3.0L Megasquirt w/ EDIS: Headers running at different temps?

[jangell]

After an oil delivery issue, I'm back to getting my 3.0L conversion idling. I'm having trouble, though, and I may have tracked down the cause, but I want to ask if anyone has any ideas before I tear the engine apart again.

First:
- Ignition timing at idle is currently at ~14 degrees. I confirmed that what TunerStudio shows is the same as what a timing gun shows, so I believe this to be correct.
- Coil-on-plug via EDIS, spark plugs are all firing
- Fuel delivery appears to be good
- Engine cranks and starts, but seeks at idle (500-800 RPM)
- DPI headers, Magnaflow CARB-compliant cats, Borla Pro XS muffler
- Fairly sure there aren't any vacuum leaks...

The first problem I had was that the passenger side exhaust pipe and part of the catalytic converter (on the outlet side of the cat) was glowing once the engine got up to temp. Theorizing that this the silencers were too restrictive, I put in new pipes without silencers. I also replaced the cats with shorter ones that gave me a little more room for mounting, which also rules out the cats. Neither of these had any effect, other than the glowing was limited to the cat now. It's worth noting that ONLY the passenger side cat was glowing in both cases, and that the passenger side headers were reading about twice as hot as the driver's side with an IR thermometer.

I found out that the throttle wasn't closing all the way (mis-adjusted throttle cable). I fixed that this morning, but I didn't have much time to play with the car, so I only had time to start it once and let it idle. It never quite got up to temperature during that time, and eventually stalled out as I played with the VE table to try to smooth it out.

Using the IR thermometer, I got a reading in the high 300s (350-375 F) for the driver's side at the point where the header pipes merge to the exhaust pipe before the cat. On the passenger side, however, I was only reading in the low 100s (115 F or so). I individually tested the header pipes from each exhaust port as well. I got in the low 100s for cylinders 1, 2 and 3, in the high 300s for 4 and 5, and a more like the mid 300s for 6. I'm guessing some variance is normal given the inaccuracies of the IR thermometer and ambient heat in the area, but not the amount of variance I'm seeing between the driver's and passenger sides.

In all of these situations, the AFR reported by TunerStudio via my LC2 O2 sensor was way too high. With the slightly open throttle it was around 22:1, and now it's down to around 19:1, but as I understand it I want 14.7:1. Note that the single O2 sensor is installed in the driver's side header (there's a narrow band sensor plugging the bung in the passenger side header, but it isn't hooked up to anything).

The question is: Why is the passenger side's temperature so much lower than the driver's?

My current theory is that I may have incorrectly installed the timing chain to the passenger side camshaft. If it were off by a tooth, that might explain why it's running so lean (I think?). Of course, I need to pull at least the valve covers and I think the timing cover (and thus the muffler to get enough room) to re-time. I'd really prefer not to take all that apart to find out that it's not a timing problem, so I'm wondering if anyone else has any other ideas first. It does seem like it would explain all the issues, though. Really wish I'd though to recheck this when I replaced the main crank bearings...

I've attached a TunerStudio log from today's test in case anyone can glean anything useful from that. It took three tries to start the engine, and I started playing with the VE table near the end to try to smooth out the idle a bit before it eventually stalled out.

Thanks!

-- Joe

Glowing Cat:
57313

TunerStudio Log: 57314

[opethmike]

Are you getting the same AFR on both banks?

Have you made 100% certain you don't have vacuum leaks?

[Josh]

After you get this sorted you will need to do some tuning. It is running WAY lean. dangerously so.
Part of the tuning is setting the resting position of the throttle body blade. it may not be all the way closed at idle.

[jangell]

Are you getting the same AFR on both banks?

I only have the one wide band O2 sensor, so I’ve only been reading the AFR from the driver’s side bank. I suppose I could move the sensor to the other bank and see what I get (I think the wire is long enough...). I can test that this morning befor I stat taking off the valve covers.


Have you made 100% certain you don't have vacuum leaks?

Not 100%, but pretty close. I did a pro-and test a few weeks ago and couldn’t find anything, although holding th e propane at the throttle didn’t show anything either, which is odd; I’d have expected the engine to rev. I can do another test this morning. I think I have a vacuum test kit somewhere that I can try too.

Thanks

— Joe

[jangell]

After you get this sorted you will need to do some tuning. It is running WAY lean. dangerously so.

Part of the tuning is setting the resting position of the throttle body blade. it may not be all the way closed at idle.

The throttle was very slightly open, (more accurately, it wasn’t closing all the way when the throttle was released). But I’ve fixed that so it is completely closed at idle by adjusting the throttle cable. I’m not entirely sure if you mean that the problem my bethat it’s not completely closed, or that for some tunes it may have to be adjusted so that it isn’t completely closed.

Back on my 2.8L engine I had a problem with the throttles not closing all the way. It turned out that the bar that the throttles were attached to was slightly bent, so while the spring was all the way returned, the blades never quite closed all the way, and this caused it to run way too lead and for the cats to glow. This took me way too long to figure out, in part because I thought I read somewhere that they were supposed to be slightly open.

If I can get the AFR down, I think I can finally tune for idle and get this thing on the road. It did run a little smoother with your tune, incidentally, but obviously I have to fix the extreme lean situation before going any further.

Thanks!

— Joe

[jangell]

I swapped the wide band O2 to the passenger side and hooked up a vacuum gauge to a T in the vacuum line this morning.

AFR is reading 22 on the passenger side. I’m honestly not sure if the O2 sensor is working correctly. I did calibrate it in open air just a couple of weeks ago. It reads around 7.5-7.7 when the car is off, but after about 20 seconds it flies up to 22 again and stays there, just like it does when it’s running.

EGO Control in TunerStudio is set to Single Wideband, Local port. I have TunerStudio set to the LC-2 in the Calibrate AFR Table Settings. I don’t think there’s anything else to set, is there? Josh, did you change any of the LC-2 settings from the defaults?

Vacuum varies, since the engine is seeking at idle, but it seems to be between around 17 in/Hg at lower RPMs (below 600) and close to 28 in/Hg when it seeks higher (800s).

Video of the gauge. You can hear the engine seeking as well. https://youtu.be/EzR6lXzU_wg

I did a second test and it idled a little better, stying in the high 600s and low 700s. This showed vacuum of closer to the range to 18 to 23 in/Hg. Here’s a video of that. https://youtu.be/UtsHRUjhABc

To be honest, I’m not sure what I’m looking for here. I seem to have vacuum that holds reasonably well, and varies with engine speed.

I’m going to hold off on taking off the valve covers until next weekend, I think, just in case anyone has any other ideas for what I should try first.

Thanks!

— Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

That vacuum seems way to high. Does your engine have deceleration valves on the throttle plates? That high vacuum would make them open. I would guess your throttle plates are completely closed and your just idling with the idle speed hold system.

[jangell]

I honestly don’t know if there are deceleration plates. This is a 1989 Monaco engine with a Mustang throttle (that last part I got off Josh).

A quick correction to my earlier post: the RPMs were ranging from the 500s to the 1100s when it seeked. Not sure if that puts the vacuum in a better range or not.

I connected a multimeter to the narrow band O2 sensor. I understand 0.5v is stoichiometric, and I got at most 0.35v, which eventually dropped to about 0.19v before it stalled out. I’m definitely running way too lean — maybe that wideband is working after all.

There’s a noticeably loud whooshing sound from the intake, but that’s just the slot above the throttle blade where the idle air motor sucks in air. I haven’t noticed any other vacuum leaks by casual inspection.

I also tried pointing my open but unlit MAP torch right into the intake and the engine revs didn’t change at all, which seems sort of odd. I was under the impression that the gas should make the engine rev up, and that’s how people find vacuum leaks.

I put my fingers around the obvious connections and couldn’t feel any suction. I can do a more thorough check next weekend.

Thanks.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I would try to open the throttle plates a little with curb idle screw to see if you can smooth out the idle.

[FABombjoy]

Trust the wideband. Add fuel and flatten the VE table in the idle region. Maybe post your msq for multiple second opinions.

[jangell]

Dave: I'll have to look for a curb idle screw. I didn't notice one, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one there.

FABomjoy: I'll try adding fuel (which I assume I do with the VE; I'm still figuring this out) and flattening the idle area next weekend, and post the resulting MSQ then. The one I'm using now is basically at defaults, but Josh's MSQ had pretty much identical results. The fact that the driver's side exhaust is 3x hotter than the passenger side is still perplexing, though, and it seems like adjusting the VE table isn't going to do much for that, will it?

Thanks!

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

There are several reasons half the engine is running differently and we could at least rule out the tune with the msq file.

Off the top of my head a few reasons could be:
-wiring differences between injector bank A and B (flipped polarity on half?)
-different injector characterization for A/B
-incorrect cam timing (which you alluded to)
-intake gasket - not familiar enough with the 3.0 intake to know if this is a thing like the fairly split manifold on the 2.8
-plugged/imbalanced exhaust
Probably more than this.

[opethmike]

Have you hugged the car?

[jangell]

There are several reasons half the engine is running differently and we could at least rule out the tune with the msq file.

Off the top of my head a few reasons could be:
-wiring differences between injector bank A and B (flipped polarity on half?)
-different injector characterization for A/B
-incorrect cam timing (which you alluded to)
-intake gasket - not familiar enough with the 3.0 intake to know if this is a thing like the fairly split manifold on the 2.8
-plugged/imbalanced exhaust
Probably more than this.

Thanks!

The injector A/B bank wiring occurred to me last night -- I'll definitely check that this weekend. Ironically, with the throttle open slightly (I mean, before I fixed it so the cable closes it all the way this weekend), the passenger side was double the temperature of the driver's side -- so, the opposite of what I'm seeing now.

I'm not sure what you mean by different injector characterization.

Still trying to avoid having to check the cam timing, so I'll do everything else first. :)

The 3.0L intake manifold is a of a single main body with arched pipes that go to each cylinder. I'd probably have had to screw up the gasket on all three pipes on that side to have such a constant temperature there. That's not to say I didn't do that, but it does seem less likely.

The exhaust is pretty balanced -- short pipes from the headers to the cats, then slightly longer pipes to a dual in/dual out muffler. Admittedly, I'm using the muffler in a non-conventional manner (they intended both inlets to be on the same side; I have half of the engine using the "top" of the muffler while the other uses the "bottom"). Pipes are all about the same length. It's definitely not plugged on either side.

I'll check on the wiring, and if all else fails, the cam timing, this weekend.

Thanks again

-- Joe

[dn010]

I know you're trying to avoid it, but I'd start by pulling your valve covers and seeing if the valve timing is in order. I'd imagine the 3.0 book should have valve timing specs as far as when the intake / exhaust valves should open and close per side. That should save you from removing the timing cover if you don't need to and will also rule out mechanical error instead of software.

[jangell]

I know you're trying to avoid it, but I'd start by pulling your valve covers and seeing if the valve timing is in order. I'd imagine the 3.0 book should have valve timing specs as far as when the intake / exhaust valves should open and close per side. That should save you from removing the timing cover if you don't need to and will also rule out mechanical error instead of software.

Yup, the manual says this:


Intake Valve Open: 14 degrees BTDC (before top dead center)
Intake Valve Closes: 48 degrees ABDC (after bottom dead center)
Exhaust Valve Opens: 56 degrees BBDC (before bottom dead center)
Exhaust Valve Closes: 12 degrees ATDC (after top dead center)
Valve Overlap: 26 degrees
Intake Duration: 252 degrees
Exhaust Duration: 248 degrees


I'm guessing I can test cylinder 1 by rotating the engine to 14 degrees (based on the gauge on the timing cover) and seeing if the intake valve has just closed, right? And I could estimate the position of the other cylinders by counting teeth on the crank pulley gear, I imagine.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Josh]

^ you are on the right track here checking the timing.
This very much seems like a mechanical problem, not a tune problem.

Please eliminate all mechanical issues before you start modifing the tune, or you may just make the situation worse.
But like Luke said trust the wideband.

[FABombjoy]

I'm not sure what you mean by different injector characterization.
Injector deadtime curves. It's possible to have accidentally set a different curve for bank A and B.


This very much seems like a mechanical problem, not a tune problem.
It does, especially since the 3.0 is even fire (megasquirt does not warn you if setting up oddfire ignition without cam input). Was just hoping to find some magic in the msq first!

[Josh]

Im pretty confident that the tune is not causing this issue. I have about 30,000 kms on it after all. Not to say it wont need some tweaking, but nothing this major.

[jangell]

Here's my MSQ and the last log I made on Sunday. The MSQ is one I built myself before I got Josh's (I've attached it as well). I did a side-by-side comparison of his and mine a while back and there are some minor differences, but they're overall pretty close. I decided to go with my tune for now, although when I did run Josh's it ran smoother. It's entirely possible I screwed up something. At one point I had the displacement wrong (I think I typed 2795 instead of 2975 or something like that), for example.

My Tune: 57335
Latest Log: 57336

Josh's Tune: 57334

-- Joe

[jangell]

I took the valve cover off today, and completely failed at reading the engine rotation vs the valve position. It felt like I was reading 60 degrees off for TDC on cylinder 1, but I can’t decide if I’m just reading it wrong or if it has something to do with the BAC EDIS firing order Josh set up due to the position of the crank sensor relative to the missing tooth on the crank pulley gear (unlikely, although I did have to take a timing gun reading from cylinder 3 due to this rotated firing order, which does perfectly match what TunerStudio is reporting). I’m pretty sure the mark on the pulley is right, though, and I just don’t know what I’m doing.

Anyway, I decided to look at something I did understand, the position of the two marked links on the timing chain relative to the mark on the can sprocket. That does appear to be one tooth off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180721/62efe78e6c13fafc8936a806285fae88.jpg

I guess I’ll take the timing cover off tomorrow and redo the valve timing.

Thanks

— Joe

[Josh]

Glad you figured something out. Not surprised with the result.
Does it look like the chain was rubbing on something?

[jangell]

I think that might be Right Stuff that seeped in from the timing cover gasket.

