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content22207
09-05-2011, 08:25 AM
Paint flexes.

I use brushed enamel BTW, not rattle can. The properties when dry are totally different. This is what my very flexible sway bar looks like after nearly two years of use:
485848574856

(Please ignore the control arms and springs -- they are currently off the car, getting 10 fresh coats themselves).

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc
09-07-2011, 03:07 PM
Paint flexes.

I use brushed enamel BTW, not rattle can. The properties when dry are totally different. This is what my very flexible sway bar looks like after nearly two years of use:
485848574856

(Please ignore the control arms and springs -- they are currently off the car, getting 10 fresh coats themselves).

Bill Robertson
#5939

What is that metal plate we see attached to your frame? Some sort of reinforcement? I love seeing pictures of your mods.

sean
09-07-2011, 03:31 PM
What is that metal plate we see attached to your frame? Some sort of reinforcement? I love seeing pictures of your mods.

Just wait til you see the rest of it.

content22207
09-07-2011, 04:11 PM
The Grand Canyon:
4944

Top side of the Grand Canyon -- only the underside flops loose:
4945

Let's fix it...

Aluminum channels:
4946 4947
(Lower front edges have been reshaped slightly since those pics were taken)

Big plate across the front:
4948

And of course some bling (aluminum horn brackets):
4949

Repair was made February 2009. Despite dire predictions at the time that I was going to KILL SOMEBODY, the little car has logged at least 15,000 trouble free miles since. Repair was in place when Louie and I drove to New Orleans last year.

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc
09-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Wow. That is pretty amazing. Its a shame you aren't in the Delorean repair business.

content22207
09-07-2011, 04:58 PM
I have the templates if you want a set.

#2508 got them:
4952 4950 4951

BTW: Please excuse the rusty suspension in #5939's pics. I am in the middle of fixing that -- I promise:
4954 4953

Bill Robertson
#5939

stevedmc
09-07-2011, 07:02 PM
I have the templates if you want a set.

It is pretty tempting although I don't think my frame is that bad. Maybe 16510 can get an evaluation at DCS.

content22207
09-07-2011, 08:01 PM
The Grand Canyon is a PO weld repair that failed.

Having welded #2508's crumple extension, I can attest that it is an extremely difficult area to work in, especially using flux core wire. You will burn a hole straight through it very quickly.

I suspect #5939's welder vaporized the metal underneath his bead. The bead was only hanging on by its edges, and ultimately let go.

My new suspensions should be common knowledge by now:
4957
I anticipate loads on the crumple extension will be negligible thereafter. #5939's extension did do just fine with the full force of the LCA's pushing and pulling on it. Now, all it will have to deal with is the sway bar doing what sway bars are supposed to do (using the sway bar as backwards thrust arms was madness -- the damn thing is too flexible for that).

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-07-2011, 08:30 PM
The Grand Canyon is a PO weld repair that failed.

Having welded #2508's crumple extension, I can attest that it is an extremely difficult area to work in, especially using flux core wire. You will burn a hole straight through it very quickly.


Um, yes. Flux core is not the right welding process for our frames!

I'd recommend tig for the thin metal on our frames. _MAYBE_ mig, but tig is probably best.

--buddy

content22207
09-07-2011, 09:45 PM
You work with the tools at hand. I have two welders: a little 110 flux core MIG and a gasoline powered stick welder -- I chose the lesser of two evils (I can only dial the stick welder down to 70 amps).

It isn't pretty, but it worked.

There actually is an art to flux welding. Gas welders like to look down their noses at us, but if you ever hand one of them a flux gun they are as helpless as babes in the woods (they keep trying to draw a puddle and end up burning holes in everything they touch).

Bill Robertson
#5939

DeLorean
09-07-2011, 10:52 PM
Now, all it will have to deal with is the sway bar doing what sway bars are supposed to do (using the sway bar as backwards thrust arms was madness -- the damn thing is too flexible for that).

Bill Robertson
#5939


Sver seen a Saturn SL or SW?? They do the same thing and don't ever pop wheels off. Sway bars being used as wheel LCA control is common, not just a DeLorean thing.

vwdmc16
09-07-2011, 11:45 PM
yes but its a insufficient way to locate the arm for and aft.

My car is from Massachusetts originally and the front wasnt as bad as the rear but was definitively weak.

I Mig welded up the cracks in the tubes and then plated 3 sides with 12 ga steel, a real pain but the car is much better now
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2899.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2907.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2885.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2892.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2890.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c396/vwdmc16/dmc/100_2973.jpg

Kenny_Z
09-08-2011, 12:22 AM
Try driving a car with that same weak lower control arm design and no sway bar. I'm surprised anyone survived the 60s.

