EFI Conversion Questions.

[DMCVegas]

Now that I'm finally back in Vegas, I'm anticipating on wrenching on my car to get her back on the road, starting either this winter or next spring. The bad news is the price of K-Jetronic parts. Between the basic list of major parts I need, along with the tools I need for K-Jet, and a buffer for miscellaneous supplies and items I may have missed, I'm looking at around $3,000 to repair the stock fuel injection system.

So I'd like to look into an EFI conversion. Not just as potentially a cheaper alternative, but while I am comfortable with K-Jet, I've had too many problems with it and ethanol, and I'm admittedly a bit concerned with the pool of available replacement parts. Now I don't anticipate that this would be a complete "plug & play" conversion that doesn't require work. Reading the posts I understand about the work put in for fabrication, and most of all testing. I also am not in any hurry here to get the system running. But with that, I have some questions that I've not seen answered in the sticky threads, or the others I've browsed.

1. Is there any turn-key kit that is available yet?
I know that DPI has a conversion service, but it's $6K, and I'd have to ship the car off. I'd rather do this myself for both the savings, as well as the education from a hands-on experience. Not that I'm complaining, since I understand it would damn near be the same cost to have K-Jet repaired at a service center. But I like to DIY things.

2. What is the average cost of an EFI Conversion?
I have a target of $3K for K-Jet. Would EFI come in under that?

3. Which would be the preferred engine to perform an EFI Conversion on?
I would assume that the 3.0L PRV would be easier given that the manifold already has bungs for the injectors, and requires less fabrication. But am I wrong? Also, is there any reason that the 3.0 wouldn't be compatible with aftermarket exhausts like DPI's?

4. If no full kit is available, is there at least a complete list of what automotive parts are needed for the conversion?
Both parts, numbers, and available sources.

5. Does anyone who has an EFI conversion have tailpipe emissions readings?
I see the fuel maps and whatnot for tuning, but what I'm curious about is how clean the engines run since I would still be subject to emissions testing. Accordingly of course, I need to ensure the Evaporative emissions system is still in place, and I'll be running dual catalytic converters. But what about NOx and CO2 readings? Does anyone have any?

I've always liked K-Jet because I understood it, but I feel that it's time to finally retire the system and move on to something more modern, and more reliable since it doesn't have as many failure points. If I can move on, I sure as hell will.

Big thank you in advance to everyone.

[opethmike]

I'll answer what I can, but it's been 5 years since I did my conversion, so I'm a little rusty on some of the setup.

1. Outside of DPI's, there is nothing I am aware of. Most of us on here have used Megasquirt. It can be as easy or as difficult as you'd like depending on whether you get a pre-assembled ECU or not.

2. I spent approximately $2,000 on my conversion, and that was a bit on the high side since I purchased an assembled ECU, and an EFI ready Renault manifold from Martin Gutkowski.

3. I have no experience with the 3.0, but since everything is pretty much there already, I'm sure the setup would be a bit quicker. But the hardware isn't really the long part of the job; that would be the wiring and the tuning. The aftermarket exhausts will fit; people have done it.

4. Somewhere on this site I have a PDF detailing how I did my conversion that contains most of that information. You'll get to know diyautotune.com very well.

5. Sorry, I don't have a sniffer read out, so I can't help with this one.

[DMCVegas]

All good information to know. Thank you indeed.

There are a few questions I still have about the Z7X-711 & 715 3.0L engines. Little things like if the injector ports could handle alternative injectors, etc. I'm not too worried about emissions since unlike a static flow rate on a CIS injector or jet, I can manipulate the duty cycles of the electronic injectors.

I found your write-up and I'm still going over it. Very much appreciated! But let me ask you an honest question: After 5 years, what is your impression of your EFI system? Not just how much tinkering has it required of you, but how reliable has it been? Are you still happy with the conversion?

[opethmike]

All good information to know. Thank you indeed.

There are a few questions I still have about the Z7X-711 & 715 3.0L engines. Little things like if the injector ports could handle alternative injectors, etc. I'm not too worried about emissions since unlike a static flow rate on a CIS injector or jet, I can manipulate the duty cycles of the electronic injectors.

I found your write-up and I'm still going over it. Very much appreciated! But let me ask you an honest question: After 5 years, what is your impression of your EFI system? Not just how much tinkering has it required of you, but how reliable has it been? Are you still happy with the conversion?

Quite happy. Other than taking a while to get the tune right the first year I had it, I've had literally zero issues with it.

