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DMCVegas
11-20-2017, 01:41 AM
After spending all but 2 years of it's life in the dry heat of the desert (as well as being subjected to an idiot who didn't know how to install an alarm system), 6585's wiring is looking grim. Lots of stiff wires here and there, hardened insulation, discolored connections from excessive heat (including a warped inertia switch plug), strained connectors that needed replacement, and a handful of other random gremlins from damage are just some of the problems I've had over the years to go with what I'm facing now. Amazingly enough, I've never had an issue with the fusebox overheating. But I feel that using the existing old wiring is probably pushing my luck too far.

The big question I have though is about the age of the replacement harnesses. To be blunt, are DMCH's wiring still good? I'm not concerned about the prices involved as much as I am the fact that it's still OEM wiring that is approaching 40 years of age. I'd really prefer something with fresh wires, but I don't think I have any other choice.

DMC-81
11-20-2017, 03:38 AM
Hi Robert,

I haven't had to buy a whole harness from DMCH, but I did buy 2 front marker lights (100784 (http://store.delorean.com/p-6898-frt-turnslde-lp-assy.aspx)) that included the pigtail wires and a high pressure switch harness for the A/C system (110526 (http://store.delorean.com/p-7726-harness-wiring-hi-press-sw.aspx)) and I found them both to be in good shape. The insulation was not dried out, the brass connectors were not corroded, and the white rubber "Rists" connector to the high pressure switch was still pliable. These almost looked like new parts. I was impressed.

DMC5180
11-24-2017, 11:29 AM
After spending all but 2 years of it's life in the dry heat of the desert (as well as being subjected to an idiot who didn't know how to install an alarm system), 6585's wiring is looking grim. Lots of stiff wires here and there, hardened insulation, discolored connections from excessive heat (including a warped inertia switch plug), strained connectors that needed replacement, and a handful of other random gremlins from damage are just some of the problems I've had over the years to go with what I'm facing now. Amazingly enough, I've never had an issue with the fusebox overheating. But I feel that using the existing old wiring is probably pushing my luck too far.

The big question I have though is about the age of the replacement harnesses. To be blunt, are DMCH's wiring still good? I'm not concerned about the prices involved as much as I am the fact that it's still OEM wiring that is approaching 40 years of age. I'd really prefer something with fresh wires, but I don't think I have any other choice.

The Harnesses they have have lived there entire lives in large Pallet sized storage bins out of direct sunlight but still exposed to humidity to some extent.

I bought a replacement late style Engine compartment harness about 5 years ago. It was packed in what appeared to be an OE parts bag but don't hold me to that. The wires themselves were much more flexible than what I removed But Not as flexible as what a freshly made harness might be today. Overall I was very happy with what I received. I would not have any concerns about purchasing any additional harnesses If I needed to.

One thing to NOTE. Early on when DMCH first offered replacement Fusebox kits, They took a large number Main harnesses and removed the boxes from them. I don't know If they eventually restored them with remanufactured fuseboxes, but it would have been smart for them to replace the Terminals on those harness with the Improved terminals and reinstalled them with a new Fusebox for the Refurbished car builds they do. If I was looking to replace my main harness, I would inquire to se if i could get one with the new Fuse Box and terminals on it or at least included to swap yourself. My Replacement Fusebox was one of the early take-off kits and NEW fuses, it has been trouble free with NO signs of heat since I installed it 10 + years ago.

DMCVegas
11-25-2017, 05:03 PM
A BIG thank you for the responses! I'd still prefer to have a harness made from brand-new wiring, but I'll take what I can get since anything would be better at this point. Thank you both for sharing actual experiences with the wiring instead of just speculation. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Oh, and I appreciate the heads-up on the Fuse Box! The image on the site does depict one connected to the harness, but I'll double-check with DMCH when the time comes to ensure that a Fuse Box is connected. If it's OEM, I'll go ahead and use it. My original box never gave me a problem, although I did clean all my fuses, sockets, ground points, etc. If I have to buy one of the new ones and attach it myself, I'll probably introduce some Amphenol-Deutsch connectors to swap the box in the future instead of hard wiring it. But we'll see what comes after I order it.

