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Gruffalo
02-10-2018, 02:32 PM
Hi

Iím considering doing this swap. How hard is it to make a B28E work? The engine is out of a euro spec Volvo 760.

From what I can see it has a fuel pump on the cam cover, as opposed to the deloreanís electrical one.

Would you recommend keeping the Volvo fuel and ignition system?

Magne




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Rich_NYS
02-10-2018, 05:10 PM
Andrew swapped a B28F:

http://dmctoday.com/showthread.php?2316-Volvo-B28F-Engine-Swap

Andrew
02-12-2018, 12:42 PM
Externally the B28E Volvo swap should be the same as the B28F Volvo swap that I performed on 4194 a little over a year ago. Changing the necessary parts to convert a Volvo PRV to a Renault / DeLorean PRV took a couple hours and wasn't too difficult. Just make sure to torque the lower crankcase 100 percent by the book and you should be fine. Aside from the lower crankcase, you'll need to swap the crank pulley, passenger side valve cover, the alternator mount and various oil and temp sending units. I can't recall whether the exhaust manifolds are the same. Either way, it would be a good idea to replace the exhaust manifold gaskets and hardware while the engine is out.

The later Volvo PRV's, 84 on IIRC, use a different water pump and water pump Y-pipe. The later style water pump / y-pipe combo might clear the k-jet manifold, but it will not clear the Peugeot carb manifold, so I swapped the water pump and pipe assembly from my old PRV.

Make sure that the engine is indeed a B28E as opposed to the later B280E. Swapping to the later, even fire, EFI engine would entail much more work. Also, check the build tag to confirm that the engine is indeed a euro spec engine. The Volvo tag red in color and is a little smaller than one square inch. It is located on the side of the engine near the oil filter / oil pressure sender.

With regard to the B28E fuel system, I believe the euro spec cars did not have a lambda system and they might have a different calibration to compensate for the higher compression ratio, but I don't know for sure.

On an aside, how did you find a euro spec engined Volvo on this side of the pond?

Good luck with the swap!

Andrew
4194
5052

Gruffalo
02-12-2018, 01:20 PM
Externally the B28E Volvo swap should be the same as the B28F Volvo swap that I performed on 4194 a little over a year ago. Changing the necessary parts to convert a Volvo PRV to a Renault / DeLorean PRV took a couple hours and wasn't too difficult. Just make sure to torque the lower crankcase 100 percent by the book and you should be fine. Aside from the lower crankcase, you'll need to swap the crank pulley, passenger side valve cover, the alternator mount and various oil and temp sending units. I can't recall whether the exhaust manifolds are the same. Either way, it would be a good idea to replace the exhaust manifold gaskets and hardware while the engine is out.

The later Volvo PRV's, 84 on IIRC, use a different water pump and water pump Y-pipe. The later style water pump / y-pipe combo might clear the k-jet manifold, but it will not clear the Peugeot carb manifold, so I swapped the water pump and pipe assembly from my old PRV.

Make sure that the engine is indeed a B28E as opposed to the later B280E. Swapping to the later, even fire, EFI engine would entail much more work. Also, check the build tag to confirm that the engine is indeed a euro spec engine. The Volvo tag red in color and is a little smaller than one square inch. It is located on the side of the engine near the oil filter / oil pressure sender.

With regard to the B28E fuel system, I believe the euro spec cars did not have a lambda system and they might have a different calibration to compensate for the higher compression ratio, but I don't know for sure.

On an aside, how did you find a euro spec engined Volvo on this side of the pond?

Good luck with the swap!

Andrew
4194
5052

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180212/8d5cf720cefe45efd049ab5cab631e5a.jpg

Thanks for the extensive answer!

Iím pretty sure itís a B28E, out of an euro spec 760

M



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Andrew
02-12-2018, 02:35 PM
Nice! And it's already out of the car, which makes it that much better. Plus, as a bonus, you got a highly sought after bolt on water pump pulley :-)

I forgot to mention that the valve covers and flywheel need to be swapped out as well.

