VIN 4519: 14-year "garage find"

[Rich_NYS]

I brought 4519 home today; it's a very nice condition non-runner, was "running when parked" ~14 years ago.

Oct. '81 build
Grey interior
Grooved hood
25,362 (I believe) original miles
Three(?) owners
Always garaged, and appears well cared-for.


I began the purchasing process in October; the PO is a really nice older guy and we have become friends. I hope to return for a visit someday and take him for a ride. I intend to put this car on the road and sell 4728.

Here is an Andrew-style list of the good, bad, and ugly...

The Good:

The stainless: close to #1 condition
The interior: close to #1 condition
"Always garaged"
Binnacle and dash are in perfect condition
Miles appear to be original at 25,362
Original trip reset is still intact
Fascias are very straight
Haven't yet found a rodent nest
Solid frame
Engine turns freely by hand
OEM fuse box has no melted positions
OEM Craig radio
Sunshade louvre is in perfect condition
It appears the roofbox is secure
Small stash of parts



The Bad:

It's dirty/dusty
Engine cover stay is broken
Leaking steering rack
A few areas of surface rust on the frame
Passenger side tow loop broken-off
Sagging headliners
Needs tires
Needs a few lugnuts replaced
Antenna doesn't work
Hood release is wonky
Original coolant bottle
Door lights and one taillight doesn't work
Steering column canopy needs a threaded insert replaced
Needs a lift piston set
Steering wheel and hazard switch are upside down


The Ugly:

Needs a fuel system rebuild, and smells like bad gas
Brake & clutch hydraulics need rebuilding


ICYMI...In my other thread I mentioned Jimmy sent me his working K-Jet parts, so that should put me miles ahead since it appears the running issue is fuel-related. Thanks again Jimmy!

[Rich_NYS]

"Day 1 pics:"

(The "line" on the binnacle is something on my lens.)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/1a232c772501dedf7a2470630730bac0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/0d82be1bdc0f5f4a919866cc5a804250.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/9d578094ed923c9b04abc558a83e1acb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/3089781ac3a3b27d41d95cd4bb3d3f9d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/4e2501b90bacfcee33ef5b0e117928c5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/f7d61e46b8da751c8f7a5aac857df6d1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/2aaf6259e23d87d42430191935fb9d87.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/e50910824a6dd9cee2cf1b7339c46094.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/c139bc502e2148cb1280c0f5a77a979c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/e98d5f4af4f3ebe383f906a92a2870a3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/1be0528eb8cca7550432b76486b77603.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/804a43da6bd17dcc7a18f40037b0447a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191126/581b0026287bc0152a5bdf9f29e6d30b.jpg

[Michael]

If it was running when parked then it's just ran out of gas. Put some gas in it and enjoy!

[Rich_NYS]

If it was running when parked then it's just ran out of gas. Pit some gas in it and enjoy!

LOL...right on, brother!

[powerline84]

No problem Rich glad to help. I'll get the other 2 fuel lines out to you this weekend hopefully

[Domi]

Congratulation on your purchase :aniclap:

[Rich_NYS]

Today I was fortunate to have nice weather: sunny and high 40's. I really wanted to wash the car, but since it's a non-runner and my driveway is a small hill, it's not a good situation.

I came up with an idea that worked: I rolled the car out of my garage to wash it, and used a "come long" winch to pull it back uphill and into my garage when I was done.

The first wash is really satisfying. I can't do much with my arm in a sling, but getting the car clean felt very productive. My 11-year old daughter helped me wash it, and took charge of winching the car back into the garage. She had mentioned wanting to participate in the restoration, so she was pretty jazzed to have an important job on day one.

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[Josh]

The car looks beautiful!

[opethmike]

Wow, what a time capsule.

[Rich_NYS]

Did some one-handed work today, assessing the tank, and removing the pump & sender so I could seal the openings. My garage isn't so stinky now.

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[Michael]

I refuse to be impressed until you injure BOTH shoulders and rewire the fuse box with your feet.

[Rich_NYS]

I refuse to be impressed until you injure BOTH shoulders and rewire the fuse box with your feet.

lol....don't jinx me!

I didn't post a fuse box pic over here...looks nice, so I'm good for now. I'll attempt the accumulator with my feet if that becomes necessary. :strongman:

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[louielouie2000]

Rich, you're living my dream! I've always wanted to find a cosmetically clean very original car & recommission it. My brother actually tracked down a hibernating November '81 7000 series car for me in similar condition several months back, but the owner decided he wasn't ready to part with it yet. Good luck on bringing this one back to life, and please keep us updated on it's progress!

[Rich_NYS]

Rich, you're living my dream! I've always wanted to find a cosmetically clean very original car & recommission it. My brother actually tracked down a hibernating November '81 7000 series car for me in similar condition several months back, but the owner decided he wasn't ready to part with it yet. Good luck on bringing this one back to life, and please keep us updated on it's progress!

:thumbup:

Hopefully when the owner is ready, you'll be first in mind!

I think the only cosmetics I'll need to address are the headliners, steering column canopy nut, binnacle lens bezel, and shifter boot. There's also a very small "tear" in the console...I should be able to fix it with a drop of glue.






I'm still working with one arm; my daughter helped install a new a battery, and removed all the fuses. I'm going to clean & "lube" each fuse, and check each circuit as I reinstall them. The fuse box is in great shape, so I'm feeling pretty good about everything being in good shape electrically.

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I also began removing the headliners. I was able to remove the door headliners, but I'll need help with the rest. I remember being down that rabbit hole; while I'm in there I'll get into the roofbox & related items, and will be tempted to replace the visor mounts as well.

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[Bitsyncmaster]

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Looks like your fuse #10 has had some problem. My guess as to the OEM fuse block failure is the terminals do not hold the fuse pins tight enough. I remember replacing my fuse block with the DMCH unit feeling how much tighter the new pins hold the fuse.

[Rich_NYS]

Looks like your fuse #10 has had some problem. My guess as to the OEM fuse block failure is the terminals do not hold the fuse pins tight enough. I remember replacing my fuse block with the DMCH unit feeling how much tighter the new pins hold the fuse.

Great eye, Dave! I didn't notice that, I'll check the fit when I get back to the fuses. I did notice my daughter struggled with most of them (especially #7,) so I'll compare position #10 to the others.

For now, I'm keeping the car "stock," so I'll need to order an RPM relay of course, and maybe a few other things. I'm going to use a Tahoe pump module, but haven't yet decided on a sender.



This was with the parts that came with the car, is it any use to you without the cover?
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[Bitsyncmaster]

Great eye, Dave! I didn't notice that, I'll check the fit when I get back to the fuses. I did notice my daughter struggled with most of them (especially #7,) so I'll compare position #10 to the others.

For now, I'm keeping the car "stock," so I'll need to order an RPM relay of course, and maybe a few other things. I'm going to use a Tahoe pump module, but haven't yet decided on a sender.



This was with the parts that came with the car, is it any use to you without the cover?
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If you want that RPM relay to be updated, that will work with it returned without the case.

I run the Tahoe pump with the Tahoe sender with my fuel gauge ECU.

[Mark D]

Congrats on the new car Rich! I'm looking forward to following along with another epic build. Your first car turned out amazing and this one looks to be in really pristine cosmetic condition. Can't wait to see how this one ends up :)

[Josh]

I run the Tahoe pump with the Tahoe sender with my fuel gauge ECU.

I feel like this is the best option right now. In terms of both price and reliability.

[Rich_NYS]

I feel like this is the best option right now. In terms of both price and reliability.

I got a pump from Autozone: 20% promo code discount, and just received ~$15 in rewards. :rock_on: I have a few different spare fuel senders; I'll either use one, or sell them & use Dave's ECU.



Congrats on the new car Rich! I'm looking forward to following along with another epic build. Your first car turned out amazing and this one looks to be in really pristine cosmetic condition. Can't wait to see how this one ends up :)

Thanks Mark, I'm starting to get a ROI on all the tools you convinced me to buy! haha



If you want that RPM relay to be updated, that will work with it returned without the case.

I run the Tahoe pump with the Tahoe sender with my fuel gauge ECU.

I'm planning to send the intact RPM relay from the car, I was wondering if you have a use for that spare one with the cover missing.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I'm planning to send the intact RPM relay from the car, I was wondering if you have a use for that spare one with the cover missing.

Yes I may have a few extra covers since occasionally I get a return with a broken guide pin around the connector.

[Rich_NYS]

DMCH verified my key code[s,] so I was able to confirm the door writing is accurate.

I wanted to confirm because the PO had replaced the ignition switch assembly, I wanted to make sure the proper code is written on the door for future generations. The PO thought he recalled swapping the cylinders; I verified the ignition key worked in all locks, so we figured his memory to be correct. I think the switch portion was bad but he bought the whole assembly and swapped the cylinders versus changing all the locks.

I have the previous assembly with matching key; I'm pretty sure the switch portion is bad, but the [NLA] assembly is good, and the ignition cylinder & key are new.