Thanks again everyone!

powerline84
11-25-2017, 05:22 PM
I used a nos 83 style on my restoration from houston. Came in orogional bag and labels . I was pretty happy with it. Only annoying thing is that you need the various plastic clips from your old harness....kinda pissed me off. But to have an actuall now harness in such good shape. Pretty cool

Bitsyncmaster
11-25-2017, 06:51 PM
A BIG thank you for the responses! I'd still prefer to have a harness made from brand-new wiring, but I'll take what I can get since anything would be better at this point. Thank you both for sharing actual experiences with the wiring instead of just speculation. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Oh, and I appreciate the heads-up on the Fuse Box! The image on the site does depict one connected to the harness, but I'll double-check with DMCH when the time comes to ensure that a Fuse Box is connected. If it's OEM, I'll go ahead and use it. My original box never gave me a problem, although I did clean all my fuses, sockets, ground points, etc. If I have to buy one of the new ones and attach it myself, I'll probably introduce some Amphenol-Deutsch connectors to swap the box in the future instead of hard wiring it. But we'll see what comes after I order it.

Thanks again everyone!

You would need to come up with a way to put stripes on the wire to make your own harness. I did a little looking into that and did not come up with anything. If you could stripe the wires, all you need are the basic 10 solid colors to stock.

DMCVegas
11-25-2017, 07:29 PM
I used a nos 83 style on my restoration from houston. Came in orogional bag and labels . I was pretty happy with it. Only annoying thing is that you need the various plastic clips from your old harness....kinda pissed me off. But to have an actuall now harness in such good shape. Pretty cool

More great information, thank you. Questions though: 1. Which clips are you referring to? 2. Any idea on what the differences are with that harness? Does it delete any circuits like the Defrost one for the back glass and/or side mirrors?



You would need to come up with a way to put stripes on the wire to make your own harness. I did a little looking into that and did not come up with anything. If you could stripe the wires, all you need are the basic 10 solid colors to stock.

That shouldn't be a problem in the least. If you wanted to keep things 100% organized & tidy, you can easily source striped automotive wire from a variety of places online. That you could use to create the pigtail on the Fuse Block side. Then create a guide to show which colored wires on the pigtail go into the connector, and a matching on for the opposite gender connection on the harness.

Plugging the Fuse Block in is totally simple. You'd have a couple if options here: First is color coordinating like DMC/Lotus did in the engine compartment with different colored connectors. Use something like Molex ML-XT's with 12 circuits each. You'd need 3 connectors, and could choose a different color for each pair to avoid confusion. Each connector corresponds to one of the 3 vertical rows on the Fuse Box.

Option 2 would be utilizing two 18 circuit Amphenol-Deutsch connectors. Divide those horizontally across the Fuse Box for the top and bottom sections. Then alternate genders on the connectors. I.e. female for the top section, male on the bottom. With this method it would be physically impossible to incorrectly plug the fusebox back in.

It would make the Fuse Box 100% modular for a fast, easy replacement. Not to mention it's the ultimate anti-theft measure. Save for bringing a tow truck, you can't steal a car if it doesn't have a working electrical system.

DMC5180
11-25-2017, 08:36 PM
A main harness is only the central harness. The doors , engine bay, taillight group, headlight group and a couple smaller harnesses are plug in extensions to the main harness. AFIK, the heated mirror circuit was never deleted. Also the light for illuminating the automatic shifter may be in the harness, but on the 5 speed cars the light socket was clipped off with green and black wires taped off and stowed in the left side of the center console near the shifter.

DMCVegas
11-26-2017, 01:03 AM
Right. The reason I bring that up is because during the 2005 Open House event in Houston it was stated that DMCH has a load of rear glass sections without defrosters (http://store.delorean.com/p-9772-glass-rear-wo-defrost.aspx). As much as I have debated pasting a big DMC logo in luminescent paint on my rear glass, keeping that defroster in place and functioning is a priority given that I use mine when driving in the rain. I'd also love to see about installing heater circuits on a set of convex mirrors as well. So that's why I ask if there are any revisions on the '83 wiring harness vs. my '81.

DMC5180
11-26-2017, 08:09 AM
The glass rear glass without a heating element is new to me. Given that 83 cars were put together from 82 left over parts, I really doubt there is any significant changes. The main harness change that I am aware of was the use of fuse 18 for the brake light vs the inline fuse holder version.