That frame scares the hell out of me, Bill. I'm not doubting the reinforcement, it looks strong enough for our cars. My OCD wouldn't of let me get away with that hole. I'd of filled or plated it somehow. I'm the guy that worked with a couple of stick magnets for hours inside a frame to get a reinforcement plate in just the right spot. Then again I expect frame twisting from engines I'm used to tinkering on ;)

nullset
09-08-2011, 01:37 AM
You work with the tools at hand. I have two welders: a little 110 flux core MIG and a gasoline powered stick welder -- I chose the lesser of two evils (I can only dial the stick welder down to 70 amps).


That's one of those times when I would look and say "I don't have the right tool for this job".

The very thin metal does not respond well to flux core welding.



It isn't pretty, but it worked.


Or so you think. Did you have the welds inspected? It's very easy to make pretty nice looking welds with mig that have no penetration at all…..



There actually is an art to flux welding. Gas welders like to look down their noses at us, but if you ever hand one of them a flux gun they are as helpless as babes in the woods (they keep trying to draw a puddle and end up burning holes in everything they touch).


I have the luxury of being good friends with a professional metal worker. I've seen him do just about everything imaginable with mig, tig, stick and even oxyacetylene. He knows his stuff…..

It's good to have friends that know what they're doing! Welding is far outside of my area of expertise.

--buddy

content22207
09-08-2011, 01:41 AM
That frame scares the hell out of me

That's not the frame -- it's an extension that hangs off the front of the frame. On a normal car all it would do is hold the radiator up. Only Lotus could design a car that also uses it to keep the lower control arms in position (the sway bar pushes and pulls on the crumple extension continuously as the lower control arms try to fold up underneath the car). If you ever have an opportunity to wiggle your OEM LCA's with the sway bar removed, you will be amazed at how floppy they are. Mike Loasby tells the story of LCA's actually folding up when he was test driving one of the mules at Hethel (the solution: bigger washers).

My new combination of Byrne's LCA's and Ed's outriggers will be extremely solid. I've already done a dry run, and even without a sway bar attached they do not move fore/aft one bit. If I didn't need something to hold the radiator, my crumple extensions would in fact be optional.

As already stated, I have been driving my car since February 2009 with a repaired crumple extension no problem. Despite protestations from everyone and his brother, it has traveled as far North as New York, as far south as New Orleans, and as far west as Kentucky. I logged nearly 10,000 miles last year alone. Numerous people have ridden and driven my car with nothing bad to say about the experience other than my cassette tape deck. It's all ancient history now, but had I wanted to I could have left the OEM suspension in place no problem.

Bill Robertson
#5939


I have the luxury of being good friends with a professional metal worker.

I have the luxury of telling people to kiss my assets.


Did you have the welds inspected? It's very easy to make pretty nice looking welds with mig that have no penetration at all…..

Converse is also true: It is possible to make ugly looking welds that hold better than virgin steel. Never once has anything I've stuck together ever come apart. I used to repair locomotives....

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-08-2011, 01:56 AM
I have the luxury of telling people to kiss my assets.


Bill,

I wasn't rude to you. Why did you suddenly decide to be rude to me?



Converse is also true: It is possible to make ugly looking welds that hold better than virgin steel. Never once has anything I've stuck together ever come apart. I used to repair locomotives….


That's definitely true.

If you're an experienced welder, then perhaps your welds are fine. I know enough to know that I can't do proper frame welding, so I call in an expert.

Anecdotal evidence does not count for anything. Has your car been in a collision? That's what would REALLY tell you whether those welds will hold, but it's a test I hope you never have to experience.

Try losing some hostility, and you may find that you get along with others much better.

--buddy

content22207
09-08-2011, 02:22 AM
All I did was add some plates to the upper portion of the shock towers to reinforce them. Since that is where my new suspension stops, I wanted the shock towers to be as beefy as possible (of course the new suspension isn't going anywhere near the *TOP* of the shock towers, so reinforcing them up there didn't really accomplish anything). I did run beads down the edges of the shock towers and across the bottom. There were a few rust holes at the bottom of the passenger shock tower, so I put a plate across it too.

Underneath I ran a bead along the front of the crossmember, where the individual sheets that make it up (the crossmember is *NOT* made from a single piece of 1/8" steel) had rusted and were looking ragged -- hardly a major structural defect.

If you want to run around with your hands in the air, point at #5939 which wasn't even welded on -- all I've done is clean it up and paint it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

vwdmc16
09-08-2011, 02:48 AM
Mike Loasby tells the story of LCA's actually folding up when he was test driving one of the mules at Hethel (the solution: bigger washers).



I did something similar when i AutoX my '87 Yugo with R comp tires.

