way to make the factory kjet air cleaner work, or make some sort of air filter element that will duct over to the right pontoon, That would actually look pretty nice and clean.

Good thing it's not your car.

Josh
05-18-2017, 02:28 AM
Good thing it's not your car.

just throwing an idea out there, no need to get snooty

Its nice to see your car operational again. A carburated 3.0 opens the possibility of this swap to people not interested in messing with efi.

Farrar
05-18-2017, 09:20 AM
just throwing an idea out there, no need to get snooty

Its nice to see your car operational again. A carburated 3.0 opens the possibility of this swap to people not interested in messing with efi.

Was aiming for funny, not snooty. Sorry.

#2613 isn't 100% operational and likely won't be for some time. Bill has done a lot of testing on the engine and it seems to run fine. So that's good news, at least.

Although I'm excited at the prospect of having a running, driving DeLorean again, I'm trying to keep calm, because I know that while the car has been sitting a million other little things could have gone wrong, and we won't know about them until more testing is done. Right now, it doesn't even have exhaust...

dn010
05-18-2017, 11:42 AM
Looks good! I just hope you've gotten all of the metal shavings out of the engine. It takes a very small amount of them to get ground up and start causing damage to bearings/surfaces, pistons/walls, etc. Unfortunately, I have a Nissan engine that suffered this fate...

Farrar
05-18-2017, 12:20 PM
Looks good! I just hope you've gotten all of the metal shavings out of the engine. It takes a very small amount of them to get ground up and start causing damage to bearings/surfaces, pistons/walls, etc. Unfortunately, I have a Nissan engine that suffered this fate...

We left a single metal shaving inside because we're using the homeopathic approach to engine health.

Just kidding. But seriously, sorry about your Nissan.

Nicholas R
05-18-2017, 02:01 PM
We left a single metal shaving inside because we're using the homeopathic approach to engine health.

I laughed a surprising amount at this. Thank you :biggrin:

Congrats on the progress!

vwdmc16
05-18-2017, 05:01 PM
Was aiming for funny, not snooty. Sorry...



Okay, it did sound pretty distasteful.

Farrar
05-18-2017, 05:18 PM
Okay, it did sound pretty distasteful.

My comedy doesn't always fire on all cylinders.

(This is a car forum, so I hope I don't have to explain that one.)

Farrar
05-20-2017, 12:18 AM
The oil filler got in the way of the a/c lines, so spacers have been installed - and, as a result, a slightly longer serpentine belt has also been installed.

51644

51645

Did you notice the bent metal fuel line? Hand crafted in U.S.A. by Bill Robertson. :)

Farrar
05-23-2017, 10:22 PM
51752

Farrar
05-26-2017, 02:44 PM
Bill informs me that the engine runs fine, but has a slight vibration and pulls less vacuum than expected.

As far as I can remember, #2613's engine always made a vibration. At idle speeds I could feel it in my seat and the steering wheel. I kept asking people about it, and they kept telling me "It's an odd-fire engine, so it does that." I eventually just gave up looking for the reason and accepted it as a fact of DeLorean ownership. But perhaps a previous owner swapped in some "performance" camshafts and I didn't know about them.

Anyway, Bill was able to get the engine to pull 13 inches of vacuum at idle by advancing base timing up to 18 degrees. We won't know until a test drive is made if there may be any problems with detonation due to the timing advance.

Josh
05-26-2017, 03:33 PM
Bill informs me that the engine runs fine, but has a slight vibration and pulls less vacuum than expected.

As far as I can remember, #2613's engine always made a vibration. At idle speeds I could feel it in my seat and the steering wheel. I kept asking people about it, and they kept telling me "It's an odd-fire engine, so it does that." I eventually just gave up looking for the reason and accepted it as a fact of DeLorean ownership. But perhaps a previous owner swapped in some "performance" camshafts and I didn't know about them.

Anyway, Bill was able to get the engine to pull 13 inches of vacuum at idle by advancing base timing up to 18 degrees. We won't know until a test drive is made if there may be any problems with detonation due to the timing advance.

Yikes, that is a lot of timing. My 3.0 pulled 19 at idle at 10deg btcd

Is the compression good on the motor? perhaps an issue with the timing?

Farrar
05-26-2017, 04:26 PM
Yikes, that is a lot of timing. My 3.0 pulled 19 at idle at 10deg btcd

Is the compression good on the motor? perhaps an issue with the timing?

Compression test results:

Cylinder 1: 150+ PSI (needle just to right of hashmark)
Cylinder 2: 150+ PSI (needle just to right of hashmark)
Cylinder 3: 155 PSI
Cylinder 4: 160 PSI
Cylinder 5: 160 PSI
Cylinder 6: 160- PSI (needle just to left of hashmark)

Josh
05-26-2017, 04:45 PM
Compression test results:

Cylinder 1: 150+ PSI (needle just to right of hashmark)
Cylinder 2: 150+ PSI (needle just to right of hashmark)
Cylinder 3: 155 PSI
Cylinder 4: 160 PSI
Cylinder 5: 160 PSI
Cylinder 6: 160- PSI (needle just to left of hashmark)

looks perfect to me. Im sure bill is on it, but at this point it sounds like the timing (chains) are off.

Farrar
05-26-2017, 04:58 PM
looks perfect to me. Im sure bill is on it, but at this point it sounds like the timing (chains) are off.

I'm pretty sure Bill double-checked before he put the valve covers back on.

For what it's worth, the engine idles fine apart from that very slight vibration at idle. Apart from that, it runs smoothly, and revs freely, all the way up to the redline.

I'm no engine timing expert. If the timing chain were off one tooth, would there be any other symptoms?

Josh
05-26-2017, 05:11 PM
I'm pretty sure Bill double-checked before he put the valve covers back on.

For what it's worth, the engine idles fine apart from that very slight vibration at idle. Apart from that, it runs smoothly, and revs freely, all the way up to the redline.

I'm no engine timing expert. If the timing chain were off one tooth, would there be any other symptoms?

Besides low vaccum

The engine will hesitate when you get on the gas
Performance will be poor across the power band
Poor fuel mileage

A worn out timing chain tensioner could also give these symptoms.