A bit more concerning is that when I pulled the timing cover this morning, a piece of metal fell out. It seems to be part of one of the bottom driver’s side screw holes for the timing cover, in the lower crankcase (so, it’s from the 2.8L engine)

I think I can get away with this by filling the screw hole with Right Stuff before I insert the screw. There are plenty of threads left to firmly hold the bolt (I tested it), and there are so many screws on the timing cover that it seems like it should hold. I’ll have to watch for oil leaks just the same.

Seems I have bad luck with engine castings.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/e132d15e6a3e06dc450cc8fc51646331.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/fa14eac019a7e70a43ccb78c0de78462.jpg

— Joe

[jangell]

Actually, I think those scrapes on the chains are form the chain guides from when the oil pump wasn’t working. They seem to line up pretty well.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/43a1e766cd6f5b7bc4f54ec145889700.jpg

I don’t think it’ll be a problem with the now-working oil pump.

— Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

That looks like a crack on that black casting bottom right of your last photo.

[jangell]

That looks like a crack on that black casting bottom right of your last photo.

Sorry, I’m not quite sure where you’re looking. I don’t see a crack in the photo, and I don’t see anything on the engine itself. I do still have to scrape off the gasket; is that what you’re seeing, or am I just looking in the wrong place?

The 2.8L lower crankcase isn’t available anymore, so I’m not really sure what I’ll do if that’s junk. Maybe I’ll ask Josh how to do an LS4 swap. :)

Thanks

— Joe

[jangell]

Also, that “off by a tooth” photo I took isn’t looking at the right mark on the cam, and I’m fairly sure the position of the chain is irrelevant if you don’t know the position of the keyway on the crank as well. Point being, my sprocket photo proved nothing. I’m sill redoing the timing, now that I have everything apart. It certainly won’t hurt, but I’ll have to wait until next weekend to put it back together, when I have new gaskets.

Correct mark aligned with the timing chain attached. The other mark is in the lower right.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/999812c5ccf94e0ca6f5e7edbe6986b5.jpg

— Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

Sorry, I’m not quite sure where you’re looking. I don’t see a crack in the photo, and I don’t see anything on the engine itself. I do still have to scrape off the gasket; is that what you’re seeing, or am I just looking in the wrong place?

The 2.8L lower crankcase isn’t available anymore, so I’m not really sure what I’ll do if that’s junk. Maybe I’ll ask Josh how to do an LS4 swap. :)

Thanks

— Joe

It may just be the photo. I was looking at the black (think it's your motor mount) right where the large bolt goes into the engine block.

[opethmike]

To do an LS4 swap, simply open wallet and let money fall out.

[dn010]

How do your timing chain guides look?

[jangell]

Sorry for the late replies:


To do an LS4 swap, simply open wallet and let money fall out.

I might as well just go electric then. :) I was hoping to wait another 10 years for enough junked Teslas, Volts, etc to be able to get the parts cheaper and have a better source of conversion guides to draw from (for any car, not just the DMC), though.

-- Joe

[jangell]

How do your timing chain guides look?

The chain guides themselves look fine. The timing tensioner (the large flat surface that the spring-loaded tensioner pushes towards the chain, not the spring-loaded assembly itself) did have some light grooves in it, but they seemed usable, so I just put them back in (that, and RockAuto didn't have any replacements).

-- Joe

[jangell]

This weekend I got everything re-timed and put everything back together, and had just enough time left over to start the car up. I forgot how long it takes to clean up the mating surface to install the new gaskets.

First, the car runs notably smoother. The AFR is still high at 18-19, but that's down from where we before (I think anything over 20 is "out of range"). So way too lean, but at least it's moving in the right direction. It was idling around 900 RPM; taking a way fuel brought it down a little, but of course brought the AFR up as well. I didn't try tinkering with the advance table, which was sitting at about 14.4.

Another unscientific test was just putting my hand behind the exhaust and feeling the pulse from each tailpipe. There was a pretty steady series of pulses from each side (so, all the cylinders were probably firing), and they felt about the same temperature (as much as you can tell temperature from your hands).

The IR thermometer reported more similar readings on both sides, although the passenger side was still a bit cooler than the driver's side (200s vs 300s). It wasn't nearly as cool as it was before, though.

I've attached the Tunerstudio log. This uses the same tune as last time. The movement of the TPS is interesting, since that suggests the throttle is opening as a side effect of engine vacuum, I think... I wonder what would happen if I held that closed.

I had the vacuum gauge hooked up, but I forgot to actually look at it, which is annoying. Next weekend I'll see what that reads, and I'll hunt for vacuum leaks.

One thing that occurred to me: if the idle air motor isn't working, would that account for the very high AFR? I can hear a strong suction sound from part of the throttle where the idle air motor intake is (it's a slot just above the throttle plate), but I don't actually know if that's normal or not. I spent way too much time figuring out the idle air motor wiring, but that doesn't mean I did it correctly.

Thanks!

-- Joe

TunerStudio log: 57560

[FABombjoy]

I still feel like a Megasquirt noob but here's what I see:

-Very lean. More fuel. Now.

-MAP seems high for idle on stock cams (I'm around 40kpa). Add fuel.

-May not be an issue: Compared to the 2.8 you have a practically 2 dimensional spark table. The DMC 2.8 distributor runs a lot more advance at low load/high RPM. I know nothing of the 3.0 spark requirements though.

-There isn't an idle landing zone in the spark table so your advance number dance up and down while in an idle state which contributes to unstable idle.

-Same with VE. For example, in the 65KPA row it goes 63-60-65-58-60 which isn't realistic. VE generally goes from low to high then back down unless you have a big turbo, variable intake runners, VTEC, etc.

-Your TPS signal increases from 0 to 9% even when the engine isn't running which is bizarre. Seems like a grounding/electrical issue rather than vacuum related. According to the logs your TPS increases 15 percent while running which you should be able to physically see at the cable pulley.
With the cockamamie throttle linkage on the 2.8, if you don't have the stops set correctly your TPS will drift as the assembly heats up, but what would cause such an increase with your setup while not even running?

-You have noise in your sensors. CLT and MAT should be very linear but have some little spikes in them. Batt V shows as low as 6.3 during cranking. By contrast I go from 12 -> 10.9 during cranking.

I can get the clunky 2.8 to idle +/- 20RPM so you should be able to do just as well with with 3.0 once the numbers are good and wiring checks out!

[dn010]

Seems like a grounding/electrical issue rather than vacuum related.

+1

[jangell]

I still feel like a Megasquirt noob but here's what I see:

-Very lean. More fuel. Now.

-MAP seems high for idle on stock cams (I'm around 40kpa). Add fuel.


I'll do that on Saturday. A question, though: Won't that cause the RPMs to shoot up? How would I get it down to 790 RPM once I get the AFR to 14.7? Adjust the timing advance table?


-May not be an issue: Compared to the 2.8 you have a practically 2 dimensional spark table. The DMC 2.8 distributor runs a lot more advance at low load/high RPM. I know nothing of the 3.0 spark requirements though.

I'm not entirely sure what I'd look for in the manual to figure out the spark requirements. I couldn't even find what the idle timing was supposed to be, and ~14 is just what the generated table happened to be. The manual mostly just says that it was "set at the factory" and that it's not adjustable, which isn't very helpful.


-There isn't an idle landing zone in the spark table so your advance number dance up and down while in an idle state which contributes to unstable idle.

I don't think I've actually looked at the spark table before, and am just using the initial generated table. I really should add a 790 RPM column both there and in the VE table for the actual idle speed, which I think is what you mean by an idle landing zone, right?


-Same with VE. For example, in the 65KPA row it goes 63-60-65-58-60 which isn't realistic. VE generally goes from low to high then back down unless you have a big turbo, variable intake runners, VTEC, etc.!

This is mostly an auto-generated table. I might have boosted the first column to try to recover from stalls at idle (read about that somewhere once). I should probably re-generate the table to remove any other odd changes I may have made when I was trying to get it work a few months back when there were more non-software-related issues.


-Your TPS signal increases from 0 to 9% even when the engine isn't running which is bizarre. Seems like a grounding/electrical issue rather than vacuum related. According to the logs your TPS increases 15 percent while running which you should be able to physically see at the cable pulley.
With the cockamamie throttle linkage on the 2.8, if you don't have the stops set correctly your TPS will drift as the assembly heats up, but what would cause such an increase with your setup while not even running?

I'll actually look at the throttles on Saturday -- I didn't notice the TPS readings until I looked at the logs when I got home. To be clear, the TPS is just another line on the graph at this point -- I'm not using it to control fuel, and am just relying on the MAP at the moment.

I'll check the grounding on Saturday as well.


-You have noise in your sensors. CLT and MAT should be very linear but have some little spikes in them. Batt V shows as low as 6.3 during cranking. By contrast I go from 12 -> 10.9 during cranking.

Now that's interesting. I have the dedicated return wire that is common to all the sensors (wiring diagram here, if you're interested: http://www.tmproductions.com/s/DeLorean-EFI-Wiring.pdf ). I also added a ground bus that runs from the headlights to the engine block; the grounds for MS is connected to the end of this bus at the engine block (mostly because this is Josh's harness, and that's how it was set up; I made my own diagram because I had to put on the DB37 connector, and I wanted to make sure I did everything correctly).

I haven't had to look into noise issues before, so I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. I'm guessing culprits could be wires that run too close to the coils, maybe? The VR sensor is a shielded cable, but everything else is just simple wires. It's interesting (well, to me) that that MAT and CLT spikes don't seem to be at the same time. Also that TPS is smooth; I'd have expected noise in all of the sensors. Of course, TPS appears to be wildly off anyway.


I can get the clunky 2.8 to idle +/- 20RPM so you should be able to do just as well with with 3.0 once the numbers are good and wiring checks out!

That's encouraging -- hopefully there's just a stupid grounding issue and I can get it cleaned up fairly quickly this weekend.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

I'll do that on Saturday. A question, though: Won't that cause the RPMs to shoot up? How would I get it down to 790 RPM once I get the AFR to 14.7? Adjust the timing advance table?
Good idle is tricky - I would review all of the techniques posted in the MS manuals and forum. You can use timing to control idle but you'll want the IAC to do most of that work.
You do have the ability to set some options under Idle Advance which can allow you to force specific ignition timing at idle, but you'll have to fix TPS to make that reliable.



I'm not entirely sure what I'd look for in the manual to figure out the spark requirements. I couldn't even find what the idle timing was supposed to be, and ~14 is just what the generated table happened to be. The manual mostly just says that it was "set at the factory" and that it's not adjustable, which isn't very helpful.
I generated a table by calculating the curves listed in the DMC factory manual and Volvo greenbooks. Maybe something comparable exists for the even-fire Volvo PRVs? At least as a basis for comparison? Optimal spark tables are built on the dyno, unfortunately.



I don't think I've actually looked at the spark table before, and am just using the initial generated table. I really should add a 790 RPM column both there and in the VE table for the actual idle speed, which I think is what you mean by an idle landing zone, right?
You need a plateau in the table where small changes in RPM don't produce changes in timing, or to configure idle advance settings to do so.



I'll actually look at the throttles on Saturday -- I didn't notice the TPS readings until I looked at the logs when I got home. To be clear, the TPS is just another line on the graph at this point -- I'm not using it to control fuel, and am just relying on the MAP at the moment.
You do have TPS-based accel enrichment. Once you drive the car you'll want TPS to work properly so you can dial in accel enrichment.



Now that's interesting. I have the dedicated return wire that is common to all the sensors (wiring diagram here, if you're interested: http://www.tmproductions.com/s/DeLorean-EFI-Wiring.pdf ). I also added a ground bus that runs from the headlights to the engine block; the grounds for MS is connected to the end of this bus at the engine block (mostly because this is Josh's harness, and that's how it was set up; I made my own diagram because I had to put on the DB37 connector, and I wanted to make sure I did everything correctly).

I haven't had to look into noise issues before, so I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. I'm guessing culprits could be wires that run too close to the coils, maybe? The VR sensor is a shielded cable, but everything else is just simple wires. It's interesting (well, to me) that that MAT and CLT spikes don't seem to be at the same time. Also that TPS is smooth; I'd have expected noise in all of the sensors. Of course, TPS appears to be wildly off anyway.

I like the diagram! I started in on one and gave up, turning it into an excel spreadsheet instead :D But I was changing it constantly and I have twice the number of things connected -vs- a typical MS setup.

According to the diagram your LC2 is grounded via the sensor return. That should not be connected there and is almost certainly the cause of the drifting value and voltage dips. The wideband heaters are also driven by a PWM which can be ultra noisy (it was in the LC1 and I had to relocate wires just to get it out of my stereo). Move the LC2 ground to a big fatty ground wire and I'll bet a lot of this clears up.

LC2 specs a 5A fuse. That poor, single tiny pin on the DB37 connector has to pass all of that current and handle the sensors too.

The DB37 provided with most MS kits is kind garbage too so that's just too much for it to handle. I tossed mine and installed one of these:
https://b2b.harting.com/ebusiness/en_us/D-SUB-FE-STAMPED-SOLDER-CUP-37-AU2/09672374715
I put these shells on too:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-fci/8655MH3701BLF/609-3132-ND/1851327
But I'm picky :D

[jangell]

Good idle is tricky - I would review all of the techniques posted in the MS manuals and forum. You can use timing to control idle but you'll want the IAC to do most of that work.

You do have the ability to set some options under Idle Advance which can allow you to force specific ignition timing at idle, but you'll have to fix TPS to make that reliable.

I'll settle for a halfway passable idle. :)

But I shouldn't be idling at 2000 RPM, which is what I feel like I'll be at once I increase the fuel to get to an AFR of 14.7:1. Barring a massive vacuum leak, is adjusting the advance timing how I would bring that down again? Or is this not worth discussing until I've fixed the sensor noise and get the AFR down?


I generated a table by calculating the curves listed in the DMC factory manual and Volvo greenbooks. Maybe something comparable exists for the even-fire Volvo PRVs? At least as a basis for comparison? Optimal spark tables are built on the dyno, unfortunately.