Nicholas R
09-08-2011, 03:24 AM
I did a crumple zone replacement over July 4th weekend. Took about 12 hours exactly from being raised on the lift to being lowered off the lift. Used a MIG welder for the welding; turned out great and it's solid as a rock. Front end has never felt so tight.

Bitsyncmaster
09-08-2011, 05:35 AM
I've found using a MIG with 0.025" wire and gas shielding, welding 0.050" thick steel is about the thinest I can do reliably. And that would not be under the car working above my head. How thick is that crumple tube metal?

sean
09-08-2011, 08:02 AM
It isn't pretty, but it worked.

:shock: ;)


Bill,

I wasn't rude to you. Why did you suddenly decide to be rude to me?


Its probably because you and I know each other so you can blame me.


Try losing some hostility, and you may find that you get along with others much better.

:thumbup2:

content22207
09-08-2011, 08:19 AM
How thick is that crumple tube metal?

I'm guessing 18 gauge. Can't accurately measure mine now because it has so much paint layered on it (and a couple pieces of 1/8" aluminum). It is noticeably thinner than the pieces that make up the shock tower.

I made a couple of unpleasant discoveries while stripping #2508's extension and shock towers:
- The bottom of the crossmember is not made of one piece of steel -- it's actually 3 or 4 layers of sheet metal laying on top of each other
- There is absolutely no vertical reinforcement inside the crumple extension whatsoever. It is completely supported by the 4 pieces of sheet metal that make up its outer skin. On #2508, both pieces by the steering rack boots were badly bent (probably the type of damage that prompted the recall brackets -- I have seen several DeLoreans bent in exactly the same place). I straightened them out with 6 inch channel locks, but they had already started to fatigue tear on the edges. That is why I replicated #5939's aluminum channels (at the time I anticipated using a stock LCA's, which put very significant vertical loads on the crumple extension).
- I couldn't see any evidence of spot welding on the shock towers. The only weld beads are at the top. That is why I ran a bead down the front (joins the original two bottom sections together, and my new upper plates to the original top section). I also ran beads inside the bottom of the shock towers.

Bill Robertson
#5939

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 09:06 AM
I'm guessing 18 gauge. Can't accurately measure mine now because it has so much paint layered on it (and a couple pieces of 1/8" aluminum). It is noticeably thinner than the pieces that make up the shock tower.

I made a couple of unpleasant discoveries while stripping #2508's extension and shock towers:
- The bottom of the crossmember is not made of one piece of steel -- it's actually 3 or 4 layers of sheet metal laying on top of each otherBill Robertson
#5939

That's incorrect. If your car was like that it was either:

a) Poor repair by previous owner

b) Rusted so badly that the metal was separating into layers.

John

dn010
09-08-2011, 09:12 AM
The metal that makes up the sides of the crumple tube are extremely thin; I believe the top and bottom are thicker gauge.

I grafted the front section of my frame from the crumple tube down to the middle "Y" of the fuel tank area and welded using MIG. It has been fine for about 7 or 8 years now, even with hitting terrible pot holes in upstate NY.

The thing I'd be concerned about is layering metal- one on top of the other without sealing it - it will hold water in between and start rusting. I've used KBS, POR, etc and water still finds a way to the metal after years (vibration-movement wearing paint down? who knows)....

content22207
09-08-2011, 09:34 AM
The whole frame is made of layered metal. Look at the shock towers -- they are a conglomeration of a bunch of individual pieces, hopefully spot welded together. The only weld beads are at the top.

This is what I found when I wire wheeled the front of #2508's crossmember:
4959

The epoxy coating hides a lot of mischief. When you strip it off you can really see how the thing was put together. For example, the tubes that hold the crumple extension to the frame are actually two sheet metal U channels welded together.

My biggest concern was vertical loads. The sway bar continuously pushes and especially pulls (braking) on the crumple extension as it tries to keep the lower control arms in place. The crumple extension is fine side to side -- it's the vertical dimension that seems to be particularly vulnerable. That is why I replicated #5939's side channels on #2508. Not only do they reinforce the original crumple extension structure, but they bridge the gaps around the steering rack where there originally was no vertical support whatsoever.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
09-08-2011, 09:39 AM
... #5939's side channels. Not only do they reinforce the original crumple extension structure, but they bridge the gap around the steering rack where there originally was no vertical support whatsoever.

It's for this reason I would like to have a look at those templates. The next time I put the car in the air it will be for radiator fan replacement -- I might as well do the work on the front suspension while I've got that area apart.

If the templates aren't small enough to post on DMCTalk, I could put them on the GCD website.