Drive Stainless
05-26-2017, 05:22 PM
Besides low vaccum

The engine will hesitate when you get on the gas
Performance will be poor across the power band
Poor fuel mileage

A worn out timing chain tensioner could also give these symptoms.

Bill measured the camshafts and found they are different from stock. Farrar's PO was Bobby Allison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Allison). Is it plausible that a NASCAR driver would have the means to make a new set of camshafts that result in the vacuum signal being weaker?

Josh
05-26-2017, 05:26 PM
Bill measured the camshafts and found they are different from stock. Farrar's PO was Bobby Allison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Allison). Is it plausible that a NASCAR driver would have the means to make a new set of camshafts that result in the vacuum signal being weaker?

Those would be some pretty aggressive cams to drop it that much, you would be able to hear it I would think. Who knows though.

Is he comparing to another stock 3.0 cam? or the 2.8? Cause the 3.0 cam is certainly different than the 2.8.

Drive Stainless
05-26-2017, 05:31 PM
Those would be some pretty aggressive cams to drop it that much, you would be able to hear it I would think. Who knows though.

Is he comparing to another stock 3.0 cam? or the 2.8? Cause the 3.0 cam is certainly different than the 2.8.

I think Bill is up to three 3.0L's now.

Farrar
05-26-2017, 11:08 PM
Josh: Thanks for the diagnostic info. The engine seems to be suffering no other symptoms, but at the moment it also doesn't have the load of torque converter, axles, etc. to push against. Perhaps we will get more information when the engine is closer to normal operating conditions.

Matt: I thought the comparison Bill made was to stock 3.0L camshafts, not stock 2.8L camshafts. Did I get that wrong?

I think #2613's 2.8L engine, when it was healthy, pulled about 18 inches of vacuum. I know other engines pull more in the range of 20-21, but I never gave it much thought.

Drive Stainless
05-26-2017, 11:15 PM
Farrar: Check with Bill, but I believe he compared with the 2.8 L camshafts to understand that they were not the same and also compared with 3.0 L camshafts to understand they were close enough.

louielouie2000
05-27-2017, 05:23 PM
Bill measured the camshafts and found they are different from stock. Farrar's PO was Bobby Allison (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Allison). Is it plausible that a NASCAR driver would have the means to make a new set of camshafts that result in the vacuum signal being weaker?

I drove and rode in Farrar's car quite a few times when it was still running its original 2.8 before and after carb conversion. It definitely didn't have performance cams. His engine also didn't run any less smooth than any other "stock" DeLorean. It was by far the slowest DeLorean I've ever driven, though. A 1960s Beetle could probably have outrun it. Something definitely wasn't right.

Oh, and Farrar- Bill advanced the timing on my second DeLorean that much once too. Definitely have him dial it back.

Farrar
05-28-2017, 05:45 PM
Bill was able to get the engine to pull 13 inches of vacuum at idle by advancing base timing up to 18 degrees.

This is incorrect! Timing is at 16 degrees, not 18. Apologies for the error.

Curiosity aside, it doesn't matter to me what kind of camshafts are in this engine, as long as they work. Remember that this car's previous engine slowly died and refused resuscitation. Apart from a few failed attempts by me to get it started, swapping out fuel from the tank, and pushing and pulling it this way and that, the car did absolutely nothing for almost two years. I'll be happy to have an engine that functions, regardless of "performance."

The distributor is an AMC/Jeep externally; the internals - counterweights, &c. - are brand new. If timing advance needs to be adjusted, the time for that will be when the car is road-tested. That won't be any time soon.

Rich_NYS
05-28-2017, 07:56 PM
Looking forward to seeing & hearing your custom exhaust!
:rock_on:

Farrar
05-28-2017, 08:16 PM
Looking forward to seeing & hearing your custom exhaust!

So am I ... I hope it's quiet. The last time I took a road trip in the car, my ears were ringing and my voice was hoarse for a full day afterward. 70+ MPH in third gear makes an awful din.

A few ice ages ago when I decided to replace my rusting "Performance" exhaust from 2004, I bought two Borla Pro XS mufflers. A chart I found on the internet comparing them with similar "performance" mufflers rated them the best for sound reduction, and they were available in stainless steel.

I also bought two small stainless steel resonators to try to make things even quieter. This was a mistake.

Because I incorrectly estimated the amount of space available, there wasn't room for both the mufflers and the resonators. I dropped the resonator idea and decided to buy resonator tips instead.

During engine testing, Bill has been using the Borla Pro XS mufflers with no tips installed. I asked him if the engine was quiet. He said it was more throaty than quiet. I hope that the resonator tips, once finally installed, will help tame it.

Farrar
05-29-2017, 12:09 PM
Bill made these two YouTube videos so that everyone can know how this conversion was made.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bR49EFWg6Y

Farrar
05-29-2017, 12:10 PM
For those who just want to know if the engine runs, you can skip to the last couple of minutes of the second video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwTbq5bMiBg

FABombjoy
05-29-2017, 02:46 PM
I have a single 2.5" Borla Pro XS on my car and like the sound and quality but it's a fair amount quieter in my configuration. Curious to hear what your twins will sound like on the road.

Farrar
05-29-2017, 03:17 PM
I just looked at the second video and it looks like the exhaust tips' fasteners corroded and left rust stains on my stainless steel mufflers. :mecry:

Farrar
05-31-2017, 05:48 PM
ATF leak. Looks like a seal between transaxle & torque converter. Not a big deal, but would have been much easier to replace with the engine out. But that's the way it goes!

Farrar
06-07-2017, 10:59 PM
Exhaust is done, but no test driving yet. Shift cable got damaged somehow.

51997

Bill also found that one of the transmission mounts is broken - a previous owner's weld failed (likely they tried to weld it on the car).

51998

dn010
06-08-2017, 03:56 PM
EDIT - deleted. Was offering a cable for free but realized you have an auto not manual.

Farrar
06-08-2017, 04:24 PM
EDIT - deleted. Was offering a cable for free but realized you have an auto not manual.

And you did it before I could say "Well, thanks for the offer, but ..."

Too fast for me!

Thanks, anyway. :)

Farrar
06-08-2017, 10:05 PM
The car will be test-driven soon, despite many difficulties arising along the way to roadworthiness.