Ron
11-27-2017, 06:51 PM
You would need to come up with a way to put stripes on the wire to make your own harness. I did a little looking into that and did not come up with anything. If you could stripe the wires, all you need are the basic 10 solid colors to stock.
FWIW, this used to be a good place for striped wires HERE (http://www.riwire.com/Catalogs/sup/pages/wire.htm). I haven't used them in a long while...

Shep
12-15-2017, 12:29 AM
Late to the party, but had this same experience myself, here's my take on it.

DMCH sells NOS harnesses. That means that yes, the wires are as aged as the cars are. Generally speaking, if you're having electrical issues from bad wires, NOS isn't going to help any. Now, if you're simply missing a bunch, or a crime took place that damaged a lot (vandalism, theft, etc.) or perhaps a fire or two damaged some, there's still a good case for them. But ultimately, the question you should be asking yourself is this:

Are you confident enough in correct assembly and hookup that you are willing to completely redo it? And are you willing to pay more to do it more properly?

If so, then to be blunt, don't go DMCH. The connectors are mostly available still (even reproductions), but the bigger issue is the insulation. 80's wiring used some form of rubber compound in the insulation or something, whatever it was just didn't age well and it's nasty nowadays. Recently we're seeing lots of silicone-insulated wires. These are far better, rated the same, but retain their flexibility and don't succumb to the same "hey let's just chip off a bit of insulation in a spot you won't notice and cause a bunch of headaches for you" issues that 80's wiring has. From a cost perspective, it will be more expensive (full-car harnesses are purpose-built for a niche, I doubt you can get that much wire cheaply, even if you replaced correct coloring with colored heat-shrink tubing), you'll need to assemble every connector yourself, there's more work involved.

It's completely worth it if you're fully capable and willing to pay the premium, but that's a personal choice and I can't guide you one way or the other on that. But again, you're mostly benefitting on 40 years of wiring advancements and still missing out on 40 years of connector advancements (nobody uses the kinds of connectors this car has, not since the IDE-to-SATA transition that removed the 4-pin power connectors), 40 years of good electrical practice (high-power fusebox by battery, low-power fusebox on interior, segregating parasitic draw from high current) and other areas of possible electrical improvements (who the hell was the intern that designed the taillight boards seriously? Even by 80's standards, they were electrically clueless, those trace widths speak for themselves). It's certainly a start, but it's another cat-and-mouse game of "how far do you go?" DMCH harnesses will get you 95% of the way there. The rest is adapting to your specific VIN most likely.

That said, this part did catch my eye and I wanted to clarify something:


I'd also love to see about installing heater circuits on a set of convex mirrors as well. So that's why I ask if there are any revisions on the '83 wiring harness vs. my '81.The circuit for the heated mirror (a plug already exists in the door, it's the black/green one) is tied to if memory serves ACC, it might just be "key to ON" though, I need to check. That's how mine are wired, and I have the ones from DeLoreanA.com, Tom in Poland's batch. Can't recommend them enough, but holy shit it took me THREE DAYS to fish the wires through from mirror to inside the door, even with the access panel on the mirror itself off! Probably needed to drill something somewhere, but it's just such an insanely tight squeeze on that pivoting arm that if you haven't already, and have time, fish wires through now and wait for later, you won't regret it.

DMCVegas
12-16-2017, 01:06 AM
I have confidence in myself to install a new harness, yes. Constructing one from scratch myself? No. I don't have the time, patience, nor proper experience for that. But am I willing to pay someone else to create one for me that I can install? You bet I am.

Modern connections would be a plus, but I'd accept a plug & play OEM harness that used all new wires and pins. I've seen some places online that state they can rebuild harnesses, but none I've seen so far list a product for the DMC-12. Price wise I hate throwing out an amount I'm willing to pay to give someone carte blanche billing power over me, but I'd absolutely be willing to pay more than what DMCH is selling their NOS stuff for. Which hell, I don't even know if it includes the upgraded fusebox or not. Speaking of which Houston also says they have a new harness in the works for the replica vehicles coming out, but no updates there let alone information on if it'll even have the same amount of circuits to be compatible... But that's a whole other rabbit hole I don't want to go down.

I've still got some time before I order parts since I want to first acquire a secure garage space to begin work on the vehicle. But what was the solution you settled on in your case?

Also, thank you for the heads-up on the mirrors! I've got to replace the glass, swap the door lock & launcher solenoids, and finish with reupholstering. So I'll add that wiring to the list.

