VIN 3307 Drag Race Videos/In-Car/Warm Idle/DMC CA Cams-Result:Stock Peformance-Help!

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Tonight I decided the time was right to take VIN 3307 to the track to see the performance increases over the stock engine set-up.

Let me first set you up on the background....

I have drag raced casually for over 12 years, not professionally, but I know my way around the track, tree, and driving techniques comfortably....

I did not get to drive or test my car before the performance upgrades to have a comparison...The car runs great; no hesitation, smooth acceleration, etc. However, I don't have a stock car to drive and compare to.....

Below are the parts that differ from stock:

DMC-CA Performance Camshafts (advertised +62HP)
http://www.dmccal.com/102707hp_high_performance_cams.html
Ported and Polished Heads,Valve Job (HP increase unknown)
Cat Converter Delete Pipe (HP increase unknown)
K&N Filter/Hervey Cold Air Intake (HP increase unknown)
Taylor 8mm Wires, Pertronix Coil (HP increase unknown)

There is only one major variable which has been brought up: The exhaust. I have stock manifolds, cross-over pipe, no cat, and stock muffler. More on this later...

Before I went to the track I researched what a stock Delorean would do in the quarter-mile.I went to Tamir's site and found the following sources to give me a good estimate:
I didn't want to trust one source for fear of manipulation of the magazine writers...but they all showed results in the 17-17.9 second/76.5-79mph range....

Road and Track - Dec '81
http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/articles/roadandtrack/rtdec81e1x1.jpg
17.9 seconds/76.5 mph

Car and Driver - Dec '81
http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/articles/caranddriver/cddec81f1x1.jpg
17.0 sec/79 mph

Motor Trend Dec '81
http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/articles/motortrend/mtdec81e1x1.jpg
17.61sec/77.4 mph

Motor Trend April '82
http://www.entermyworld.com/cat/articles/motortrend/mtapr82g1x1.jpg
17.45 secons/77.7 mph

Alright, so now I have something to compare to...so here we go...

First run, in-car camera(wife)
http://www.youtube.com/user/joshjegs?feature=mhee#p/u/3/EYSH1QHELMA
[email protected]
Shifted at around 6000 rpms, stayed in 3rd gear
Second run...
http://www.youtube.com/user/joshjegs?feature=mhee#p/u/2/ymO2iX6Hrbs
[email protected]
Shifted at 5500 rpms, stayed in 3rd gear
Third and final run..
http://www.youtube.com/user/joshjegs?feature=mhee#p/u/1/U0tX6N6yJ-w
[email protected]
Shifted at 6000 rpms, stayed in 3rd gear
At this point I decided my driving skill would not improve the cars performance significantly any further....

So now I am frustrated because I am lining up with stock performance after all of the hard work(ex. 2nd run nearly identical to Road and Track results)to improve it and now I want to figure out why my car is peforming exactly like a stock Delorean....

The camshafts were supposed to add the most HP to my car, so they are the first to research and rule out in a few ways....

-Below is a video of the idle of my car:
http://www.youtube.com/user/joshjegs?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/QGYuTaLD060

Can anyone confirm by audio comparison if the idle matches that of the idle of a car with the DMC CA camshafts?

Does anyone know the camshaft lift for the intake and exhaust for both stock and DMC CA camshafts? I would like to remove a valve cover and mic the intake and exhaust lobes to check lift...

I have close access to a performance shop with a Mustang dyno and can take the car there to check HP figures...but I am guessing they are going to align with stock engine specs based off of tonight's runs....

As I stated, the car starts up great cold, warm, or hot, idles nicely, no hesitation, smooth acceleration....just doesn't appear to have the performance that I believe it should with what was done....

I talked to Danny B at DMC CA, he said he had never heard of any issues with the cams and that everyone he had talked to were happy with the performance increase...he did not have the specs on the stock and peformance cams; I have to wait until Tues for Don to be available to get them...

Danny said that they always have the stage one exhaust on their cars with the camshafts and recommended it....I understand that the stock exhaust would decrease some of the HP potential...but it is hard for me to believe it would restrict nearly all of it...