[dn010]

I too am quite happy with my conversion and I'd never go back to stock. I even sold my original engine that I was saving "just in case" I wanted to go back. I turn the key and go, the only issue I have is a slight stumble right when I start the engine cold, for about 10 seconds - fixable but I've just been too lazy to deal with it. Other than that, I am very comfortable with EFI, I am not concerned about breaking down and I don't even carry my laptop with me like I used to when I first did the conversion. As a bonus, there are far less points for fuel leaks, far more room, and many possibilities when it comes to tuning. You are able to pick and choose between different injectors [as long as they're EV1 or EV6], you're not limited to stock.

The 3.0 would be an easy conversion, you swap the lower crankcase and drop it in. For me, I had a 2.8 B280F from a Volvo 780 sitting so my conversion was very cheap, only the cost of the ECU, Ford EDIS, LC-2 and some random parts like a TPS, upgraded injectors and a MAF [MAF isn't needed if you don't want to base your fueling off of an airflow sensor, I did and it saved me from having to tune a fuel table]. If you're not able to fabricate parts then you're looking at more cost (Crank sensor brackets, I made a custom ECU tray to replace the stock ECU tray behind the driver seat, etc.) My car has much more power compared to the prior engine. It runs much smoother than the odd-fire original engine. While there might not be hundreds here, there are quite a few of us who can help you through a conversion. I do have a write-up and wiring diagram created, but it's on my laptop and hasn't been posted to the forum yet - I'll look into this in the next few days if you're interested in it.

I cannot comment on cost, I am pretty sure for me it was under $1000 but again, I had almost everything I needed. I can provide a list of what sensors or parts I used along with numbers and where you can get them, as Mike said - DIY was a big shopping experience, but also eBay was a source of some parts. I too do not have exhaust readings, all I have is what the ECU provides me as far as readings from the O2 sensor.

[opethmike]

So, in short - you won't regret it! And if something does go wrong, it is SO much easier to diagnose. Just hook up your laptop, open your tuning program, and you'll see right away which sensor isn't working.

[FABombjoy]

A few notes having completed a conversion last Sunday:

On a stock motor, a fuel-only conversion using Megasquirt would be fairly easy and inexpensive, even with all brand new parts. Possibly a one day project if everything is in good shape.

Fuel only needs:
From DIYautotune:
-ECU: Megasquirt 2 is sufficient for fuel only
-Wiring harness
-Coolant temp sensor
-Air temp sensor
-Idle air valve (DIY sells a stepper motor style IAC valve kit with fittings but any MS compatible valve works. Most valves are)

From elsewhere:
-Stock narrowband sensor is fine but a wideband will make tuning much easier
-Injectors and connectors - any 24lb takeoffs will work. See my thread RE "EV12" injectors for a great albeit slightly less easy option
-Fuel rails - these come undrilled and you'd need the proper bit
-Fuel hose and adapters. IMHO this should all be Eaton/Aeroquip or comparable and not "go to Summit, tick fuel hose, and sort by cheapest".
--Unless you've worked with AN hose before you'll need appropriate tools
-Various bits of metal for bracketry

Things I've not really seen addressed in the writeups but aren't complex:
-PCV
-Fuel vapor canister
You will need to remove the cold start tube for the fuel rails to fit. Do not remove these systems in the name of simplicity. Kjet runs the both in a "fixed orifice" arrangement which you can preserve for simplicity
I shortened my cold start tube and installed a barbed fitting, then used emissions hose and vacuum T's to create an analog to stock.


Fuel with spark control:
-Same as above but with the distributor weights locked and the distributor body advanced. MS then electrically retards timing and you can program the ignition maps.


Intentionally Added Complexity:
My setup runs Megasquirt 3 with the "Extended" add on board (aka MS3X). It includes a variety of parts custom built or sourced from other DMC folks. On an odd-fire B28F I am running fully sequential injection and fully programmable ignition. I'm also running an intercooled turbo with water injection control.

