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DCUK Martin
09-24-2011, 07:24 AM
Since I am going to attempt my conversion again soon, I would like to see pictures from Jim Reeve and Martin Gutkowski (sp?) of how they do the throttle spool set up with the Z7U manifold, please.


http://rottbott-studios.com/DeLoreanProject/Engine2/OnStandInlet1.JPG

The Z7U throttle spool seen here and the one Jim has use the same mounting points but you have to get creative with the top of the water pump because it's designed for a different generation of pump which is in a slightly different position. Other than that, it's pretty simple. They don't always have that spring, BTW.

The throttle cable enters from the rear right, and on the GTA the cable really does swoop around to the back of the engine bay in order to attach. I have a 60mm piece of 8mm stainless rod drilled from each end to a depth of about 28mm with a 6mm bit, and then a centre bore of 2mm. I can then conjoin a new outer sheath with the original to lengthen it and replace the entire inner cable. I then sheath the joinwith electrical heat-shrink to keep moisture out.

I've got another Z7U manifold spare now if anyone wants one.

opethmike
09-24-2011, 05:55 PM
I have the same manifold as Jim Reeve, and I am using the stock idle speed motor. It works, but it is a very unattractive setup. If my stock ISM dies at some point, then I will certainly move forward with a more modern solution.

opethmike
09-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Another question as I plan my second EFI attempt - where are you guys getting ground for the MS ECU from?

Spittybug
09-29-2011, 09:23 AM
Another question as I plan my second EFI attempt - where are you guys getting ground for the MS ECU from?

I bought mine from www.DIYautotune.com They were fine to deal with, have a guy that is very knowledgeable who keeps his eye on the Megasquirt forums to help people, and have various technical articles/videos on their site that are helpful.

opethmike
09-29-2011, 09:24 AM
I bought mine from www.DIYautotune.com They were fine to deal with, have a guy that is very knowledgeable who keeps his eye on the Megasquirt forums to help people, and have various technical articles/videos on their site that are helpful.

Thanks Owen, but I meant where are you running the ground wires to :)

Spittybug
09-29-2011, 09:59 AM
Thanks Owen, but I meant where are you running the ground wires to :)

Sorry, coffee must not have kicked in yet. I ran my grounds (all bundled with a single heavy ring connector soldered on the end) to the driver's side head. There is a screw hole in the back right next to the dizzy. May have been where the vacuum advance solenoid mounted, I'm not positive. In any case, it's solid, secure and out of sight yet easy to reach. Since I run all my wires through the bulkhead hole for the Lambda probe to the compartment behind the driver's seat, this is also a very short run. I don't have a picture of back there, but can snap one if you need it.

opethmike
09-29-2011, 10:25 AM
Thanks Owen, I know exactly which spot you mean.

opethmike
10-04-2011, 09:52 PM
For those of you successfully running Megasquirt, what does your MAP sensor read at idle?

Spittybug
10-05-2011, 07:24 AM
IIRC, in the 30 range. Dips lower on decel, but only briefly.

opethmike
10-07-2011, 11:09 PM
My second attempt at converting 01049 to EFI commences on Sunday. Wish me luck!

My goal for Sunday is to strip K-Jet (I've made that an art at this point), install the intake manifold + injectors, install the idle speed motor, install the vacuum advance solenoid, plug the K-Jet injector ports, and then hook up my smoke machine to test for vacuum leaks.

The car should be ready for attempting to start by next weekend, as I simply have to re-install everything, albeit with some small differences in where I am getting ground + power.

opethmike
10-09-2011, 09:01 PM
I drove 01049 over to my friend Jeremy's house for seasonal storage today. I also began the second EFI conversion attempt.

Today's accomplishments on the project:
Removed K-Jet from the car (new personal record - 21 minutes)
Installed intake manifold and fuel rails
Ran all vacuum lines
Relocated the grounds that were on the old manifold to their respective valve covers
Installed the vacuum advance solenoid
Installed the fuel pressure regulator
Played around with locations for the idle speed motor (Jim Reeve - where do you have yours?)
Hooked up a smoke machine and verified that there are NO vacuum leaks whatsoever

Left to do:

Finalize location of idle speed motor and mount it
Install wiring harness
Install fuel feed line
Install fuel return line
Install relay board
Install MegaSquirt ECU
Run power + ground for ECU
Install throttle spool + cable
Install air filter
Load an MSQ to ECU

Wish me luck!
Try to start car

Ron
10-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Wish me luck!
Good luck dude!