Anyone have any other ideas or opinions on what parts and where to check?

I'd really appreciate it!

Josh Q

[sdg3205]

That's bizarre.

Are you allowed to pull of the headers and do a run?! That would tell you (and by how much) if the stock exhaust was holding you up.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

That's bizarre.

Are you allowed to pull of the headers and do a run?! That would tell you (and by how much) if the stock exhaust was holding you up.

That would be alot of work and I really don't think the stock exhaust (even if I put the cat back on) is capping all peformance increases.....

i really just want to find the answer.....

If anyone wants any specifics from the runs, I have the time slips...
60 foot times were all in the 2.7 range
1/8 mile- 11.407secs/64.11mph, 11.527secs/61.86mph, and 11.375secs/64.76mph respectively....

[DMCMW Dave]

We had a car in here that was a full stage 2 engine but with stock exhaust (there was a delay on the exhaust at the time and they wanted the car done). It was just about impossible to tell it from stock - maybe a slighly lumpier idle.

The OEM exhaust is so restrictive that the added flow from the head/cam work was negligable in terms of making power. Once we added the header part of the kit it all seems to wake right up.

Sorry, no dyno or drag strip testing on this one.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Ugh...if this is true Dave, it's gonna be a while before I can save up 1500-2000 dollars to realize the 1000 dollars i just spent on the cam and head work.....

"welcome to Delorean ownership"?

[jmettee]

Josh,
The only different between out cars is that I have the Hervey cat-converter & you have a straight pipe....& you have stock muffler & I have a Flowmaster. I know my car woke up with changing the cams only, so there should be a difference. Also, my car dyno'd with 130HP at the wheels before the cams. If we believe the dyno, then I would tend to say that yes, the muffler is the primary restriction.

Like you, I put the cams in 'while I was in there', knowing that in the future, I will upgrade to headers. I still need to dyno my car, but may be a while as my work schedule has me on weekly travel at the current time.

IIRC, the specs I was given by Don were .190" lift on the stock cams & .275" on his. While possible, I would doubt DMC-CA mixed up cams. Before I pulled the valve covers, I'd pull the muffler & take a listen to the exhaust note out of your test pipe. The cammed idle should be obvious without the muffler if it is truely restricting that much power (it should sound VERY lopey without a muffler....like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRsK4qRRnSk)

Lastly, it's hard to hear from the video, but what was your engine speed at launch? On my laptop, sounds like your incar video was just at idle. I know drag racving takes practice & launch is a key parameter & getting good times or bad times.

[jmettee]

Actually, just listened to the incar again....the engine note seems to sound like the performance cams. I recognize the same sound my car has & the stock engine doesn't sound quite as aggressive...there's a bit more of a gurgle/burble in it compared to stock. But again, somewhat hard to hear on a computer.

[mluder]

I'm certainly no expert on this sort of thing but I recall reading somewhere that with the stock engine, cams, etc. JUST by changing over to a high flow muffler you can add 50 hp.

Steve
#4456

[mluder]

Just watched the idle video... Does your oil preasure always run so low at idle? Mine almost pegs at idle and just bounces around up at the top. Of course, under accelleration its topped out.

[sdg3205]

Here's my question:

If you can buy the cams for $600 and get 60 HP gain, bringing the car to 190 bhp and throw on a stage 1 exhaust set up for roughly $2,000 and maybe get another 10 ponies out of that, why spent 5k - 7k on "Stage II" at all? Sounds like you get pretty much the same HP for half the cost.

Anyone?

[Roman Legion]

Not sure why, but I want to see a DeLorean race a Prius.. I had one try and race my Mustang the other day.. Bad choice on their part..

[DeloreanJoshQ]

I didn't want to hurt the transmission and driveline components by reving up and dumping the clutch, so you are right I did an off-idle launch.
However, I don't think dumping the clutch would have done much better with street tires and the current amount of power, I also went around the water box; there was no wheelspin that I noticed off of the line.....

Oil pressure appears to be great at all engine speeds....at the time of the video, the engine had just been run from the track home (45 minute drive); that may a part of it.