Bill welded the transmission mount back together (off the car, which is the only proper way to do it) and re-installed it. The fasteners were rusted and had to be ground away -- probably why the previous owner tried (and failed) to weld the mount while it was still on the car: the mount is installed in two pieces, and then fastened together, so rusted-up fasteners make removal impossible without cutting and/or grinding. Once the mount was off the car (in more pieces than planned), Bill ground the nut off of the bolt, then got to welding - including doing a proper weld where a previous owner had done an improper one. He also noticed a couple of welds that were only done on one side, and welded them on the other side for reinforcement.

5200552006

As for the shifter cable ... Well, moving the lever inside the car was moving the cable's outer sheath, not the cable; the transmission itself remained in "Park."

The cable disappears inside the transmission. Dropping the pan exposed it somewhat, but it looks like disconnecting/connecting the cable requires further disassembly of the transmission. I don't think Bill has ever messed with a Renault 4141 before: both of his DeLoreans are manual shift. And I have never done anything to any automatic transmission apart from change the fluid.

<TMI> I know that it was rebuilt while in the previous owner's possession, probably due to overheating: the computer governor was also replaced at that time. For extra security against that happening again, I installed one of Jeff Angwin's governors in 2010 when my NOS one started acting the tiniest bit flaky, and it has shifted fine ever since. </TMI>

Bill was able to jam the outer sheath into the fitting where it screws into the transmission. The console selector is now working normally.

Exhaust is installed, as are axles (Bill replaced a torn CV boot). Once the torque converter seal is replaced, road testing can commence.

Rich_NYS
06-08-2017, 11:19 PM
Pics of the exhaust, please...! :biggrin:

Farrar
06-09-2017, 11:57 AM
Pics of the exhaust, please...! :biggrin:

Road testing first, I think.

Farrar
06-09-2017, 08:08 PM
For those not already subscribed to Bill on YouTube, here is some more informative video re: this engine installation.

Part One of ignition:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wUqlt0u_kA

Farrar
06-09-2017, 08:08 PM
And here is Part Two of the ignition explanation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72syhOAIqYI

Farrar
06-11-2017, 10:49 AM
As for the shifter cable ...
[snip]
Bill was able to jam the outer sheath into the fitting where it screws into the transmission. The console selector is now working normally.

This repair didn't last long. Bill was able to get the car into gear and adjust the idle speed to account for torque converter load. However, the cable stopped working again before Bill could do a test drive.

I think Bill must have seen all of Rich_NYS's comments asking about exhaust because he made this video.
The video also contains information about the shift cable problem.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hOtlbIegtk

Rich_NYS
06-11-2017, 03:34 PM
Awesome, that's gonna be a mean machine.....

Farrar
06-11-2017, 03:48 PM
Awesome, that's gonna be a mean machine.....

What do you mean by "mean?"

Farrar
06-12-2017, 12:40 PM
The automatic transmission cannot be removed with the shift cable still attached. For some reason, this important information is not in the Workshop Manual; I suppose the authors assumed that any mechanic would be pulling the engine and transmission as a unit before doing any work, the reverse of how they were installed at the factory.

You can't simply unscrew the shift cable assembly ( P/N 100558 ) from the transmission without doing a little finagling first: After disconnecting the cable from the bellcrank, pull it all the way towards "Park." At this point, the fitting that is attached to the shift mechanism inside the transmission rests inside a small passage tube. If the inner cable is not pulled all the way forward as described, the internal fitting will fall down inside the transmission, and you'll have to disassemble the transmission to collect it. Since dropping the transmission requires disassembly of pretty much the entire rear of the car, you've probably already had a bad day by then, and that would make it a lot worse.

DMCMW Dave
06-12-2017, 01:02 PM
The automatic transmission cannot be removed with the shift cable still attached. .

Actually it can - if you use some care. Most places are not careful and end up kinking or breaking it.

Farrar
06-12-2017, 01:13 PM
Actually it can - if you use some care.

I hereby yield the floor to DMCMW Dave on this issue.

Drive Stainless
06-12-2017, 01:32 PM
DMCMW Dave is the most active retired DeLorean mechanic that I know. Here's hoping he'll return to the "sport" after an 18-month sabbatical in true Chicago (a la Michael Jordan) style.

Farrar
06-12-2017, 04:02 PM
DMCMW Dave is the most active retired DeLorean mechanic that I know. Here's hoping he'll return to the "sport" after an 18-month sabbatical in true Chicago (a la Michael Jordan) style.

On the other hand, he may just prefer to sit back and enjoy his well-earned retirement. I wouldn't think ill of him for that ... as long as he has the time to answer the occasional e-mail or phone call from me as I encounter problems not outlined in the Workshop Manual and seek his sage counsel. :-)

Farrar
06-13-2017, 07:17 PM
Replacement shift cable assembly and torque converter seal are en route.

Jupiterbandit
06-17-2017, 03:14 PM
So did someone make a kit to add the trigger wheel and sensor to the crank pulley?

I just got a 91 3.0 distributor less motor. I want to use the coil pack and not the distributor.

Farrar
06-17-2017, 10:52 PM
So did someone make a kit to add the trigger wheel and sensor to the crank pulley?

I just got a 91 3.0 distributor less motor. I want to use the coil pack and not the distributor.

Welcome to DMCTalk.

I don't know the answer to your question. You might get better results if you ask in the EFI sub-forum; most or all of the EFI conversions involve a trigger wheel and sensor for MegaSquirt or similar.

Jupiterbandit
06-18-2017, 06:50 PM
Thanks Farrar. I'm still learning my way around the forum. I'll definitely check over there.

I enjoyed reading your posts, they've been very helpful.

Farrar
06-19-2017, 12:06 AM
The replacement shift cable assembly is installed. Since "stretching" (for lack of a better word) is what damaged the old unit, Bill raised the transmission until it was very nearly where it would be with the mounts bolted up, and then installed the replacement unit. I imagine that on any other car where access would not be a problem, R&R of this part would be a cinch; not so on the DMC-12. If you ever do this job, be careful and patient, and follow Dave's instructions to the letter.