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[Rich_NYS]

DMCH verified my key code[s,] so I was able to confirm the door writing is accurate.

I wanted to confirm because the PO had replaced the ignition switch assembly, I wanted to make sure the proper code is written on the door for future generations. The PO thought he recalled swapping the cylinders; I verified the ignition key worked in all locks, so we figured his memory to be correct. I think the switch portion was bad but he bought the whole assembly and swapped the cylinders versus changing all the locks.

I have the previous assembly with matching key; I'm pretty sure the switch portion is bad, but the [NLA] assembly is good, and the ignition cylinder & key are new.

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Today I removed the steering canopy, preparing to replace the missing knurled inserts. While in there, I looked at the ignition lock assembly. I'm thinking the PO might not have replaced any part of it and he bought the spare assembly preparing to replace it but he (or his mechanic) got stuck trying to figure out how to remove the cylinder, reassembled the canopy, and tried a bunch of spray (which ultimately worked.). The ignition lock has a lot of lock-eze type spray, and it works fine. The canopy had been removed at some point, and the black trim cap is missing.



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[Rich_NYS]

Tonite I tested everything electrical that I was able to test (in its non-running state.) When I first viewed the car there was no battery in it, so I ran 25' jumper cables from my vehicle outside the garage to the battery compartment. I tested most things at that time, but forgot a bunch of stuff as well.

Testing each fused circuit, I found some things not working properly:

-The rear defogger switch feels broken
-Driver's side window appears to be off track (both motors run, switches are a bit flaky)
-Door plunger switches are a little flaky (I had the same issue on 10372 & 4728, cleaning the contacts fixed it)
-The antenna doesn't go up, but I hear the motor run when I turn on the radio
-No reverse lights
-One brake light bulb out
-Console clock doesn't work (cigar lighter works)



The horns work, but they're OEM.....I had forgotten how ridiculous they sound.
The radio works and so do [at least] one front & one rear speaker, but I really couldn't tell (sitting in the passenger seat) if all 4 work or not. I didn't take any time to figure out how the "balance" function works (or if there is one) on the Craig radio.

[dmcerik]

Hey! We're Delorean cousins. Glad to see it's getting the attention it deserves. I've got a lot of spare parts from many past parts cars. If you need something and can't find it let me know and I'll see what I can find.

[Rich_NYS]

Hey! We're Delorean cousins. Glad to see it's getting the attention it deserves. I've got a lot of spare parts from many past parts cars. If you need something and can't find it let me know and I'll see what I can find.

Thanks Erik!

Your VIN is the closest I've seen to one of mine...glad to meet you.

[mr_maxime]

-No reverse lights
-One brake light bulb out


I know on mine the problem with the reverse lights was the old taillight boards and not the switch.

[Rich_NYS]

I know on mine the problem with the reverse lights was the old taillight boards and not the switch.

I need to get into the housings anyway, so I'll check that first....thanks!

[Jonathan]

Your THIRD resto, Rich?!?! It all started innocently enough, didn't it? :)


Tonite I tested everything electrical that I was able to test (in its non-running state.) When I first viewed the car there was no battery in it, so I ran 25' jumper cables from my vehicle outside the garage to the battery compartment. I tested most things at that time, but forgot a bunch of stuff as well.

Testing each fused circuit, I found some things not working properly:

-The rear defogger switch feels broken
-Driver's side window appears to be off track (both motors run, switches are a bit flaky)
-Door plunger switches are a little flaky (I had the same issue on 10372 & 4728, cleaning the contacts fixed it)
-The antenna doesn't go up, but I hear the motor run when I turn on the radio
-No reverse lights
-One brake light bulb out
-Console clock doesn't work (cigar lighter works)

The horns work, but they're OEM.....I had forgotten how ridiculous they sound.
The radio works and so do [at least] one front & one rear speaker, but I really couldn't tell (sitting in the passenger seat) if all 4 work or not. I didn't take any time to figure out how the "balance" function works (or if there is one) on the Craig radio.

I didn't have even close to enough patience to get those little bits back together inside a broken defrogger switch. But it's apparently doable. Here's the instructions.

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And the Craig radio manual... I thought I had something that would show that. I guess I don't. I have this service manual, but it's a mess of electrical diagrams and not much useful for explaining the knobs. The knob on the right is the fade one (front to back), left knob is balance (left to right). I think it's either a rear collar on each knob that does the secondary function or you pull for one and push for the other. I haven't had my Craig in the car for years!!

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[Rich_NYS]

Your THIRD resto, Rich?!?! It all started innocently enough, didn't it? :)



I didn't have even close to enough patience to get those little bits back together inside a broken defrogger switch. But it's apparently doable. Here's the instructions.

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And the Craig radio manual... I thought I had something that would show that. I guess I don't. I have this service manual, but it's a mess of electrical diagrams and not much useful for explaining the knobs. The knob on the right is the fade one (front to back), left knob is balance (left to right). I think it's either a rear collar on each knob that does the secondary function or you pull for one and push for the other. I haven't had my Craig in the car for years!!

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Pretty crazy, right? I couldn't pass on this one....it's really nice.

I hope to start making progress on it soon, tonight a friend came over to relocate the sunshade louvre for me. I'm only able to use only my left arm while my right shoulder recovers from surgery. The louvre was sitting in place, unattached, from when it was removed for transporting. Now that it's moved, I can get into the engine bay and try doing some one-handed work.


Thanks for the manuals, I'll try working on the defogger switch this winter. The Craig manual is pretty in-depth for sure, wow!

I was able to adjust the fader and it appears the passenger side speakers both work (and sound pretty good, actually,) but neither of the driver's side work. I'm not sure which is more odd; that both passenger speakers work, or that only the driver's side doesn't....lol.

[WHO1DMC]

Have you checked the connection point behind the radio? I have a similar problem with that from time to time. I haven't taken the time to pull mine apart to clean or fix.

[Andrew]

Pretty crazy, right? I couldn't pass on this one....it's really nice.

I hope to start making progress on it soon, tonight a friend came over to relocate the sunshade louvre for me. I'm only able to use only my left arm while my right shoulder recovers from surgery. The louvre was sitting in place, unattached, from when it was removed for transporting. Now that it's moved, I can get into the engine bay and try doing some one-handed work.


Thanks for the manuals, I'll try working on the defogger switch this winter. The Craig manual is pretty in-depth for sure, wow!

I was able to adjust the fader and it appears the passenger side speakers both work (and sound pretty good, actually,) but neither of the driver's side work. I'm not sure which is more odd; that both passenger speakers work, or that only the driver's side doesn't....lol.

With regard to the radio, I would try cleaning the potentimeters with potentiometer cleaner. I had a similar issue with my Craig. Cleaning it up helped considerably.

[powerline84]

So I had Dimitri rebuild my radio and i put all new speakers in . I still get occasional complete right side speaker cut out. I at this point think that my origional speaker wire must have some mouse chewing damage seing as as how my origional engine and tail light harness had most of it's insulation missing. Eventually I will run all new speaker wire .

[Rich_NYS]

I'll try both; the potentiometers, and the wiring. If I'm able to get into the speaker wiring with some help from my daughter, I'll try swapping things around to trouble isolate.

[Rich_NYS]

I cleaning the tank; it wasn't too bad, and my daughter helped me with the parts I couldn't reach left-handed.

I pumped out the fuel and removed the baffle assembly:

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Wiped with rags without using cleaner:

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2-3 rounds of acetone with rags:

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The vent tube moves around, but doesn't come out, I'm wondering if I need to do something about that. It's also a little cruddy on the end, I'll clean it if I can reach it.

[Rich_NYS]

Made some progress today:

-Installed a Tahoe pump (thanks Chris.)
-Diagnosed no power to the pump (failed RPM relay.)
-Tested the fuel system.

Four injectors are bad, but the fuel distributor appears to be ok. I swapped the two good injectors with the four bad ones, jumped the RPM relay, and tested the spray pattern on all lines....seems to be ok.

After working on a carbed car for the past few years, I got spoiled. Removing the injectors was a PITA.

Jimmy (2706) sent me his Kjet parts; I'm going to start replacing parts, then hope to attempt a "first fire" this week. At this time, I'm pretty hopeful the non-running issue is due to the two things I found today.

[mr_maxime]

I got a couple of rpm relays available if you need one. Got a Hervey one and a newer one from dmcmw

[Rich_NYS]

I got a couple of rpm relays available if you need one. Got a Hervey one and a newer one from dmcmw

I had a replacement, but thanks anyway....much appreciated!

[powerline84]

Heck yeah forward progress ! Much better news then the death of the best drummer of all time .

[Rich_NYS]

I need to remove the black rubber seal from the injectors....do they just pry off?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I need to remove the black rubber seal from the injectors....do they just pry off?

Yes they just slid off but OEM ones are pretty hard to slid off. I just cut them.