The little red tag on the side of the block should say B28E.

Even if the fuel system is in an unknown condition, the parts still have core value. I recouped half of what I spent on the Volvo PRV by selling the core K-jet parts.

Gruffalo
02-12-2018, 05:33 PM
I have 4 fuel distributors all together, partly because I have a B27 in my possession as well.

Whatís the big deal about the bolt on pulley? I think I might have thrown one in the trash tonight. Should I go look for it?


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Lough Shore Man
02-12-2018, 06:10 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck

Click on the link, its not so hard to do. I went with EFI and a stand alone management system, again its mostly plug and play..

Andrew
02-12-2018, 07:51 PM
I have 4 fuel distributors all together, partly because I have a B27 in my possession as well.

Whatís the big deal about the bolt on pulley? I think I might have thrown one in the trash tonight. Should I go look for it?


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The advantage of the bolt on pulley is that it allows you to use the less expensive Volvo water pump as opposed to the DeLorean water pump with the pressed on pulley. Plus it's a lot easier to install the bolt on pulley than pressing the pulley off the old pump and onto the new one.

Over the years various vendors have offered bolt on pulley options; however, there have been extended periods where the pulleys have been unavailable.

FABombjoy
02-12-2018, 10:41 PM
The advantage of the bolt on pulley is that it allows you to use the less expensive Volvo water pump
To put "less expensive" in perspective, the GMB 190-2040 pump is about $75 new (non-reman).

Gruffalo
02-13-2018, 08:18 AM
OK, I have a spare bolt on pulley to share then :)


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Gruffalo
02-14-2018, 01:16 PM
@Andrew: unfortunately Iím unable to see the photos you uploaded to DMCtoday. Do you feel like reposting them here?


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Andrew
02-14-2018, 05:13 PM
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Here are the pictures that I took back in October / November 2016. Sorry if they aren't the greatest quality. Converting the Volvo engine to a DMC engine was pretty straightforward. Just make sure to follow the angular torqueing sequence detailed within the DMC shop manual when installing the lower crankcase. When swapping the lower crankcase make sure not to disturb the main bearing caps (don't flip the engine over when the lower crankcase is off or loose).

Also make sure to get the proper sealant and sealant primer. I still have both, thus I should be able to get you the part numbers without too much difficulty. IIRC I swapped the front cover from my DMC engine, but I can't recall why.

I contemplated cutting the outer two pulley groves off the four groove Volvo crank pulley to use in conjunction with the double groove water pump pulley. This, along with a longer A/C belt, would have provided the benefit / extra security of a dual water pump belt setup. Due to time constraints I didn't follow through on this mod, but it would certainly be interesting.




@Andrew: unfortunately Iím unable to see the photos you uploaded to DMCtoday. Do you feel like reposting them here?


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Gruffalo
02-15-2018, 07:00 AM
Thanks!

How exactly do you mate the dmc wiring harness to the ignition and fuel injection respectively?

The whole lambda setup is obsolete? You didnít connect the lambda ecu at all? How do you get rpm to the tachometer?

And what about the idle control system? Wur and cold start injector?

I would like the Volvo engine to work as it did in the Volvo, I donít mind at all omitting the clunky dmc addons.


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Gruffalo
02-15-2018, 07:02 AM
And, yeah. For once I should strive to use the proper chemicals for sealing. In earlier projects Iíve just used generic gasket silicone, with mixed results.


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FABombjoy
02-15-2018, 10:51 AM
I can answer a few of these for Andrew ;)


How do you get rpm to the tachometer?
Tach is triggered from the coil (-) wire. Virtually any OEM single-coil ignition system will drive the tach. MSD needs an adapter.


How exactly do you mate the dmc wiring harness to the ignition and fuel injection respectively?
The whole lambda setup is obsolete? You didnít connect the lambda ecu at all?
And what about the idle control system? Wur and cold start injector?

These are all answered with the word "carbureted" :D

If you're just performing a short block swap all of the electrical Bosch FI parts should bolt up. You could keep the DMC intake manifold to be sure of the mounting provisions.