The torque converter lip seal also has been replaced. Once that seal fails, ATF comes out at an alarming rate, since operating pressure is somewhere near 116 PSI. (Good news: the fluid leaking from #2613's transmission looked very good.) It is far easier to remove the engine from the car than to remove the transmission from the car, so that's how Bill did it. I imagine by now he's a bit tired of pulling engines ... at least on this car.

With the lip seal installed, the torque converter and engine can go back in. The new shift cable assembly has been tested and works. So the next thing to do is to put the back end of the car back together (an unbelievable amount of stuff is in the way of dropping the transmission), including the axles, and perhaps in the next few days Bill will test drive the car.

Farrar
06-20-2017, 04:28 PM
Bad news: Headlight switch is failing & fuel sender is dead.

Good news: Otterstat, previously not working, is now working. (Probably corroded terminals "repaired" by being disconnected & connected a few times.)

Test driving should start today. Nervous time for good ol' Farrar.

I'd feel comfortable changing out the fuel sender in a hotel parking lot, but not the headlight switch. I guess to drive the car home I will have to figure out a way to temporarily bypass the switch and make the headlights come on when the key is in "run," temporarily turning them into full-time running lights. Without the car here I'm having a hard time remembering if there are any unused green/white wires I could put onto the coil of the headlight relay. If anyone reading this could help, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Bitsyncmaster
06-20-2017, 08:23 PM
Bad news: Headlight switch is failing & fuel sender is dead.

Good news: Otterstat, previously not working, is now working. (Probably corroded terminals "repaired" by being disconnected & connected a few times.)

Test driving should start today. Nervous time for good ol' Farrar.

I'd feel comfortable changing out the fuel sender in a hotel parking lot, but not the headlight switch. I guess to drive the car home I will have to figure out a way to temporarily bypass the switch and make the headlights come on when the key is in "run," temporarily turning them into full-time running lights. Without the car here I'm having a hard time remembering if there are any unused green/white wires I could put onto the coil of the headlight relay. If anyone reading this could help, I'd greatly appreciate it.

You could jumper the headlight relay to get the headlights on but that will not get your "running lights" on.

I think you could also jumper the "light relay" (for your AC panel dimming). Put power to the red/orange wire to get the running lights working. I have not tried this but looks like it may work.

Farrar
06-20-2017, 09:43 PM
Thanks, Dave M! I had forgotten about those lights.

DMC5180
06-20-2017, 11:16 PM
How come you don't want to Fix it with a replacement switch before the Road trip? Are you driving the car home or trailering it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
06-20-2017, 11:26 PM
How come you don't want to Fix it with a replacement switch before the Road trip? Are you driving the car home or trailering it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I will take a train to the D.C. area, where I will pick up the car, then drive home. Anything I do to the car has to be done in a hotel parking lot, using only tools and parts that I can bring with me on the train.


Sent from my computer using Internet ;)

Lwanmtr
06-21-2017, 02:35 AM
At least you dont have to worry about tsa with the train...trust me, those guys look at you funny when bringing a bag full of tools on an airplane.

Farrar
06-21-2017, 12:15 PM
At least you dont have to worry about tsa with the train...trust me, those guys look at you funny when bringing a bag full of tools on an airplane.

I can only imagine what TSA would do if they found a fire extinguisher in my luggage.

Delorean Industries
06-21-2017, 12:24 PM
I can only imagine what TSA would do if they found a fire extinguisher in my luggage.

I've checked some weird crap over the years. Never one of those.

Lwanmtr
06-21-2017, 04:18 PM
Try doing it in your carry on...lol

Farrar
06-21-2017, 11:42 PM
Bill test drove the car today at long last.

Transmission is doing fine: 1-2 shifts right around 3,500 RPM (unless you floor it, then it's more like 5,000 RPM). Just driving around the neighborhood today he didn't need third gear. Highway driving comes later. Bill said it's "not quite as fast as a 5-speed, but surprisingly peppy."

No valve clatter under hard acceleration. Occasional momentary valve clatter from idle to throttle -- could be because the carburetor is still jetted for the B28F. Since 3.0L is higher displacement and higher compression, may need larger jets (or tweak the accelerator pump).

Bill says the exhaust is "surprisingly quiet." :cool1: (Especially considering that it's only loosely fitted to the manifolds, pending two more guillotine clamps on order.)

Radiator fans continue to function normally, but brakes are a little heavy. Going to try fresh fluid.

Exciting! :D

Lwanmtr
06-22-2017, 01:07 AM
Cool..sounds like its coming along great.

DMCMW Dave
06-22-2017, 01:14 AM
Bill test drove the car today at long last.

Transmission is doing fine: 1-2 shifts right around 3,500 RPM (unless you floor it, then it's more like 5,000 RPM). Just driving around the neighborhood today he didn't need third gear. Highway driving comes later. Bill said it's "not quite as fast as a 5-speed, but surprisingly peppy."

:D

Sounds like the kickdown switch is shorted (stuck microswitch?) or the throttle position cable is too tight. Easy driving should shift more like 2000. Is that switch even hooked up on the new installation?

Farrar
06-22-2017, 12:17 PM
Sounds like the kickdown switch is shorted (stuck microswitch?) or the throttle position cable is too tight. Easy driving should shift more like 2000. Is that switch even hooked up on the new installation?

The kickdown switch never left:

52157

Likely the throttle position cable is too tight. I did a bad job of adjusting it a few years ago, but didn't feel like messing with it again once the car started having other problems that kept it off the road.

I'm just happy the thing shifts and doesn't leak. Until yesterday, the car hadn't moved under its own power for more than two years.

Farrar
06-25-2017, 04:31 PM
Brakes have been flushed, but owing to exhaust slippage, further test driving is delayed until the last two clamps come in.

The air conditioning makes a strange noise when shut off. Bill says it sounds like someone's stomach grumbling. I can't say I ever noticed that sound before. However, the air conditioning does work just fine. Time will tell if it is leak-free, but considering that I have replaced the evaporator, compressor, all three hoses, accumulator (twice), and orifice tube, and installed new o-rings, all within the last three years, it should be good to go with the 3.0L-compatible compressor and a fresh charge of refrigerant and lubricant (both of which it has).

dn010
06-25-2017, 04:32 PM
Accumulator?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
06-25-2017, 04:41 PM
Accumulator?