[David T]

Old seals can get rock hard and be difficult to remove. If you do decide to cut them off be careful not to damage the injector. The seals fit over a groove in the injector to hold them in place. When the seals get rock hard they shrink and allow a lot of air to leak. The injector and seal should be a snug fit into the sleeve. That way you know it won't leak. The clip is important. In the event of a backfire it prevents the injector from popping out.

[Rich_NYS]

Yes they just slid off but OEM ones are pretty hard to slid off. I just cut them.


Old seals can get rock hard and be difficult to remove. If you do decide to cut them off be careful not to damage the injector. The seals fit over a groove in the injector to hold them in place. When the seals get rock hard they shrink and allow a lot of air to leak. The injector and seal should be a snug fit into the sleeve. That way you know it won't leak. The clip is important. In the event of a backfire it prevents the injector from popping out.


Thanks guys, I ended up not needed them after all (I had spares and din't realize it.)

[Rich_NYS]

4519 is running!


Everything I worked on (to get it running) was fuel-related:

-Cleaned the tank & lines
-New fuel pump & fuel filter
-Swapped the RPM relay, fuel distributor (w/lines & WUR attached) with Jimmy's parts off 2706.



The engine sounds really good; the valvetrain is quiet and the motor sounds "tight." It "hunted" a bit for a few minutes, then had a steady idle.

I think it could have a leaking head gasket (there's a lot of heavy white exhaust.) I also think I caused a vacuum leak somewhere; it was idling around 900 with the air cleaner off, but slowed down when I covered the hose to the oil fill. When I put the air cleaner on, I think I wrestled a line off somewhere....RPM's went to ~1100 and stayed there with/without the air cleaner.

[powerline84]

This is awesome news ! Congrats bro!

[AugustneverEnds]

:cheers:

Another DMC rises like the phoenix!

I presume when it was running it was bone chillingly cold in your garage; hopefully all of the exhaust you saw was just decades worth of moisture burning off rather than a head gasket leak. Fingers crossed...

[Riley88]

great to hear, congrats! Let us see photoooss

[Rich_NYS]

This is awesome news ! Congrats bro!

Thanks for everything man, the parts really helped. :rock_on::rock_on:



:cheers:

Another DMC rises like the phoenix!

I presume when it was running it was bone chillingly cold in your garage; hopefully all of the exhaust you saw was just decades worth of moisture burning off rather than a head gasket leak. Fingers crossed...


Good point, it was in the teens. Tonight I ran it and think you're right....might just be the cold weather. I didn't smell coolant in the exhaust, so I'm remaining optimistic!




great to hear, congrats! Let us see photoooss

Thanks, I haven't taken pics lately, but here's a before & after of the transplanted fuel distributor & lines from Jimmy's car:

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Earlier in the thread there are some pics of the fuel system cleanup.

[powerline84]

No problem . I think you posted 2 before pics lol

[Rich_NYS]

No problem . I think you posted 2 before pics lolHaha...I did. Can't edit on this forum.

After:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200121/07560e7920f922e3d46f7adac2e30b43.jpg

[Rich_NYS]

I think I have all vacuum hoses connected with no leaks.

The idle is very high, ~1200-ish IIRC.

Idles a bit rough when cold, around 5000-7000. Once warm, it steadily climbs. I do think the throttle spool needs attention, but I also noticed if I push on the idle speed screw/lever thing (at the microswitch,) I can get the idle to normalize.

I'm wondering if the idle speed is something I should mess with first, or only after clearing a few other items (?)




I also noticed the radiator fans don't come on, so I'll diagnose that asap as well.....I think I have air in the system.

[powerline84]

Those switches go bad fairly often if they are original. I think I sent you mine but it was acting up . I am not sure . The one that goes on the throttle body was newer but the one that is the idle kickdown switch on the throttle spool was origional to my car and I don't think it was working. I believe they are available new though.
Also I had the same issue wirth my car with the fans not coming on. I blead the system at the radiator first then the water pump and it fixed it. That otterstat is sensitive to bubbles. Mckeens new digital otterstat looks pretty cool.

[Rich_NYS]

Those switches go bad fairly often if they are original. I think I sent you mine but it was acting up . I am not sure . The one that goes on the throttle body was newer but the one that is the idle kickdown switch on the throttle spool was origional to my car and I don't think it was working. I believe they are available new though.
Also I had the same issue wirth my car with the fans not coming on. I blead the system at the radiator first then the water pump and it fixed it. That otterstat is sensitive to bubbles. Mckeens new digital otterstat looks pretty cool.

I jumped the otterstat and the fans came on, so I'll bleed the system tonight....I'm pretty sure there's air in there.

[Rich_NYS]

I got the air out, fans are cycling now.

The car runs nice, but I have an idling & cold start issue. I think the microswitch is bad....it doesn't seem to affect the idle when I trip it.

[powerline84]

I noticed when I took mine off that it was sticking and for a while mine was idling high. Makes me wonder if it was the switch to.

[Jonathan]

Check the "Tetris puzzle piece" looking electrical connectors for the full throttle microswitches as well. These are the microswitches that the throttle spool rotates around and pushes into when you press the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. Manual transmission cars just have the one microswitch ("with flap") and automatics have a second microswitches stacked right on top the first. That microswitch can be sticking as well and cause idling problems. You can disconnect it at the connector while you troubleshoot as you don't need them if only idling.

If you can physically push the end of the throttle spool lever arm in when idling and change the RPM's, then yes, you need to make some kind of small adjustment to either the little peg that pushes into the metal tab end of the idle speed motor microswitch or the peg below that which is the one to stop the whole lever arm from rotating back too far as it comes to rest. The rest position adjustment should be done first and let you have the butterfly valves inside the intake come to rest completely closing off the air (they rotate along with that lever arm and you can see them doing it if you have the "W" pipe off). Then adjust the other peg to engage the idle speed motor microswitch just as the lever arm comes to rest with that first peg.

[Rich_NYS]

Check the "Tetris puzzle piece" looking electrical connectors for the full throttle microswitches as well. These are the microswitches that the throttle spool rotates around and pushes into when you press the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. Manual transmission cars just have the one microswitch ("with flap") and automatics have a second microswitches stacked right on top the first. That microswitch can be sticking as well and cause idling problems. You can disconnect it at the connector while you troubleshoot as you don't need them if only idling.

If you can physically push the end of the throttle spool lever arm in when idling and change the RPM's, then yes, you need to make some kind of small adjustment to either the little peg that pushes into the metal tab end of the idle speed motor microswitch or the peg below that which is the one to stop the whole lever arm from rotating back too far as it comes to rest. The rest position adjustment should be done first and let you have the butterfly valves inside the intake come to rest completely closing off the air (they rotate along with that lever arm and you can see them doing it if you have the "W" pipe off). Then adjust the other peg to engage the idle speed motor microswitch just as the lever arm comes to rest with that first peg.

Thanks Jonathan,

I noticed there's no change to the idle when I toggle the microswitch while warm...does that indicate a faulty switch, or should I do the same test while cold?

I'm thinking I should just try changing the switch...

[Jonathan]

Thanks Jonathan,

I noticed there's no change to the idle when I toggle the microswitch while warm...does that indicate a faulty switch, or should I do the same test while cold?

I'm thinking I should just try changing the switch...

Are you talking about the idle speed microswitch when you say toggling the microswitch?

If you're talking about the full throttle microswitch, I don't recall what happens when you press on it while the car is sitting there idling. That switch is not affected by what temperature the engine is at. As far as I know. When you floor it and the throttle spool engages that microswitch, it is supposed to "enrich the fuel mixture" i.e. add a little more gas. It should do that whether the engine is warm or cold. If it doesn't change the idle by pressing on it, it might be seized on. So disconnecting the wiring at that Tetris connector would be a good next step. Do it while the engine is running and see if the idle changes from high to something lower when you disconnect it.

[Rich_NYS]

Are you talking about the idle speed microswitch when you say toggling the microswitch?~snip~


Yes, the idle speed microswitch. When I pressed it, it "clicks" but there was no change to the idle. The engine was warm.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes, the idle speed microswitch. When I pressed it, it "clicks" but there was no change to the idle. The engine was warm.

As far as I know pressing the idle switch does nothing to the idle ECU or idle motor. It should add the vacuum advance on a warm engine and you should hear or see that change the idle for a moment. Have you verified you get vacuum in the hose going to the advance on a warm engine? Disconnecting the electrical plug on the advance solenoid also should let vacuum get to the advance.

[Rich_NYS]

I don't know what the idle speed microswitch does, but since the idle doesn't change when I toggle it, I tested it with an ohmeter (seems fine.)

I have some kind of cold start issue, so I tried the plug swap. I had to remove the WUR so the the CSV plug would reach....seems to have no effect.

[Jonathan]

As far as I know pressing the idle switch does nothing to the idle ECU or idle motor. It should add the vacuum advance on a warm engine and you should hear or see that change the idle for a moment. Have you verified you get vacuum in the hose going to the advance on a warm engine? Disconnecting the electrical plug on the advance solenoid also should let vacuum get to the advance.


