Fully documented EFI conversion

[Spittybug]

Thought that might get a few hits..... Sean, can we make this sticky?

I will document in as much detail as possible, the steps I took to convert my car from stock to Megasquirt EFI, including photos, links and other references. Others who have been down the EFI path are welcome to do the same.

In return, I would only ask civility. It is not my intention to make this a contest, a forum for pissing on anyone's opinions or for comparisons to K-Jet or carbs. It is my hope that we could use this thread to provide a useful technical reference for anyone that may be thinking about going down this path.

If a third sticky were created, call it perhaps "Stock K-Jet maintenance" or something similar, then we have 3 distinct playgrounds for three distinct technologies. There would be no need to rant and rave about misquoting of one another or personal attacks. Posts should be limited to CONTRIBUTORY statements or questions with regards to that particular technology only. I'd like to see the thread owner's enforce this no-pissing rule and have the cooperation of the moderator to remove or edit postings to maintain the civility.

What say the masses?

[opethmike]

I would love to see this become a successful thread. Once I get my EFI working after my upcoming second attempt, I will contribute as much as I can.

[Mike C.]

I love the idea. I will go ahead and make this a sticky! Can't wait to see your progress!

[jangell]

I'm for it -- I'm still hoping to do an EFI conversion and would love to have a detailed write-up. It might be nice to have more of a wiki form if multiple people are contributing, just to keep things organized and linear, but I'm just as happy with a long forum thread that I can read through as long as all the info is there.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[orbitron3000]

I, too, would like to see this thread take off. At some point down the road I would like to do an EFI conversion, and I think this could be an invaluable resource for myself and anyone looking to do this.

Ryan
#5780

[dmc6960]

I will have to regather all of my info from my conversion. I had a fairly detailed documentation on my old .com engine thread about it.

Wonder if I can get just the raw text from that thread and reformat it myself. :hmm:

[stevedmc]

This should be lots of fun. Although I like what I currently have, I'm very interested to read more information on converting to EFI.

[AdmiralSenn]

Is it okay for the rest of us EFI guys to chime in with relevant info where it's appropriate? Between all of the successful conversions I think we can get a pretty comprehensive document going.

[opethmike]

Yeah, I think that's what Owen was saying he's looking for out of this thread.

[Spittybug]

I've suggested to Mike that we create a couple of subfolders for software, hardware and integration/installation so that we can make this a reference. I don't know how or if it can be configured in this way or not.

I received his blessings for the removal of non-contributory comments in this thread; I have but to ask. This will not be allowed to become a pissing match or a competition. It is meant to be informative and collaborative. I really hope that you guys that have done similar conversions can share your experiences. For the people looking to learn from this thread, I hope they ask questions which we will in turn try to answer.

While waiting to see how the forum/directory may be configured, I'm building up a Word doc with text and pictures of my build. I can post iterations of it as it expands. I hope to have some available by tonight.

[Spittybug]

Here is my first pass at the write up on my install. I will continue to update it and periodically re-upload it with the same name. I don't think this is the optimal way to do this, but I'm not sure what features we can enable with this forum. Admins???

If parts are unclear or if more detail is necessary, please comment and I'll try and improve it. I haven't tried to tackle the tuning section yet.

[opethmike]

Since I am going to attempt my conversion again soon, I would like to see pictures from Jim Reeve and Martin Gutkowski (sp?) of how they do the throttle spool set up with the Z7U manifold, please.

Owen - Nice write up. I'm using a different manifold, but I think it will certainly be helpful to others!

[AdmiralSenn]

Fantastic job so far, man. I look forward to referencing your spark control section when I get that far on my car.

Comments:



After the fuel injector bungs have been welded into place, injectors can be inserted to determine the exact placement of the holes in the fuel rail. The rail was bought from Jegs, www.jegs.com and it already has the center bore. You mark where the injectors need to insert and then carefully drill a hole. Much to my surprise in doing this job, the injectors are only held in place and kept sealed by o-rings on both ends. The side wall (not floor or ceiling) friction fit into both the bungs and the fuel rail is sufficient; see the pic later on of the injector and its o-rings. Notice how the standoffs for the fuel rail are held by the same 4 bolts that hold down the manifold itself in Figure 4, below. Once the injectors are seated in both the rail and the bungs, the screws can be tapped into the rail to hold the spacing.


Not sure if there's a price difference but you can order custom length fuel rails pre-tapped for AN -6 connections from rossmachineracing.com.

Also, it's worth pointing out that while the seal for the injectors is in fact accomplished by the o-ring alone, it is still VITAL that the rail be secured against moving away from the injector bungs (I.e. along the axis of the injectors themselves). Your standoffs serve a dual purpose here - maintaining alignment and preventing the pressure from forcing the rail off the injectors and causing Bad Things to happen.



I’m not sufficiently experienced to know all of the different diameters that may be out there, so the key is to have the injectors before drilling any holes! Before someone asks, getting giant ones will NOT increase your power.