-Crankshaft position sensor, with pickup ring welded on to factory crank pulley.
-Camshaft position sensor - the stock VR trigger for the Bosch module is gone and a homebrewed "50/50" pickup is installed.
The combination of these two tells Megasquirt where the crank is with some precision and which "phase" the oddfire motor is in so it can run in full sequential mode.
-External MAP sensor. MS2 and MS3 have built-in, but this lets me mount the MAP sensor in the engine bay and have a little more precision.
-Adjustable PCV valve - allows for better PCV than the stock orifice
-Throttle position sensor - better tip-in enrichment tuning and a host of other things that can be triggered based on throttle angle

Other stuff the 3X is doing:
-AC control - call for AC is routed through megasquirt. Fans will not kick on if the engine is off, AC is shut down at high loads.
-Fan control - MS controls cooling fan on/off. Will eventually add a vehicle speed sensor so fans can be disabled entirely at highway speeds.
-Boost control - Not yet but once I have a base tune ready I will add on programmable and per-gear boost control
-Knock sensor - because data. Not honestly sure how useful this will be. Resonant knock frequency is about 6.1Khz but an untuned knock strategy will false constantly. On a non-turbo motor I doubt that a knock sensor is useful in the slightest.


Tuning:
I am transitioning from theory to practice. I'm going to road tune today, tomorrow, and then go on a 600 mile trip on Friday. Until then I claim ignorance.

[opethmike]

Well aren't we just Mr. Fancy-pants?

I bet you have a mustache!

[SamHill]

fairly easy

53676

53677

[dn010]

Regarding IAC above - that isn't entirely true. If my memory is fine, you can do a mod to the main board to run a PWM idle motor, such as the stock DeLorean idle speed motor, for both MS2 & MS3. If you get MS3X, which I too have, you don't need any modifications and you can run PWM along with the above mentioned AC and fan control (which is very nice to have by the way!). I am running the stock idle speed motor from the Volvo Bertone, the same one will work in place of the stock D's so if I were to plug it in, it will run just fine once it is properly "tuned".

PCV is "as is" from the Bertone and the 780 also uses the exact same carbon canister so that also remains the same.

Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.

[opethmike]

I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.

[FABombjoy]

I bet you have a mustache!
I cannot grow a mustache. It brings great shame to my family.


53676
Haha, fair enough.

My philosophy: Difficulty describes things that are complicated and things that are laborious.

A fuel-only install is mostly laborious. It's been done many times so there aren't very many mysterious to solve. A lot of problems can be solved with money, including the entire tuning process. It works with the factory K-jet manifold and throttle. You just gut the meter unit and plug holes.

It does help to have an understanding of how EFI works and the role that each component plays. There are some good books on the subject. If you look at the entire system as a black box with wires going everywhere its intimidating AF.

If you gave me a carburetor I couldn't tell you what end is the kazasperator and where you connect the chokulon.

[dn010]

If you gave me a carburetor I couldn't tell you what end is the kazasperator and where you connect the chokulon.

:hysterical:
That made me laugh. I'm fortunate enough to have started with carburetors but of course none of them on the D.

[FABombjoy]

Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.
For me if I put another motor in it needs to be properly built for boost and keeping the B28F keeps me from chasing down that rabbit hole. They're less shaky if you set the idle at the Volvo spec 900 RPM :D

TBH if this motor comes out there is a low probability of another PRV engine going back in unless the price is really, really right.

There hasn't been much talk about fully controlled odd fire motors, just wanted to post my experience.


I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.
During the first start I have no trouble getting the stepper to work and affect immediate changes when the # of steps was altered. Bench testing proved to me that there are innumerable ways to incorrectly drive the stepper. Time will tell.

I could totally see adapting the stock valve and using it, it would be easy to do and you could keep a similar mounting point. I purchased my MS parts in a lot that had the stepper unit, so I sold my DMC idle valve instead.

[dn010]

For me if I put another motor in it needs to be properly built for boost

The B280F has cross bolted mains to help with that. :yesss:

All joking around aside, it is up to what Robert can/can't do or what he does/doesn't decide. A good point is, there are many, many options to choose from.

[FABombjoy]

I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.
Just to champion the stepper IAC cause again... because everybody needs to believe in something... tonight I started the tuning process and decided to get fancy idle control going.

I was able to find the IAC stepper lower & upper limits and had closed loop idle control running in about 4 minutes. BOOYAH!

[DMCVegas]

First off, I cannot thank everyone enough for the responses. You've no idea how much they are appreciated!


Quite happy. Other than taking a while to get the tune right the first year I had it, I've had literally zero issues with it.

That's one of the big things I was curious about. I've always been a big booster of K-Jet, but the last two years my car was on the road I started having lots of trouble with it when I reflect upon it. Just eating up the O-rings in the CPR, the diaphragm in the Accumulator, clogging/deteriorating injectors, and the fuel pump boot that just turned to mush. I've no idea if DMCH's all-in-one fuel pump would work with EFI given it's much higher pressures, but I definitely want to eliminate as much rubber and steel from the system as possible. I don't mind K-Jetronic, and it worked great for a long time. But as soon as I started to see Ethanol blends is when I started to have problems. We had MTBE before that with no issues.