Are you asking if I've replaced it? Yes, I have - twice. Forgot to put that in the previous post. Oops.

Are you asking if it is making the noises? I don't know.

Edit: There. Fixed it. :)

dn010
06-25-2017, 04:43 PM
Was asking about replacement. I can say mine makes a gurgling noise which slowly fades once off. But hey, as long as it works!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
06-25-2017, 04:44 PM
Oh, I also replaced the low pressure switch, and installed a high pressure switch (running wires to it, of course) and relief valve by the compressor, since as an "early VIN car" #2613 didn't have those things.

Wow, I'm forgetful when I've only had two cups of coffee. :P

NckT
06-26-2017, 04:49 PM
Was asking about replacement. I can say mine makes a gurgling noise which slowly fades once off. But hey, as long as it works!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That gurgling noise is a symptom of losing fuel pressure and the accumulator is releasing the fluid back into the system via the spring/ diaphragm in the accumulator. Chances are there'll be an issue with the O rings in the primary pressure regulator built into the fuel distributor or a back leaking non return (check) valve in the fuel line or a bad fuel injector.

opethmike
06-26-2017, 04:52 PM
That gurgling noise is a symptom of losing fuel pressure and the accumulator is releasing the fluid back into the system via the spring/ diaphragm in the accumulator. Chances are there'll be an issue with the O rings in the primary pressure regulator built into the fuel distributor or a back leaking non return (check) valve in the fuel line or a bad fuel injector.

The car is not K-Jet.

dn010
06-26-2017, 04:52 PM
I should clarify that this is my A/C accumulator making this noise only when I shut off the A/C. Also as Mike stated, my car is not K-Jet.


That gurgling noise is a symptom of losing fuel pressure and the accumulator is releasing the fluid back into the system via the spring/ diaphragm in the accumulator. Chances are there'll be an issue with the O rings in the primary pressure regulator built into the fuel distributor or a back leaking non return (check) valve in the fuel line or a bad fuel injector.

Farrar
06-26-2017, 04:57 PM
That gurgling noise is a symptom of losing fuel pressure and the accumulator is releasing the fluid back into the system via the spring/ diaphragm in the accumulator. Chances are there'll be an issue with the O rings in the primary pressure regulator built into the fuel distributor or a back leaking non return (check) valve in the fuel line or a bad fuel injector.

Dan's car is EFI and mine is carbureted, but that's an interesting thing to know. Thanks.

NckT
06-26-2017, 05:18 PM
Oh right, sorry lads I wasn't aware. I thought it was referring to an accumulator gurgling noise!

Farrar
06-26-2017, 07:16 PM
Oh right, sorry lads I wasn't aware. I thought it was referring to an accumulator gurgling noise!

No worries, thanks for pitching in.

Farrar
06-27-2017, 10:54 PM
Three things tonight:

1. While road testing, the headlight switch got stuck in the "on" position. With no radio to get in the way, Bill was able to stick his hand in the gap and unplug the switch to turn the lights off. Turning them on again will be a problem.

2. Transmission is in third gear the entire time "Drive" is selected. "2" brings it to second and "1" brings it to first as it should, but "D" means you're stuck in third no matter what speed you're going.

3. Coolant temp. sensor is sending bad info or gauge is failing: below 220 it's accurate, but above that it gets very high very fast.

It's definitely not ready to drive home yet. :(

Farrar
06-27-2017, 11:02 PM
Re: #2 above: It should be noted that I am running Jeff Angwin's digital computer governor -- I spliced it into the harness at the back of the engine compartment and ran extensions to mount the computer box in the driver-side cubby hole.

Farrar
06-28-2017, 12:20 AM
Almost forgot to mention the good news: I got #2613 registered in New York! Now when I pick it up, all I have to do is put the plates and stickers on, and I will be good to go (with a ten-day grace period for getting it inspected, of course).

DMCMW Dave
06-28-2017, 12:49 AM
Re: #2 above: It should be noted that I am running Jeff Angwin's digital computer governor -- I spliced it into the harness at the back of the engine compartment and ran extensions to mount the computer box in the driver-side cubby hole.

Bill never mentioned that when we were talking about the problem. Argh. I hate to bad-mouth things, but I've only seen a couple of those units on cars and they were always defective. And then I have to splice all the wires back together.

Farrar
06-28-2017, 01:04 AM
Bill never mentioned that when we were talking about the problem.

It's possible that Bill had not yet read, or never received, the e-mail I sent him about this modification, when y'all talked on the phone. (I am not convinced Bill's e-mail and my Gmail are communicating 100%.)

I suggested that he check my splices to make sure they were secure. Since they're in the engine compartment, who knows -- they could have been bumped by engine removal, replacement, removal, and replacement. I installed the unit before I knew how to solder and just used crimp connectors. (Yeah, I know - I was young and foolish. I plan to replace those crimp connectors with proper soldered lineman splices when I get the car back.)

Farrar
06-28-2017, 07:11 PM
Bill now says that it's impossible to even manually select first gear.

He mentioned that he checked Fuse #13, which the workshop manual says is the fuse for the transmission computer. Fuse #13 is good.

I spent a few hours today studying the car's wiring diagram to see if there were any other fuses to check. It seems that Fuse #16's output is a light green wire with a white tracer that goes to the auto trans. harness. (Large L-shaped connector.)

I looked at the wiring diagram for the automatic transmission computer and it seems that the light green/white wire provides power for shift solenoid #2.

Looking at the workshop manual for solenoid engagement, it looks like first gear is solenoids 1 & 2, second gear is solenoid 2, and third gear is neither solenoid. Can someone confirm this?

Farrar
06-28-2017, 08:08 PM
Funny what kind of discrepancies you can find digging through the Workshop Manual.

The wiring diagram clearly shows that fuse 18 has a green/purple wire to the brake lights & reverse lights.

But in the very same section of the very same book, the fused circuit list says that the reverse lights are on fuse 16.

Which is correct? I guess I will find out one day when I get my hands on a DeLorean again.

DMC5180
06-28-2017, 09:19 PM
I believe early cars used Fuse 18 for brake lights. Later VIN cars use a inline fuse holder located under the left side center console near coin tray IIRC. This is why in a lot of cars fuse 18 is empty.