I don't understand why upgrading exhaust only nets +10 HP on a stock engine if it's so restrictive......?

[fnzen]

Josh its a sum of everything but the key is air in/ air out, stock exhaust on anything is too restrictive.

I just put the Stage 2 in my car. There is definately a noticable difference in power and I have an automatic. I dont have numbers unfortunately.

Yours does not sound as lopey as mine, it seems muffled. Mine actually sounds and idles like my cammed Harley.

IMO the Stage 2 is still not a 1/4 mile car however it is definately a touring car from 3500 rpms to 6000 rpms.

Tips for for you: DONT BABY THE CAR IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR NUMBERS, DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!

Not shouting just making the point. Remember those numbers that you are comparing are from professional drivers they didnt baby the car.

Ill try to get mine to the track for numbers.

Give me a call I think you still have my number if you have an iphone you can see and hear mine for comparison.

In the meantime
Drive it like you stole it:devil:

Don

[Chris Burns]

Josh,

Just enjoy your car. Be glad you have a running driver. Over time do performance upgrades if you wish, but the main thing is ENJOY YOUR CAR! The thing about getting perfomance out of a Delorean is getting the engine to breathe. It was never ment to be a quarter mile race car. Just a great looking, great driving, gran tourer.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Josh its a sum of everything but the key is air in/ air out, stock exhaust on anything is too restrictive.

I just put the Stage 2 in my car. There is definately a noticable difference in power and I have an automatic. I dont have numbers unfortunately.

Yours does not sound as lopey as mine, it seems muffled. Mine actually sounds and idles like my cammed Harley.

IMO the Stage 2 is still not a 1/4 mile car however it is definately a touring car from 3500 rpms to 6000 rpms.

Tips for for you: DONT BABY THE CAR IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR NUMBERS, DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!

Not shouting just making the point. Remember those numbers that you are comparing are from professional drivers they didnt baby the car.

Ill try to get mine to the track for numbers.

Give me a call I think you still have my number if you have an iphone you can see and hear mine for comparison.

In the meantime
Drive it like you stole it:devil:

Don

Don,
Do you have video/audio of your engine? I would like to hear it.
Also, I would be interested in your help with how to drive the car harder....I only had to shift from first to second and second to third. I shifted at 6000 rpms both times as fast as possible(3rd run). Popping the clutch with street tires would only induce wheelspin or break the drivetrain. I had the pedal down...I've done this with other cars many times before...it may seem like one second is easy to make up from a driver's ability alone but the car has to do most of the work...
If you are ever here in Columbus, you are welcome to show me how it's done :)
Josh Q

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Josh,

Just enjoy your car. Be glad you have a running driver. Over time do performance upgrades if you wish, but the main thing is ENJOY YOUR CAR! The thing about getting perfomance out of a Delorean is getting the engine to breathe. It was never ment to be a quarter mile race car. Just a great looking, great driving, gran tourer.

I understand Bud. And I do enjoy driving the car:) I agree it's not a quarter-mile car, however this is how i can test and measure changes with aftermarket parts.....

[thegovernor9912]

ditch the stock exhaust!


The crossover pipe is incredibly restrictive, its only there so that they would only need one cat converter-an expensive item.

If you aren't looking to spend for a professional exhaust from DMCH, Josh at DPI,or the european one talk to Bill R. The setup he rigged up is the awesomly simple and can easily be fabricated. It may be "redneck" engineering but you can't beat it for the price.

[fnzen]

Josh you know what to do, pop the cluth and letr rip. You dont have enough horsepower yet to spin the rear wheels, from what I understand you need about 300ponies or so, this is because of the weight distribution of the car.

No matter you got to get rid of the stock exhaust.

I pmd you my cell.

Don

[louielouie2000]

I didn't want to hurt the transmission and driveline components by reving up and dumping the clutch, so you are right I did an off-idle launch.
However, I don't think dumping the clutch would have done much better with street tires and the current amount of power, I also went around the water box; there was no wheelspin that I noticed off of the line.....

Oil pressure appears to be great at all engine speeds....at the time of the video, the engine had just been run from the track home (45 minute drive); that may a part of it.