Farrar

content22207
09-08-2011, 10:03 AM
4963

Bill Robertson
#5939

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 10:06 AM
What I'm saying is - that plate at the bottom of the crossmember could appear to have been made up of many sheets if it is severly rusted through, however it was not made that way. It was a rectangle made from a single layer of 2mm/2.5mm or so plate.

Here are some pics from when I opened up one of mine - it's pretty clear that it is made from a single layer of ordinary steel sheet.

http://www.delorean.ie/images/IMG_4380.JPG

http://www.delorean.ie/images/IMG_4377.JPG

More at this link:

http://www.delorean.ie/chassis3.html

It is definitely not many layers of very thin metal somehow held together - that would make no sense. Why would they go to all that trouble instead of just using ordinary 2mm plate.

Sure, there are areas where there is a double skin on the chassis, such as on the shock towers, but the plate at the bottom of the front cross member is not such an area.

John

content22207
09-08-2011, 10:09 AM
And people have the audacity to criticize my frame....

With all due respect, neither of my frames have ever looked like that.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sean
09-08-2011, 10:14 AM
And people have the audacity to criticize my frame....


Who's criticized?

dn010
09-08-2011, 10:14 AM
You think that's bad? I should upload pictures of mine before I cut the front couple feet off it! :jawdrop:

content22207
09-08-2011, 10:32 AM
Who's criticized?

How short is our dear moderator's memory. If anyone ever manages to resurrect the old site, go back and reread the thread where I first posted my repair (the one where Josh Bengston posted in uber big letters that I was going to KILL SOMEBODY.

This thread is much shorter, but already by page two people were questioning #5939:

That frame scares the hell out of me

With 1/2" of combined aluminum reinforcement, I will bet my next non-existent paycheck that both my crumple extensions are stronger in the vertical plane than even a brand one.

Sean may have forgotten, but I beached #5939 on a concrete island during a tornado on the way to pick up Jim Franklin's car. Bent the hell out of the front edge of the passenger side channel (look closely and you can see it still bows outwards slightly), but my crumple extension held. After cutting the damage out I decided I like it better that way, and #2508's channels were shaped accordingly from the beginning.

Bill Robertson
#5939

sean
09-08-2011, 10:37 AM
How short is our dear moderator's memory.

I tend to block out most my Bill memories. Ok so Josh didn't like. Now we know it was one person. Seems the majority are fine with what you did to your car since it's your car, that's good news.


Sean may have forgotten, but I beached #5939 on a concrete island during a tornado on the way to pick up Jim Franklin's car.

But I do remember this! I was concerned for you guys during that spell.

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 10:38 AM
And people have the audacity to criticize my frame....

With all due respect, neither of my frames have ever looked like that.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I don't see your point? Yes my frame was bad... no shame in that.

I fixed it the right way and now it's great!

http://www.delorean.ie/images/IMG_5577.JPG

Results - http://www.delorean.ie/frame17.html

John

sean
09-08-2011, 10:39 AM
I fixed it the right way...

Uh oh...


Looks great BTW John!

content22207
09-08-2011, 10:50 AM
I fixed it the right way

Take your pick:
- My repair is the wrong way
- There are multiple right ways to accomplish the same thing

I 100% guarantee my repair was faster and cheaper (one weekend, about $40 at the time).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Farrar
09-08-2011, 10:59 AM
Looks great BTW John!

+1 on that. I love the look of a galvanized frame.

Farrar

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 11:07 AM
Take your pick:
- My repair is the wrong way
- There are multiple right ways to accomplish the same thing

I don't think we accomplished the same thing, given that mine is welded 3mm steel. Yours is aluminum and pop rivets.



I 100% guarantee my repair was faster and cheaper (one weekend, about $40 at the time).

Bill Robertson
#5939

and it looks it!

Mine took a long time because I removed and stripped the frame as I wanted to hot-dip galvanise the frame once repaired.

However, the same repairs (cutting out old rust, making new pieces and welding back in) could have easily been done with the frame in the car if I was happy to just paint the fresh metal.

The material cost of my repairs was only about $40 too. I paid a local welder something like $200 for his time

You being someone who repairs trains, I'm curious why you didn't try to repair by cutting out the damaged areas and welding in new metal, especially if the material cost is similar and the time would be similar if the frame was left in the car?

John

content22207
09-08-2011, 11:14 AM
My side channels bolt on (pressed on actually -- it's a very tight fit. Notice the clamps still on #2508 ).

All the bolts do is keep the side channel in place. There are two through the lower U channel in the back, and the front is of course secured with the radiator bracket bolts.

Can Sean put you on record as criticizing my frame?

Bill Robertson
#5939

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 11:20 AM
I've asked you questions in both my posts - no replies from you?