Still yet though, seeing the lack of complaints popping up in the support threads here was something that really stood out to me.



The 3.0 would be an easy conversion, you swap the lower crankcase and drop it in. For me, I had a 2.8 B280F from a Volvo 780 sitting so my conversion was very cheap, only the cost of the ECU, Ford EDIS, LC-2 and some random parts like a TPS, upgraded injectors and a MAF [MAF isn't needed if you don't want to base your fueling off of an airflow sensor, I did and it saved me from having to tune a fuel table]. If you're not able to fabricate parts then you're looking at more cost (Crank sensor brackets, I made a custom ECU tray to replace the stock ECU tray behind the driver seat, etc.) My car has much more power compared to the prior engine. It runs much smoother than the odd-fire original engine. While there might not be hundreds here, there are quite a few of us who can help you through a conversion. I do have a write-up and wiring diagram created, but it's on my laptop and hasn't been posted to the forum yet - I'll look into this in the next few days if you're interested in it.

Ease of installation is what I'm shooting for. I'd rather spend more time troubleshooting and tuning that constantly fabricating. The big starting question of course if I opt for the 3.0L is where can I get a trigger ring at? Does someone already sell them? I do see that DPI sells an injector & fuel rail kit for the K-Jet heads.



Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.

Again, the ease of simplicity is what I'm going for. I suppose that I do lose a bit of performance with even-fire given that there are no performance cams for those engines. But the higher compression, displacement, & better flowing heads should make up for that. If I wanted high performance, I'd look to turbos or an outright swap. For now a reliable NA engine suits me just fine.

When going for an even-fire swap, which would be more preferable? The 2.8L B280F from the Volvo 780, or the 3.0L Z7X-711/Z7X-715 from the Premier/Monaco? Even better question, has anyone successfully grafted the serpentine belt over to the DeLorean's accessories?

As of right now, I've got 2 complete PRVs, both from DeLoreans. One with a blown head gasket, and the other should be fine. Although it has a borked exhaust manifold stud that was drilled out resulting in a mangled hole from some past mechanic (so I doubt it'll ever work with a stock exhaust again). 1 complete K-Jet setup, a second setup only missing a WUR, 6 spare CIS Injectors, and 1 or two spare dummy bearing kits. Then of course whatever other leftover parts I have remaining after the swap.



Just to champion the stepper IAC cause again... because everybody needs to believe in something... tonight I started the tuning process and decided to get fancy idle control going.

I was able to find the IAC stepper lower & upper limits and had closed loop idle control running in about 4 minutes. BOOYAH!

And that's the kind of results I like to hear about, as well as the more advanced options you have as well. For the EFI conversion, I'd like to give myself about a year to get the actual conversion in place and completed while restoring the rest of the car and balancing work & school.

[dn010]

There are some conversions that still use the serpentine belt so that shouldn't be an issue. Also, DPI can grind the even-fire cams so there are "performance" options [http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14503-Even-Fire-Performance-Camshafts&highlight=even-fire].

I'm sure there are a few here also willing to help you out with the trigger ring as far as welding it on - shouldn't be a problem and they're available from DIYautotune or other places like eBay.

If I had a choice, I'd have gone with the 3.0 however I had the 2.8 sitting here so it was a no brainer. The two things I do not know about is if the 3.0 has cross bolted mains and if it has the oil cooler on. The mains aren't a big deal and I'm not sure if the oil cooler is either but I kept it installed when I swapped to my car. I will put a turbo on this engine IF I don't decide to swap to something else later on.

Lastly, don't stress about the fuel pump. Whether it is stock or DMCH all-in-one, EFI requires much less pressure than K-Jet.


EDIT: I forgot to add, as far as how well the heads flow - I don't know about the 3.0 but the 2.8 really needs to have the exhaust ports opened up. You can run the way it is but if you open up the ports it is a difference, at least I noticed a difference anyway.


First off, I cannot thank everyone enough for the responses. You've no idea how much they are appreciated!



That's one of the big things I was curious about. I've always been a big booster of K-Jet, but the last two years my car was on the road I started having lots of trouble with it when I reflect upon it. Just eating up the O-rings in the CPR, the diaphragm in the Accumulator, clogging/deteriorating injectors, and the fuel pump boot that just turned to mush. I've no idea if DMCH's all-in-one fuel pump would work with EFI given it's much higher pressures, but I definitely want to eliminate as much rubber and steel from the system as possible. I don't mind K-Jetronic, and it worked great for a long time. But as soon as I started to see Ethanol blends is when I started to have problems. We had MTBE before that with no issues.