(Hey where's the pics?)

opethmike
10-09-2011, 10:25 PM
Thanks Ron!

I am at my girlfriend's place, and I do not have the cable for my camera with me. I'll post pictures tomorrow.

opethmike
10-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Here are some pictures. I have mostly everything re-installed in the engine bay at this point. I still need to mount the idle speed motor, install the feed and return lines, and install the wiring harness.

opethmike
10-14-2011, 09:01 PM
Today I finished mounting the idle speed motor, installed the fuel feed and return lines, tested for fuel leaks (none), and installed the engine bay side of the wiring harness.

Left to do:

Install the relay board and ECU
Run power and ground wires for ECU
Connect the wiring harness to the relay board
Install and calibrate the wide-band oxygen sensor
Install battery terminal extenders to run power and ground straight from battery
Tap into the ground wire for the idle speed motor and vacuum advance solenoid
Run vacuum line for MAP sensor
Load a base line MSQ on to the ECU
Calibrate the throttle position sensor

Then I can try starting the car. I expect to be at that point sometime Sunday.

Ron
10-14-2011, 09:31 PM
Daddy like!!!

opethmike
10-14-2011, 09:47 PM
I'll like it a whole lot if I can get the car to stay running for more than a few seconds this time. Last attempt it would only stay running with a VERY (~10-11) AFR, and only for a few seconds then.

Opening the throttle would make it die even quicker, so it was experiencing the symptoms of a vacuum leak. I never found one though.

This go round I bought a party fog machine and smoked the installation and found NO vacuum leaks, so I know for a fact that that won't be a problem this time around.

AdmiralSenn
10-14-2011, 10:19 PM
When you ran last time, what did you have your MSQ set to? Fuel only or Basic Trigger? I found that on Fuel Only on odd fire cars it BARELY runs and does as you describe. Basic Trigger works a lot better.

opethmike
10-14-2011, 11:08 PM
I tried both.

Spittybug
10-15-2011, 12:15 PM
If memory serves me, it was fuel only vs. basic trigger where I found the MS code to be squirrely. We went round and round with James in England who ended up fixing things. I recall that the best course of action if I changed things was to save, then close, then reopen. Don't always assume settings change on the fly.

For reference, I'm running MS2Extra Serial310 and am fine. There are no guarantees that later releases work better; sometimes a change in another part of the code can have an affect on other functions. As odd fire guys, we are in the minority and it is really up to us to find out if things work or not for us.

I have previously posted or otherwise shared the fueling parameters and tables that I'm running I believe, but if anyone would like them again, just ask. You just have to be in the ballpark to get running. If it's a warm enough day, even if your idle air is wrong big time (for whatever reason) you should still be able to get it running and it will get progressively better once warm. Just watch that you keep the RPM high enough to give you decent oil pressure and make sure you aren't glowing the cat or anything like that.

Good luck!

PS, are you still using a microswitch to disable the vacuum advance at idle? If not, you are letting manifold vacuum through to the advance, thus making it very difficult to start and being too advanced at idle. Vacuum advance should only start to kick in with load and then fades away once you approach atmospheric. By then the RPMs are up and centrifugal takes over.

opethmike
10-15-2011, 08:31 PM
Today's work:

Installed wide band oxygen sensor
Installed relay board
Installed ECU + MAP sensor vacuum line

Tomorrow's work:

Run power and ground to relay board
Connect all wires to relay board
Load a 'good' base tune to ECU
Calibrate TPS
Calibrate ground switch for vacuum solenoid + idle speed motor
Try to get car to run



PS, are you still using a microswitch to disable the vacuum advance at idle? If not, you are letting manifold vacuum through to the advance, thus making it very difficult to start and being too advanced at idle. Vacuum advance should only start to kick in with load and then fades away once you approach atmospheric. By then the RPMs are up and centrifugal takes over.