I have the Monaco Service Manual and the Engine Student Reference Book, since at the time I was more interested in how to rebuild the engine. I don't have the green book for the 3.0L, but I do for some 2.8L components. You don't happen to know what the pages are in the DMC/Volvo manuals for the 2.8L engine are, would you? Just looking at those will help me figure out what I'm looking for in the 3.0L manuals (and which manual to get in the first place).


You need a plateau in the table where small changes in RPM don't produce changes in timing, or to configure idle advance settings to do so.

Ah, I see now. So like two columns at, say, 780 and 800, with the same values in their rows, so that timing is consistent around 790 RPM? I'll look into setting that up once I get the AFR down to something reasonable.


You do have TPS-based accel enrichment. Once you drive the car you'll want TPS to work properly so you can dial in accel enrichment.

Huh; I thought I had that off (or had the settings configured so that it was effectively off). I mean, I know I can use it, but I thought I was just using MAP for now.

I wasn't clear on if MAP or TPS was preferred. I remember reading something suggesting that MAP was fine unless you really want to tweak things, in which case TPS is more useful, but I can't remember where I saw that now. Initially I just want to remove variables by disabling TPS.


I like the diagram! I started in on one and gave up, turning it into an excel spreadsheet instead :D But I was changing it constantly and I have twice the number of things connected -vs- a typical MS setup.

I decided to go representative instead of abstract for readability. I spent way too much time on that. :) It's based on Josh's original diagram, but done over with vector graphics and notes so I understand why things are where they are. Using vector graphics make it fairly easy to change as needed. I also have a label printer and label basically every wire I touch.


According to the diagram your LC2 is grounded via the sensor return. That should not be connected there and is almost certainly the cause of the drifting value and voltage dips. The wideband heaters are also driven by a PWM which can be ultra noisy (it was in the LC1 and I had to relocate wires just to get it out of my stereo). Move the LC2 ground to a big fatty ground wire and I'll bet a lot of this clears up.

LC2 specs a 5A fuse. That poor, single tiny pin on the DB37 connector has to pass all of that current and handle the sensors too.

Ah -- I didn't realize that, but it makes sense now that you mention it. I think I just lumped the LC2 in with "sensors" and thought I should hook it up there without realizing just how much current it draws. I'll make that change first thing on Saturday. Thanks!

I had a fun problem early on where the MS would fail to burn settings, but would mostly seem to work. Turns out the main power wire to MS had come off, and it was leaching just enough power through some of the other pins (possibly the RS-232 to the laptop, even), but it wasn't enough power to do anything halfway demanding. It was amazingly obvious once I finally tracked it down.


The DB37 provided with most MS kits is kind garbage too so that's just too much for it to handle. I tossed mine and installed one of these:
https://b2b.harting.com/ebusiness/en_us/D-SUB-FE-STAMPED-SOLDER-CUP-37-AU2/09672374715
I put these shells on too:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-fci/8655MH3701BLF/609-3132-ND/1851327
But I'm picky :D

My immediate goal is to just get it running. I have a few other updates I'd like to do, but first things first. :) I'd like this conversion to last 5-15 years, at which point I'm hoping that there will be enough junked electric cars and enough DIY electric conversions of various vehicles that there will be a kind of MegaSquirt-like community that will make it relatively straight-forward to convert to electric drive. It seems so much simpler in many ways, once you get around how to actually mount the electric motor in the car and where to put all the batteries... But I'm quite happy to run a gas engine for a while longer yet, until such a conversion becomes more affordable and somewhat more straight-forward, and something fatal happens to this engine/transmission.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

But I shouldn't be idling at 2000 RPM, which is what I feel like I'll be at once I increase the fuel to get to an AFR of 14.7:1. Barring a massive vacuum leak, is adjusting the advance timing how I would bring that down again? Or is this not worth discussing until I've fixed the sensor noise and get the AFR down?
You still have IAC open 40 steps at full warm so you can further close the IAC valve. You could also enable closed loop idle control and just specific the RPM you want and see if it works off the bat.



You don't happen to know what the pages are in the DMC/Volvo manuals for the 2.8L engine are, would you? Just looking at those will help me figure out what I'm looking for in the 3.0L manuals (and which manual to get in the first place).
DMC manual specifies the advance by degrees somewhere near the ignition section (?) The Volvo ignition greenbook TP31397-1 has the curve for the OEM distributor (and a few other B27x and B28x motors) but is too old for your engine. Since the 3.0 was totally ECU controlled there is really no reason to have published the curves like this as a mechanic wasn't going to do anything useful with the data. To obtain the original spark map you would have to reverse engineer it from the OEM ECU or measure it somehow. Maybe you could find that data outside of the DMC world.



I wasn't clear on if MAP or TPS was preferred. I remember reading something suggesting that MAP was fine unless you really want to tweak things, in which case TPS is more useful
Either will work, but from what I've read TPS is preferred. It will be a better gauge of your intention. Otherwise the ECU has to watch for changes in MAP which will lag your actual foot.



I had a fun problem early on where the MS would fail to burn settings, but would mostly seem to work. Turns out the main power wire to MS had come off, and it was leaching just enough power through some of the other pins (possibly the RS-232 to the laptop, even), but it wasn't enough power to do anything halfway demanding. It was amazingly obvious once I finally tracked it down.
I had a fun problem where I accidentally hosed the firmware which caused the injectors to lock open w/ fuel pump running. First time I've ever had to siphon an intake manifold. The response was basically, "meh, first time this has ever been reported. You're more expendable than the time it would take to fix"


My immediate goal is to just get it running. I have a few other updates I'd like to do, but first things first. :) I'd like this conversion to last 5-15 years, at which point I'm hoping that there will be enough junked electric cars and enough DIY electric conversions of various vehicles that there will be a kind of MegaSquirt-like community that will make it relatively straight-forward to convert to electric drive.
That would be fun, especially fast charge becomes a reality. With a gas engine we can emphasize its "touring sports car" qualities but that's difficult to claim if you have to make long stops to recharge every few hours :D

[Josh]

If you think there is a issue with your IAC you need to address it. If it is not functioning properly it will be introducing more air than the engine needs and causing it to run lean.

[jangell]

You still have IAC open 40 steps at full warm so you can further close the IAC valve. You could also enable closed loop idle control and just specific the RPM you want and see if it works off the bat.

Cool, thanks. I'll give them a try once I've added fuel and tried to get the AFR down.


DMC manual specifies the advance by degrees somewhere near the ignition section (?) The Volvo ignition greenbook TP31397-1 has the curve for the OEM distributor (and a few other B27x and B28x motors) but is too old for your engine. Since the 3.0 was totally ECU controlled there is really no reason to have published the curves like this as a mechanic wasn't going to do anything useful with the data. To obtain the original spark map you would have to reverse engineer it from the OEM ECU or measure it somehow. Maybe you could find that data outside of the DMC world.

Thanks. That fits with the "this is set at the factory" bits I was seeing in the Monaco/Premier manuals.


Either will work, but from what I've read TPS is preferred. It will be a better gauge of your intention. Otherwise the ECU has to watch for changes in MAP which will lag your actual foot.

That makes sense. I know you can use a combination of MAP and TPS, too. I'll read yup on this once I start playing with acceleration enrichment.


I had a fun problem where I accidentally hosed the firmware which caused the injectors to lock open w/ fuel pump running. First time I've ever had to siphon an intake manifold. The response was basically, "meh, first time this has ever been reported. You're more expendable than the time it would take to fix"

Yeah, that's pretty impressively bad. I'm a software developer, so I kinda get where they're coming from (extremely rare case that has never been reported in two decades or so), but I don't work on stuff that can get people killed if something goes wrong. You'd think they might just add a maximum injector open time to avoid the risk of that kind of problem.


That would be fun, especially fast charge becomes a reality. With a gas engine we can emphasize its "touring sports car" qualities but that's difficult to claim if you have to make long stops to recharge every few hours :D

Range is a big limitation. I would want at least 250 miles out of an electric car (which is about how far I could go on the 2.8L engine). It seems most electric conversions are under 100 miles -- enough to tool around town and get to/from work, but not enough to, visit my parents on the other side of the next state. I feel like you could pretty well pack the engine bay with lithium ion batteries if you didn't mind basically taking apart a Tesla battery sled and relocating the cells yourself. I guess you'd have to redo it every decade or so, but hopefully we'll get better battery tech at some point and you'll need fewer batteries, or get greater range.

I also do wonder about how a DIY conversion would connect to a fast charger, though. Probably have to borrow a few extra parts from another car to make that work...

-- Joe

[jangell]

If you think there is a issue with your IAC you need to address it. If it is not functioning properly it will be introducing more air than the engine needs and causing it to run lean.

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I did test the IAC when I put everything together. Here's a video of me running the test, then realizing that the pintle isn't actually secured in any meaningful way: https://youtu.be/VQgLUD9oGJ8

Luckily I had a second IAC.

I'll try and pull it this weekend and see if it's still moving correctly. Maybe a wire got damaged or something. Or something in the software isn't set up right, and it's not actually doing anything.

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

Yeah, that's pretty impressively bad. I'm a software developer, so I kinda get where they're coming from (extremely rare case that has never been reported in two decades or so), but I don't work on stuff that can get people killed if something goes wrong. You'd think they might just add a maximum injector open time to avoid the risk of that kind of problem.
The firmware was legit corrupt, so you can't fully hold the device responsible for what happens when booting up in a random state. I suspect it booted far enough to engage the pump and purge the injectors and then crash. That suggests that firmware should self-checksum its startup routine and halt on failure.

And, if the firmware loader first executed a program that resets outputs to low before starting a flash, that would have prevented a lot of mess too.

All due to leaving keys in ignition and on all night. I can't recall what captured my attention after getting home causing me to forget my keys, but I know what captured it for 4+ hours the next day!



That's exactly what I'm worried about. I did test the IAC when I put everything together. Here's a video of me running the test, then realizing that the pintle isn't actually secured in any meaningful way: https://youtu.be/VQgLUD9oGJ8
Mind did this until I fixed the wiring. It seemed to work but slowly unscrewed itself. I hooked it up per (what I thought was) the correct way in the megasquirt manual. In the end I just randomized the wires until it started behaving normally during the test mode. MS3 has a mode where it just cycles in and out repeatedly which was a very fast way to get it straight!

[jangell]

Mind did this until I fixed the wiring. It seemed to work but slowly unscrewed itself. I hooked it up per (what I thought was) the correct way in the megasquirt manual. In the end I just randomized the wires until it started behaving normally during the test mode. MS3 has a mode where it just cycles in and out repeatedly which was a very fast way to get it straight!

Ah, now that's interesting. So you're saying that what's going on in my video is not what should be happening. My assumption was that this finding the limits -- that MS extended the pintle all the way to find the end position (by hitting it against the end of whatever hole it's installed in), then retracted it to an "open" position, because the AIC doesn't have any kind of limit sensors in it. I'll make some short jumpers so I can swap wires around and see what I come up with.

I used test mode, manually running it forwards and backwards, but I didn't see a "cycle forever" button. I'll check the software again this weekend.

Thanks!

-- Joe

(I did eventually find the pintle, BTW, but not the spring and one other part that is now probably sitting somewhere in the valley of death.)

[FABombjoy]

Only MS3 may have the cycle mode.

The pintle should cycle back and forth without launching off. I really did just floppy flop wire pairs until I *poof* it was working. I even have a spare IAC too as I was convinced the first was bad.

[Josh]

Only MS3 may have the cycle mode.

The pintle should cycle back and forth without launching off. I really did just floppy flop wire pairs until I *poof* it was working. I even have a spare IAC too as I was convinced the first was bad.

x2.

Seems like the sensor is wired in wrong. I dont know why I ever cut the connector off on the ecu side, it has caused so much confusion on your end. I really apologize for that.

I remember the wiring in the MS documentation to be wrong for two things: The IAC and the coil pack firing order.

[opethmike]

There should also be a throttle stop screw on the throttle body that you can adjust.

[Josh]

There should also be a throttle stop screw on the throttle body that you can adjust.

I already mentioned this but i feel it needs to be re-iterated.

No need to change the tune, sort out all the mechanical and electrical issues first.

[jangell]

x2.

Seems like the sensor is wired in wrong. I dont know why I ever cut the connector off on the ecu side, it has caused so much confusion on your end. I really apologize for that.

I remember the wiring in the MS documentation to be wrong for two things: The IAC and the coil pack firing order.

I'm sure the coil pack firing order is sorted. Don't worry about the connector: having to re-solder that is the only reason I know as much as I do about how MS is wired, and why I have my wiring diagram. If I really wanted plug-and-play I'd have had a shop just swap the engine out for me, and been done years ago. Now I'm getting much closer to having a complete understanding of the car.

-- Joe

[jangell]

I already mentioned this but i feel it needs to be re-iterated.

No need to change the tune, sort out all the mechanical and electrical issues first.

I agree -- the software isn't going to work if the inputs are bad. Thanks again

-- Joe

[jangell]

There should also be a throttle stop screw on the throttle body that you can adjust.

At the moment the throttle are completely closed at idle. I need to look for that screw; I'm sure it's somewhere, but I keep forgetting to look for it. At the moment I seem to have too much air, though, rather than not enough air.

-- Joe

[opethmike]

You don't have too much air; you have too little fuel. Here's what I would do:

Take the IAC 100% out of the equation. You don't NEED it for it to idle correctly; just for it to idle consistently across engine temps. With that out of the way, adjust the throttle stop screw so you're at, say 1,000 RPM or so when stone cold. Play with the warm-up table, adding fuel as necessary to keep it around 12.5 AFR while stone cold, mid 13s until 120 or so, then mid 14s from there until ~185 degrees.

The RPMs will increase as the car gets warmer. That's fine, don't worry about that for now. Wait until the car is fully up to temp (185). Then adjust the throttle stop screw until the car idles around 750-800, depending on your preference.