I would keep the DMC crank pulley as it's quite a bit lighter than the Volvo pulley. Plus it has a larger OD and will overdrive the AC compressor which is probably not desirable.

Gruffalo
02-15-2018, 11:07 AM
OK, thanks!

I'm not going carbureted. I'm going to use the Volvo unit as is (as much as possible).

Andrew
02-15-2018, 12:25 PM
+1 On what Luke said.

Sorry I can't provide more K-Jet info...now if you wanted into on the Peugeot 604 Solex Carb setup, I'm the guy LOL.

I would use the B28E distributor as opposed to the DMC distributor. The DMC distributors were known for having a very mild advance curve, thus making the slightly higher performance Volvo units more desirable. I'm running late 70's Volvo distributors sourced from B28F engines on both of my Deloreans, and I've been happy with the results.

It would be interesting to confirm what distributor Volvo used on the B28E. If it's not too much trouble, could you post the Bosch part number from the distributor body?

With regard to the lower crankcase swap, take a look at Joe's pictures and documentation from his 3.0 swap. His pictures are better than mine. In addition to the Volvo and DMC workshop manual, I used his website to walk me through the crankcase swap procedure.

http://www.tmproductions.com/repairs-and-maintenance-blog/2014/7/6/reassembling-the-30l-lower-crankcase

By the way, where are you located and how did you find a B28E?

FABombjoy
02-15-2018, 01:07 PM
It would be interesting to confirm what distributor Volvo used on the B28E.
Volvo manual TP31397-1 shows:

(Values below given in engine RPM / degrees - manual lists values at distributor RPM / degrees)

B28E: 0 237 402 013
Total advance: 26 degrees
Advance curves from 900/1150 RPM to 4800 RPM
Vacuum adds 15 degrees

B28F: 0 237 402 017
Total advance: 22 degrees (listed as 13 distributor degrees)
Advance curves from 1000/1200 RPM to 4000 RPM
Vacuum adds 20 degrees

Photo of curves on page 76

Rich_NYS
02-15-2018, 03:47 PM
Volvo manual TP31397-1 shows:

(Values below given in engine RPM / degrees - manual lists values at distributor RPM / degrees)

B28E: 0 237 402 013
Total advance: 26 degrees
Advance curves from 900/1150 RPM to 4800 RPM
Vacuum adds 15 degrees

B28F: 0 237 402 017
Total advance: 22 degrees (listed as 13 distributor degrees)
Advance curves from 1000/1200 RPM to 4000 RPM
Vacuum adds 20 degrees

Photo of curves on page 76


I went straight to page 76.

FABombjoy
02-15-2018, 04:14 PM
I went straight to page 76.
͡į ͜ʖ ͡ -

Gruffalo
02-15-2018, 05:42 PM
Thanks everyone. Iím located in Norway, Europe. I came across the Volvo engine by chance. An amcar enthusiast bought a Volvo 760 and decided to fit americano iron in it. The prv has sat on a pallet in dry storage ever since . I havenít taken delivery of it yet, more details when I get it on Tuesday


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Gruffalo
02-17-2018, 07:25 AM
Trivial question maybe, but what do the three ecuís do?

- small black one, idle control unit. I guess it controls the idle speed unit on the drivers side cam cover. But whatís its input?
- gray, connected to o2 sensor (lambda). O2 is input, what does it output to?
- second gray one, connected to distributor, affects dwell? Input/output?

Iím investigating this to prepare for the B28E swap.

#5063




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Bitsyncmaster
02-17-2018, 08:29 AM
Trivial question maybe, but what do the three ecuís do?

- small black one, idle control unit. I guess it controls the idle speed unit on the drivers side cam cover. But whatís its input?
- gray, connected to o2 sensor (lambda). O2 is input, what does it output to?
- second gray one, connected to distributor, affects dwell? Input/output?

Iím investigating this to prepare for the B28E swap.