Still yet though, seeing the lack of complaints popping up in the support threads here was something that really stood out to me.




Ease of installation is what I'm shooting for. I'd rather spend more time troubleshooting and tuning that constantly fabricating. The big starting question of course if I opt for the 3.0L is where can I get a trigger ring at? Does someone already sell them? I do see that DPI sells an injector & fuel rail kit for the K-Jet heads.




Again, the ease of simplicity is what I'm going for. I suppose that I do lose a bit of performance with even-fire given that there are no performance cams for those engines. But the higher compression, displacement, & better flowing heads should make up for that. If I wanted high performance, I'd look to turbos or an outright swap. For now a reliable NA engine suits me just fine.

When going for an even-fire swap, which would be more preferable? The 2.8L B280F from the Volvo 780, or the 3.0L Z7X-711/Z7X-715 from the Premier/Monaco? Even better question, has anyone successfully grafted the serpentine belt over to the DeLorean's accessories?

As of right now, I've got 2 complete PRVs, both from DeLoreans. One with a blown head gasket, and the other should be fine. Although it has a borked exhaust manifold stud that was drilled out resulting in a mangled hole from some past mechanic (so I doubt it'll ever work with a stock exhaust again). 1 complete K-Jet setup, a second setup only missing a WUR, 6 spare CIS Injectors, and 1 or two spare dummy bearing kits. Then of course whatever other leftover parts I have remaining after the swap.




And that's the kind of results I like to hear about, as well as the more advanced options you have as well. For the EFI conversion, I'd like to give myself about a year to get the actual conversion in place and completed while restoring the rest of the car and balancing work & school.

[Josh]

I can make a trigger wheel for a 3.0 if you go that route. I require the crank pulley, I weld on the trigger ring, and make a mount for the crank position sensor. The sensor is to be used in conjunction with EDIS

[Spittybug]

Now that I'm finally back in Vegas, I'm anticipating on wrenching on my car to get her back on the road, starting either this winter or next spring. The bad news is the price of K-Jetronic parts. Between the basic list of major parts I need, along with the tools I need for K-Jet, and a buffer for miscellaneous supplies and items I may have missed, I'm looking at around $3,000 to repair the stock fuel injection system.

So I'd like to look into an EFI conversion. Not just as potentially a cheaper alternative, but while I am comfortable with K-Jet, I've had too many problems with it and ethanol, and I'm admittedly a bit concerned with the pool of available replacement parts. Now I don't anticipate that this would be a complete "plug & play" conversion that doesn't require work. Reading the posts I understand about the work put in for fabrication, and most of all testing. I also am not in any hurry here to get the system running. But with that, I have some questions that I've not seen answered in the sticky threads, or the others I've browsed.

1. Is there any turn-key kit that is available yet?
I know that DPI has a conversion service, but it's $6K, and I'd have to ship the car off. I'd rather do this myself for both the savings, as well as the education from a hands-on experience. Not that I'm complaining, since I understand it would damn near be the same cost to have K-Jet repaired at a service center. But I like to DIY things.

2. What is the average cost of an EFI Conversion?
I have a target of $3K for K-Jet. Would EFI come in under that?

3. Which would be the preferred engine to perform an EFI Conversion on?
I would assume that the 3.0L PRV would be easier given that the manifold already has bungs for the injectors, and requires less fabrication. But am I wrong? Also, is there any reason that the 3.0 wouldn't be compatible with aftermarket exhausts like DPI's?

4. If no full kit is available, is there at least a complete list of what automotive parts are needed for the conversion?
Both parts, numbers, and available sources.

5. Does anyone who has an EFI conversion have tailpipe emissions readings?
I see the fuel maps and whatnot for tuning, but what I'm curious about is how clean the engines run since I would still be subject to emissions testing. Accordingly of course, I need to ensure the Evaporative emissions system is still in place, and I'll be running dual catalytic converters. But what about NOx and CO2 readings? Does anyone have any?

I've always liked K-Jet because I understood it, but I feel that it's time to finally retire the system and move on to something more modern, and more reliable since it doesn't have as many failure points. If I can move on, I sure as hell will.

Big thank you in advance to everyone.


Did you look at the stickies?????? Lots of your questions answered.