Shep
12-16-2017, 06:31 AM
A healthy mix of both. I don't know the where and how much of new vs. NOS, but that's largely because I paid DPI Josh upfront and got a smoking deal on the labor costs as a result of a miscalculation in my serious favor.

I do know the spot in the engine bay opposite the fusebox on the interior, with all the connections, was replaced outright with new wiring. Kept testing fine one time, then bad the next, too reliable to make sense of (by the way, Bluetooth multimeters are amazing things, I have one and LOVE its graphing capabilities in the app). With the conversion to EFI, much got removed too, ultimately that might be a good idea though: test every wire individually and decide from there.

Connectors: British Wiring has a bunch, including the one for the mirrors. Eastern Beaver has the radio connector, maybe a few others. Some are still being made and readily available (the clock is a TE Connectivity plug on DigiKey), others are NLA, some are purpose-built (taillights), depends on where you go, but that should get you started.

If you find an easy way to install the mirror wiring, update us please! I want to upgrade to flashers in the mirrors, but the fit is too tight already, so I may need to widen the hole somehow.

DMC5180
12-17-2017, 12:47 AM
If you find an easy way to install the mirror wiring, update us please! I want to upgrade to flashers in the mirrors, but the fit is too tight already, so I may need to widen the hole somehow.

I have The Deloreana heated mirrors and have done a partial install of a signal indicator behind the mirror glass. The wires for the indicator were small 22 or 24 awg wire. It was a tight fit getting all the wires through the Mirror pivot point, but it was doable. I have yet to finish the signal kit installation fully. I still need to add the feed wires from the fusebox to the door. Its a low priority project so I have no idea if or when iíll finish it.

Shep
12-19-2017, 01:07 AM
Heated mirrors use I think 18 AWG, maybe even 16. Remember, it's a giant resistor, lots of current needed compared to LED's, so if 22 AWG was a tight fit, God help us

Bitsyncmaster
12-19-2017, 05:10 AM
Heated mirrors use I think 18 AWG, maybe even 16. Remember, it's a giant resistor, lots of current needed compared to LED's, so if 22 AWG was a tight fit, God help us

Use Teflon insulated wire. Teflon is a better insulator so it is very thin and it slides easily. It also is rated for higher temps.

Shep
12-19-2017, 05:40 AM
Use Teflon insulated wire. Teflon is a better insulator so it is very thin and it slides easily. It also is rated for higher temps.Tell Tom that, I bought it off of him :) (Tom in Poland, that is -- tongue-in-cheek I swear).

Realistically though that pivot probably never meant to see wires pass inside of it. I think the heated mirror concept was abandoned long after the wiring harness was finalized in the doors, but well before mirror design was finished. That's why the plug exists but isn't connected, while the mirrors took a few days to do for me. Even the factory workers wouldn't have been able to assemble this easily. I have long suspected a more suitable pivot joint exists, but I would need to get a very rough mirror first before I can identify a source.

What handles cold better Dave, teflon or slicone? Haven't heard of teflon insulation yet, I know Adafruit sells silicone insulation and it's fantastic, but my thought is how to get the power to the mirror and handle winter temps well.

Shep
12-19-2017, 05:47 AM
I have The Deloreana heated mirrors Oh wait, I'm dumb, I just saw this part of the post. So heated mirror + signals is doable? That's really good news for me, but I wonder too if it's necessary for all four wires. LED ground could be tapped into heater ground early on, still though the fact that it physically fits is great news! Means it's not all that challenging.

Now if you want auto-dimming side mirrors with blinkers and heat... I think it's fair to say ditch the mirrors you got and get some JDM ones! (Or just some aftermarket really)

Bitsyncmaster
12-19-2017, 06:39 AM
What handles cold better Dave, teflon or slicone? Haven't heard of teflon insulation yet, I know Adafruit sells silicone insulation and it's fantastic, but my thought is how to get the power to the mirror and handle winter temps well.

Teflon was the military selection for most vehicles because it saved weight and make the harness smaller. It has been found if the Teflon burns it gives off harmful gasses so it's use in aircraft is now limited. You can still buy it but cost is higher than PVC. Ebay has a lot of it often. Teflon does not have an aging or temperature problem like PVC

DMC5180
12-19-2017, 07:06 AM
Oh wait, I'm dumb, I just saw this part of the post. So heated mirror + signals is doable? That's really good news for me, but I wonder too if it's necessary for all four wires. LED ground could be tapped into heater ground early on, still though the fact that it physically fits is great news! Means it's not all that challenging.