At this point, there should be NO influence on the fueling from the warm-up table; fueling should be 100% determined by the VE table. All the cells that the car is idling in should be just about the same number. Keep playing with that until you reach a low to mid 14 AFR at idle. You may also have to play a little bit with the throttle stop screw to return the idle speed to desired target.

The whole purpose of this is to get your warmed up idle correct. This accomplishes a few things:

1. You can set the IAC to be closed at fully warmed up idle. You really shouldn't need it at that point.
2. Having the fully warmed up idle sorted out for both idle speed and AFR will allow you to tune the warm-up fueling and the warm-up IAC without chasing your tail.

Basically, don't worry about getting other things sorted out until you have your full warm idle sorted and locked in.

[FABombjoy]

I remember the wiring in the MS documentation to be wrong for two things: The IAC and the coil pack firing order.
That would explain why so many folks seem to have trouble with the stepper IACs.

If need be I can check my own wiring, too.

[opethmike]

I HATE stepper IACs with a passion. Pulse width modulation is just so much more pleasant to deal with.

[FABombjoy]

Ask Mike about his flyin' pintles.

[jangell]

You don't have too much air; you have too little fuel. Here's what I would do:

Take the IAC 100% out of the equation. You don't NEED it for it to idle correctly; just for it to idle consistently across engine temps. With that out of the way, adjust the throttle stop screw so you're at, say 1,000 RPM or so when stone cold. Play with the warm-up table, adding fuel as necessary to keep it around 12.5 AFR while stone cold, mid 13s until 120 or so, then mid 14s from there until ~185 degrees.

The RPMs will increase as the car gets warmer. That's fine, don't worry about that for now. Wait until the car is fully up to temp (185). Then adjust the throttle stop screw until the car idles around 750-800, depending on your preference.

At this point, there should be NO influence on the fueling from the warm-up table; fueling should be 100% determined by the VE table. All the cells that the car is idling in should be just about the same number. Keep playing with that until you reach a low to mid 14 AFR at idle. You may also have to play a little bit with the throttle stop screw to return the idle speed to desired target.

The whole purpose of this is to get your warmed up idle correct. This accomplishes a few things:

1. You can set the IAC to be closed at fully warmed up idle. You really shouldn't need it at that point.
2. Having the fully warmed up idle sorted out for both idle speed and AFR will allow you to tune the warm-up fueling and the warm-up IAC without chasing your tail.

Basically, don't worry about getting other things sorted out until you have your full warm idle sorted and locked in.

I'd been so focused on not having the cats glow, that I forgot that the whole point was getting the system up to temperature so that I can tune the idle when warm. Having this as a guide will help a lot -- a process to follow is definitely what I need. The MS startup guide one is great, but it covers so many possible configurations that it can be easy to get lost (I probably should have made a new doc out of the relevant parts or something).

Also, I'm pretty sure my IAC is wide open, given how loud the "whooshing" sound into the slot above the throttle plate is, and thus where all the extra air is coming from, since I'm fairly sure my throttles are completely closed right now. I'll fix that wiring and the LC2 ground first thing this weekend, then boost the fuel, get everything warmed up, and tune the idle.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[opethmike]

Don't forget to also hug the car.

[Josh]

Don't forget to also hug the car.

Follow Mike's directions carefully.

He taught me how to tune a several years ago, got me through some tough binds. We tuned my car from hobbling around town to cross country travel in a week.

[jangell]

Back at the garage today.

I checked the LC2, and apparently my wiring diagram is wrong, and the ground wire goes through the bulkhead connector to the engine ground bundle. So it is properly grounded, and not connected to the signal return wire.

This led me to trace the ground and signal return wires back to the DB37 connector. I seem to have taken... liberties with the ground pins. Sensor return isn’t on the right pin, and the pins I did connect to aren’t the ones labeled “power grounds” in the manual. So I’ll be resoldering those now. I’m not sure how much it matters, but I’m betting the ground traces on the power ground pins are more robust than the other pins.

I have no excuse for sensor ground being on the wrong pin.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180804/a47d67b846f33b487572c457a1c2ee37.jpg

Also, now that I’m looking at the MS grounds, I could have saved myself some trouble by connecting them to the parcel shelf ground post instead of running it through the bulkhead to the engine, but it’s already wired up so I’m just going to leave it.


I’m just starting on the IAC, but I found that one of the wires had pulled out at the bulkhead connector. I’m not sure if this just happened (most likely) or if it has been broken for a while. I still need to pull the IAC from the engine and run a test on it, which is what I’m going to start doing one I fix the MS grounds.

Thanks again!

— Joe

[jangell]

I lied — sensor return is wired correctly. I just wired four of the other grounds to adjacent ground pins instead of the power ground pins for good reason. So I’ll just move those to the right pins. I’m guessing that’s where all the noise is coming from.

— Joe

[jangell]

Looks like the IAC is wired up correctly. I was able to move it back and forth with the TunerStudio test controls. I think the problem was that I didn’t have the IAC’s initial position correct before I installed it. Once I ran the test such that the motor retracts as far as possible in the Run position, and then out to the point that it correctly seals the intake in the Home position, everything worked much better.

The AFR is now a much more reasonable 15-16 with no adjustments. By adding fuel I was able to get it into the 14.3-14.9. I kept tinkering while it warmed up (so, the VE table is a bit of a mess now). At 185 degrees or so I adjust the throttle set screw, which I finally found under the arm. Annoyingly, you have to open the throttles all the way to get it adjust it, so I had to turn off the car and each test. The idle is seeking a little in the mid-700s to mid-800s for now.

Obviously I attribute all success to hugging the car. :)

I have a coolant leak I need to fix before I go further; I’m going to do that tomorrow. I think the leak is at one of the pipes near the firewall under the intake manifold (one of those two big pipes), so I’m hoping I can figure out how to replace the hose clamp without needing to drain the coolant system first.

I don’t think I’ve fixed my sensor noise issue, unfortunately. The log still shows the TPS creeping up, and the CLT and MAT are still a bit noisy. While I set the idle at 185 degrees CLT as read from TunerStudio, the DMC temp gauge is only showing about 160, although I don’t know if the DMC gauge is just not very accurate or what. CLT when cold is about right at 79 degrees, roughly the same as theambient air temp.

On another note, oil pressure is good. Not sure why the RPM meter isn’t working, but I can worry about that later.

Also, the engine appears to be backfiring — at least I think that sound is backfiring. It’s an occasional pop from the exhaust. Happens every few minutes, sometimes a few seconds apart. I’m not sure what to do about that. I’ll post a video of one of the pops when I’m at a computer again.

Thanks!

— Joe

[jangell]

As promised, here's a video of the popping from the exhaust (pop is at ~10 seconds). The ducting I'm using to try to vent the fumes out of the garage are masking any possible flame, so I don't know if there's a flame or not. This took quite a few tries to record; I'd start recording, and nothing would happen for a minute or two. I'd turn the camera off, and then it would pop again.

This happened at a range of RPMS from 650 to 1000 (which is only range I ran in today). I didn't try revving the engine.

https://youtu.be/4YtrZ0L1YBA

Also, the engine is idling a bit rough, in that you can see it visibly shaking around. It's been so long since I had a working Delorean that I don't remember how smooth it should idle. Of course, the idle is still seeking and it's not even remotely tuned, so hopefully that will go away as I tune it?

I've also attached logs from today. I forgot to start logging before the first start, unfortunately.

Thanks!

-- Joe

Warm up and a few stops and starts while adjusting the throttle screw: 57683
First log, still cold, but after ignition: 57682

[opethmike]

Shouldn't shake that much. I'd do that unplug & re-plug one coil pack/plug wire at a time test to see if a cylinder is misfiring. That's what it seems like to me.

[jangell]

I’ll do that after I fix the coolant leak and put back together some of the back of the car. Thanks!

— Joe

[FABombjoy]

Megasquirt grounding is enigmatic. Much of the top row is actually grounds - they have the sensor return separate to put some physical space in there. Pins 1, 2, 7-19 are all ground.

I agree with mike on the shaking. Misfire = fuel in exhaust = random pops.

AFRs are better at the end of the log but the RPM instability suggests a physical problem not a software one. Vac leak, ignition problem, etc. Idle is mid 600s and stepper is at 19 which suggests you want more base idle. It's probably struggling at 600 RPM which exacerbates whatever issue is present. My stepper IAC is at max flow around 140 steps so I shoot for as close to 0 at hot idle as possible, which gives me lots of headroom for cold high idle. I have my cold idle target as high as 1400 RPM tapering to 950 at 175 CLT. The 2.8 is clearly a different beast but I found this give a very smooth, modern-style warmup and avoids a particular RPM resonance that gives ya the tummy jigglies during warms up. Prob not an issue on the 3.0. I just wanted to type "tummy jigglies"

Also check your TPS to be sure that it actually works. I pulled out my hair chasing down a TPS issue that I was positive was caused by my wiring. After ruling everything difficult out I tested the TPS. It was bad.

[jangell]

Megasquirt grounding is enigmatic. Much of the top row is actually grounds - they have the sensor return separate to put some physical space in there. Pins 1, 2, 7-19 are all ground.

I think I figured that ground is ground, so it didn't match which pins I used. I'm not sure how true that is here without looking the board, but it's wired up per spec now. But there's still that noise for some reason.


I agree with mike on the shaking. Misfire = fuel in exhaust = random pops.

Yeah... so it turns out I swapped the cylinder 4 and 5 coils when I re-isntalled them after I did the valve re-timing. It was very obvious, since I have labels on everything (I mean, you'd think I would have noticed when I put them in) -- I just didn't know enough to check it again until you guys pointed out that it had to be a spark problem. I haven't actually tested it yet since I spent the deal dealing with that coolant leak, but I'm betting that fixes the shaking and popping.

As for the coolant leak, it's coming from the connection at the "T" to the hot water valve, on the hose where the "T" goes to the engine. After ruining some hose clamps trying to get it tight enough (and partially covering myself in coolant), I finally removed the hose and measured everything. It seems the engine is 3/4", but the "T" is 5/8". I'm guessing the clamps can't compress the slightly-too-large hose enough to keep it from leaking. It seems that Dayco 87613 will do the trick -- a 1' long 3/4" to 5/8" hose meant for a Mitsubishi. I have no idea why my "T" is smaller than it seems it should be, but whatever. I'll install the new hose next weekend and see if it works.

I did get the back end of the car on while I waited for some of the coolant to drain, so I'm closer to being ready to drive it once it idles properly. I still have a few other small things to do first (refill the A/C, which I hope to do once the idle is good, then re-install the passenger seat, button up the parcel shelf, put the shifter back on, mount the engine cover and louvers, stuff like that), and then I can take it out on the road and immediately stall in the middle of a busy intersection. :)


AFRs are better at the end of the log but the RPM instability suggests a physical problem not a software one. Vac leak, ignition problem, etc. Idle is mid 600s and stepper is at 19 which suggests you want more base idle. It's probably struggling at 600 RPM which exacerbates whatever issue is present. My stepper IAC is at max flow around 140 steps so I shoot for as close to 0 at hot idle as possible, which gives me lots of headroom for cold high idle. I have my cold idle target as high as 1400 RPM tapering to 950 at 175 CLT. The 2.8 is clearly a different beast but I found this give a very smooth, modern-style warmup and avoids a particular RPM resonance that gives ya the tummy jigglies during warms up. Prob not an issue on the 3.0. I just wanted to type "tummy jigglies"

Speaking of vacuum, I still have the gauge hooked up, and I still keep forgetting to check it. I'll look next week, but at this point I'm guessing that it's probably good.

For the IAC curve, at the moment I just stole the one from Josh's tune, which is set to 180 at max flow and 0 when fully warmed up. The engine was running at 600 RPM mostly because I was more interested in not glowing the cats than I was getting to 790 RPM (which I know Mike said to go for anyway). I would have adjusted the throttle screw earlier, but it's under the throttle arm, so I have to turn off the car to adjust it (that, or rev the engine really high). Hopefully with the coils in the correct holes everything will actually work properly next weekend.

The car is loud enough that I"m not sure I want to go to 1400 RPM at cold idle, but I might turn on the thing that boosts the RPM when the A/C is on, since that does seem useful. I know modern cars do run the idle higher on cold start, but I"m not actually sure why they do that. Once it's running I may re-install those silencers and see what that does to the noise levels. I didn't notice much of a change when I removed them, but there was a week between when I heard the exhaust with vs. without.


Also check your TPS to be sure that it actually works. I pulled out my hair chasing down a TPS issue that I was positive was caused by my wiring. After ruling everything difficult out I tested the TPS. It was bad.

I calibrated it when I set up TunerStudio, but I haven't looked at it since them. I can take another look next weekend. Thanks!

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

Yeah... so it turns out I swapped the cylinder 4 and 5 coils when I re-isntalled them after I did the valve re-timing.
Bam.


As for the coolant leak, it's coming from the connection at the "T" to the hot water valve, on the hose where the "T" goes to the engine. After ruining some hose clamps trying to get it tight enough (and partially covering myself in coolant), I finally removed the hose and measured everything. It seems the engine is 3/4", but the "T" is 5/8".
Oh man, trying to make the mishmash of hose sizes work was frustrating. If the 3.0 has a 3/4 that further complicates it. Nice that you could find a reducing hose!

I still had the aluminum T on my car and wanted to replace it before it broke. The combo of sizes to bleeder don't exist in anything reasonably priced. I found a manual heater shut off valve at Autozone, removed the valve portion, and soldered a barbed fitting to the top.

57699

[opethmike]

It's not that you MUST go to 800 RPM for your idle; 600-700 is still fine. I just prefer around 800 since I tend to run bigger cams in the engines that I build.

[FABombjoy]

I'd shoot for at least the Chrysler spec for idle speed. If you want to go lower you'll want to consider:
Oil pressure
Coolant circulation / temp
Idle quality with AC and/or full electrical load

If you can get closed loop idle control up and going (should be pretty easy) it'll be much more pleasant under transient idle loading.

[opethmike]

Yeah, gotta watch out for those full loads.