[Lough Shore Man]

This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s

[dn010]

This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s

This is the European version of the B280F engine I am using. The European B280E has more power, I believe due to higher flowing heads, different cams and also higher compression. The US version is different because of emissions from what I understand.

[DMCVegas]

Did you look at the stickies?????? Lots of your questions answered.

Indeed I did. What I was looking for in some cases were specific parts numbers and a complete list of them. I also wanted to know more about the long-term results of EFI conversions. The experiences with the it from both reliability, as well as if there was to be any sort of perpetual tinkering involved. To which it doesn't sound like there is any, because that was a big concern for me. It is a bit intimidating still, but not because of the hardware. I'm not worried about wiring up the engine, but more with the choosing of Megasquirt products and which to choose as well as the tuning of the engine. But just with the answers asked so far, they have taken a decent amount of uncertainty out of the process. Yes the stickies have indeed helped a great deal with understanding both components, as well as the common problems that can arise with tuning. From a shared ground to securing the TPS to stop inaccurate variations in reporting data. Even with all of this, I'm still more comfortable with my understanding of EFI than I am a carburetor.

Make no mistake though. While I will be asking for help, I'm not going to rely upon other people doing all the work for me. I.e. asking others for answers when they may be already answered in documented materials. Especially just asking what to do next instead of attempting to follow the instructions. Having said that, believe me that I'm grateful for all info and advice given now, and in the future.

To tell the truth the final straw came last week when I took my other car in for an oil change to an independent garage. I spoke with the mechanics about working on a DeLorean, and they said they'd have no problem doing anything on the car, except for working on the fuel injection system. The guy said they routinely turn away Volvos and any other cars that use K-Jetronic because of the ever increasing difficulty of tuning the systems, and the return rates from customers. Brake work, A/C retrofits, electrical troubleshooting, engine work, nothing was off limits for the DeLorean except for the stock fuel system. There *might* be a couple of exotic shops in town that will touch it, but the willingness to support CIS is waning. That was when I knew it was time for a change.



This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s

Now that is one of the videos I've been looking for; hearing how much quieter the PRV runs without the screams of the damned courtesy of K-Jet. Given that I'm stateside, I'd probably opt for Megasquirt instead because of the support for it. But it's quite reassuring to see how well engines and mechanics take to aftermarket EFI.

[dn010]

If you can afford it, spring for the MS3X. If all else fails, you can no undoubtedly get your money back from reselling it. I can tell you, even when my tune was at its worst, even when I had some made up 'lets start here' tables, I could STILL drive the car. I am running EDIS with megasquirt. The great thing about it is if anything fails, the MS ECU is smart enough to get you home. Even EDIS has a limp mode if you lose your crank sensor. Get some clogged jets with a carb? No go. With EFI you won't be stranded. You won't be frustrated in the end. If my TPS goes out, MS will base off of the other operational sensors (I will even disconnect my TPS tomorrow to see what happens for you!)

To be honest, my biggest problem getting my tune was entering the injector info, I ended up buying a set of graduated cylinders in order to determine my injector parameters! I could drive the car but at low RPMs I would get horrible misfiring. After fixing the injector info and adjusting my timing, smooth sailing since.

It is too bad you weren't located closer. This was the most exciting thing I've done to my D, I'd love to do it again!

[DMCMW Dave]

To tell the truth the final straw came last week when I took my other car in for an oil change to an independent garage. I spoke with the mechanics about working on a DeLorean, and they said they'd have no problem doing anything on the car, except for working on the fuel injection system. The guy said they routinely turn away Volvos and any other cars that use K-Jetronic because of the ever increasing difficulty of tuning the systems, and the return rates from customers.

.

I suspect that if you asked the same guys if they'd work on an aftermarket, home-engineered/installed, undocumented EFI system, they would also have turned you away. Whether or not it was a DeLorean.

[DMCVegas]

I suspect that if you asked the same guys if they'd work on an aftermarket, home-engineered/installed, undocumented EFI system, they would also have turned you away. Whether or not it was a DeLorean.

You're absolutely correct. I even suspect that if I were to bring such a system to your garage and requested for you to work on it, you too would decline. And that's ok.

I'm quite comfortable with K-Jetronic itself. I understand the operating theory of the system. I know how the LAMBDA system interacts with it for fine-tuning emissions. How the Idle Speed ECU and motor are crucial to cold starts. I know how to troubleshoot the system for various symptoms. I know how to use the various tools to check for leaks, check for spray patterns, ensure rest pressures, clean nozzles, and verify flow rates to balance the distributor. I also understand how to tune the system. Not that nonsense about using dwell, but actually setting the static engine temps and high-idle RPM for setting the actual CO as per the Workshop Manual. Something I could even do with an integrated LC-2 unit utilizing a wideband O2 sensor.