Now if you want auto-dimming side mirrors with blinkers and heat... I think it's fair to say ditch the mirrors you got and get some JDM ones! (Or just some aftermarket really)

Here is the partial install with the signal wires Red & Black.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171219/b6d511ffe6c3e726a033aec24d98c924.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shep
12-19-2017, 10:12 AM
I must have gone the wrong way on mine,
maybe pulled instead of pushed, there's plenty of clearance for two 14 AWG wires by the looks of it, I shouldn't have had issues. Huh.


Teflon was the military selection for most vehicles because it saved weight and make the harness smaller. It has been found if the Teflon burns it gives off harmful gasses so it's use in aircraft is now limited. You can still buy it but cost is higher than PVC. Ebay has a lot of it often. Teflon does not have an aging or temperature problem like PVC
Silicone, not PVC, as in this stuff: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1881 -- that vendor only sells tiny sizes, but it got me wanting to ask about it. PVC's the standard, I saw silicone and now a mention of Teflon and I'm learning.

I will say that if your wires are burning in a mirror heater, you have more important issues to worry about. Like finding the nearest fire extinguisher, or simply turning the car off. This is a use case where Teflon is fine. Putting it in the engine bay however (say, as an O2 sensor wire) should probably be avoided knowing that.

Elvis
12-27-2017, 08:41 AM
Mirror heating - waste of time !

I installed them and routed the wires to the connector but never connected them.
Never needed them.
Just useless extra work.
I recommended many others NOT to install them.

Shep
12-27-2017, 09:11 AM
Mirror heating - waste of time !False.

Mind sharing why you feel that way? I for one love being able to see my blind spots when it rains and/or is humid out.

Elvis
12-27-2017, 10:38 AM
Never had a problem with the mirror, and I drove it thru rain and snow.

Or did you ever use the rear window defogger ? that's comparable.

Then - most people don't drive them during winter or very bad weather
anymore, these are classic cars now.

Convex mirrors are great, I always suggest them. And without the heater
they can be installed in 1-2 hours.

DMC5180
12-27-2017, 11:29 AM
Whether they are needed or used is not really the point. My personal reason for installing the mirror heaters was to complete what was originally intended by the factory. The downside with using the OE wiring as configured, is that they are ON all the time. Mine have been installed many years now like that. To use them the correct way, you would need to reconfigure the feed wires and tie them to the Rear Window Defrost circuit.

As far as driving In winter conditions, NO!

Fall conditions where frost is present in the morning, YES! Fall driving is very pleasant in the D.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shep
12-27-2017, 12:39 PM
Or did you ever use the rear window defogger ? that's comparable.Not even remotely close, apples and oranges comparison there. Rear glass has the engine to heat it up (and does so rather quickly I should add) which is itself a defroster, but it's still mostly not needed due to the louvers blocking the rain. The rear glass is extremely well protected from the elements already.

You act like these cars are only useful on a bright sunny day, and the rest of us are heathens and abuse our cars. "these are classic cars now" -- sorry, but it IS a car, whether you like it or not, and many of us flatly disagree with the sentiment that rain is "very bad weather" (?!?!). The sheer number of daily driven DeLoreans is absurd, I would argue the "most people" bit is very presumptuous.

Frankly, we were fine discussing how to install the heated mirrors and difficulties therein until you showed up and called them "useless". I pointed out two use cases frequently cited as advantages of heated mirrors -- i.e. you're clearly wrong on two counts -- and your counter is an ad hominem attack and a strawman. I fail to see how any of this is helping others on the install process?!

Elvis
12-29-2017, 09:27 AM
why do you take it so personally ?

Rear window - I needed the rear window heater as often as the mirror heater.
Never. That's what I meant.

I installed the wires but never connected them because I never needed the mirror heaters.
Not a single time in 16 years.

If you need them - go for it.

Most others will also never need them and they can save their time for installing it.
There are enough out there who confirmed me.
Really no reason to take it personally.