The basic two diameters (I think this is something like 99% of all injectors not counting TBI units) are 11 and 14mm. 14mm is the standard size "Bosch" type injector - this is what you want as they're likely to be MUCH easier to find wiring and bungs for. The 14's are basically all the same exterior dimensions for the purposes of fabricating a rail.

Good call on the injector size mention. For a 3.0L I think the most we'd ever need is about 30lbs, and that'd be for a monster street or track motor. For reference, my 29.5lb injectors are from a supercharged Pontiac 3.8L engine - I will never ever push those injectors to their limits. Might want to mention the difference between hi and low impedance injectors as well - hi-impedance are a lot easier to set up, I'm not sure if there's an advantage to low impedance or not.

Also worth mentioning is that DIYAutoTune also carries all of the electrical harness bits for making a harness - not just the MS stuff. You can basically buy all of your electrical bits there (MS board, stim, wiring harness, injector and sensor connectors, Weatherpack connectors, and a bunch more, but their injectors are HUGE, so I'd still look elsewhere for those). It helps tremendously to have a single source for those parts. I know you mentioned the stim and harness but those connectors were a GODSEND for me and I can't help plugging them a little. And they have fantastic customer service, too...

[stevedmc]

Has anyone every considered this product?

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=30226-KIT&Category_Code=EFISystemEZIEFIKits

They make it look so easy to convert to EFI but of course it is very expensive.

[opethmike]

Has anyone every considered this product?

http://www.compperformancegroupstores.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FS&Product_Code=30226-KIT&Category_Code=EFISystemEZIEFIKits

They make it look so easy to convert to EFI but of course it is very expensive.

Considering that I didn't spend too much less than that on my equipment, and I had to gather everything from a bunch of different sources, that price, while a lot of money, isn't really out of line. However, my money included an intake manifold set and ready to go for port injection.

A manifold would still be required, which would either have to be fabricated (I bet one of Bill's manifold's could be used with an adapter plate, perhaps?), or an existing manifold that fits our heads would have to be found.

It is also throttle body injection, which isn't as desirable as port injection. Another problem I see is that it is supposedly a self-learning system. While that may be easier to get a drivable car going much more quickly, it is not going to be as accurate or fine tuned as the human driven iterative tuning process.

While there may be simplicity advantages to a setup like that, and I may be wrong here, I don't really see anyone who is considering EFI doing so because they want an easily accomplished conversion.

[AdmiralSenn]

That's an interesting kit, but pretty much useless for us unless they make one that fits a PRV for some reason. Looks like it's designed solely to fit a particular type of carb manifold.

It also appears to be a weird cross between TBI and port fuel injection - I don't *think* that multiple injectors will have a real benefit with the injectors that far away from the runners, though I'm admittedly not an expert.

In this case with all the stuff that you get with it, if you had a motor that would fit it, I bet it IS super easy - maybe by enough to warrant the price difference.

[content22207]

"4150" is a Holley carb (the so called Double Pumper?), which uses a standard square bore bolt pattern if I'm not mistaken.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

"4150" is a Holley carb (the so called Double Pumper?), which uses a standard square bore bolt pattern if I'm not mistaken.

Bill Robertson
#5939

Yep. It wouldn't work on a 604 manifold because its designed to replace a 4 barrel carburetor. I'm sure someone else has a product designed to replace Motorcraft 2100 carbs with EFI.

I would seriously consider TBI if I were to ever convert to EFI. You don't have to worry about timing when the injectors fire and its a much simpler design. My Geo Metro runs TBI and got 52 mpg on my last tank of gas.

[opethmike]

There really isn't a whole lot to time; unless you're going to fully sequential port injection.

Batch injection is similar to K-Jet in that it fires all injectors at once. Also, port injection isn't exactly all that much more complicated than TBI. Instead of a fuel feed line going to a throttle body, it goes to a pair of fuel rails, and then injectors are mounted in the fuel rails. That's about all there is to it.

[stevedmc]

Do EFI fuel pumps need a reliable ground connection in order to work?

[sean]

Do EFI fuel pumps need a reliable ground connection in order to work?

Yes.

[Spittybug]

Do EFI fuel pumps need a reliable ground connection in order to work?

ALL electrical devices require proper connections to work. Unless of course you have a magic car. :wiggle:

[Ron]

ALL electrical devices require proper connections to work. Unless of course you have a magic car. :wiggle:Not if it has the correct number of Maybe-Gates!

[Farrar]

ALL electrical devices require proper connections to work. Unless of course you have a magic car. :wiggle:

All DeLoreans are magic: they make money vanish! ;-)

Farrar

[sean]

Mike's conversion discussion has been moved here:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2080-Opethmike-Z7U-manifold-custom-conversion

[sean]

Now that we've moved things to were they need to be, thread closed.

You EFI guys need to thank Owen for championing this effort to set all this up. I may do the grunt work but he is the brain & push behind it.