Not sure where the VIN break is in the production run.

It may correlate with the cars that you can step on the brake pedal and have brake lights without the key being ON. On later cars you have to turn the Key ON to have Brake lights.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
06-29-2017, 01:05 AM
Thanks, Dennis, for that info. I guess the wiring diagram is for "early" cars and the list of fused circuits is for "late" cars.

#2613 for some reason has features of both "early" cars (e.g. no high pressure release for the a/c) and "late" cars (e.g. starting circuit wiring).

I guess any DMC-12 is going to be a crapshoot in some way or another.

Ron
06-29-2017, 02:41 PM
I looked at the wiring diagram for the automatic transmission computer and it seems that the light green/white wire provides power for shift solenoid #2.
No, the light green/white wire provides power for the reverse lights (fuse 16>multi-function switch>green/brown).



Looking at the workshop manual for solenoid engagement, it looks like first gear is solenoids 1 & 2, second gear is solenoid 2, and third gear is neither solenoid. Can someone confirm this?
Yes. But note fuse 13 provides power for BOTH solenoids (hot with key), and that the governor OR multi-function switch can ground them them....

Latest I have:
52252

Farrar
06-29-2017, 02:57 PM
Thanks for that info, Ron.

The previous owner of my car included the original auto trans. computer which had been removed. (I guess he bought a new one instead of sending it back to be rebuilt.) Assuming it survived the move, (it was in a plastic garbage bag and someone may have thrown it away...) I am going to look at it and maybe if the wires are in good shape I will just shotgun the CBs using the diagram you posted here and other info in the "Resources" section.

Ron
06-29-2017, 05:42 PM
Lots of other 'computer' info here:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?350-Automatic-Transmission-Governor&highlight=resources%2C+computer%2C+governor

Dangermouse
06-29-2017, 06:18 PM
I can only imagine what TSA would do if they found a fire extinguisher in my luggage.

They would take it off you, and that's all probably.

As you are on instagram, check out the TSA page - it's full of pics of stuff folks try and bring on, or forget they have.

It's my favorite page/feed/whateverTheseThingsOnInstagramAreCalled

Farrar
06-29-2017, 06:34 PM
Lots of other 'computer' info here:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?350-Automatic-Transmission-Governor&highlight=resources%2C+computer%2C+governor

... is exactly where I got the rest of my info of course ;)

Farrar
06-29-2017, 11:19 PM
Today was a day full of stuff I didn't want to deal with but had to anyway, but finally tonight I had a chance to go digging in the garage and scored this:

52317

It is, for some reason, covered in silver colored something that rubs off very easily. Also, it looks like someone tried to repair a leaky o-ring by gooping RTV on the connector and putting a hose clamp on the boot. Huh?

Anyway, both circuit boards are present. If I can confirm good continuity of the harness itself (and traces on the circuit boards), I will start buying parts to rebuild the circuit boards. (Including upgrades, of course.)

Why would I rather do this myself? Because if the problem is not the governor, then I won't have spent however many hundreds of dollars to have the old one rebuilt unnecessarily. (Also -- I'll have a spare!)

DMC5180
06-29-2017, 11:52 PM
You are fortunate to have spare to work with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
06-30-2017, 11:56 AM
You are fortunate to have spare to work with.

Indeed I am. However, there's a ton of electrical tape on the harness. Either it was put there to try to keep everything together, or the insulation was damaged somehow. Once I remove it, I will have to see whether there is damage to just the outer sheath, or whether any of the individual wires was damaged and needs to be replaced. I am not above splicing an entire harness if the connectors have to be re-used. It's more work, but it's easy work.

ATTN Ron or anyone else familiar with the AT governor: on the parts list, two of the transistors are commented "needs verification." Did anyone verify them? I have made my shopping list and I want to make sure all of the parts I get are correct before I buy anything.

Farrar
06-30-2017, 12:49 PM
I have made my shopping list

And it's useless.

The "parts list" on the AT gov. thread in the Resources section of this forum is incomplete. It's nice that I know I need, for example, an 8.25kOhm resistor for R6, but without knowing the wattage, I can't order the proper part. All of these components are in a tiny box which will be heated, so I imagine that proper dissipation is important. I can't order anything from Mouser or DigiKey without having more information.

A few of my friends are electrical engineers. I can swap parts out but I can't analyze the circuit because I never took any EE classes. I'm going to run this by them on Facebook and see if they might be able to help.

Nice to have a spare harness & governor to work on... not so nice to be able to be absolutely useless with it.

RamblinDMC
06-30-2017, 01:43 PM
This is my parts list (mouser) from when I rebuilt my shift governor. I didn't use all of the parts though. Just replacing the main big resistors, all of the capacitors, and the two large transistors got my transmission working correctly again. You really just need the two large TIP42C transistors, and the capacitors. The resistors are probably still fine. I ordered everything on the board just to be safe anyway. The total was something like $16.

Good luck!

I'd be willing to do the work for you if you'd like.

Thanks!
Jayce


523255232652327

DMC5180
06-30-2017, 02:03 PM
It's amazing to see how crudely these boards were made. Hand assembled Technology of the day. Compare that with modern day Surface mount assemblies built by high speed robots. The difference is staggering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bitsyncmaster
06-30-2017, 03:04 PM
This is my parts list (mouser) from when I rebuilt my shift governor. I didn't use all of the parts though. Just replacing the main big resistors, all of the capacitors, and the two large transistors got my transmission working correctly again. You really just need the two large TIP42C transistors, and the capacitors. The resistors are probably still fine. I ordered everything on the board just to be safe anyway. The total was something like $16.

Good luck!

I'd be willing to do the work for you if you'd like.

Thanks!
Jayce


523255232652327

It looks like the two capacitors in your photo #3 have blown the sealing out of the end.

RamblinDMC
06-30-2017, 03:09 PM
It looks like the two capacitors in your photo #3 have blown the sealing out of the end.


They were certainly bad. Good thing I was able to replace them.

Farrar
06-30-2017, 03:21 PM
It's amazing to see how crudely these boards were made. Hand assembled Technology of the day.