It isn't that I can't get K-Jet running, or that I want something that I *hope* I can more easily farm out to a mechanic to deal with. Because the responsibility will be all mine. I have concerns about the longevity of K-Jetronic. The first thing is the skyrocketing prices for K-Jetronic parts. Yes, I know, inflation affects us all. But I've seen the prices for K-Jet parts go from about $1,200 over the years to now almost $2,500. Again, not including the tools I need and misc. consumables which will shoot the price up over $3K for me. Now I'm not trying to get cheap. If I need to spend the money, I'm going to spend the money. But damn. How much is this going to keep costing me?

I also do not know about the longevity of our parts supply for the car. I've heard rumors in the past about the quality of replacement parts (especially when people claim they can "clean" or "refurbish" injectors with sonic cleaners), and concerns about the outright availability of parts in the future. Which if they do become more scarce, I can only imagine prices going even higher. While owning my car, only DeLorean mechanics have ever worked on it. Yet I still have had problems with components failing. From injectors randomly going bad, to rubber rotting. Specifically fuel-related ones because of Ethanol. Things I'm not experiencing on other EFI cars I own. Apples to Oranges comparison? You bet. But still, I'm not seeing improvements to K-Jet to prevent these kinds of problems. Nor are others who have completed this conversion. Which is also key. The success stories aren't just with DeLoreans, but all many cars as wells.

Will this affect the resale value of my car? Yep. Most likely in a negative way since there is no comfort of taking the car to any garage to fix. Although with standardized equipment used in this conversion at least, there are probably some tuning shops that could help. Although to be fair I'm not counting on them, nor anyone else. I'm alone out here without any local garages to support me. I know this going into this project. If it doesn't work out, well, I can always revert back to K-Jet. But hey, I'm going to give it a chance. What have I got to loose?

[NckT]

I must be an odd-ball as I love K-Jet and find it easy to fix.

I've never heard it 'scream' as noted. It does have a high pitched sound from the injectors but this is not overheard from the running engine sound.

For fixing K jet all you need is a fuel pressure gauge. Modern 'mechanics' probably don't like it due to lack of fault code reader diagnostics or that is not a basic bolt on carburettor that would have familiarity.

For all that decide to change to efi or carbs (which is up to the owner of course); I hope that the original k jet items are not thrown, away but at least passed to owners clubs/ dealers for bulk reconditioning to give better availability for those who want to retain k-jet

[FABombjoy]

I just completed a 500+ mile maiden voyage on MS3X. I Roughed in (that's roughed with a capital R) a fuel map before leaving and abused autotune and the highway and through some squirrly northern MI roads to further trim the fat.

The ability to just immediately target and make changes was really something. There's nothing new about any of this, but it's new to me, and certainly more capable than even what the UTCIS was able to do for my unique setup.

For example, my wife and I would be cruising down the highway at 75-80. I'd glance over and see AFRs of high 13's.

"Honey, can you open my laptop, find the target AFR cells we're floating around and set them and all the cells to the left to 14.5, and turn on autotune for a minute?"
"Sure"
*tapity tap tap*
1/4 mile later, cruising AFRs are now 14.5:1
"Ok, you can close the laptop now, thanks a bunch"

or

"The motor is oscillating right here. Are any of the gauges other than RPM and AFR swinging back and forth?"
"nope"
Ok, can you open VE table and see if the target is spinning around a cell that doesn't seem to fit in with it's neighbors?"
"Yes, there's a number here that a lot lower than the surrounding ones"
"Ok, select the whole block it's spinning in and hit the slash key"
*oscillation disappears*
"Awesome, thanks. What's for lunch?"

[dn010]

I've never had any positive experiences with AutoTune, it always changed the numbers the wrong way and made things much worse for my tune. In my opinion, it wasn't worth the extra $.

[FABombjoy]

I've heard that sentiment before but I have no complaints. I'm sure the algorithms are under continuous improvement as well. It definitely made things easier with an inexperienced copilot! I just set up sensible filters along with progressively stepping down the cell change resistance to progressively fine-tune during the weekend.

The final map will probably be hand tailored but it was invaluable for roughing in a driveable VE map in short order.

[dn010]

I'm curious - what are you using for a camshaft trigger / timing? I've wondered but never asked.