[jangell]

Oh man, trying to make the mishmash of hose sizes work was frustrating. If the 3.0 has a 3/4 that further complicates it. Nice that you could find a reducing hose!

If not for googling about hose clamps and leaks the day before, I wouldn't have realized that such a small difference in hose vs connector size would make it unsealable.

I don't remember if the 2.8L was 3/4" or 5/8", and I can't remember if I replaced the heater hoses at the engine. I did replace a number of hoses, though, so I may have put a 3/4" on there after finding that a 5/8" wouldn't fit. The one on the passenger side seems to mate to the existing DMC pipes without leaking, so at least there's that.


I still had the aluminum T on my car and wanted to replace it before it broke. The combo of sizes to bleeder don't exist in anything reasonably priced. I found a manual heater shut off valve at Autozone, removed the valve portion, and soldered a barbed fitting to the top.

Mine has a plastic "T", but I have no idea where it came from. I had to replace the hot water valve after the vacuum nipple snapped off, but I can't remember if I replaced the "T" as well or just reused what was already there. If I replaced it, it was probably plastic as well, as I would have gotten a new one of the same material as the original.

-- Joe

[jangell]

For idle, I want to go with the 790 spec'ed in the manuals, and boost it when the A/C is on at idle. It's my first time doing an engine control system, so I figure playing it safe is the way to go. :)

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

Do you have any inputs left on MS2 for AC idle-up?

I use MS3 for full AC control but I have the 3X board. The chain of low/high cutoff switches and the dash AC control is now a "call for AC" signal that is connected to the N2O input on the 3X board. I used the N2O input as it's already set up to look for a 12v signal.

MS then decides if conditions are good for AC (is the engine running? Are we not wide open throttle? Are we under 5000 RPM and above 800 RPM?) and triggers the AC compressor.

Next step will be to remove the Fanzilla and build a stagger-start fan control setup that's wired natively for the MS negative fan trigger output.

[jangell]

I think there are four unused pins, labeled Spare 1 (CanH), 2 (CanL), 3 and 4 next to the sensor return pin on the top of the connector. I haven't looked into how to use these yet. My long-term goal is to build some kind of modern automatic climate control based on the desired cabin temperature, at which point I'll be able to directly tell MS to boost. the RPMs from a single signal (I plan on monitoring MS myself through the RS232 port).

In the interim, I was planning on simply the hooking the MS pin up to the wire that runs the A/C compressor. Your setup sounds a lot more interesting than that, though.

I'm running DMC NW's Wings B Cool fans, which draw a lot less power and reduce the need to turn them on one at a time, but I do still have a Fanzilla installed (I think; I've removed enough stuff that I've lost track).

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

Spare 1 / 2 would need to have been jumpered to inputs on the microcontroller. The manuals cover what's necessary, but IIRC the remaining inputs are all 5v level, so you'd have to build a level shifter to monitor the 12V AC input. CanH / CanL are probably already wired for CANbus.

You could look into a CANbus solution for monitoring inputs. If you're headed towards climate control I'm assuming you're familiar with Arduino or other microcontrollers? There are a few CANbus options for Arduino and reading inputs/statuses is pretty easy. That's my next project - Arduino-based CANbus GPS receiver/transmitter and seat heater/cooler control.

[jangell]

I think I have some level shifters around here somewhere, but they're probably 3.3v to 5v. Good to know about those pins.

I wasn't sure if I wanted to use CANbus. It mostly depended on what other hardware I could get for this project, and if it was easier to figure out CAN than just building something from scratch. My eventual goal is to replace the vacuum actuators with electric motors that can be more easily controlled. I've already re-routed the A/C ducting for a double-din radio instead (I did the "put round early-2000s Mitsubishi Eclipse vents in the kneepads" mod that some other people have done, although due to an oversight regarding the depth of the head unit I had to build a new air distributor box so that the radio would seat properly). I'm a bit of a novice at electronics, but I've had success with some of my simpler projects (here are some links: Flux Capacitor (http://www.tmproductions.com/projects-blog/2014/12/20/flux-capacitor-cpu-meter), Washer/Dryer Done (http://www.tmproductions.com/projects-blog/2015/5/25/washerdryer-finished-alert-via-smartthings), Office Lights (http://www.tmproductions.com/projects-blog/2017/3/7/auto-office)). The problem with using off-the-shelf CANbus hardware seem to be figuring out what will actually work for the project, since everything seems to be specialized to particular cars, and may not actually work in my application.

My longer-term goal is indeed to use Arduinos to send data to a dedicated computer, probably a Mac mini (if they keep making them, anyway; rumor is they'll finally update them this year). This would also listen to MegaSquirt on the RS232 (although now I'm wondering if MS can communicate via CANbus...?), since it seems to have a simple serial protocol. Then I'd replace the instrument cluster with a widescreen LCD that displayed relevant information as needed. Climate controls would be another LCD replacing the existing mechanical controls. I might go with Unreal Engine for the UI, since it's very fast to prototype with and I can get some nice effects and load 3D models and stuff like that (previously I'd planned on writing a dedicated macOS app, but I'm starting to think a game engine might be more useful here).

I want to capture as many states as I can -- all the lights on the instrument cluster, gauges (which I'll read from MS where possible, with A2D converters for oil pressure and fuel level), door open states, etc. Ultimately I want to build a model of the DeLorean and have it mirror what is happening with the real car on-screen, which is kind of redundant but would look neat.

And then I can install that electric power steering mod, the electric brake booster mod, and a modern cruise control mod, and tie all that into a Bluetooth-enabled app on my phone to drive the car remotely. ;) And very, very slowly, at very short range. Maybe mock up a big boxy 1980s remote control for that authentic Back to the Future feel.

So I have some plans. :). Been meaning to do some of this for over a decade, but the tech is finally at a point where a lot of it is pretty viable. That, and the important issue of getting the car drivable again is very, very close to being resolved.

-- Joe

[jangell]

I'm assuming that I won't have much trouble getting a good warm idle on Saturday, once I replace that coolant hose and now that I have the coils on the right cylinders.

As I understand it, for warm idle I'll be adjusting the throttle screw and the VE table cells at the idle MAP and RPM to get the AFR where I want. To aid this, I've re-defined one of the columns as the 790 RPM.

As for the ignition timing/spark advance/whatever-it's-called table, do I need to make any changes there? I've adjusted it to have a 500 RPM column and a 790 RPM column, with the intention of setting the 500 RPM one slightly high to recover from possible stalls (I finally found that page that suggested this (https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/idle-tuning-megasquirt/)). I also redefined one of the columns to 790 RPM for good measure. But without knowing what the official timing values should be, is there really anything I can do here? Should I just stick to messing with the VE table and throttle screw, and leave the ignition table alone?


Once I'm idling smoothly at 790 RPM... what do I do next? I guess I take it for a drive around the block? After I fill the A/C system, that is.


Also, for cold starts, I'm currently using open loop with Josh's IAC curve (I have to copy one the warm up enrichment curve still). Should I bother messing around with that once I have a good warm idle, or just switch to closed loop with a target of 790 RPM and be done with it? I know I want to stay at open loop until I have a good warm idle that doesn't seek, but after that, can I just flip the switch to closed loop not think about it anymore? I mean, is there even any tuning you can do to closed loop?

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[FABombjoy]

This would also listen to MegaSquirt on the RS232 (although now I'm wondering if MS can communicate via CANbus...?)
Yep, full two way communication. I have a Perfect Tuning gauge in my car: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/54-universal-gauge.html. It's neato. I also repurposed the Lambda light as a "check engine" light but that's driven right from MS.



I want to capture as many states as I can -- all the lights on the instrument cluster, gauges (which I'll read from MS where possible, with A2D converters for oil pressure and fuel level), door open states, etc. Ultimately I want to build a model of the DeLorean and have it mirror what is happening with the real car on-screen, which is kind of redundant but would look neat.
Sounds like you pretty much need to get CANbus up and going then. Plant various microcontrollers around the car and network them all together. If you want MS to be heavily involved you may need to consider MS3. Unless someone creates an open source body control module, which seems unlikely. I found a longstanding bug in MS3 AC control so there doesn't seem to be a lot of dev focus on creature comfort.



As for the ignition timing/spark advance/whatever-it's-called table, do I need to make any changes there? I've adjusted it to have a 500 RPM column and a 790 RPM column, with the intention of setting the 500 RPM one slightly high to recover from possible stalls (I finally found that page that suggested this (https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/other/idle-tuning-megasquirt/)). I also redefined one of the columns to 790 RPM for good measure. But without knowing what the official timing values should be, is there really anything I can do here?
Timing is best tuned on the dyno - I have no input regarding street tuning timing. Other than reverse-engineering the Chrysler ECU (either the native code or by finding an operational Monaco and logging MAP/RPM/Spark sensors) or finding a map from a [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_PRV_engine#PRV_powered_automobiles"contemporary PRV[/url] you're probably stuck with an auto-generated table.



Once I'm idling smoothly at 790 RPM... what do I do next? I guess I take it for a drive around the block?
It's not a static display, right? :D You'll probably want to bring someone that can at least watch AFRs for you.



I mean, is there even any tuning you can do to closed loop?
MS2 and 3 are probably different here. With CL you set the idle speed -vs- coolant temp. With MS2 you can probably adjust either the PID values, or I know MS3 has a sensitivity slider. The manuals cover tuning of both. I created a tab in Megalogviewer that lets me know how far off the idle target and actual idle are and you can tweak things from there.

[jangell]

Yep, full two way communication.

Now that's interesting. I might have to look into CANbus more closely. I wonder if there's an easy-to-use USB adaptor with Mac drivers and a good API... Although it's pretty easy to open a serial port, I guess.


I have a Perfect Tuning gauge in my car: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/54-universal-gauge.html. It's neato. I also repurposed the Lambda light as a "check engine" light but that's driven right from MS.

That's a pretty neat unit.

How does the "check engine" light work? I mean, what conditions did you set up in MS?


Sounds like you pretty much need to get CANbus up and going then. Plant various microcontrollers around the car and network them all together.

Pretty much my plan, although I was just going to get Arudinos with built-in Bluetooth and have them talk directly to the Mac. Bluetooth mostly saves me the trouble from running wires all around the car to the computer, although I'll obviously still need power and ground to each unit.


If you want MS to be heavily involved you may need to consider MS3. Unless someone creates an open source body control module, which seems unlikely. I found a longstanding bug in MS3 AC control so there doesn't seem to be a lot of dev focus on creature comfort.

I always saw MS as a kind of black box for engine control (as far as the final install with the computer goes) and an input to the computer, with the computer doing most of the creature comfort work work as well as being the primary display. I should have horsepower to burn if Apple actually updates the Mac mini this fall, but even an older model should be more than capable.


Timing is best tuned on the dyno - I have no input regarding street tuning timing. Other than reverse-engineering the Chrysler ECU (either the native code or by finding an operational Monaco and logging MAP/RPM/Spark sensors) or finding a map from a [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_PRV_engine#PRV_powered_automobiles"contemporary PRV[/url] you're probably stuck with an auto-generated table.

I'm fine with the generated table -- it's one less variable to deal with. :)


It's not a static display, right? :D You'll probably want to bring someone that can at least watch AFRs for you.

Just making sure there aren't any pre-drive steps I missed. :)

Should I turn back on acceleration enrichment for this first run? I noticed that it seems to be effectively off for early drives in some of the docs I've read, and I haven't looked into how to tune I yet. I do know that I'll have to be careful not to stall out by slamming on the gas if I don't have it turned on.

I do plan to lean on auto-tune pretty heavily for general tuning, once I'm confident enough to take it on the highway.


MS2 and 3 are probably different here. With CL you set the idle speed -vs- coolant temp. With MS2 you can probably adjust either the PID values, or I know MS3 has a sensitivity slider. The manuals cover tuning of both. I created a tab in Megalogviewer that lets me know how far off the idle target and actual idle are and you can tweak things from there.

I do seem to be able to set an RPM vs CLT curve in MS2 (well, they're not disabled in TunerStudio, anyway). I'll read through the manuals and bug you again once I have warm idle working. :)

Thanks!

-- Joe

[opethmike]

"That's a pretty neat unit."

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!

[jangell]

Not having much luck today. I did a few things in preparation for ignition:

- Replaced that coolant hose that was leaking with the correct sized hose. Of course, now there’s a pinhole leak in the hose to the hot water valve on the other side of the T that I have to fix...

- Lengthened the bank 1 injector wires so that I could run the harness around the throttle body instead of in front of it. The original routing was limited by wire length, and got very close to one of the coils, and wasn’t in the best location with regards to engine heat. In theory this will fix the sensor noise (or at least I can’t see what else would be the problem).

I cranked the car over, but it won’t catch. It just keeps cranking, occasionally firing some cylinders, occasionally backfiring out the throttle intake. TunerStudio shows it sometimes gets out of the cranking range, but almost immediately drops back down. It’s cranking fast enough to try to run (300-600 RPM range). The oil pressure is good as well. Ironically m, the AFR is sitting in the 14s after these tests, too.

I used a test light between each coil and spark plug, and it lit as expected for all cylinders. I also used TunerStudio test mode to make the injectors click on both banks, so I know they’re all working and I didn’t mess up the wiring. I have a fuel pressure gauge hooked up, and it shows proper pressures.

I did forget to re-connect the MAP hose briefly, but plugging that back in had no effect.

I’m stumped. Any idea what I should check next? I can record a video or grab TunerStudio logs of that would help.

Thanks!

— Joe

[FABombjoy]

occasionally backfiring out the throttle intake
Are you 1000% positive the wires are on in the right order?
Timing light shows expected results?


On an unrelated note, I peeked at your wiring diagram again. You have your TPS plug diagrammed like this:

Gnd
Vref
Signal

Seems like these are usually physically layed out as

Gnd
Signal
Vref

Or flip flop gnd/vref if the signal to MS is inverted. Wasn't sure if this was the issue or not.

[opethmike]

Backfire out the intake means that spark plugs are firing when the intake valves are open; that is, 180 degrees of crank rotation opposite from when they should be firing.