I don't know what the idle speed microswitch does, but since the idle doesn't change when I toggle it, I tested it with an ohmeter (seems fine.)

I have some kind of cold start issue, so I tried the plug swap. I had to remove the WUR so the the CSV plug would reach....seems to have no effect.

Please look on about page 78 of the technical manual for how the idle speed system works.

Dave, for someone that designs and sells replacement electrical components to the DeLorean community, I'm a little shocked and frightened that you don't already know this.

[Rich_NYS]

Please look on about page 78 of the technical manual for how the idle speed system works.

Dave, for someone that designs and sells replacement electrical components to the DeLorean community, I'm a little shocked and frightened that you don't already know this.


Thanks Jon, I read through that section and it's fairly clear now. Thanks even more for reminding me to use the TM, I have 2 hard copies and have overlooked it as a valuable resource.

I'm digging into the TM now, and will try to resolve my cold start issue.

Based on what I'm reading, I think I should read an electrical signal at the ISM plug with the key on & idle speed micro switch pressed. I have no voltage at the plug, so maybe that's where I should be "picking up the trail."

Thanks again for "teaching this man to fish," yo!

[JETS 81 DMC]

Rich,

Just a thought and my .02

Have you checked electrical connections for corrosion to make sure you are getting 100% contact? :hmm:
I would do that first then check switch with a multi meter to make sure it is functioning.

You are making some great progress. How is your arm? Close to being back to 100% :cheers:

[Bitsyncmaster]

Please look on about page 78 of the technical manual for how the idle speed system works.

Dave, for someone that designs and sells replacement electrical components to the DeLorean community, I'm a little shocked and frightened that you don't already know this.

That statement that the idle system is only operational when the idle switch is closed is not true. Pull a wire off the switch and start up your cold engine and see that nothing changes in the engine warm up idle speed. After the engine warms up you will get ignition advance at idle which may cause the idle motor to run out of control to bring the idle speed down but it still is trying to hold that 775 RPM.

[Ron]

$.02

Rich, I think you meant 500 to 700, not 5000 to 7000.

If you are sure there are no vacuum leaks, check out the 3 switches (see below).
If no luck, I'd put a CIS fuel pressure gauge on it and check out the pressures...the WUR/CPR affects the idle greatly. It basically acts like a choke in a carb system.

Full Throttle (or WOT "Wide Open Throttle") Switch-
Disconnected, the B (Black) wire should show Ground and LG wire should have 12V, with key ON.
Closing the switch forces 50° - 60° CO Dwell, by grounding the LG wire, thereby enriching the AFR. This will change the engine's RPM/sound IFF the coolant is above 59°F. (Check warm because the Lambda Thermal Switch also forces the dwell to 50° - 60° when below 59°F...)

Kick Down Switch (Used with Automatic Transmission only)-
Disconnected, the B wire should show Ground and LGG wire should have 12V, with key ON.
Closing the switch requests a down shift by grounding the LLG wire.
Has no direct effect on the engine.

Idle Speed Switch-
Disconnected, the B wire should show Ground, the BU and BLG wires should both have 12V, with key ON. A diode in the BLG wire isolates the two circuits.
Closing the switch enables the Idle ECU and disables the Vacuum Advance, by grounding the two circuits. (The Thermal Vacuum Control Valve also disables the Vacuum Advance whenever the coolant is below 104°F...)

If you raise the idle manually just enough to open the switch and hold it STEADY, pressing the switch will change the engine's RPM/sound, warm or cold (engages the Idle ECU).
If the engine is warm (and held steady above idle), there should be vacuum at the distributor. Then pressing the switch will energize the Idle Solenoid and block the vacuum at the distributor.

[Rich_NYS]

Rich,

Just a thought and my .02

Have you checked electrical connections for corrosion to make sure you are getting 100% contact? :hmm:
I would do that first then check switch with a multi meter to make sure it is functioning.

You are making some great progress. How is your arm? Close to being back to 100% :cheers:Thanks Mr. Jim,

I checked the connections where I tested components, but not throughout the entire circuit (i.e bulkhead connections.) I'll do that asap, then will test for voltage as I go.

I'll familiarize with CIS and figure it out. I'm reading the TM, searching the forum, and will study the schematics.

At this point, it appears I only have a cold-start issue (hard start, surges wildly...etc,) but runs very well after about 5 minutes. I'm thinking it can't be too difficult to figure out.

As I learn the Kjet system, I continue to believe those who criticize Bill and/or carb conversions are jealous haters. Lol!

My arm is doing ok, thanks....I'm only about 50% recovered, so working on some things are a struggle.

[Rich_NYS]

$.02

Rich, I think you meant 500 to 700, not 5000 to 7000.

If you are sure there are no vacuum leaks, check out the 3 switches (see below).
If no luck, I'd put a CIS fuel pressure gauge on it and check out the pressures...the WUR/CPR affects the idle greatly. It basically acts like a choke in a carb system.

Full Throttle (or WOT "Wide Open Throttle") Switch-
Disconnected, the B (Black) wire should show Ground and LG wire should have 12V, with key ON.
Closing the switch forces 50° - 60° CO Dwell, by grounding the LG wire, thereby enriching the AFR. This will change the engine's RPM/sound IFF the coolant is above 59°F. (Check warm because the Lambda Thermal Switch also forces the dwell to 50° - 60° when below 59°F...)

Kick Down Switch (Used with Automatic Transmission only)-
Disconnected, the B wire should show Ground and LGG wire should have 12V, with key ON.
Closing the switch requests a down shift by grounding the LLG wire.
Has no direct effect on the engine.

Idle Speed Switch-
Disconnected, the B wire should show Ground, the BU and BLG wires should both have 12V, with key ON. A diode in the BLG wire isolates the two circuits.
Closing the switch enables the Idle ECU and disables the Vacuum Advance, by grounding the two circuits. (The Thermal Vacuum Control Valve also disables the Vacuum Advance whenever the coolant is below 104°F...)

If you raise the idle manually just enough to open the switch and hold it STEADY, pressing the switch will change the engine's RPM/sound, warm or cold (engages the Idle ECU).
If the engine is warm (and held steady above idle), there should be vacuum at the distributor. Then pressing the switch will energize the Idle Solenoid and block the vacuum at the distributor.Excellent info...thanks man, I'll check these things asap.

BTW, so far I think my head gaskets are ok.

[Ron]

$ .03

Just check the voltages at the components. If they are OK you are wasting your time checking the rest (except for intermittent problems...or preventive maintenance). Use an ice pick tester instead of a volt meter. (They don't show if the circuit will handle the load, E.G., a meter may show 12V on a circuit when it will not light a mini light bulb...)


Did you pressure test the coolant system?

[Rich_NYS]

$ .03

Just check the voltages at the components. If they are OK you are wasting your time checking the rest (except for intermittent problems...or preventive maintenance). Use an ice pick tester instead of a volt meter. (They don't show if the circuit will handle the load, E.G., a meter may show 12V on a circuit when it will not light a mini light bulb...)


Did you pressure test the coolant system?Roger that on the test light, I have one and will start using it instead of a VOM.

Clarification: "checking at the bulkhead...etc" referred to checking for corrosion/continuity if testing at the components showed no reading.

I didn't pressure-test yet; I found a few leaking coupler hoses (and air,) so I didn't bother. Once I know the system is thoroughly bled and not leaking, I'll pressure-test it.

[Rich_NYS]

Full Throttle (or WOT "Wide Open Throttle") Switch-
Disconnected, the B (Black) wire should show Ground and LG wire should have 12V, with key ON.
Closing the switch forces 50° - 60° CO Dwell, by grounding the LG wire, thereby enriching the AFR. This will change the engine's RPM/sound IFF the coolant is above 59°F. (Check warm because the Lambda Thermal Switch also forces the dwell to 50° - 60° when below 59°F...)

Black shows Ground
LG has 0V with key on.




Idle Speed Switch-
Disconnected, the B wire should show Ground, the BU and BLG wires should both have 12V, with key ON.

Black shows ground
B/LG shows 12V (Test light looked kinda weak, VOM shows 12V)
My switch doesn't have a BU, there's only 2 wires.
I hear a "click" somewhere [not from the switch] when testing the B/LG to ground, and when testing to Black(Ground.)


FWIW, I also tested at the plug to the ISM. The center had 12V, both outside contacts showed Ground.

[Rich_NYS]

Black shows Ground
LG has 0V with key on.




Black shows ground
B/LG shows 12V (Test light looked kinda weak, VOM shows 12V)
My switch doesn't have a BU, there's only 2 wires.
I hear a "click" somewhere [not from the switch] when testing the B/LG to ground, and when testing to Black(Ground.)


FWIW, I also tested at the plug to the ISM. The center had 12V, both outside contacts showed Ground.



Additional observations:

-ISM doesn't "vibrate." I connected a spare....no change.
-Frequency valve doesn't make a buzzing noise when jumpering the RPM relay socket (brown wire - white/red wires.)