You'd love to have someone criticizing your frame - but I'm actually asking you why you repaired it the way you did...

content22207
09-08-2011, 11:28 AM
Because I'm an aluminum fabricator?

Because aluminum is strong yet lightweight? (And rustproof...).

Because the rest of my crumple extension was fine -- only a PO weld repair was missing?

Because my crumple extension is about to have its stress loads virtually eliminated? (Double wishbone suspension, or at least the closest I can come to it).

Bill Robertson
#5939

sean
09-08-2011, 11:55 AM
I've asked you questions in both my posts - no replies from you?

Get used to it. :D



Can Sean put you on record as criticizing my frame?


Don't worry bill, he's on the list now! We are up to two! :D

Kenny_Z
09-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Actually Bill, I wasn't criticizing your frame repair, I just stated that the gaping hole scared the hell out of me. I really was criticizing the previous owner of your car and how he would think that selling someone a car like that. I hope he told you about the damage before you purchased the car.

content22207
09-08-2011, 01:10 PM
The weld bead didn't fall out until December 2008.

I really don't care whether any purist or guru approves of anything I do to my car or not -- it's my fucking car. I can do anything I want to it because my name is the only name on the title. Nobody else even has a vote.

I will let them kiss my ass.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-08-2011, 01:19 PM
The weld bead didn't fall out until December 2008.

I really don't care whether any purist or guru approves of anything I do to my car or not -- it's my fucking car. I can do anything I want to it because my name is the only name on the title. Nobody else even has a vote.

I will let them kiss my ass.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I just spoke with the DMV in your state. They are sending a safety inspector to verify whether the repairs are acceptable under Federal and State regulations.

If you are found to be in violation, your registration will be pulled and your insurance invalidated until you have a proper DOT certified repair in place. If you do not have the repair performed properly within 30 days, your vehicle will be automatically re-issued a salvage title and operating it will get it impounded.

--buddy

Farrar
09-08-2011, 01:27 PM
They are sending a safety inspector to verify whether the repairs are acceptable under Federal and State regulations.

http://watchoutfunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/f897oh-shit.jpg

opethmike
09-08-2011, 01:35 PM
:popcorn:

content22207
09-08-2011, 01:35 PM
I just spoke with the DMV in your state. They are sending a safety inspector to verify whether the repairs are acceptable under Federal and State regulations.

North Carolina is bankrupt -- try again.

(Even if the state had some money, Republicans are in control now -- try again).

Bill Robertson
#5939

dmcjohn
09-08-2011, 04:41 PM
The weld bead didn't fall out until December 2008.

I really don't care whether any purist or guru approves of anything I do to my car or not -- it's my fucking car. I can do anything I want to it because my name is the only name on the title. Nobody else even has a vote.

I will let them kiss my ass.

Bill Robertson
#5939

I'm neither a purist nor a guru, and actually I don't really care what you do to your car. I was more curious why you decided to do what you did, so asked a few questions - this is a discussion forum, right?!

Why do you post all the time about the various modifications on your car if you are not open to comment and question? You or anyone else can question anything I've done to my cars and I'll give you a respectful answer.

John

content22207
09-08-2011, 05:41 PM
If somebody pushes, I am going to push back.

I've already told you why my crumple extension was repaired with aluminum channels. It hasn't given me a lick of trouble since. The car logged nearly 10,000 miles last year alone. In my circumstance at least, the repair worked splendidly.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-08-2011, 05:45 PM
If somebody pushes, I am going to push back.

I've already told you why my crumple extension was repaired with aluminum channels. It hasn't given me a lick of trouble since. The car logged nearly 10,000 miles last year alone. In my circumstance at least, the repair worked splendidly.

Bill Robertson
#5939

If someone offers a different way of making a repair, I'll tell them to kiss my ass because it's my car!

Most of these threads will be around for a long time [1], so if someone comes here looking for information on repairing a frame, then other options should be mentioned. Yet you just snap at anyone that suggests that there might be a better way, or a better tool, or a better fuel delivery system. You take it personally. That's the repair you've done. Great. How have other people done the repair?


--buddy
[1]: Until dmctalk.org goes away and we move to dmctalk.xxx, that is…..

SamHill
09-08-2011, 06:08 PM
I just spoke with the DMV in your state. They are sending a safety inspector to verify whether the repairs are acceptable under Federal and State regulations.

If you are found to be in violation, your registration will be pulled and your insurance invalidated until you have a proper DOT certified repair in place. If you do not have the repair performed properly within 30 days, your vehicle will be automatically re-issued a salvage title and operating it will get it impounded.

--buddy

Was this a serious post?

DeLorean
09-08-2011, 06:14 PM
I love how people think only DeLorean could use such a shitty suspension set up, incorporating the sway-bar as an LCA locating / control (basically using the sway bar as a track-rod).