[jangell]

I’ll go through the wire again, but I’ve labeled each so I know which one goes to which coil — I’m sure the coils are on the right plugs.

When I lengthened the injector wires, I cut and soldered one at a time so I wouldn’t mix them up (that, and they’re color coded). The passenger side bank all run on the same wires (the orange and the blue ones), so I only had to lengthen two.

I think I found something — while I was pushing on the harness while MS was powered, I could hear the passenger injectors click on, and releasing it clicked them off again. Still narrowing it down. Weirdly, using test mode to repeatedly click the injectors mostly works fine, but when I push on the harness the they stop and won’t start again until I test the other bank and then go back to the first bank.

<sigh> I’ll have to go over this part of the harness again tomorrow; out of time today, but I wouldn’t be surprised if half the injectors not firing is the problem. Oddly, I was once able to get the car to run on two cylinders (very, very badly), but that was one cylinder on each side of the engine (1 and 4 or 2 and 5; it was one of the EDIS banks), which maybe helped a bit.


I finally added a TPS gauge to TunerStudio and noticed that it seems to set at 42.6% and not move as I adjust the throttle. If I disconnect the plug, it changes, presumably since it’s a floating input now.

A multimeter on the connector pins shows 5v, which I think matches what I have wired. The middle pin is at about 1.5v. I think I just swapped the pins in the wiring diagram, but the actual wiring is correct. Also, I checked the colors of the wires in the connector pigtail vs the diagram — I definitely just messed up the diagram. The wire colors, however, are correct.

I pulled the TPS and confirmed that nothing is mechanically broken on it or the throttle, so that’s good.

I the tried using the TPS calibrator, and got only 10 steps from closed to open, so something is definitely wrong there. It changes each time I turn the sensor, too. I’ll see if I have another sensor at home.

Thanks for help!

— Joe

[jangell]

Backfire out the intake means that spark plugs are firing when the intake valves are open; that is, 180 degrees of crank rotation opposite from when they should be firing.

Ok, that seems unlikely then. I mean, it ran last weekend, save for those two cylinders that I’s swapped the coils on. I was getting afterfire from that.

This time I was noticing an occasional pop as it tired to crank. Since I was playing with the throttle, I was able to feel hot air blowing out of the crankcase vent thing (where you put the oil in on the 2.8L). I thought there was something coming up through the intake, but I may have been mistaken. The engine also seemed to want to stop sometimes when it happened. I was wondering if wasted spark could be causing fuel left in the cylinder to burn if a coil didn’t fire for some reason. I’ll check for sure tomorrow, if I fail to fix whatever wiring I screwed up when on the injectors.

If I have the engine in run, can I hand crank the engine with the coils out and watch them fire one by one, or is that far too low RPMs for it to even try firing? It would be nice to be able to see them visually fire in the right order.

Thanks!

— Joe

[jangell]

I think that the wiring problem was a loose ground. I spent a couple of hours today tracking that down, eventually noticing that the MS was rebooting. I redid the ground wires on the engine side of the bulkhead connector to ensure that they are right and secure. Unfortunately, I still can’t start the car.

I also confirmed backfire. With the throttle open a little, I saw an orange flash in the throttle body. So definitely backfiring. I’m still leaning towards wasted spark igniting unburned fuel, rather than the coils being on the wrong plugs. Even so, I retraced the wires one more time to make sure that they are actually connected to the correct coils (they are).

I’m back to being stumped:
- Both injector banks fire fine in test mode.
- All EDIS coil banks are firing properly.
- RPM signal is good, and EDIS is increasing the timing once the engine exceeds 400 RPM, but the engine never actually catches and runs.

My battery is running low, so I’m going to wrap it up for the day. I’ll post a TS log and a video when I get home. I can’t imagine what I changed that broke ignition so badly since last week.

— Joe

[jangell]

And here is the video: https://youtu.be/kvTrS85jO20

And the log (this is not from the attempt in the video): 57755

And the current tune: 57754. Mostly I reset the VE table from my idle tests last week (when I had two coils swapped), but I'm including it for completeness, since I might have messed with something else and forgotten. I did try the tune from last weekend as well, but it didn't work either.

The TPS is not connected here, so you can ignore its reading. I just set the TPS range so that the floating racing wouldn't trigger the flood clear feature.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Looks to me like its firing at the wrong time. Kind of like trying to start a car with the distributor installed on the wrong stroke. Did your crank sensor get knocked out of position?

You’ve got a lot of wiring there. If a certain sensor (like temp sensor for instance) works then take those sensor wires and move them out of the way. Slowly tape up the stuff that is complete and get those wires out of the way so you can focus on the problems. How/where did you ground the MS unit, injectors, etc. ?

[jangell]

Crank sensor seemed to be in the right place at a glance, but I'll check it again next weekend to be sure. Easy to do. I'd be surprised if I knocked it, but it would be really, really nice if that was all that was wrong. I'll hook up a timing gun too, as FABombjoy suggested.

The wiring was fairly nicely taped up until today, when I cut all the self-fusing tape off to inspect the individual wires before I realized that MS was resetting and that it was a grounds issue. I need to buy some more self-fusing tape and wrap everything up again, although I was going to wait until it actually started again.

The MS, LC2 and EDIS grounds are connected to a bolt on the bulkhead where the coil used to be (you can see it on the right side of the video). On this same bolt is the end of my ground bus, so it has a very solid ground. There is also a short jumper to the engine block there, mostly because my bus wasn't quite long enough to reach all the way to the block, and two other small ground wires (transmission WOT switch and an starter relay I set up to work around problems where the car wouldn't start with a weak battery).

Injectors are run directly to the MS, and aren't separately grounded (they have two pin connectors), which I believe is how it's supposed to be done...

My latest wiring diagram is here, if that helps: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/510dbdc1e4b037c811a42c5a/t/5b685f9203ce64d629079906/1533566866558/DeLorean+EFI+Wiring.pdf

Thanks!

-- Joe

[opethmike]

You are correct about the grounding for the injectors. Glad you commented on how you have everything grounded; when I read that the MS was resetting, it reminded me of when I first did my MS install, and I had the MS grounded at one point, and the O2 sensor at another - this caused a ground loop and the MS would constantly reset.

[jangell]

I was never really sure what a ground loop was (but I’ve heard the term, and recall that it causes issues in old analog video recording tech, but that’s about it), but I admit that if Josh hadn’t set the harness up this way, I might well have used whatever ground was convenient instead of putting them all together. I mean, they’re all eventually going to the same place, right? It seems like it shouldn’t matter.

— Joe

[jangell]

This morning I checked the ignition timing. The VR sensor is correctly positioned 6 teeth before TDC, and a timing gun is flashing in roughly the right place (I can’t be any more accurate there because the RPMs vary a lot during cranking, usually below the 400 RPM for EDIS to stabilize at 10 degrees, so I’m seeing 6-14 degrees as it runs under 400 RPM to when the engine briefly exceeds cranking RPM and MS tries to boost the timing. The docs note that you really can’t reliably use a timing gun until the act is actually running).

I also removed the SAW plug on the EDIS to lock it into 10 degrees advance. Still won’t start, although it doesn’t seem to backfire.


I pulled each plug, one at a time, and tested them by cranking the engine with the coil connected to test the plug itself. All plugs fired.

Interestingly, with #5 out the car briefly ran (at a very low speed) before stalling out. I have no idea what that means, if anything. It almost started with plug #1 out too, running for less than a second before stalling.

Still, the backfires imply that either some fuel isn’t burning, or at least some plugs aren’t firing. Besides the orange flash visible in the throttle body, the engine would stop while cranking, I assume because the backfire is pushing the piston back down and countering the engine rotation.


I did get a new TPS sensor, so that’s calibrated and working now. At first I overtightened the screws and the sensor got stuck, but once I loosened them it worked properly. I’m wondering if that’s what killed the last one.

Anyway, I have to the the battery charge a bit before I do anymore tests. Any ideas about what else I can check? I’ll be back at the garage tomorrow to bash my head against the wall more.

Thanks!

— Joe

[jangell]

Today's update: Still doesn't work.

I tried rotating the coils (rotating through ACB to BAC to CBA), and it still won't start. This was just to confirm I really do have my coils set up correctly, although all I really know is that nothing starts. I didn't try other combinations like ABC, CAB or BCA.

I also tried just having pairs of coils installed (the "A" coils, the "B" coils, etc), just to see if it would run on two cylinders, and then again with four coils, but none of that had any effect. The only remotely positive thing is that with only two or four coils it didn't seem to backfire. It even ran smoothly enough at one point (with four coils) that I thought it was going to start, but it never actually caught. As you'd expect, there was a strong fuel smell out the exhaust when you have most of the coils out of the car, but at least I know some of the injectors are working.

I was hoping I could narrow down which cylinders are firing and which are backfiring, but I couldn't get it to backfire with pairs of cylinders installed, and it just seemed to crank and never actually fire a cylinder... I think.

And that's really all I did today -- shuffled some coils. I did enough cranks that the battery drained fairly quickly.

I've attached a cranking log with all the coils in place. The points where the RPMs drop to zero is where the engine backfires. I notice there's still noise in the CLT and MAT sensors (under 0.5 degrees, it seems), which is annoying, since the whole point of changing the harness routing (before which the engine actual ran) was to get rid of the noise.

-- Joe

edit: Oh, and I tried a spare EDIS module for good measure, but that didn't matter either.

57835

[dn010]

You've gone through the wiring to ensure the coils are wired up the same as the wiring diagram. You've made sure the correct coil is going to correct plug as shown on the wiring diagram. You checked to see that the CPS is in position, did you check the air gap? Seems like you've got a good start in narrowing down the problem.

Get rid of the noise on your sensors, maybe you still have a ground issue. Instead of unplugging the SAW connection, you can set base timing in TunerStudio to whatever you want, try 20, try 10. In my opinion I'd use a different connector than the stock bulkhead ones. Those connectors are junk and I've had nothing but problems with them throughout the years running stock. My tail lights would go out, my frequency valve would stop working, and I'd run rough because some pins were just not connecting. It was a very, very good day when I cut down all those connectors and put in a single weather pack. Few more thoughts - did you ground your shielded wire, the actual shielding to the MS? At this point you might try picking up a cheap used EDIS coil pack and wire it in, see if that makes any difference.

I don't have my laptop at the moment so I cannot look at your tune, will look after work.

Also - if you notice a difference with COP 1 & 5 pulled, 1 & 5 are both on the same wire. Check that wire, make sure it has a good connection. If you wired it according to the wiring diagram you posted in your other thread, it will be the gray/yellow wire going to the blue bulkhead connector. Again, I hate these connectors, I've tried in the past to bend the side of female connectors of these in where the split is in the metal a little, thus making a better connection and it has worked somewhat.

[jangell]

You've gone through the wiring to ensure the coils are wired up the same as the wiring diagram. You've made sure the correct coil is going to correct plug as shown on the wiring diagram. You checked to see that the CPS is in position, did you check the air gap? Seems like you've got a good start in narrowing down the problem.

I haven't directly measured the air gap; I was figuring that since it had a good RPM signal that it was fine, but as my higher-level attempts fail I start doing more and more tests like that, so I'll check it out in September (I'm out of town this weekend, so I have to wait a bit longer to do any more checks).


Get rid of the noise on your sensors, maybe you still have a ground issue.

I'll have to do another trace of the wires, I guess. I'm having trouble figuring out where the grounding issue could be. Apparently routing away from the coils wasn't the solution.

I'm starting to wonder if there's a problem with the passenger side injector wiring. In the setup I got from Josh, the passenger side uses the two blue wires run from MS (as is normal) and one large orange one from the 5A fuse. All three of the of the orange wires from the injectors are then soldered to the orange one from the fuse, and all three blue wires to the two blue ones from MS.

When I lengthened these wires to get enough slack to reroute the harness, I cut the blue and orange wires, and soldered in two new blue wires and two new orange wires (the two orange wires to account for the smaller gauge wire I was using relative to the larger original wire).

In theory, if one of those wires isn't connected sufficiently, there wouldn't be enough currently to reliably open the injectors. While test mode seems to click them open and closed OK, it may be that in actual operation they can't operate smoothly or reliably enough.

This is a wild guess, and would only account for the injectors on the passenger side of the engine, but it's the only thing I actually changed before this whole problem started.


Instead of unplugging the SAW connection, you can set base timing in TunerStudio to whatever you want, try 20, try 10.

Ah, cool. I knew that some of the timing controls don't apply to EDIS, but I hadn't looked at the base timing.

This harness is one of the things I got from Josh (sans DB37; I had to get one and solder it up, and I went through the whole harness at the time to make sure I understood it, and to crate my diagram). He had installed a removable plug of some sort (almost looks like a fuse, but without actually being a fuse) that I can just pop out to disable SAW. I have no idea where that plug is from, but it's pretty handy. I got the impression that EDIS ignored any SAW input under 400 RPM anyway, but I may be misremembering.


In my opinion I'd use a different connector than the stock bulkhead ones. Those connectors are junk and I've had nothing but problems with them throughout the years running stock. My tail lights would go out, my frequency valve would stop working, and I'd run rough because some pins were just not connecting. It was a very, very good day when I cut down all those connectors and put in a single weather pack.

I'm also not a fan of the original connectors. I used them in part because Josh's harness had them, but also because I had some silly idea of trying to remain somewhat original, before I realized just how much of the electrical system changes for EFI. I've seriously considered replacing them with GM weatherpack ones myself -- I just haven't wanted to pull everything back out to do it. I also want a decent way to mount them and seal up the holes for the old connectors in the bulkhead. That, and my connector kit maxes at four or six pins. What did you do for yours?


Few more thoughts - did you ground your shielded wire, the actual shielding to the MS?

The crank sensor wire shielding is grounded only to EDIS pin 7. It is not connected to the engine ground, MS, or to the crank connector -- It is only connected to the EDIS. This is how I understood it from the docs (I made a note about it in my wiring diagram so I wouldn't forget).


At this point you might try picking up a cheap used EDIS coil pack and wire it in, see if that makes any difference.