[Bitsyncmaster]

Additional observations:

-ISM doesn't "vibrate." I connected a spare....no change.
-Frequency valve doesn't make a buzzing noise when jumpering the RPM relay socket (brown wire - white/red wires.)

ISM could be a bad connection or ECU may be bad.

Make sure your lambda relay is the proper type. That relay is not the same as all the other relays. A wrong one will stop the FV from buzzing.

[Rich_NYS]

ISM could be a bad connection or ECU may be bad.

Make sure your lambda relay is the proper type. That relay is not the same as all the other relays. A wrong one will stop the FV from buzzing.I just came back inside to update; I swapped the idle ECU and the ISM vibrates now. The card started cold, but with a really high idle...gonna review a few things.

I'll check the lambda relay next.

Dave, safe to assume a carb conversion doesn't use an idle ECU, correct?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I just came back inside to update; I swapped the idle ECU and the ISM vibrates now. The card started cold, but with a really high idle...gonna review a few things.

I'll check the lambda relay next.

Dave, safe to assume a carb conversion doesn't use an idle ECU, correct?

There is no reason a carb could not use the idle system but I have not seen anyone do that yet. Not sure how well it would work.

[Rich_NYS]

There is no reason a carb could not use the idle system but I have not seen anyone do that yet. Not sure how well it would work.I took the idle ECU out of my carbed car, wondering if I can run it without for now...

How do I know if I have the wrong lambda relay.....is it visibly different?

[Bitsyncmaster]

I took the idle ECU out of my carbed car, wondering if I can run it without for now...

How do I know if I have the wrong lambda relay.....is it visibly different?

The OEM lambda relay is a lower profile unit. Some relays show how the contacts are arranged with a schematic printed on the relay. A normal relay the center pin is normally connected to the power pin and goes open circuit when the relay is energized. The lambda relay has two pins normally open and both connect to the power pin when energized. I never could figure out why they used that special relay. I just rewired the socket so I could use the normal relay.

[Ron]

Roger that on the test light, I have one and will start using it instead of a VOM.

Clarification: "checking at the bulkhead...etc" referred to checking for corrosion/continuity if testing at the components showed no reading.

I didn't pressure-test yet; I found a few leaking coupler hoses (and air,) so I didn't bother. Once I know the system is thoroughly bled and not leaking, I'll pressure-test it.


Black shows Ground
LG has 0V with key on.
If it was warm, I would check the LG wire at the pin 6 (33 in chart) of the 7 pin White bulkhead connector. Otherwise, it is probably OK since the thermal throttle enrichment switch could be grounding it...

Black shows ground
B/LG shows 12V (Test light looked kinda weak, VOM shows 12V)
My switch doesn't have a BU, there's only 2 wires.
I hear a "click" somewhere [not from the switch] when testing the B/LG to ground, and when testing to Black(Ground.) Unplug the Idle Solenoid and see if the click goes away.
Electrically, the BLG supplies ground for the Idle Speed Control Unit. The BU is tied to the BLG wire, runs to a capacitor and on to the Vacuum Advance Solenoid, supplying ground with the switch. (BLG-ISM is pin 6 (49) at the 9 pin White bulkhead connector...I don't remember where the tie is, physically.)

[Ron]

I swapped the idle ECU and the ISM vibrates now.
Damit, you were supposed to find that the BLG wire had no power first.:)

Good job!

[Rich_NYS]

I'm letting the engine cool so I can cold-start again tonight.

My cold start issue is no longer hard starting/wildly surging.....now it's high idle (2000.) Early observation: while at high/cold idle, the plate was cracked open a bit. After warm-up, it only opens when I rev the engine.

[Rich_NYS]

Is there a way to test the lambda relay? I want to be sure I have the proper unit. The car came with a bunch of relays, so I'm sure some/all have been changed.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200125/34f8e746450a642fe1609489cf91f939.jpg

[Bitsyncmaster]

Is there a way to test the lambda relay? I want to be sure I have the proper unit. The car came with a bunch of relays, so I'm sure some/all have been changed.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200125/34f8e746450a642fe1609489cf91f939.jpg

A standard relay has pin 87a connected to pin 30 just testing with an ohmmeter. The lambda relay will not be connected with those pins.

The OEM lambda relay is a BOSCH 0332015012 12V 2x 15A

[Rich_NYS]

A standard relay has pin 87a connected to pin 30 just testing with an ohmmeter. The lambda relay will not be connected with those pins.

The OEM lambda relay is a BOSCH 0332015012 12V 2x 15AGreat info....thanks Dave!

I found two in my spare parts, the part number matches the one you posted. I'll compare and/or swap with the one currently installed.

While looking through parts, I also came across the instructions for a solid state McKeen RPM relay I bought for my first DeLorean (10372.) :-)


BTW, I also found a new Bosch relay: 0332209150. It has a black plastic housing with tab...what is that one for?

[Bitsyncmaster]

Great info....thanks Dave!

I found two in my spare parts, the part number matches the one you posted. I'll compare and/or swap with the one currently installed.

While looking through parts, I also came across the instructions for a solid state McKeen RPM relay I bought for my first DeLorean (10372.) :-)


BTW, I also found a new Bosch relay: 0332209150. It has a black plastic housing with tab...what is that one for?

Make sure all 5 pins on the lambda relay socket are seated.

I don't know what that other Bosch relay would be for but most likely is just a standard relay.

[Rich_NYS]

The relay is proper and appears to be making good contact. I hear the relay click when I jumper the RPM socket and there's 12 v on one side of the FV plug (ground on the other.) Swapping relays and the FV...no change.

I'm taking a break to replace the accumulator & pull the wheels while I digest what I've learned so far.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The relay is proper and appears to be making good contact. I hear the relay click when I jumper the RPM socket and there's 12 v on one side of the FV plug (ground on the other.) Swapping relays and the FV...no change.

I'm taking a break to replace the accumulator & pull the wheels while I digest what I've learned so far.

It's rare the lambda ECU goes bad but it's looking like that may be your problem. Another common problem is the two grounds for the lambda come through the bulkhead and have to get connected to the engine block.

[Rich_NYS]

It's rare the lambda ECU goes bad but it's looking like that may be your problem. Another common problem is the two grounds for the lambda come through the bulkhead and have to get connected to the engine block.Thanks Dave,
I'll swap the lambda ECU & test again before moving on.

[Rich_NYS]

I replaced the Lambda ECU; the Frequency Valve buzzes now with the RPM relay jumped, key in the off position.

I swapped back to confirm the ECU is the issue. I also noticed it wasn't necessary to ground the ECU to make the FV buzz.

So far, that's a bad Idle ECU and a bad Lambda ECU on a very clean, well-maintained, 26K mile car.....makes me think there was some sort of an electrical mishap like jumpstarted backwards or something like that.

Tese findings appear to jive with things the PO remembered when the car was running, and could explain why the fuel system didn't appear to be totally trashed.


I've been studying the TM and schematics; it appears I don't have much more to address in the Lambda system, I'll be prepared to replace the O2 sensor if necessary. I'll soon assess with a dwell reading.


Hoping to change the accumulator today, but will be working with 1.5 arms.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I replaced the Lambda ECU; the Frequency Valve buzzes now with the RPM relay jumped, key in the off position.

I swapped back to confirm the ECU is the issue. I also noticed it wasn't necessary to ground the ECU to make the FV buzz.

So far, that's a bad Idle ECU and a bad Lambda ECU on a very clean, well-maintained, 26K mile car.....makes me think there was some sort of an electrical mishap like jumpstarted backwards or something like that.

I was just thinking maybe the PO had a bad alternator that put out to much voltage. Is there a battery disconnect switch? It's very bad if the battery disconnects with the engine running.

[Rich_NYS]

I was just thinking maybe the PO had a bad alternator that put out to much voltage. Is there a battery disconnect switch? It's very bad if the battery disconnects with the engine running.

He mentioned there used to be be a battery disconnect switch when he was driving it, but didn't say why he removed it.

[Jonathan]

Great info....thanks Dave!

I found two in my spare parts, the part number matches the one you posted. I'll compare and/or swap with the one currently installed.

While looking through parts, I also came across the instructions for a solid state McKeen RPM relay I bought for my first DeLorean (10372.) :-)


BTW, I also found a new Bosch relay: 0332209150. It has a black plastic housing with tab...what is that one for?

I'm not sure if this would be the same as the one you've got there, but some of DeLoGO's replacement relays are black plastic with the tab backing like you've described...

https://www.deloreango.com/ca/lambda-probe-relay.html

[Rich_NYS]

I'm not sure if this would be the same as the one you've got there, but some of DeLoGO's replacement relays are black plastic with the tab backing like you've described...

https://www.deloreango.com/ca/lambda-probe-relay.htmlThat looks very similar, yes....thanks!



Today was productive:

-Replaced the accumulator (need to revisit...wrong size hoses.)
-Removed the W-pipe to inspect the springs...looks good.
-Removed all 4 wheels, preparing for brake rebuild.
-Swapped the Lambda ECU.
-Learned a lot about Lambda behavior/confirmed some things I've been studying in the TM (thanks Dave!)