[FABombjoy]

-Removed the impulse coil / advance assembly.
-Enlarged the hole where the advance canister mounted (to fit the sensor)
-Use a 55505 tooth sensor for pickup, mounted to a 2-piece distributor body adapter made from aluminum stock.
-Formed and attached a metal 50/50 single tooth to the original reluctor (cant really see it in the attached pic).

I'll admit to abusing JB weld to make this work :D Now that I know its functional I'll probably pick up a spare reluctor and have a part properly welded together.

Being attached to the rear of the distributor, the sensor can be easily changed if necessary. I used the same 55505 on the crank wheel as well and keep a spare in the glovebox.

The advance spring & weights are maintained to ensure a full range of timing without any phase/crossfiring concerns.

53940

[dn010]

Awesome, thank you - that is good to know. Since I don't have a distributor, it looks like I'd have to put some sort of wheel on the end of a camshaft.

[Josh]

Awesome, thank you - that is good to know. Since I don't have a distributor, it looks like I'd have to put some sort of wheel on the end of a camshaft.

53942

[dn010]

I have the same setup there. Was talking about a cam wheel/trigger to run sequential injection. Which, I can’t run anyway since I have EDIS


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[Josh]

I have the same setup there. Was talking about a cam wheel/trigger to run sequential injection. Which, I can’t run anyway since I have EDIS


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Gotcha

i dont really see how a PRV could benefit from sequential injection / spark. Might not be worth the effort.

[dn010]

I don’t see how any engine running above a nice slow place could benefit from it...


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[FABombjoy]

I was able to lower AFR .1 to .2 just fooling around with injector timing at low RPM. B28F seems happy to have fuel injected into an open(ing) valve. I haven't spent any time in that table since but I suspect there may be a little more efficiency to be picked up once my VE table is sorted.

I wanted to try SFI because it didn't seem to have been done. Talking with the MS folks, I didn't come away with a good feeling about timing precision when using the distributor pickup for engine speed. Adding the crank wheel to guarantee timing means you need cam phase anyway on the oddfire block. Thusly I climbed the sequential mountain "because it was there"

[Bitsyncmaster]

I wanted to try SFI because it didn't seem to have been done. Talking with the MS folks, I didn't come away with a good feeling about timing precision when using the distributor pickup for engine speed. Adding the crank wheel to guarantee timing means you need cam phase anyway on the oddfire block. Thusly I climbed the sequential mountain "because it was there"

A many tooth tach wheel on the crank would give you much faster RPM response readings even with an even fire engine. The odd fire engine you have to use two ignition pulses to measure RPM which even slows down response more. Fast response is helpful getting a better idle.

[dn010]

I am under the impression you need both crank position AND cam position to have sequential injection. This is why even with the ECU knowing cam position, with EDIS the ECU has no idea what stroke the engine is on (since it doesn’t get a 36/1 signal from the crank sensor) thus sequential is not possible.


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[FABombjoy]

A many tooth tach wheel on the crank would give you much faster RPM response readings even with an even fire engine. The odd fire engine you have to use two ignition pulses to measure RPM which even slows down response more. Fast response is helpful getting a better idle.
I used to handle turbo ignition timing exclusively with the MSD box + a MAP sensor. This actually worked fairly well but I'm sure was a bit laggy compared to a crank & cam wheel.

I tried to see if a similar thing would work with Megasquirt. The ideas is to set the ignition map to a static value across the board, adjust the distributor until base timing is correct, then use the 100Kpa+ areas on the ignition map to retard timing. I sent some emails and the answer was "maybe" but it sounded like there were some questions about sync with an ever-changing RPM signal.


I am under the impression you need both crank position AND cam position to have sequential injection. This is why even with the ECU knowing cam position, with EDIS the ECU has no idea what stroke the engine is on (since it doesn’t get a 36/1 signal from the crank sensor) thus sequential is not possible.
I would assume so. A single cam wheel with an asymmetrical pattern and adequate resolution could probably do it but I have no experience there.

It really probably isn't worth the effort to convert an existing batch firesetup to SFI. I'm sure injectors / spray patterns play in to the value equation as well. I happened to get lucky with experimentation and find 30lb injectors that fit the K-Jetronic heads and bullseye the intake valve with a nice fanned spray of fuel. Under these conditions I'm thinking there is an opportunity to capitalize on injector timing and keep fuel as atomized as possible. On a map that is very quick to jump rich under load I was still able to get about 25MPG at an 80MPH average speed with the AC running.