I don't understand why upgrading exhaust only nets +10 HP on a stock engine if it's so restrictive......?

THAT'S why your 1/4 mile times were so poor! You won't hurt your transmission by revving your engine and dumping the clutch for a few 1/4 mile runs. Hell, I drove my DeLorean like that daily for years and tens of thousands of miles, and didn't have any problems arise. I drove mine like I stole it every day. The PRV and Renault 5-speed are both pretty stout. Don't be afraid to drive your DeLorean like it's a real car, because that's exactly what it is: a real car.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Did you do a run without a passenger in the car. Not that it makes a big difference but more weight will always increase your 1/4 mile times.

I also suggest you try a richer mixture. Go open loop or install a wideband unit.

[Fluxat88MPH]

I guess if the muffler is so restrictive that changing the cams that were advertised to gain 60hp and it doesnt. Then they should have been advertised differently. Should have said something like can ad such and such hp IF you buy and change this and add this and do this and so on. I don't believe it is stated that way. So if the claim is an additional 60hp for the cams and then you need an upgraded header exhaust that claims around 30hp. What are the real hp numbers then? 30 for cams and 30 for exhaust to equal the 60hp? Or is the total going to come to 90hp? Would like to know how they come up with their numbers. Is it dynoed with headers and factory exhaust then with performance cams after to see the difference?

[DeloreanJoshQ]

I guess if the muffler is so restrictive that changing the cams that were advertised to gain 60hp and it doesnt. Then they should have been advertised differently. Should have said something like can ad such and such hp IF you buy and change this and add this and do this and so on. I don't believe it is stated that way. So if the claim is an additional 60hp for the cams and then you need an upgraded header exhaust that claims around 30hp. What are the real hp numbers then? 30 for cams and 30 for exhaust to equal the 60hp? Or is the total going to come to 90hp? Would like to know how they come up with their numbers. Is it dynoed with headers and factory exhaust then with performance cams after to see the difference?

I will dyno the car with the cams and stock exhaust minus the cat converter.
Justin M has the same cams and exhaust but with Flowmaster muffler and performance cat...hopefully he will be able to dyno his setup. I think the only other difference between our engines is the valve springs and headwork (port/polish/performance valve job)....but that may not be a factor....

I will also get ahold of stock Delorean dyno results on the same Mustang dyno from another Delorean owner and post them here as well....

When I can afford to upgrade the exhaust I will dyno it again and post the results.

Then, just to make the doubters happy, I'll rev up the engine to 6000 and pop the clutch at the track to see the difference and post the videos here....


Josh Q

[DeloreanJoshQ]

VIN 3307 Dynoed today, below are videos(at the bottom of this post), charts, and photos:

‎141HP @ just over 6,000 RPMs, 140TQ @ just over 3,000 RPMs....at the rear wheels using a Mustang brand dynometer.

This was accomplished by adding performance DMC CA(Don Steger) camshafts, ported/polished heads, cold air/K&N air intake, Pertronix ignition coil, and Josh Bengston's DPI Spec 1 Stainless Steel Exhaust upgrade....

If any of you are good with K-Jet, take a look at the air/fuel ratio chart and tell me if any adjustments can be done or not...

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306304_10150839103200696_671145695_21029469_136599 4440_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/300846_10150839102905696_671145695_21029468_197655 2228_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/297474_10150839103370696_671145695_21029471_624286 026_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/320083_10150839104285696_671145695_21029475_155406 1158_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/316485_10150839393845696_671145695_21031493_142694 7292_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/318548_10150839394040696_671145695_21031496_182813 8852_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297487_10150839394485696_671145695_21031502_105979 6181_n.jpg

Videos:

http://youtu.be/5AhFISKw57E

http://youtu.be/0gcvd8MzF9Q

[Bitsyncmaster]

What makes your AFR drop suddenly above 3000 RPM? Not that it's a bad thing because low 12s will boost your power.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

What makes your AFR drop suddenly above 3000 RPM? Not that it's a bad thing because low 12s will boost your power.