There is a definite improvement, but I still need to diagnose a few things. The cold start, warm-up, and warm idle behaviors have all changed.

Cold start: starts and idles smooth, but high RPM's (2000-2200) for a few minutes.

Warm-up: idle hunts like mad.

Warm idle: idles fairly steady, but hunts following any change (i.e. revving, adjusting idle screw...etc.)



I think the CO is out of adjustment; likely adjusted when the PO had running issues. Once I'm sure the Lambda system is on track, I'll try adjusting the CO.

[Ron]

The 0332209150 relay will work for most of the others.
Look on the side of it for a schematic. They will match.
I've seen several used for the ignition resistor by-pass...

[Rich_NYS]

Today I pulled the wheels for the first time and began spraying things. I really like rebuilding/restoring the brake system, it's fairly easy & inexpensive work with a major visual impact. I get a great motivational boost from the before & after.

A few things I noticed:

-The passenger side caliper has a different finish than the driver side.
-The angle drive has a cover on it, I recently read about them but didn't realize this car has one. FWIW, I believe the angle drive to be stock and functional.
-There are some areas that are rustier than I expected. Everything is solid, and I'll easily be able to address it. Some areas seem much rustier than others, luckily it appears to be from water only (not road salt.)


6253462535625366253762538

[Rich_NYS]

The 0332209150 relay will work for most of the others.
Look on the side of it for a schematic. They will match.
I've seen several used for the ignition resistor by-pass...

Thanks Ron, it's new in the box....I'll keep it on hand.

I'm wondering about some other relays I have....maybe you can help:

4728 and 4519 both came with a bunch of relays and breakers. I'm guessing they were the OEM units that were swapped out.

I'm wondering if it was common practice to [arbitrarily] swap out all the OEM relays, and if so....why?

I'd like to determine if the pile of relays I have are worth keeping, if I should test them, and how to test them.

Thanks!

[Ron]

Thanks Ron, it's new in the box....I'll keep it on hand.

I'm wondering about some other relays I have....maybe you can help:

4728 and 4519 both came with a bunch of relays and breakers. I'm guessing they were the OEM units that were swapped out.

I'm wondering if it was common practice to [arbitrarily] swap out all the OEM relays, and if so....why?

I'd like to determine if the pile of relays I have are worth keeping, if I should test them, and how to test them.

Thanks!

If the schematics are the same they will work as long as the Amp rate is high enough. The numbers can tell you that, along with mounting, etc. Dipped Beam, Main Beam, Fan 3rd Speed, Fan 4th Speed, Cooling Fan, Start Inhibit, AC Illumination are the same.

Bosch makes good relays, but it is common to replace them because they are decades old now.


One way to test them is with a couple of bulbs and a battery:
033220915062539
The schematic on the side of a relay shows its normal position.
Normally the contacts connect 30 to 87A.
Light 1 (L1) would burn.
If you close the switch, the coil (85 & 86) will energize and move the contacts to make 30 connect to 87.
L1 will go off and L2 will come on.

[Jonathan]

Thanks Ron, it's new in the box....I'll keep it on hand.

I'm wondering about some other relays I have....maybe you can help:

4728 and 4519 both came with a bunch of relays and breakers. I'm guessing they were the OEM units that were swapped out.

I'm wondering if it was common practice to [arbitrarily] swap out all the OEM relays, and if so....why?

I'd like to determine if the pile of relays I have are worth keeping, if I should test them, and how to test them.

Thanks!

Hey Rich,

Wanted to mention one other thing in case it wasn't already known... you know that decal in the fuse and relay area that says not to interchange modules? It means that most of those generic relays are all the same with the exception of the lambda relay in position 31 on the diagram. It is part number 101071 yet all the others are the same (including the ignition resistor bypass relay in the engine bay). The 7 in the fuse and relay area plus the 1 in the engine bay are part number 106269 (for the 7) and part number 108640 (for the single one near the ballast resistor). They are all the same part though. Except the lambda relay (101071). Make sure you swap that one like for like.

And of course the other relays or timers in that fuse and relay area are different too (fan fail, lights dimmer, etc.). I mean those other relays that look all the same.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Here is a nice data sheet on relays. It has a lot more info than most which I why I keep it.

[Rich_NYS]

Here is a nice data sheet on relays. It has a lot more info than most which I why I keep it.

Good info, thanks!



Hey Rich,

Wanted to mention one other thing in case it wasn't already known... you know that decal in the fuse and relay area that says not to interchange modules? It means that most of those generic relays are all the same with the exception of the lambda relay in position 31 on the diagram. It is part number 101071 yet all the others are the same (including the ignition resistor bypass relay in the engine bay). The 7 in the fuse and relay area plus the 1 in the engine bay are part number 106269 (for the 7) and part number 108640 (for the single one near the ballast resistor). They are all the same part though. Except the lambda relay (101071). Make sure you swap that one like for like.

And of course the other relays or timers in that fuse and relay area are different too (fan fail, lights dimmer, etc.). I mean those other relays that look all the same.

Funny you mention this, I was thinking the exact thing when I was looking through my relays and looking at the decal...lol.

[Ron]

62548

[Jonathan]

I just swapped out all those relays on my own car, Rich. 7 relays all the same plus the unique one for the lambda location. Plus the ignition resistor bypass relay in the engine bay that’s the same as the other 7.

6254962550

[Rich_NYS]

Thank you to everyone for their help with relays & K-Jet stuff, I'm becoming much more familiar.

I've been on a small break, periodically trying to remove the O2 sensor. I'm still recovering from shoulder surgery so I don't have full use of my right arm yet. Yesterday I removed the drivers' side axle for better access. I ran the car a bit to warm up the pipe, used a heat gun and an extension on the wrench, and it broke free.

Replacing the O2 sensor didn't seem to change the behavior of the running, but at least I feel like the Lambda system is now "intact."

I also replaced the ISM with a working one Jimmy sent, it seemed to make an improvement.


Current running behavior seems to be specific enough that I hope to be able to further diagnose.

Cold start: Starts easily and idles smooth around 900 for approximately a minute.

Warming-up: Hunts like mad, wildly swinging between ~500-1200. If I increase the idle a bit with the curb idle screw(s,) I'm able to smooth out the idle at ~900.

Warm running: After around 5(?) minutes, something changes and the idle starts climbing. The amount of increase seems to be synonymous with the amount of increase I made with the curb idle adjustment during warm-up. I then return the idle adjustment screws to their previous position and the car idles fairly smoothly at ~750.

[Rich_NYS]

I just completed another cold-start test. It was 8 degrees during the time of test.

I backed out the idle adjustment screws, adjusted the bottom to +1/2 after it made contact, adjusted the top one to 3/4 after the microswitch "clicked."

Cold start: Started easily and idled fairly smooth around 900-1000 for 1-2 minutes.

Warming-up: Ran a bit rough and hunted continuously. I didn't check the RPM's but I'd guess between ~500-1200.

Warm running: After around 8-10 minutes, something abruptly changed and the idle jumped to very high RPMs (~2000?) I was able to rev the engine & drop the idle, and I also think the top screw might've backed out a bit & lost contact with the microswitch. At this time I tested the idle with/without the top screw engaging the microswitch: the RPMs increased when the switch as not engaged.

With the car idling at ~750, I shut it off and will try another cold start. I'm beginning to think a lot of this is related to the idle screw adjustment.

[David T]

Check for looseness (play) in the ends of the quadrant link. When you get a lot of play it doesn't keep the throttle arm against the stop and the idle will increase as the throttle plates open. There is a procedure to properly set the 2 set screws on the idle arm. One sets the throttle plates so they are closed all the way and the other clicks the micro switch. Some hunting is normal till the motor warms up enough for the Lambda system to start up. Your CPR may also be out of calibration. Hook up a fuel pressure gauge and watch the pressure during warm-up. Make sure the throttle spool is not sticking. You may have to take it apart, clean it up, regrease it and reassemble. The 30 year old grease gets like glue and prevents the spool from moving easily. The throttle cable may need lubrication. Lubricate as per the recall with Anti-Freeze. Finally check the decal springs on the throttle plates. if the springs are deformed or damaged the tiny poppet valves can open and allow air to bypass the throttle plates. If they are damaged you can replace them with springs from a ball point pen, just cut them to length.

[Rich_NYS]

Thanks David, it does seem like something is sticking. I think a clean/lube/adjust will be my next step.

I checked the springs, they look good.

I need to get a kit to measure fuel pressure.

[Rich_NYS]

I removed & disassembled the front calipers.

Rotors, pads, calipers, and pistons are in pretty good shape.

There's a few odd things:

-The passenger side caliper was painted grey, but was originally gold-colored like the driver's side.
-Both calipers have an edge broken-off in the same area....weird.