#5063

Idle ECU controls the idle motor to hold idle RPM at 775 RPM. It uses the ignition signal to read RPM and a temperature sensor to modify starting position of the idle motor.

Lambda ECU reads the O2 sensor voltage to control mixture to 14.7 AFR via controlling dwell of the frequency valve.

Ignition ECU inputs the signal from the ignition distributor and using that signal to drive the ignition coil. Ignition dwell is just a factor in how long the ECU drives current to the ignition coil. If dwell was to low your RPM would be limited. If dwell is to high the ignition coil heats up more than necessary.

Gruffalo
02-17-2018, 08:51 AM
Idle ECU controls the idle motor to hold idle RPM at 775 RPM. It uses the ignition signal to read RPM and a temperature sensor to modify starting position of the idle motor.

Lambda ECU reads the O2 sensor voltage to control mixture to 14.7 AFR via controlling dwell of the frequency valve.

Ignition ECU inputs the signal from the ignition distributor and using that signal to drive the ignition coil. Ignition dwell is just a factor in how long the ECU drives current to the ignition coil. If dwell was to low your RPM would be limited. If dwell is to high the ignition coil heats up more than necessary.

Idle ECU: got it!

Lambda ECU: by frequency valve you mean the little device on the pass side valve cover? I guess this whole setup is missing on the non-catalytic converter B28E.

Ignition ECU: how exactly does it drive the coil? By cutting 12v to the coil on/off?

The Volvo B28E has a different ignition curve, is that implemented into the distributor itself? Will I still benefit from that if use the dmc ignition ECU? Or do I need to get the Volvo ignition ECU?

Thanks a lot for your thorough answer:)

M


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Bitsyncmaster
02-17-2018, 10:24 AM
Idle ECU: got it!

Lambda ECU: by frequency valve you mean the little device on the pass side valve cover? I guess this whole setup is missing on the non-catalytic converter B28E.

Ignition ECU: how exactly does it drive the coil? By cutting 12v to the coil on/off?

The Volvo B28E has a different ignition curve, is that implemented into the distributor itself? Will I still benefit from that if use the dmc ignition ECU? Or do I need to get the Volvo ignition ECU?

Thanks a lot for your thorough answer:)

Yes the frequency valve is on the pass side valve cover.

All ignition ECUs (and point engines) break or connect the ground side of the ignition coil. The positive side is always powered usually through a resistor. When the current stops (ground side is open) the coil provides a spark voltage.

Gruffalo
02-17-2018, 11:01 AM
Thanks, my final question still is: will I need the ecu from the Volvo to take full advantage of a B28E upgrade?


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FABombjoy
02-17-2018, 11:05 AM
The distributor is all you'll need.

Bitsyncmaster
02-17-2018, 02:11 PM
FYI:

The stock DeLorean ignition ECU and the Ford ECU Bill R run pretty much hold full dwell always. I updated to a GM module which has a very wide dwell change. That and a 1.5 ohm coil let me run without any resistors powering the coil.

Gruffalo
02-20-2018, 02:52 PM
I just took delivery of the B28E, and it appears to be stored indoors at least, albeit somewhat grimy.

But to my disappointment the fuel distributor is missing.

Can I use the garage one from the delorean, and make it work without the buzzer?


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Gruffalo
02-20-2018, 04:40 PM
+1 On what Luke said.


It would be interesting to confirm what distributor Volvo used on the B28E. If it's not too much trouble, could you post the Bosch part number from the distributor body?

?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180220/c0c2291485b094fdb91ad9d1c990f724.jpg


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Drive Stainless
02-20-2018, 04:53 PM
I just took delivery of the B28E, and it appears to be stored indoors at least, albeit somewhat grimy.

But to my disappointment the fuel distributor is missing.

Can I use the garage one from the delorean, and make it work without the buzzer?


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Carb it!

Timeless
04-19-2019, 08:40 PM
Anyone consider a reman B28? Anyone swapped utilizing a reman engine?
http://www.rebuiltcrateengines.com/auto/volvo.html