I don't know Dave. What do you think would be the cause? Would you recommend adjusting the CO mixture or any other limited adjustments K-Jet has to improve performance? I recall you had a performance/economy setup?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I would guess your mixture is not adjusted (centered). It looks like it holds where it should (your scale was not set to show 14.7) at lower RPM. I would expect your AFR to start going lean at maximum RPM.

But you may be happy with how it runs now unless your cruse RPM gets into that rich mode. Then you would not get very good MPG.

Do you have a CAT installed? Did they use a tailpipe wideband to read the AFR?

[DeloreanJoshQ]

I would guess your mixture is not adjusted (centered). It looks like it holds where it should (your scale was not set to show 14.7) at lower RPM. I would expect your AFR to start going lean at maximum RPM.

But you may be happy with how it runs now unless your cruse RPM gets into that rich mode. Then you would not get very good MPG.

Do you have a CAT installed? Did they use a tailpipe wideband to read the AFR?

The DPI exhaust I have has dual cats. They did use a single tailpipe wideband to read the AFR. I have achieved as high as 28-30 on the highway believe it or not if I behave myself.

Are you saying there is opportunity to improve performance by adjusting the mixture screw?

[Bitsyncmaster]

The DPI exhaust I have has dual cats. They did use a single tailpipe wideband to read the AFR. I have achieved as high as 28-30 on the highway believe it or not if I behave myself.

Are you saying there is opportunity to improve performance by adjusting the mixture screw?

You really don't know the best AFR until you adjust it on the dyno. Normally 12 to 13 gives best power.

Reading AFR with a CAT is not the best. But maybe the dyno guy has compensated the readings running with a CAT.

Yes, I believe our standard gear cars can get 30 MPG if properly tuned and you are gentle on the accelerator.

[jmettee]

My (mostly) stock dyno looked essentially the same with regard to AFR. I have a good CAT & the sniffer was put in the tailpipe (downstream of CAT).

5740

[Bitsyncmaster]

Just thought of the reason. Do you run wide open throttle on the dyno? That would explain the sudden AFR change when the WOT switch is activated.

[jmettee]

Yes, for mine they run the car up to get it into 4th gear (closest to 1:1 trans ratio) & then go full throttle. Obviously you can't really start at idle in 4th gear by smashing the gas, so the dyno run starts somewhere around 2000-3000 RPM.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Yes, for mine they run the car up to get it into 4th gear (closest to 1:1 trans ratio) & then go full throttle. Obviously you can't really start at idle in 4th gear by smashing the gas, so the dyno run starts somewhere around 2000-3000 RPM.

+1


That explains the sudden surge....so how exactly does the WOT switch add more fuel to the engine?

[DeloreanJoshQ]

Yes, for mine they run the car up to get it into 4th gear (closest to 1:1 trans ratio) & then go full throttle. Obviously you can't really start at idle in 4th gear by smashing the gas, so the dyno run starts somewhere around 2000-3000 RPM.

+1


That explains the sudden surge....so how exactly does the WOT switch add more fuel to the engine since it's mechanical injection?

[Bitsyncmaster]

+1


That explains the sudden surge....so how exactly does the WOT switch add more fuel to the engine since it's mechanical injection?

It forces the FV to run at 60% (I think) duty cycle. So you do have some adjustment of the mixture screw where you can change that AFR with the WOT actuated. But you would be limited to not change it more that the lambda could handle the mixture in normal closed loop.

Or you could do what I did and not use the WOT switch but run a wideband closed loop always. I can adjust my AFR with the wideband.

[DeloreanJoshQ]

It forces the FV to run at 60% (I think) duty cycle. So you do have some adjustment of the mixture screw where you can change that AFR with the WOT actuated. But you would be limited to not change it more that the lambda could handle the mixture in normal closed loop.

Or you could do what I did and not use the WOT switch but run a wideband closed loop always. I can adjust my AFR with the wideband.

Is there how-to post for this? Is this mod worth it?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Is there how-to post for this? Is this mod worth it?

I had it documented in the old forum. But since you seem to be running good with the WOT I don't think you need to mess with the wideband. The wideband would only help if your not at WOT.