One of the things I like to tell people is that although the DMC-12 is associated with the 1980s, it was essentially designed in the 1970s and built to 1970s standards using 1970s technology.

...

An engineer friend of mine is not so sure about the recommended 1N4007 diodes, because of how terrible automotive power is ... he suggests putting a TVS at 18 volts and a Schottky in reverse as better protection.

And because big caps are cheap, he suggests a 33 uF ceramic with 50-100v rating in parallel with the 100 nF. Leave the 100 nF in there because the ESR is probably lower.

Time for me to take a crash course in basic electronics.

Bitsyncmaster
06-30-2017, 04:10 PM
One of the things I like to tell people is that although the DMC-12 is associated with the 1980s, it was essentially designed in the 1970s and built to 1970s standards using 1970s technology.

...

An engineer friend of mine is not so sure about the recommended 1N4007 diodes, because of how terrible automotive power is ... he suggests putting a TVS at 18 volts and a Schottky in reverse as better protection.

And because big caps are cheap, he suggests a 33 uF ceramic with 50-100v rating in parallel with the 100 nF. Leave the 100 nF in there because the ESR is probably lower.

Time for me to take a crash course in basic electronics.

The capacitor voltage rating drops when operated in elevated heat. Probably 25 volt Tantalum caps would be the best choice if they physically fit. The 0.1 uf ceramic caps at 50 volts are the common high frequency bypass caps.

Farrar
06-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Jayce, thanks for your parts list. I will have it on hand for future reference. :)

Farrar
06-30-2017, 05:54 PM
Things are getting very sad for #2613. I have to make a last-ditch attempt to figure out what the problem is. If it is the controller, there's no way Bill is going to replace it. He will more likely tow the car up here and have me deal with it.

If I knew enough about this circuit, I might be able to diagnose controller failure by firing the solenoids manually using some kind of test rig with a couple of switches (and looking at the test lights to confirm). But I do not know enough about this circuit. I need help.

Here's the situation as well as I can remember it:

- wiring harness has been hacked into at the firewall and the original computer governor bypassed in order to install Angwin controller via splices
- splices run from butt connectors at the firewall to one half of a 12-pin molex connector
- Angwin controller is in driver's cubby hole, connected via other half of the 12-pin molex connector

All I have to do in order to remove the Angwin controller is unplug that molex connector. Then I have unfettered access to every wire in that harness except for the diagnostic wires.

I need help from the experts: Is there any way I could remove the Angwin controller and connect a couple of switches to the molex connector in order to test fire those solenoids? All of the wires are labeled by color of the wires in the original wiring harness, so figuring out which wire is easy as long as I know the color.

Farrar
07-01-2017, 04:07 PM
Bill beat me to it: he was able to fire the solenoids manually with a couple of jumper wires.

Now that we know the transmission itself is OK, Bill will mail the Angwin controller to me so that I can repair it, with a little help from my friends. (Apologies to any Beatles fans.)

Jupiterbandit
07-01-2017, 04:39 PM
Congrats on the news. Looks like it's moving forwards. :race:

Farrar
07-01-2017, 10:55 PM
Congrats on the news. Looks like it's moving forwards. :race:

Even slow progress is progress. I'm trying not to be too optimistic. #2613 has a way of fighting repairs. LOL

Farrar
07-03-2017, 03:20 PM
Hack of the day: Bill made a box to fire the shift solenoids manually.

He didn't explain why, but it seems that the wires require the load of a light bulb on each in order to function properly.

After testing with the wheels in the air, he made a successful test drive. He also confirmed that the splices I made into the harness to install the Angwin unit are intact.

It seems the transmission itself is fine, and the failed Angwin controller was definitely the problem. As mentioned before, the Angwin controller is on its way to me for repairs.

EDIT: Bill also ran out of fuel twice. The fuel gauge is pegged all the way up. I'm guessing the previous owner's Grady sender got gunked up with varnish and failed. I ordered a new sender from Houston. Let's hope Bill doesn't get stranded the next time he test drives my car. LOL

Nicholas R
07-03-2017, 03:51 PM
EDIT: Bill also ran out of fuel twice. The fuel gauge is pegged all the way up. I'm guessing the previous owner's Grady sender got gunked up with varnish and failed. I ordered a new sender from Houston. Let's hope Bill doesn't get stranded the next time he test drives my car. LOL

That kind of seems like a: "once, shame on you; twice, shame on me," scenario. Hopefully by now he's learned to keep some gas with him :wink:

DMC5180
07-03-2017, 04:13 PM
If the gauge is pegged straight up, you have an open circuit. It's not necessarily the sending unit itself. I could be oxidization at the cluster PCB or any connection between the sender and Gauge. I take it the the low fuel light is INOP too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Farrar
07-03-2017, 05:27 PM
It's not necessarily the sending unit itself.

I wish I had considered this $170 ago.

Farrar
07-05-2017, 09:49 PM
That kind of seems like a: "once, shame on you; twice, shame on me," scenario. Hopefully by now he's learned to keep some gas with him :wink:

Well, at least he ran out of gas uphill and not far from his house. LOL

Bill is quite satisfied with his little solenoid control box. He changed his mind about sending me the Angwin controller so that I can fix it. Now he has decided that he's not going to mail me the Angwin unit after all, and wants me to drive home firing the solenoids manually. The success of that box depends partly on the load of the light bulbs, which makes me nervous, but that doesn't matter. Bill's work is finished: he installed the 3.0L and confirmed its function, which is exactly what he said he'd do. And considering that my car has sat in his driveway for over a year, I really can't blame him for wanting it gone!

Jupiterbandit
07-06-2017, 06:56 PM
When are you going to get it?

Farrar
07-06-2017, 07:51 PM
When are you going to get it?

Probably some time after Bill receives the new license plates, registration, and insurance proofs that I am sending him in the mail so that he can continue testing the vehicle now that I've moved from Louisiana to New York...

Dangermouse
07-17-2017, 11:10 PM
Can we please keep this thread for Farrars conversion?

Could JB start another thread detailing his experiences rather than hijack this one?

Both are worthy but when they both get intertwined it can be hard to follow.

Ron
07-18-2017, 03:00 PM
Can we please keep this thread for Farrars conversion?