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[David T]

Eastwood sells paint made specifically for calipers to take the heat and adhere to the cast iron. That square "O" ring can be reused again between the half's if you don't have a new one, just dip it in brake fluid before using it again. Refer to the notes and chart on D:02:01 to test the CPR. There is a spring in the throttle plate assembly and 2 in the throttle spool. If you take the quadrant link apart, it is right handed AND left handed and each socket end has a clip like the door struts that MUST be removed before you try to pop it off.

[Rich_NYS]

Thanks David,

Thinking of clips, what is the method for the square wire things on the connectors for the WUR, CSV, frequency valve....etc?

I temporarily removed them 'cause they were aggravating me. I sense there's some kinda rico suave move, but I haven't figured it out.

[Jonathan]

Thanks David,

Thinking of clips, what is the method for the square wire things on the connectors for the WUR, CSV, frequency valve....etc?

I temporarily removed them 'cause they were aggravating me. I sense there's some kinda rico suave move, but I haven't figured it out.

Those wires are crap, basically. The smooth move would be to wing them into the trash can, but only if you have a better replacement.

They are nothing more than a way to have sort of like a child proof lid to your medicine bottles, but on those electrical connectors so they don't rattle off mistakenly. The two arms slide down the sides of the connector and 'bump' over the opposite end that it's grabbing onto. You can just pull the connector loose from the top, but I think maybe once upon a time you were supposed to squeeze in on the connector and that metal bar would flex a little and let go. Kind of like the bottle of Aspirin at home... or whatever good stuff you're taking for that shoulder!!

Those wire things get mangled over time from what I've seen and sit in there loose at best. I happened to be in my old mechanic's shop a couple seasons ago just reminiscing about the times I used to take my car to him, lol, and we got talking about those wire connectors. I then went routing through his odds and ends boxes of old wiring harnesses and came away with three of these. Whoo hoo! You can see how they slip over the sides the same way, but you now have that nice flap on each side to squeeze with.

I only found the one size, which did a few connections on the car, but not all of them. I'd love to actually find a place to buy these and not have to scavenge junk yards, but I haven't found that yet. Maybe someone else on here will know where they can be bought new?

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[Jonathan]

And for that short linkage Dave was talking about that can get some unwanted slack in it, there's a couple good close-up photos of it in this post:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?10336-Assorted-Helpful-Technical-Photos&p=152181&viewfull=1#post152181

Last two pictures there. You can see part of the tiny clip stuck in there as well as the threaded end. Dave is right about it being just like the clips on the door struts. It's a shoulder joint (ahhhh, I didn't even make a shoulder pun on purpose that time!!) and the cup end of the linkage actually has two little bars inside it, sort of like the wiring connectors we were just talking about!

Each end of that linkage has a small nut that you use to tighten it down once you're finished adjusting things. The reason both ends can be adjusted, and rotate opposite ways, is so that you don't have to make a full 360 degree thread adjustment all at once. You can take it off and rotate each end enough that you get the right length but then the cups are facing the side they need to be to let you clip it back into place.

It is not hard to just remove it entirely by both ends and I would recommend doing that just so you can have it in your hands and fiddle around with it and fully understand how it works.

[Rich_NYS]

Great info, thanks Jonathan! I like those wire clips you have....definitely would be a good score to find some.

[Rich_NYS]

Check for looseness (play) in the ends of the quadrant link. When you get a lot of play it doesn't keep the throttle arm against the stop and the idle will increase as the throttle plates open. ~snip~ Make sure the throttle spool is not sticking. You may have to take it apart, clean it up, regrease it and reassemble. The 30 year old grease gets like glue and prevents the spool from moving easily. ~snip~



~snip~ Each end of that linkage has a small nut that you use to tighten it down once you're finished adjusting things. The reason both ends can be adjusted, and rotate opposite ways, is so that you don't have to make a full 360 degree thread adjustment all at once. ~snip~.


Today I revisited my idle hunting/idle increasing issue. I familiarized with the quadrant link adjustment and adjusted it by loosening both nuts & turning the rod. Although I did find a bit of "play" in the linkage (some of it where the stud connects to the throttle arm,) I decided to try to isolate the idle increase with the quadrant link detached to remove the throttle spool from the equation.

I'm seeing the throttle arm itself sticking a bit; I think it's the linkage or spring, not the throttle plates (I checked the springs & cleaned inside there.) I'm working on cleaning & lubing the throttle arm spring, but ran out of time today so I wasn't able to finish.

For whatever reason, the idle hunt has improved greatly...the car ran really nice today with minimal hunting.

[powerline84]

Bad ass

[Rich_NYS]

I haven't done anything with 4519 since removing the front brakes. I have new parts, including Dave's idle ECU but haven't installed anything.

I got it running, and likely only need to rebuild the brakes & clutch hydraulics, but still haven't moved forward. Having two cars means twice as much work and I think I have a mental block from being somewhat overwhelmed. It's also a pain in the ass because I have limited space. I think when I'm back to having only one car, I'll be back in my power-groove.

Now that driving season is here, I'm driving 4728 frequently so I don't want to sell it yet. I think I'll pick one small task per week for 4519 and get the brakes & clutch finished over the next few months. Once I can drive it in & out of the garage I'll probably have a fresh perspective, and list 4728 at the end of the summer.

[Rich_NYS]

With 4728 sold and several other things crossed off my to-do list, I now have a clear runway to move forward with 4519.

The weekend before Thanksgiving I'm going to lift the body off the frame.

Although it only needs clutch & brake hydraulics rebuilt and headliners replaced, I decided to play the long game and go "whole hog" with restoration & upgrades.

Goal: have it on the road by Rocktober 1st, 2021.

[Rich_NYS]

Sunday I did most of the prep for a separation, yesterday I split the car into two pieces. I also took the seats out so I could inspect the rails and prepare for removing the carpets. Body/frame separation is the way to go; if I separated 4728, I think I would've saved months of time with all the work I did.

-Most of the body bolts were just finger-tight, and the rearmost drivers-side bolt was barely installed...the end of the bolt was flush with the captive nut.
-The frame is solid, but has some peeled epoxy and surface rust, mostly in one spot, below the rack.
-The calipers & suspension parts look pretty cruddy, but since I'm replacing the suspension & doing a complete brake resto, it machts nicht.
-The clutch slave looks pretty rough, I'm guessing that's the reason the clutch pedal goes to the floor.

This Sunday I'm going to put the body on a flat trailer so I can move it into my backyard & out of the way. I'll move the chassis into my garage, then back outside when I do sanding/grinding & paint work.

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This is the worst area; it's solid, just looks like crap:

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[NJP548]

Looks like a nice project! Depending on how quickly you go through this, I would like to stop by during my next visit to Lake George (July 2021!).

-Nick

[Rich_NYS]

Looks like a nice project! Depending on how quickly you go through this, I would like to stop by during my next visit to Lake George (July 2021!).

-NickI'll plan on seeing you in July for sure!

My goal is to have it on the road by Rocktober 1st; definitely doable before then, but giving myself a long runway. I need to get some stuff done on my house.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

[NJP548]

Sounds good! I'll reach out when we get closer.

That timeline is definitely doable!

-Nick

[Rich_NYS]

This past weekend a few guys from our local club helped me put the body on a flat trailer. Bonus: one of our guys arrived in a new C8...very cool!

We lowered the body onto a flat trailer so I can move it out of the way until Spring. I'll soon begin stripping the frame.

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[Michael]

This past weekend a few guys from our local club helped me put the body on a flat trailer. Bonus: one of our guys arrived in a new C8...very cool!

We lowered the body onto a flat trailer so I can move it out of the way until Spring. I'll soon begin stripping the frame.

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Thugeriffic!!!

[orangecrrrush]

Rich,

good luck with your build.

Adam

[Rich_NYS]

Rich,

good luck with your build.

Adam


Thanks Adam!

I previously mentioned your 'Vettes to the owner of the C8. I should've sent you a pic of his, didn't think of it.

[Rich_NYS]

This weekend I removed the headliners and dropped the tank. Good news on both; the headliners are in good shape & cleaned super easily (like, <1 min. each piece,) and the frame in the tank area has no epoxy issues. The closing plate has a small amount of bubbling.

The closing plate bolts have anti-seize on all of them, so I'm thinking whoever worked on the MS leak also dropped the plate to rinse away all the brake fluid. Would there be any other reason to remove the closing plate?

I also moved the body around the other side of my house, into a safe spot for the winter.

Hopefully pull the engine soon. I also need to decide on replacing the AC hoses (or not.)

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[JETS 81 DMC]

Rich,

WOW, you are making a lot of progress. :wrenchin: Looking good. :cheers:

Any cave paintings?

[Rich_NYS]

Rich,

WOW, you are making a lot of progress. :wrenchin: Looking good. :cheers:

Any cave paintings?


Thanks Mr. Jim! No good cave paintings, unfortunately.

[J-Fx]

I've just went through your thread and you did a great job so far! Looking forward to seeing the rest...

How is your shoulder?

[Rich_NYS]

I've just went through your thread and you did a great job so far! Looking forward to seeing the rest...