Worth a go, I guess. The thing is, I know the coils work -- I went so far as to pull each plug, one at a time, and saw the nice blue-white spark provided by its specific coil while cranking.

Somewhat relatedly, For some reason my coils don't really want to sit firmly in the socket, and tend to pop out a bit, which is a bit annoying. I cut a some aluminum stack to make a bracket to hold them down more securely, although all I probably really need to do is cut down the conductor springs so the they simply make contact with the tops of the plugs and don't try to force the boots out of the engine. I'm honestly surprised that these boots stayed in on the original Monaco/Premiere setup.

A lot of this 3.0L/EFI conversion was me reading a bunch of docs, getting confused, taking parts that seemed to work for other people and putting them together, and then re-reading the docs again, which now actually made sense with context and my new-found experience. A simple example is the springs springs in the spark plug boots -- I just thought they needed to be that long because that's how they came, but now that I properly understand their purpose it's clear that they only need to be long enough for a solid electrical connection.


I don't have my laptop at the moment so I cannot look at your tune, will look after work.

No problem -- thanks! I forgot to mention that I also tried Josh's known good tune, on which my car had previously run. Still didn't work.


Also - if you notice a difference with COP 1 & 5 pulled, 1 & 5 are both on the same wire. Check that wire, make sure it has a good connection. If you wired it according to the wiring diagram you posted in your other thread, it will be the gray/yellow wire going to the blue bulkhead connector. Again, I hate these connectors, I've tried in the past to bend the side of female connectors of these in where the split is in the metal a little, thus making a better connection and it has worked somewhat.

Good point -- I'll do a more thorough test on #1 and #5 next time I'm at the garage.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[Bitsyncmaster]

For best electrical noise reduction:

Sensor grounds should not conduct any current. So it's best to run all the sensor grounds to one point. Then run power grounds with their own wires to another ground point. It's normal for shielded cables to only have one end of the shield tied to ground, that way no current can flow in the shield.

[jangell]

For best electrical noise reduction:

Sensor grounds should not conduct any current. So it's best to run all the sensor grounds to one point. Then run power grounds with their own wires to another ground point. It's normal for shielded cables to only have one end of the shield tied to ground, that way no current can flow in the shield.

The sensor grounds ("sensor return" in the MS docs) for CLT, MAT and TPS all run to black or black/white wires that meet at a bulkhead connector, then run to a single pin on MS. They aren't connected to anything else other than the individual sensors themselves.

The shield is set up exactly as you said.

So it sounds like I've done it right. I'm not sure where the noise is coming from.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

The gap may appear to be fine but the signal my drop when you begin getting higher or lower RPMs, simple enough to pull out some feeler gauges and check it to rule it out.

Odd you still have noise if you used the sensor grounds from the MS. On mine, all wires are bundled together, injector wires, TPS, temp, etc – all of them are together except the CPS which I sent the shielded wire on its own into the hole for the vacuum line and down in the left side pontoon, away from anything. All connections are soldered, heat shrink tube covering them and taped up so that there is certainty they’re connected and the splice won’t break. I have to look at how I grounded the shielded wire – as you and Dave already have said; it is only grounded at one end. I think I grounded the shielded wire from the EDIS module at the MS unit and connected the shields at the module with the CPS wire.

You should double check your injector wiring but when in doubt, drink a 6-pack. Take the empty bottles and put the injector in them & then run your test modes. They should all spray similar amounts after a few rounds of tests. If one bottle is less then you’ve got problems.

Because I felt the same about keeping the car with the ability to go back to ‘original’, I left the ECU connectors in place and stuffed the bulk head connectors back behind the plate only cutting the wires I needed a few inches down from them. The only one I actually and removed completely was the black one for the tail light harness. I then used a 22 pin weather pack bulkhead connector (Amazon!) and custom made my own connector plate to replace the original one with all the connector cutouts. Majority of my wiring is in a separate harness going through the firewall directly to the MS or wherever without having a connector between because I didn’t want to deal with any weak points. Because of this, 22-pin was plenty for me. For you, you could use a few 22-pin ones or buy one that is closer to the pin count you’d require. This is a photo from when the swap was first up and running so the plate looks a little crude, and you can see the wiring going through the firewall at the left side of the frame brace or whatever you want to call it.

Few things for what they’re worth:

I am running my conversion on a mass air flow sensor which saved me the pain of having to create fuel tables. I’m not sure of anyone else basing their fueling off a MAF but I love it.

I did the same as Volvo in their Bertones and ran ground straps to frame from each head.

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=42040&d=1463611654

[jangell]

The gap may appear to be fine but the signal my drop when you begin getting higher or lower RPMs, simple enough to pull out some feeler gauges and check it to rule it out.

A feeler gauge -- I should have thought if that. I was going to try to figure out how to get a micrometer in there. :) Mine is mounted fairly low, so it's a bit of a pain to get in there.


Odd you still have noise if you used the sensor grounds from the MS. On mine, all wires are bundled together, injector wires, TPS, temp, etc – all of them are together except the CPS which I sent the shielded wire on its own into the hole for the vacuum line and down in the left side pontoon, away from anything.[QUOTE]

Mine are all bundled together, too, although they separate into bulkhead connectors before going back into a bundle to get to MS behind the driver's seat. My CPS is running through a removed bulkhead connector along with everything else, with headphone-style connectors (shielded, of course) to keep everything clean.

Sensor noise appears to only be in the TPS, CLT and MAT. I have to re-check the TPS, since that sensor was broken anyway. And the noise I'm seeing in the sensors is on cranking -- it seems possible that the starter load might be messing with the readings? It'll be easier to check this stuff once the engine is running.

[QUOTE]All connections are soldered, heat shrink tube covering them and taped up so that there is certainty they’re connected and the splice won’t break.

Mine too -- everything is soldered and (mostly) heat shrinked. I wrapped everything up in self-fusing tape to keep the wires together and safe, although I cut that off while trying to diagnose this problem. I'll re-wrap once it starts again.

[QUOTE]I have to look at how I grounded the shielded wire – as you and Dave already have said; it is only grounded at one end. I think I grounded the shielded wire from the EDIS module at the MS unit and connected the shields at the module with the CPS wire.

Mine's grounded at EDIS but the CPS to EDIS shield and EDIS to MS shield are contented to each other, making one long shield.


You should double check your injector wiring but when in doubt, drink a 6-pack. Take the empty bottles and put the injector in them & then run your test modes. They should all spray similar amounts after a few rounds of tests. If one bottle is less then you’ve got problems.

I thought about that, but I wasn't sure how well the injectors would stay in the fuel rails while the pump was running. If that will work, I'll be happy to try it.

On a somewhat related note, I know my car is low on gas (I put in a few gallons from a gas can), and the fuel sender is reading low, but the fuel pressure is good so I'm pretty sure "out of fuel" isn't a problem. Still, I should probably through in a couple more gallons of gas. I mean, I the last fuel I put in was back in December...


Because I felt the same about keeping the car with the ability to go back to ‘original’, I left the ECU connectors in place and stuffed the bulk head connectors back behind the plate only cutting the wires I needed a few inches down from them. The only one I actually and removed completely was the black one for the tail light harness. I then used a 22 pin weather pack bulkhead connector (Amazon!) and custom made my own connector plate to replace the original one with all the connector cutouts. Majority of my wiring is in a separate harness going through the firewall directly to the MS or wherever without having a connector between because I didn’t want to deal with any weak points. Because of this, 22-pin was plenty for me. For you, you could use a few 22-pin ones or buy one that is closer to the pin count you’d require. This is a photo from when the swap was first up and running so the plate looks a little crude, and you can see the wiring going through the firewall at the left side of the frame brace or whatever you want to call it.

"22 pin" and "bulkhead" where the keywords I was missing. Searching Amazon for "weatherpack" mostly finds 2-6 pin connectors. Of course, I need 27 pins if I want to do it all in one connector, and the 29 pin one is more than twice the price of the 22 pin one, but it exists, so that's good. Doesn't cover the black and red connectors (I have an automatic), but I'm OK with leaving those as-is for now. Maybe I'll spend a few hours converting the MS stuff over to that, and eventually 3D print a plate or something to fill the reset of the original bulkhead connector space. I'd always planned to do some mods (digital dash and the like) and I've already re-routed the air ducts into the knee pads for a double-DIN radio install, plus all the ECU wiring I removed, so it's not going to be quick to go back to original anyway.


Few things for what they’re worth:

I am running my conversion on a mass air flow sensor which saved me the pain of having to create fuel tables. I’m not sure of anyone else basing their fueling off a MAF but I love it.

I'm not too worried about the fuel tables, since I'm mostly just going to let auto-tune figure it out. I've gotten the impression that it's pretty good, as long as you make sure to hit all the useful cells in the table when tuning.


I did the same as Volvo in their Bertones and ran ground straps to frame from each head.

I might look into that. I have the one ground strap at the passenger engine mount, and my ground bus to the top of the passenger valve cover. I don't have anything on the driver's side, but I guess that shouldn't matter. Although now I'm wondering how electrically insulating valve cover gaskets and RTV are...


http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=42040&d=1463611654

Cool. I want to get one of those fire suppression things at some point. Never quite got around to it.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Be careful with autotune, when I tried it before I went MAF, it did more harm than good.

[FABombjoy]

Unless you set up the lambda delay table for your engine/exhaust, VEL (autotune) will frequently make adjustments based on measurements at the wrong point in time.

You can use formulas to constrain it to only adjust on low TPSdot / RPMdot / MAPdot to limit changes during steady states. Or bring a friend that will turn it on and off at strategic points in the map and then interpolate.

[jangell]

My extremely limited understanding of tuning is that I want to hit AFR targets by adjusting fuel (via the VE table) at a given MAP. Which it seems like is exactly what auto-tune does. But I can understand it being tricky if you're accelerating and decelerating a lot. It seems like it would be easier for it if you're holding at a particular throttle position and engine load.

My AFR table is auto-generated, because I have no idea what it should be otherwise. It seemed like auto-tune would get me at least part of the way there, and I could tweak it after that. But I admit that even their own docs say that it works "to an extent." Luckily there are restore points and I can just reset the table if I screw it up too much.

Some Googling found people having good results with auto-tune, but some people saying they don't like it, but not so much saying why they don't. I found some notes on setting it to only tune above 1200 RPM or so so that it doesn't mess with your idle, and some mentions of adjusting the lambda delay to make it less aggressive, but I haven't found a good "how to" on it yet.

Of course, first I have to get it running again...

-- Joe

[dn010]

Hey Joe, before your next go: in ignition settings - ignition options, set your input capture to rising edge instead of falling edge and give it a try. Maybe this is your whole problem.

[Spittybug]

Hey Joe, before your next go: in ignition settings - ignition options, set your input capture to rising edge instead of falling edge and give it a try. Maybe this is your whole problem.


I concur. I am set up rising edge, going high.

[jangell]

Will do. I think this may be one of the settings I copied from Josh, but I did get the impression that rising edge was more common. Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Will do. I think this may be one of the settings I copied from Josh, but I did get the impression that rising edge was more common. Thanks!

-- Joe

Per the Megamanual, EDIS needs to be rising edge / going high. It says if it is incorrect "you can experience timing drift with rpms or misdetection of missing teeth on a missing tooth wheel", mis-detection seems like what you're experiencing.

[jangell]

Not sure how I missed that -- I've already made the change on my laptop for when I go to the garage this weekend. Thanks!

-- Joe

[Drive Stainless]

The rising edge vs falling edge is a complicated issue and depends on the circuit that is being used for input.

If you have the v3.57 board, this is what Matt Cramer (DIY Autotune) says:



Use "Rising Edge" if using the following combinations of jumpers on a V3.57:

JP1 on 2-3, J1 on 1-2
JP1 on 1-2, J1 on 5-6

Use "Falling Edge" if using this jumper combination:

JP1 on 1-2, J1 on 3-4

On my 3.0L EDIS setup, I use "falling edge."

[jangell]

I do have a 3.57 (MS2357-C) with MS2-Extra 3.3.3 loaded (well, that's what's printed on the label; I never updated it beyond that).

I popped off the case, and JP1 is on 2-3, and J1 is at 1-2, so it looks like I do want rising edge.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Well, updates?

[jangell]

Not much of a change, I'm afraid.

First, I checked the VR sensor. My "eyeballing it" was way, way off, because I apparently don't know how big a millimeter is. I used 1mm worth of feeler gauges to get it properly aligned (EDIS spec is 0.75 to 1.5mm, according to the MegaManual). Interestingly, with it way out of alignment there would be no RPMs when set to Rising Edge, but I got RPMs when set to Falling Edge. Once adjusted, only Rising Edge reported RPMs, and Falling Edge was always showing 0. Unfortunately, the engine wouldn't start in any configuration.


Next I pulled coils again, trying to narrow down which cylinders were working and which weren't. I unplugged four coils at a time (since they fire in pairs and all that), and just removed one of the two remaining coils and cranked the engine (I couldn't unplug the other coil in the bank, since they're wired in series). I could both hear when a cylinder fired and see the surge in the vacuum gauge. Most of the time, nothing fired.


EDIS A Bank (2 & 6)

#2 Only: Fires only when #6 is also installed
#6 Only: Always fires



EDIS B Bank (1 & 5)

#1 Only: Never Fires
#5 Only: Backfires? (engine stops rotating briefly)



EDIS C Bank (3 & 4). Almost catches when both are installed, I think.

#3 Only: Never Fires
#4 Only: Never Fires





I'm not sure why I get different results when one is installed when both are installed -- it doesn't seem like it should matter. I confirmed the coils have power by holding the spark plug end near the block while cranking and looking for the spark, just to be sure. Previously I'd pulled the plugs as well and made sure that they were actually firing.

Just a reminder that the unusual firing order (BAC) is because the sensor is positioned 120 degrees offset from TDC plus another six teeth counter-clockwise, which is how Josh set it up. It makes sense if you work it out (also, we know it worked on Josh's car, and again, this thing was actually idling a few weeks ago). I reconfirmed this positioning when I adjusted the VR sensor.