Shep
12-29-2017, 11:47 AM
why do you take it so personally ?
1) Come in with an aggressive statement guaranteed to roll a few heads

2) Cop out with "don't take it personally" approach when others dispute the facts at hand, despite no one being personally offended in any capacity

What's hilarious is you seem to think literally zero people quantifies "enough out there who confirmed" it useless -- are we counting crickets? Nobody responded in your defense. Probably because, again, this is a "how to" thread that has now been derailed into banter about how useful / wasteful it is to do it.

Even you said you installed the wires -- why go through the hassle if you weren't debating it? That's literally the single hardest part. Frankly I'm tempted to ask for proof it's not connected knowing you did most of the job and are still stirring the pot.

One man's personal experience of sunny weather only driving doesn't mean they are universally "useless". It also doesn't speak for all the other ~8k (9k?) drivers' experiences, and shouldn't be taken as the de facto standard. Some areas have such a high humidity level, even at speed, moisture collects on the glass. Get a recent rainfall, a car in front, now the water's airborne. Combine that with post-stone-age mirror alignment (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots), and suddenly you're down from seeing the whole 5-lane highway you're on to only your middle lane. Not a safe way to travel, it's no small wonder they're catching on as much as they are in these parts where humidity is a solid 75% in the summer.

You only need enough to aid the evaporation process so the mirrors dry themselves off and you can see the lanes beside you. Heaters provide that.

DMCVegas
12-29-2017, 10:33 PM
This thread, while deviating from the original topic, has become a useful example of both why the defroster is needed, as well as a fantastic example of why diversity is important to learn from examples of others that you've never experienced.

I don't merely want glass & mirror defrosters; I NEED them because of where I drive and the environment I encounter. Allow me to explain here. Everyone else is talking about snow & water. Both are scenarios which only account for water falling from above. But no one is considering the problem of water spraying up through the engine compartment. During the monsoon season of the summer, and winter storms in Las Vegas we encounter situations like this:

https://mediaassets.ktnv.com/photo/2016/12/24/Heavy_flooding_on_Las_Vegas_Boulevard__C_0_5204437 0_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

It may only be a couple of inches deep at the most, but when you hit floodwater on the street, that cold water will splash up onto the engine block, manifolds, and the entire exhaust system. When that happens, it's like a bomb going off in the engine compartment with steam billowing out. It will create a trail of steam behind the car that exhausts out of the louvers, and will immediately fog up the rear glass and block all rear vision.

The fun bonus is also when the car or huge truck in the lane next to you decides to hit the water and splash a huge tidal wave of floodwater all over your hood, windscreen, and the side of your car. Sure I already have the wipers going to clear the windscreen, but now my side mirrors are completely useless since they're fogged over. So with the rear glass and side mirrors fogged over, I'm blind to the cars on the sides and rear of me. So I do in fact use the defrosters all around me. But even with the stock defroster, I can only recover rear vision and not sides. Can't even turn my head since the outer quarter panel glass is totally fogged over as well.

Now if you're in an environment where you don't drive during rain storms, let alone an area no subject to such drainage problems, you'll probably never see this problem. Even if you drove during a snow storm, the water is frozen and won't have the same problems with the engine compartment, and probably not with the side mirrors. Hell, most of you don't really even realize this problem exists because pretty much any front-engined car has a big rubber gasket like a door seal that goes all across the top of the firewall to prevent that steam from coming up to fog your windshield to blind you. Check your other cars. Hell, Google image search any car out there and see it for yourself.

Now having said all of this, I don't look down on people who don't drive their cars year round. Granted some DeLoreans have never even been in the rain, and that simply isn't something I can related to. Because there are certain things that I absolutely need. Just like the door vents. Lots of people talk about sealing them off. Not an option for me as I still need them to defrost the door glass and to stave off the solar heat in the summer, so I fixed the ducting instead of just sealing everything off. Was it allot of work? Yup. But it needed to be done. But still, I'm not going to tell anyone how to enjoy their cars...just so long as you don't tell me how to enjoy mine. I had mine as a daily driver for years, and encountered things from rain & snow to raw sewage spills. I've actually used my car as intended. Not everyone does, and that's fine. But please, realize that your experiences are not going to be the same as those which others will have, and that means that our needs will be different as well. A modification that might be considered an unnecessary waste of time for one person, isn't the case for someone else's car who may actually need it.