I could easily name 10 other cars that have this or similar front suspension set up. It works just fine!

content22207
09-08-2011, 06:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMHO4Aydk04

Bill Robertson
#5939

content22207
09-08-2011, 06:36 PM
other options should be mentioned.

Start your own thread.

I was kicked out of Mike Lund's EFI thread and all my posts were deleted. I wonder if our impartial moderator will extend the same courtesy to me in my threads.

Bill Robertson
#5939

DeLorean
09-08-2011, 06:48 PM
the main difference between the D suspension, and say a saturn front suspension is the thickness of the sway bar and the front sway bar brackets. It it fairly obvious that those should have been stronger, however with this sort of a set up, the LCA itself can be pretty flimsy.

These are saturn LCA's -

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRo3C6740XZuEdfkUpxwIMHPjPKl_eyo c0gWeOMtJAmNTGNax_u

content22207
09-08-2011, 07:37 PM
Was this a serious post?

North Carolina DMV doesn't make house calls. They don't even do roadside enforcement anymore -- that's been turned over to the Highway Patrol, which is currently running a 100 trooper deficit due to budgetary restrictions (note to truckers who need to run overweight or violate their hours of service).

My car may kill me in a fiery crash, but my chances of rotting away in a DMV prison cell are fairly small.

That said, if worse does come to worse, will you visit me?

Bill Robertson
#5939

SamHill
09-08-2011, 08:59 PM
That said, if worse does come to worse, will you visit me?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Sure, I'll reside there myself, along with the cat gutters, BTTF converters and engine swappers who have been informed on by the SEDOC Modification Gestapo. (Godwin's law!)

Kenny_Z
09-08-2011, 09:11 PM
I'm surprised the Saturn lcas look like that. Usually a manufacturer will go with stamped steel since that is the cheapest route (sometimes).

That being said I love the upgraded lcas Bill has installed. I want a set but I'm trying to control myself (no pun intended). The other cars need things more right now.

ramblinmike
09-08-2011, 10:32 PM
(Even if the state had some money, Republicans are in control now -- try again).



That is funny!

I've got my popcorn as well!

:popcorn:

Nicholas R
09-09-2011, 01:07 AM
I've found using a MIG with 0.025" wire and gas shielding, welding 0.050" thick steel is about the thinest I can do reliably. And that would not be under the car working above my head. How thick is that crumple tube metal?

Anyone know how thick the crumple zone is itself? I'm not sure but I know ones that Ken Koncelik has made are either one or two gauges thicker than the originals. When I welded mine I found the frame of the car was too thick for TIG, not to mention there was no way I could get to where it needed welded. I worked a little with stick (SMAW), even low amp small rods but it was just too hot for the sheet metal. Settled on MIG and it worked great! The trick was to do plan for more than one pass on each weld, that way the finished product had really good penetration and coverage.

nullset
09-09-2011, 01:20 PM
Start your own thread.

I was kicked out of Mike Lund's EFI thread and all my posts were deleted. I wonder if our impartial moderator will extend the same courtesy to me in my threads.

Bill Robertson
#5939

As far as I'm concerned, this isn't "your thread". Do you own it?

It may be a thread about something you did to your car, but it was actually started by someone else…..

Also, I thought it was obvious that my post about reporting Bill to the DMV was a joke. Especially since I didn't even recall what state he lived in.

The EPA inspectors will be there shortly, though. They were very interested in his emissions related modifications. (Oops, this should go in a different thread….)

--buddy

content22207
09-09-2011, 03:12 PM
My best buddy Sean made it for me -- he's swell.

Bill Robertson
#5939

SamHill
09-09-2011, 04:56 PM
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't "your thread". Do you own it?

--buddy

Walk it off, Goebbels.

sean
09-09-2011, 04:57 PM
Walk it off, Goebbels.

Your stealing Chad's thunder there Sammy.

TheDutchTexan
09-09-2011, 08:17 PM
To be honest, I really doubt that frame would pass a DOT test. But the distance travelled does tell one the repair is a solid one (just not very pretty).

Michael
09-09-2011, 08:23 PM
I don't know what everyone is so upset about.....Have you seen his Ford?
http://media.youdrivewhat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/car1109NC.jpg

PS: this was taken in NC so.....

nullset
09-09-2011, 08:25 PM
To be honest, I really doubt that frame would pass a DOT test. But the distance travelled does tell one the repair is a solid one (just not very pretty).

Distance traveled has nothing to do with how it would fare in a collision……

--buddy

Dracula
09-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Your stealing Chad's thunder there Sammy.