How is your shoulder?Thanks! Shoulder is doing good, I'm healed and building myself better, stronger, and faster.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

[Rich_NYS]

Things are progressing well, and I have good momentum with many different jobs in play.


-Seats are disassembled, waiting on frame rail paint
-Seat rails & engine compartment brace are prepped & ready for paint
-Axles are painted and ready for CV rebuilds
-Cooling pipes had a quick clean, ready for a more thorough cleaning
-All brake components are completely disassembled and almost ready for plating
-Frame work began, prepping for spot repairs [flaked epoxy] is probably 50% complete
-Started coating headliner boards
-Parts for plating ~50% ready
-Transmission is separated from the engine
-Wheels & new tires are ready for delivery for powdercoating

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[Mark D]

Progress dude! Keep plugging away.... It's crazy how much you've done so far. What did you end up deciding to go with for frame paint?

[powerline84]

Nice !!!

[Rich_NYS]

Progress dude! Keep plugging away.... It's crazy how much you've done so far. What did you end up deciding to go with for frame paint?Preppin' the bare metal spots with POR metal prep, coating with Mastercoat rust sealer, POR primer, topcoating with Rustoleum.

[powerline84]

I bet that will work good. It's funny we all go different routes on coatings. I really like the eastwood rust encapsilator platinum. Top coated in the rust-oleum. I almost didn't top coat it cause I liked the color of the platinum but I am glad I did the rust-oleum smoke gray gives it a nice finished look.

[Rich_NYS]

I bet that will work good. It's funny we all go different routes on coatings. I really like the eastwood rust encapsilator platinum. Top coated in the rust-oleum. I almost didn't top coat it cause I liked the color of the platinum but I am glad I did the rust-oleum smoke gray gives it a nice finished look.I just learned about the Mastercoat products last week; I'm impressed by what I see, looks like good stuff.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

[Rich_NYS]

I've been prepping the frame for spot repairs. The frame is in good condition, but several very small areas where the epoxy is cracked and/or flaking. Since I have the frame stripped, I want to be as thorough as possible so I'm examining the entire frame closely.

On my last car, I used Prep & Etch, POR-15 rust sealer, POR-15 primer (has a nice build to match the original epoxy thickness,) then Rustoleum topcoat.

I recently learned about Mastercoat, and saw a comparison test against POR-15 and other coatings. I also read some user experiences that were positive. It appears to outperform POR-15, plus it appears to be able to be used over many different coatings/surfaces, and can be topcoated with anything.

I'll prep with POR's metal prep, coat the bare spots with Mastercoat Rust Sealer, prime with Rustoleum Professional Primer, topcoat with Rustoleum Smoke Grey.

I'm going to do the underside of the closing plate first.


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[Rich_NYS]

I finished painting the frame, just touching up a few spots as I go.

I prepped the bare spots with a few coats of Mastercoat rust sealer, 1 coat of Rustoleum professional series primer, filler primer where needed, then 3 coats of Rustoleum Smoke Gray (Professional series.) I have a painter friend who set me up with a painting rig that sprayed the paint without thinning it.

I just started reassembly; haven't done much, but I'm pointed in a forward direction and building momentum:

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I have a lot of miscellaneous parts ready as well, one very satisfying example is the brakes:

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Here's a pic of the tow loop I made to replace the broken one:

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[Helirich]

Wonder how they broke the tow hook? Wouldn't think they were mud bogging in the car. Lol

I see your in NYS. Anywhere ne'er the Adirondack mountains? I'm heading that way in a couple days. (In the D)

[WHO1DMC]

I have one broken on my car. Looks like it's been that way for years. It's on one side of the loop before the weld. I think some must have been flawed.



Dave B.

[Rich_NYS]

Wonder how they broke the tow hook? Wouldn't think they were mud bogging in the car. Lol

I see your in NYS. Anywhere ne'er the Adirondack mountains? I'm heading that way in a couple days. (In the D)

Yes, I live & work in the Southern Adirondacks...where ya goin'?

[Helirich]

Yes, I live & work in the Southern Adirondacks...where ya goin'?

Going to Morehouse. It's not too big. It's near a place called Higgins Bay.

[Helirich]

Going to Morehouse. It's not too big. It's near a place called Higgins Bay.

Correction, it's not near Higgins Bay. I just talked to him and he said it's 70 miles from HB.

Another question, you got room to land a small helicopter at your place?

[Rich_NYS]

Correction, it's not near Higgins Bay. I just talked to him and he said it's 70 miles from HB.

Another question, you got room to land a small helicopter at your place?

I'm very familiar with Morehouse, I've been there several times..my wife's uncle has a hunting camp there. It's a very small town.

Lots of places to land a helicopter, I can help get a location. I'll PM you.

[Michael]

I finished painting the frame, just touching up a few spots as I go.

I prepped the bare spots with a few coats of Mastercoat rust sealer, 1 coat of Rustoleum professional series primer, filler primer where needed, then 3 coats of Rustoleum Smoke Gray (Professional series.) I have a painter friend who set me up with a painting rig that sprayed the paint without thinning it.

I just started reassembly; haven't done much, but I'm pointed in a forward direction and building momentum:

66443664446644566446

I have a lot of miscellaneous parts ready as well, one very satisfying example is the brakes:

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Here's a pic of the tow loop I made to replace the broken one:

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[Rich_NYS]

Things are slowly coming together, I'll soon have the suspension complete and put the wheels on the chassis. I'll probably take a few pics later today with the suspension complete.

I finally finished the LCA's, and pretty happy with the result. I used a reinforcement ring from Dgo, I really like it. My welds have a few rough spots, but overall looks good. I'm really jazzed about how much sturdier they are now. I'm sure there are other types of failures the reinforcement plates don't address, but I really feel they're sufficient now.

I've been using a gun metal color on a few parts, it looks good against the yellow chromium and black.

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[Michael]

A D that classy needs charcoal colored wheels!

[Rich_NYS]

A D that classy needs charcoal colored wheels!

I have nice clean wheels, not early dirty-looking wheels -lol

[powerline84]

Looking damn good bro. I feel like we are having a biker build off for Deloreans lol

[Rich_NYS]

Looking damn good bro. I feel like we are having a biker build off for Deloreans lol

Thanks man! I can't compete with what you have goin' on!

[powerline84]

Whatever lol

[Helirich]

Very nice looking stuff.

When you box the control arms, do you put drain holes in the lowest part? Is it completely sealed? Otherwise, I think it will rust from the inside. If it is sealed, you should "oil" the inside. Just drill a 1/8" hole and pour a small amount of linseed oil in. Then weld up the hole. After it cools, rotate the part several times to allow the oil to coat the inside. This is standard procedure for aircfart frames. It makes a big differnce.

[WHO1DMC]

Very nice looking stuff.

When you box the control arms, do you put drain holes in the lowest part? Is it completely sealed? Otherwise, I think it will rust from the inside. If it is sealed, you should "oil" the inside. Just drill a 1/8" hole and pour a small amount of linseed oil in. Then weld up the hole. After it cools, rotate the part several times to allow the oil to coat the inside. This is standard procedure for aircfart frames. It makes a big differnce.

I also did mine in a very similar manner early this year. It's just plate steal welded on the bottom leaving it open from end to end. I don't think much water would be able to collect do to just simply driving the car. If one was really concerned about the little water that might be there you could just simply jack up the car and it would come out. If you're really particular you could wash them out with a hose.



Dave B.

[Rich_NYS]

Very nice looking stuff.

When you box the control arms, do you put drain holes in the lowest part? Is it completely sealed? Otherwise, I think it will rust from the inside. If it is sealed, you should "oil" the inside. Just drill a 1/8" hole and pour a small amount of linseed oil in. Then weld up the hole. After it cools, rotate the part several times to allow the oil to coat the inside. This is standard procedure for aircfart frames. It makes a big differnce.


Thanks!

I didn't put drain holes in the lowest part, but I considered it. I won't know for sure until it's sitting on the wheels, but I think the opening near the ball joint will become the lowest point. I also think there's a low probability of water pooling in there, but I painted the inside and will be spraying it with corrosion prevention anyway. They aren't sealed; both ends are open, and there's a large opening below the shock mount.


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[Helirich]

Thanks!

I didn't put drain holes in the lowest part, but I considered it. I won't know for sure until it's sitting on the wheels, but I think the opening near the ball joint will become the lowest point. I also think there's a low probability of water pooling in there, but I painted the inside and will be spraying it with corrosion prevention anyway. They aren't sealed; both ends are open, and there's a large opening below the shock mount.


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The other thing you could do since you have an opening is shove a tube down and spray under coat as you pull the tube out. Some under coat spray cans come with tubes, but you could probably take one from a wd40 can if not.

[Rich_NYS]

The other thing you could do since you have an opening is shove a tube down and spray under coat as you pull the tube out. Some under coat spray cans come with tubes, but you could probably take one from a wd40 can if not.

The corrosion protection spray I have comes with a tube that sprays in all directions.