For the last test of the day, I took out the fuel injectors and put them in bottles, then ran MS in Test Mode. #1 doesn't work at all (it clicks, but no fuel comes out), but the other five seem to be spraying a good amount of fuel. I took the filter out of the top of that injector and it seems clean, so I'm just going to replace the injector. Of course, it's a holiday weekend and my local auto parts store doesn't have any, so I'll have to order them. At least this explains why #1 never fired, but it doesn't explain #3 and #4 seemingly only firing when both are installed, or #5 backfiring.

Another detail is that it turns out the plastic pintle caps on the end of the old injectors were still stuck in the injectors holes in the passenger side heads (the caps where still on my current injectors, so I must have just not noticed that they didn't come out with the old ones). That probably wasn't helping, but they weren't plugged, so I think fuel was getting through. I have obviously have removed them now.


I kinda wish I wasn't using EDIS just so I could change the timing in MS itself, adding and removing values in software to see if it is actually a timing issue. The VR sensor is tough to get to and a pain to adjust, so I don't really want to do tests that way. But once it's working I shouldn't have to worry about this again. And we're back to the fact that this idled a few weeks back, so I have no idea what is wrong.

-- Joe

[jangell]

Another small note: while trying to figure out why I can't get CAN bus to work, I noticed that I never changed any of the jumpers on my MS 2. Apparently for EDIS and its VR sensor input (MSv357_Hwardware-3.3.pdf, page 65), I was supposed to set JP1 to 1-2, J1 to 3-4, and rotate R52 and R56 7 turns counterclockwise, then R56 back about 2 turns. I've just done this now. Unfortunately, I screwed up the number of turns on R52; hopefully I didn't damage anything (the docs do warn about that). RPM readings using the Stimulator still look good, so I'm probably fine...

This configuration suggests that I should be using Falling Edge instead of Rising Edge, per the info Drive Stainless provided.

-- Joe

[dn010]

I kinda wish I wasn't using EDIS just so I could change the timing in MS itself, adding and removing values in software to see if it is actually a timing issue. The VR sensor is tough to get to and a pain to adjust, so I don't really want to do tests that way. But once it's working I shouldn't have to worry about this again. And we're back to the fact that this idled a few weeks back, so I have no idea what is wrong.

You can change the timing in MS, you just go into ignition setting and select "fixed" timing and enter the timing value you want. Just remember it is fixed and won't change, if you rev up you can do damage. Once your done with whatever tests you do, remember to set it back to using your ignition table.

[dn010]

Also, the settings on page 65 are for a VR sensor connected directly to the MS, those settings are not appropriate for an EDIS setup. You need to use the settings that are on page 111, starting just above the bottom of the page where it says typical settings. This got me too, when I was setting up my ECU with EDIS, but I was corrected by James on it.

[jangell]

You can change the timing in MS, you just go into ignition setting and select "fixed" timing and enter the timing value you want. Just remember it is fixed and won't change, if you rev up you can do damage. Once your done with whatever tests you do, remember to set it back to using your ignition table.

I think you mentioned this before, but I wasn't thinking about it clearly. I understand now -- it's adjusting the SAW signal sent to EDIS to control the timing advance. I guess I can't add any sort of "timing offset" so that I can tweak the timing in software instead of moving the VR sensor -- that would require getting rid of EDIS and having MS control everything itself. Although I could add offsets in the timing table itself, I guess, if I really wanted to do that.

The fixed timing is fine for this test -- I mostly want to see what to use software to adjust the timing forwards and backwards and see if I can make the engine fire reliably. That would be easier than faster than adjusting the VR sensor, and then I can fix the VR sensor afterwards. I don't THINK the timing is off, but I'm running out of things to test.

-- Joe

[dn010]

You can set timing offset, if needed, but it's not recommended with EDIS because if something happens to put you in limp home mode, the ECU will no longer be using the offset and if your sensor is off you could possibly damage the engine (because you won't be at 10 degrees, you could be at 8 if your offset was 2 or 5 if your offset was 5 degrees).

If my memory is fine, how I did it was I removed all the spark plugs in the engine, I set the timing to 15 degrees fixed in TS and then with someone on the starter I used the timing light to see what I was getting on the timing marks at the pulley. With the plugs gone the engine spins easily and your battery goes down slower.

[Drive Stainless]

At the time that I sought Matt Cramer's help, this was the information that everyone was using:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_EDIS.htm

As shown on that page, that info has now been superseded by the (http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf) document, which contradicts Matt Cramer's advice and says to use "Rising Edge" when JP1 is on 1-2 and J1 on 3-4.

I've since posted to my original thread on msextra.com asking about that change. See here:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=51917&p=530075#p530075

[dn010]

Deleted misinformation.


At the time that I sought Matt Cramer's help, this was the information that everyone was using:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_EDIS.htm

As shown on that page, that info has now been superseded by the (http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf) document, which contradicts Matt Cramer's advice and says to use "Rising Edge" when JP1 is on 1-2 and J1 on 3-4.

I've since posted to my original thread on msextra.com asking about that change. See here:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=51917&p=530075#p530075

[Drive Stainless]

Page 66 is for VR sensor -> MS. Page 111 is for VR sensor -> EDIS -> MS.


Page 111 does not provide any mainboard jumper settings. It simply refers back to section 5.2.4:

"Set the mainboard as per section 5.2.4"

Section 5.2.4 spans from page 65-66. Page 66 states:

VR Input for logic input e.g. TFI, EDIS, GMDIS, LS1/24X, modules, hall sensor with built-in pullup
a) Find JP1 in the bottom right of the board. Place a jumper across positions 1 and 2
b) Find J1 in the middle of the board. Place a jumper across positions 3 and 4
c) With a small screwdriver, turn the pots, R52 and R56, 7 turns anticlockwise (sometimes you may feel a "click"
when the end position is reached, they can't be damaged by turning too far.)
d)Turn R56 back about 2 turns clockwise.

[dn010]

You posted before I could edit. You are right correct. For some reason James told me that adjusting the pots in that fashion was incorrect for EDIS. Maybe I too need to clarify if something has changed! (However, and I must remember, I was asking about MS3X 3.57 where they said just hook it up and try it, don't worry about inline resisters or the pots).

[jangell]

Also, the settings on page 65 are for a VR sensor connected directly to the MS, those settings are not appropriate for an EDIS setup. You need to use the settings that are on page 111, starting just above the bottom of the page where it says typical settings. This got me too, when I was setting up my ECU with EDIS, but I was corrected by James on it.
...
You posted before I could edit. You are right correct. For some reason James told me that adjusting the pots in that fashion was incorrect for EDIS. Maybe I too need to clarify if something has changed!

I had a whole reply your first post before I saw your follow-up. :)

Here's what I have now:

Hardware
- JP1 at 2-3
- J1 at 3-4
- Turned R52 7 turns counter-clockwise (And in another explain of "I can't read", the docs say that the pots can't be damaged (not that they can be damaged) by rotating too far, so I didn't break anything by over-turning R52.)
- Turned and R56 7 turns counter-clockwise, then two turns clockwise
- MS board does not have Q16 installed
- Aa wire is running from Q16's middle pad to JS10

Software
- Ignition Capture set to Rising Edge
- Spark Output is Going High
- Spark A Output Pin is disabled in TunerStudio, so I'm guessing it implicitly sets it to JS10

I notice that using Rising Edge with this JS1/J1 configuration conflicts with what Drive Stainless posted, so that's odd. I'm curious to see what I get for RPMs when I put it back in the car. The markings on the bottom of the board say that JP1 1-2 is "VrIn" and J1 3-4 is "VrOut" (as opposed to OptoIn and OptoOut my previous configuration), but since we're using EDIS to process the VR signal I'm not sure how that applies here, beyond "that's what the docs say to do".

I could try to redo the Timing Test in 6.7.5, but my understanding is that EDIS timing is unreliable below 400 RPM, and that it slowly increases from 0 to 10 degrees as it nears 400 RPM. Which means I need the engine running before I can try that again.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

At the time that I sought Matt Cramer's help, this was the information that everyone was using:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_EDIS.htm

As shown on that page, that info has now been superseded by the (http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf) document, which contradicts Matt Cramer's advice and says to use "Rising Edge" when JP1 is on 1-2 and J1 on 3-4.

I've since posted to my original thread on msextra.com asking about that change. See here:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=51917&p=530075#p530075

Ah -- that answers my question about that discrepancy. Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

You can set timing offset, if needed, but it's not recommended with EDIS because if something happens to put you in limp home mode, the ECU will no longer be using the offset and if your sensor is off you could possibly damage the engine (because you won't be at 10 degrees, you could be at 8 if your offset was 2 or 5 if your offset was 5 degrees).

If my memory is fine, how I did it was I removed all the spark plugs in the engine, I set the timing to 15 degrees fixed in TS and then with someone on the starter I used the timing light to see what I was getting on the timing marks at the pulley. With the plugs gone the engine spins easily and your battery goes down slower.

Ah -- that makes sense. I can probably get up to 400 RPM without any compression to worry about. I'll give that a shot this weekend. Thanks!

I would only use a permanent timing offset in software if it was only a few degrees to avoid issues with EDIS limp-home mode. Even then, I'd prefer to get the VR sensor as close as possible and then do <1 degree tweaks in software for that final bit of finessing.

-- Joe

[jangell]

I tried pulling the plugs and cranking the engine, but the high-torque starter I have tops out at 200 RPM. At that speed EDIS goes to ~5 degrees as measured with a timing gun. I know EDIS is unreliable under 400 RPM, but if the output is linear before that then 5 degrees at 200 RPM seems about right.

I replaced the #1 injector and tested the flow, so that’s good now.

I also drained the tank and put in fresh gas. The gas I had in there is at least 9 months old, so replacing it isn’t a bad idea. The old gas looked a little orange, which is part of the reason I went ahead with this. There was only about a gallon in the tank; I added four more.

Old gas on the left, new gas on the right.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180909/c26caec61cde2e4e770d68bf0db2ed40.jpg

Still won’t start, though. I didn’t have much time this weekend, so I wasn’t able to re-test the spark one plug at a time. RPM signal is good return it’s the newly-set MS jumpers, at least.

I did figure out why my plug boots seem so easy to remove: I had bought new Bosch injectors, but it turns out the bodies are slightly thinner than the original Champion injectors. The Champions fit much more snuggly in the boots and are even slightly difficult to pull out. I’m going to either get a set of Champions, or see if I can find dimensional information for Bosch plugs and find a match (one site listed 135 cross references for the Champions, so there’s probably one that’s the right size).

Thanks again

— Joe

[jangell]

Still no luck, I'm afraid.

I took Dan's advice and replaced the nearly 40 year old bulkhead connectors with a brand new 31 pin weather pack bulkhead connector. I tested each wire as I went, making sure I'd plugged each pin into the correct part of the connector, and making sure the ends of the wires connect to the right pins on MegaSquirt, EDIS, the fuses, the original parts of the wiring, and the new parts of the wiring in the engine bay. I built a new bulkhead plate out of plastic and mounted the new connector and two of the original connectors (the black tail lights and the red automatic transmission) plus the positive and ground terminal through that.

Everything seems to have tested fine. But the car still behaves as before -- it cranks, sometimes a cylinder fires, sometimes it backfires, but it won't start.

I've started another thread asking if someone can test my MegaSquirt, because it's the only component I haven't tried swapping out yet.

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Oh yeah, here's a picture of the bulkhead connector install. I lengthen a few of the wires to ensure that nothing would get pulled out accidentally. Everything is soldered and heat shrinked where appropriate. I used 1/8" plastic for the panel. I bent it by clamping it between my workbench and a 2x4, with the 2x4 at the line I wanted to bend (which was at an angle, not perpendicular as I'd expected), then warming it with a heat gun while applying upward pressure to bend the plastic. Holes were drilled, then cut wider with a Dremel and a conical sanding bit, which made short work of the plastic without it being able to weld itself back together like a scroll saw or jigsaw blade would do.

It worked out pretty well. The rectangular connectors are a little loose, though, more the red one than the black one. The plastic is too think for the connectors' clips to latch onto the plastic, so I just made the holes really tight. I might run some bolts or screws in through the front of the plate, and use washers and nuts from the back against the connectors to hold them in place if it becomes an issue.

58371 58372

-- Joe

[jangell]

Everyone was right that it was an ignition issue -- I swapped the CoP setup for a coil pack from a Mustang 3000GT, and it actually worked. I think I just weakened some of the CoP wires when I was rerouting them, and that EDIS is sensitive to that. I'll likely redo the CoP wiring and go back to that, rather than dealing with mounting the coil pack and figuring out a better setup for the plug wires. I talk about this a bit more here, along with a video of it idling (untuned at 1500 RPM, but it's idling):

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?16939-Can-someone-test-my-MegaSquirt-II-3-57&p=240795&viewfull=1#post240795

Thanks again!

-- Joe

[dn010]

Before you decide to go back, consider:

-You can use the wires for any particular vehicle that you can get the coil pack from. Take the EDIS spark wires & stock PRV wires, spray all of the spark plug boot ends with silicone spray. Pull the spark plug boots off all wires and swap the PRV boots onto the EDIS wires. IF the EDIS wires have angled spark plug connectors, bend them straight.

-Two simple brackets can be made to install the pack to the right of the water pump.

If you do not have this particular coil pack, I would go with the one shown a few posts down, here: http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/97193-edis-crank-fire-system/

[jangell]

Cool, thanks. I set it up so it'll be easy to switch between coil packs and coil on plug from an electrical standpoint (just unplug one and plug in the other). I'll grab some silicone spray and try to get the boots off both sets of wires. The 3000GT wires do indeed have a 90 degree bend inside the boot, which seems to be molded plastic around the wire, but I'm sure it can be pulled out somehow. I also guessed that the best mounting location would be on the right of the engine where the distributor was on the 3.0L, although that is primarily because one of the 3000GT wires is surprisingly short, and it would probably have to be mounted there to reach #3 at all.

-- Joe