Exactly. Don't make me brake out the Howitzers.

content22207
09-09-2011, 08:54 PM
[QUOTE=nullset;19282]Distance traveled has nothing to do with how it would fare in a collision……;/QUOTE]

Why are you being such a dick?

Unless you have added reinforcements yourself, my crumple extension is stronger than yours is.

My crumple extension has two 1/8" thick aluminum channels bolted to its sides. While their primary purpose is to transfer vertical loads back to the crossmember, they also make my crumple extension much stouter in the event of a collision.

In conjunction with the plate across the front (which actually was added as an afterthought), my crumple extension has 1/2" of solid aluminum reinforcement that no other owner has -- not even you.

The stock crumple extension bears all vertical forces from the swaybar, which is being pushed and pulled by the LCA's as well as plowing into curves, with just four pieces of very thin gauge steel. The recall brackets put disproportionate stress on the outer walls, which have a gap for steering rack clearance. I am sure that is why the sides were bent on #2508. My channels are designed not only to increase metal on the vertical plane, but also to transfer vertical forces all the way back to the crossmember.

The fact that my crumple extension survived being beached on a concrete island verifies how stout it is. I could jack my car up by the side channels, which is more than even your crumple extension could bear.

Bill Robertson
#5939

content22207
09-09-2011, 09:34 PM
Just so there is no misunderstanding, this is how my side channels work:

4999

They are made from 1/8" thick structural aluminum tube, and wrap around the top and bottom of the crumple extension. It's a very tight fit (I have to press them on with bar clamps). Bolts in the front and back ensure that the channels stay in place.

1/8" thick steel plates transfer any stress from the rear bolts to the sides of the lower U channels:

5000

#5939's passenger side channel is bowed slightly from bearing the weight of the car on a concrete island (I couldn't even see the front fascia while trying to get off the road during a tornado outbreak). Lower front edge was totally collapsed, so I cut it off -- a design change I like better and incorporated into #2508's channels from the beginning:

5001

This perspective shows front attachment (radiator and horn brackets bolt through the channels), cut back lower edge, and wrap around fit. (Ignore the upper radiator brackets, which as you can see have since been stripped and painted with 10 coats of brushed enamel).

5002 5004

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 10:03 PM
[QUOTE=nullset;19282]Distance traveled has nothing to do with how it would fare in a collision……;/QUOTE]

Why are you being such a dick?


I'm not. I'm just stating fact. "Being a dick" would be, oh, I don't know, calling someone a dick?

I've made no personal attacks. You did. Twice so far. Which part of my statement was "being a dick"?



Unless you have added reinforcements yourself, my crumple extension is stronger than yours is.

My crumple extension has two 1/8" thick aluminum channels bolted to its sides. While their primary purpose is to transfer vertical loads back to the crossmember, they also make my crumple extension much stouter in the event of a collision.


And those bolts are not as strong as a solid piece of metal or a weld.

This is my opinion, and I believe it to be true. It is not an insult to your knowledge or experience….just a disagreement. You do not have to agree with me. I do not have to agree with you.

--buddy

content22207
09-09-2011, 10:09 PM
Exactly what part of "my side channels' primary purpose is to reinforce the crumple extension vertically and transfer vertical loads to the crossmember" do you not understand?

My crumple extension is exposed to vertical stresses every single time I drive the car. That is what the side channels are there for.

I do not hit walls with the front end on a daily basis.

But if I ever do decide to drive into a wall, I 100% guarantee that my crumple extension, by virtue of the side channels will provide at least a smidgen more protection than a crumple extension without them will.

Geez, give it a rest already.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 10:14 PM
My crumple extension is exposed to vertical stresses every single time I drive the car. That is what the side channels are there for.


You bolted a piece of aluminum over a rusty and broken piece of metal, and declared it to be stronger.

I believe that a proper welding repair would've been a better choice. I would not want someone else to see what you've done, and start drilling and bolting pieces of aluminum over rust spots on their frame, because "Well, bill did it and drove ten thousand miles!"

--buddy

Nicholas R
09-09-2011, 10:21 PM
I though the purpose of a "crumple zone" wast to "crumple" in the event of a collision, in order to absorb as much energy as possible rather than transferring it to the rest of the car. Is this a concern? Not an attack, just an observation since yours is so strong now. I suppose the best idea is to just plan on not being involved in any collisions haha :biggrin:

content22207
09-09-2011, 10:33 PM
You bolted a piece of aluminum over a rusty and broken piece of metal, and declared it to be stronger.

Bullshit. I stripped and painted my entire crumple extension. It is not rusty at all.

Stop being a dick.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 10:35 PM
Bullshit. I stripped and painted my entire crumple extension. It is not rusty at all.