Could JB start another thread detailing his experiences rather than hijack this one?

Both are worthy but when they both get intertwined it can be hard to follow.
Good Idea -- New Thread HERE (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15457-Running)

Farrar
07-18-2017, 07:25 PM
Good Idea -- New Thread HERE (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?15457-Running)

Thank you, Ron!

dn010
07-20-2017, 10:10 AM
Update on the fuel sender? Was it a bad connection/ground or did it end up being the sender?

Farrar
07-24-2017, 07:54 PM
Update on the fuel sender? Was it a bad connection/ground or did it end up being the sender?

The replacement sending unit fixed the problem.

Farrar
07-25-2017, 01:58 PM
The temperature gauge is still completely wacko. It starts at the bottom as normal, but as the engine warms up you can watch the needle move faster and faster until it's almost at the top of the scale even before the thermal trip turns the fans on. I won't be driving the car home any time soon.

Iznodmad
07-25-2017, 02:14 PM
What's the status of the auto trans computer governor issue?

Farrar
07-25-2017, 04:55 PM
What's the status of the auto trans computer governor issue?

The controller has been temporarily bypassed and the solenoids can be controlled manually from inside the vehicle. Not a permanent solution, but good enough to get the car home where I can repair the controller.

Bitsyncmaster
07-25-2017, 05:48 PM
The temperature gauge is still completely wacko. It starts at the bottom as normal, but as the engine warms up you can watch the needle move faster and faster until it's almost at the top of the scale even before the thermal trip turns the fans on. I won't be driving the car home any time soon.

You will need to use the DeLorean gauge sender if you want the gauge to read correctly.

Farrar
07-25-2017, 10:17 PM
You will need to use the DeLorean gauge sender if you want the gauge to read correctly.

I'm using one.

Sending unit threads are the same between the 2.8L and the 3.0L. When the new engine was installed, the previous engine donated its sending units.

However, just to make absolutely sure that we had a functioning temperature sender installed, Bill installed a sender from a different 2.8L and checked that the gauge misbehaved in the exact same way. Then he used your table (from your Electronic Otterstat thread) to measure resistance at varied temperatures.

The sending unit checks out. The gauge is the problem. Right now it is worse than useless: during testing, the needle moved all the way to the right side and is now stuck pointing at the letter F. My theory is the resistor on the back of the gauge has failed. But there's no way to test this theory without removing the gauge cluster. That will be work for when the car is at home in my garage.

#2613 has no Thermo-Time Switch, but there's a threaded hole where one would go. An aftermarket sending unit will be installed into that hole and connected to a temporary gauge fitted inside the car where I can see it, just for peace of mind on the drive home. Once the car is in my garage, I can tackle the transmission computer and the temperature gauge.

DMC5180
07-25-2017, 10:42 PM
Farrar,

did your gauge needle happen to move Backwards to the Right or just keep moving clockwise?

Farrar
07-25-2017, 10:51 PM
Farrar,

did your gauge needle happen to move Backwards to the Right or just keep moving clockwise?

It was pointing straight up when the engine was shut off. My guess is that it simply fell down to the right instead of to the left when shut off.

DMC5180
07-25-2017, 11:12 PM
My gauge wigged out on me a few years ago after sitting over the winter off season. The needle went CCW to the 3 o'clock position. I ended up removing the Cluster and Cleaned All the Trace contacts with Tarn-x this included undoing all the nuts for the Gauge contacts. I put it all back together and the gauge with a few other lights, returned to normal.

Bitsyncmaster
07-26-2017, 06:28 AM
I know how you feel when the temp gauge is not working properly. When I was doing all that testing, the gauge was not showing the engine temp. By the way, our gauge does indicate temps higher than 260 deg. I was also worried I may get the gauge stuck since I've seen that happen on other gauges. But the gauge always did come off that high mark.

Your probably correct in your assuming the calibration resistor on the gauge is making poor contact.

dn010
07-26-2017, 11:11 AM
The best thing to do is spend the time disassembling the cluster and putting pins in the gauges to prevent the needle from swinging out of range.

Farrar
07-26-2017, 12:04 PM
The cooling fans switch on when the gauge sender is at about 158 Ohms and switch off at about 172 Ohms.

What I'd really like to do is replace the entire gauge cluster with something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4N2I3A6OuE

But that is not going to happen any time soon -- partly because the owner who created the Adobe Illustrator template has gone silent, and partly because the project starts with a $600+ cluster set from Dakota Digital. Historically, when I have spent money on something unnecessary, something necessary has failed soon after, and I kick myself for wasting money. It's "needs" only instead of "wants" until I am working full-time again. So I will remove the cluster I have, meticulously clean all of the contacts, and see if it solves my temperature gauge problem. Even if it doesn't, a replacement volt/temp gauge unit is less than a third of the price of the Dakota Digital cluster.

Farrar
07-26-2017, 06:49 PM
Bill found a great place for the temporary "manual shifter."

52615

To quote a very active member of this forum: "...hehe."

Lwanmtr
07-26-2017, 06:53 PM
Just as long as you dont forget which button is which....

Drive Stainless
07-26-2017, 06:54 PM
It needs a buzz word, like "sparky-shiftronic shifter module."

Farrar
07-26-2017, 07:06 PM
Just as long as you dont forget which button is which....

You must think I'm even stupider than I really am.

Lwanmtr
07-26-2017, 07:17 PM
Go to about :50 hehe......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lciq0HpaUw8

Farrar
08-01-2017, 02:38 PM
One step forward: Aftermarket coolant temperature sensor & gauge have been installed and show correct temperature. The temporary gauge sits on top of the console where I can see it while driving.

Two steps back, part one: Another transmission fluid leak. This time it looks like a cracked fitting -- which snapped in two when removal was attempted. The part is no longer available.

Two steps back, part two: Gear oil leak. A few years ago I had a similar leak and solved it by installing flange sleeves and all-rubber seals. Sleeves are stainless steel, so failure is unlikely; I suspect seal failure.

Plans to eventually replace the stock cooler with something better and in a different location have been replaced with plans to immediately replace the stock cooler with something better and in a different location. All-rubber axle seals will be replaced with OEM-equivalent seals.

Parts have been ordered and will ship today.