Stop being a dick.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Stop attacking me personally. The first picture on this thread is a piece of metal with a huge hole in it. Is this not what your channels are bolted to and covering?

If I am mistaken, then what is covering the hole in your frame or crumple extension?

nullset
09-09-2011, 10:38 PM
Bullshit. I stripped and painted my entire crumple extension. It is not rusty at all.

Stop being a dick.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Even if I'm wrong, that doesn't make me "a dick". If you were wrong about something, I'd tell you why I thought you were wrong, without saying "stop being a dick".

So, stop being an (redacted).

content22207
09-09-2011, 10:42 PM
... since yours is so strong now.

It's strength is vertical -- exactly where the original design is weakest.

Of course there is going to be some increased crush resistance simply due to the increased mass of metal, but that metal is aluminum so it ultimately will bend.

Just so I am clear: strengthening the lower control arms is good, but strengthening the crumple extension (especially in the vertical plane), is bad?

Strengthening the door strut balls is good, but strengthening the crumple extension (especially in the vertical plane), is bad?

Strengthening the front fascia above the headlights is good, but strengthening the crumple extension (especially in the vertical plane), is bad?

Strengthening the headliner boards is good, but strengthening the crumple extension (especially in the vertical plane), is bad?

Strengthening the engine cover and/or sunshade is good, but strengthening the crumple extension (especially in the vertical plane), is bad?

Bill Robertson
#5939

content22207
09-09-2011, 10:48 PM
Stop attacking me personally. The first picture on this thread is a piece of metal with a huge hole in it. Is this not what your channels are bolted to and covering?

If I am mistaken, then what is covering the hole in your frame or crumple extension?

Nothing is covering it -- it is still there (that is how I was able to take a picture of it...).

That piece of sheet metal is laying flat. It provides no vertical strength whatsoever. There are only four pieces of sheet metal in the entire crumple extension that do so, and not a single one of them even extends back to the crossmember.

I studied my crumple extension at length before designing the side channels. This was a carefully planned modification, and it has been proven in the real world, not only through tens of thousands of miles of use, but by actually supporting the weight of the car on one of the channels.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 10:51 PM
Nothing is covering it -- it is still there (that is how I was able to take a picture of it...).

That piece of sheet metal is laying flat. It provides no vertical strength whatsoever. There are only four pieces of sheet metal in the entire crumple extension that do so, and not a single one of them even extends back to the crossmember.

I studied my crumple extension at length before designing the side channels. This was a carefully planned modification, and it has been proven in the real world, not only through tens of thousands of miles of use, but by actually supporting the weight of the car on one of the channels.

Bill Robertson
#5939

So you just left a gaping hole there? Wow.

My mistake. I thought you were trying to cover the hole with the aluminum pieces.

I don't know when the conversation shifted from properly dealing with a weld to other things you'd put on your car.

I'm still not sure about strengthening a crumple tube, but that's for the NHTSA to figure out, not me.

Have fun with your non-crumple tube. I hope it's never involved in a front end collision.

--buddy

content22207
09-09-2011, 11:15 PM
You ignorant fool, don't you think I considered just welding a piece of sheet metal to the bottom of the crumple extension? That sure would have been easier than designing and making my side channels, but it would have been cosmetic only, about as effective as welding a patch on a fender (and the damndest thing is you probably would shut up if that is what I had done). A piece if sheet metal laying on its side provides extremely little vertical strength. I'm sorry if you don't like that fact, but don't complain to me -- I'm not the one who invented physical properties.

I used the occasion of my repair to study the crumple extension and design an improvement that makes it significantly stronger in the dimension where it is weakest, which unfortunately is the dimension subjected to the greatest stresses.

I like my side channels so much that they were recreated for #2508. I even templated them so they can be recreated a third time should I get another DeLorean.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Sean,

Can you remove the personal attacks from this thread?

--buddy
PS: Including my own, if I made any….

content22207
09-09-2011, 11:24 PM
If you don't like people calling you out on your behavior, stop acting that way.

Bill Robertson
#5939

nullset
09-09-2011, 11:25 PM
Again, you're the only one insulting. I've not said anything bad about you.

--buddy

stevedmc
09-09-2011, 11:33 PM
As far as I'm concerned, this isn't "your thread". Do you own it?

It may be a thread about something you did to your car, but it was actually started by someone else…..

I had no idea that commenting on Bill's frame would have spun off another thread with so much debate. Somebody needs to just create a thread titled "Bill sucks" and everyone can go make fun of him and his car there. Sean could move every anti Bill post there and I'm sure it would be interesting. For the record, none of my posts would end up there.

Mike C.
09-09-2011, 11:40 PM
No more. Hash it out via p.m. Once you all learn to play nice, you'll get ur thread back.