I do not have the microswitch installed, but I am doing what Jim Reeve does - I am tapping the FIdle output of the relay board into the ground wire for the vacuum advance solenoid + idle speed motor. I have the ECU set so that it will provide ground when the throttle position sensor is below a certain point.

Bitsyncmaster
10-16-2011, 04:20 AM
I do not have the microswitch installed, but I am doing what Jim Reeve does - I am tapping the FIdle output of the relay board into the ground wire for the vacuum advance solenoid + idle speed motor. I have the ECU set so that it will provide ground when the throttle position sensor is below a certain point.

I would just pull the advance hose off and plug it untill you get the engine running. That way you know you don't have advance when starting the car.

opethmike
10-16-2011, 09:50 AM
I would just pull the advance hose off and plug it untill you get the engine running. That way you know you don't have advance when starting the car.

Thanks, that's a great idea.

opethmike
10-17-2011, 12:29 AM
)@(#$)@#*$

Having issues communicating with the ECU, as per attached photo.

AdmiralSenn
10-17-2011, 09:56 AM
What's your setup? Standard serial port, usb to serial converter, operating system? How do you have the serial port set up in Windows and the tuning software?

opethmike
10-17-2011, 11:50 AM
Turned out it was a serial driver issue. Uninstalled and re-installed, and now communicates fine. Very strange, but hey, it works now.

opethmike
10-17-2011, 03:10 PM
Found a set of six high impedance injectors for $200, so I decided to order them. Since high impedance injectors are a single set it and forget it configuration, getting them should make things easier.

Bitsyncmaster
10-17-2011, 04:43 PM
Found a set of six high impedance injectors for $200, so I decided to order them. Since high impedance injectors are a single set it and forget it configuration, getting them should make things easier.

So why would anyone want low impedance (higher power) injectors? Do they work faster so are for high RPM engines?

opethmike
10-17-2011, 04:58 PM
I really don't know, but most older cars have lower impedance injectors. I think its a legacy thing at this point.

Spittybug
10-17-2011, 05:41 PM
The high impedance ones are easier to set up in MS, both code wise and hardware wise (no flyback circuit to wire up). Good move I think.

So did you try to fire it up?

opethmike
10-17-2011, 05:46 PM
Only got to try twice before my serial driver shit the bed. Both times the car would start after a bit of cranking, and then run very rough for 10-20 seconds before shutting itself off.

Spittybug
10-17-2011, 05:51 PM
Getting started at all is great.... rules out wiring issues. You'll get it.

opethmike
10-17-2011, 06:10 PM
Yeah, I'm sure I will. If anything, this project is teaching me a whole lot of patience!

Ron
10-17-2011, 07:31 PM
Did you get vid of your baby's first cry?

opethmike
10-17-2011, 07:31 PM
Nope, nothing exciting enough to get video of yet.

Ron
10-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Hey don't cut yourself short (or be a bad daddy) that's a mild-stone! :woot:

opethmike
10-17-2011, 08:15 PM
Thanks Ron, I appreciate the motivation. I am optimistic that switching to brand new high impedance injectors will make things much easier for me.

AdmiralSenn
10-17-2011, 11:22 PM
Yay for progress!

opethmike
10-18-2011, 12:22 AM
Curiosity question, in case I need it for diagnostics:

How can I test that all of the injectors are firing?

DARCOM
10-18-2011, 01:51 AM
I use a mechanics stethoscope. just place the end on the injector case and listen for the loud tapping. if one is quiet its not working. usually you can feel them by hand but if your engine has other tapping vibrations it can be hard.

Spittybug
10-18-2011, 09:40 AM
Curiosity question, in case I need it for diagnostics:

How can I test that all of the injectors are firing?

If memory serves, under ADVANCED tab there is an injector test menu item. If you have them installed however, all you will do is flood the engine if you power up the fuel pump, so if you merely wish to determine whether or not the injector is "ticking", disconnect the fuel pump.

opethmike
10-18-2011, 09:48 AM
If memory serves, under ADVANCED tab there is an injector test menu item. If you have them installed however, all you will do is flood the engine if you power up the fuel pump, so if you merely wish to determine whether or not the injector is "ticking", disconnect the fuel pump.

Ah, cool. Thanks!

Ron
10-18-2011, 11:15 AM
If fireing is all you want to know, why not unplug them one at a time an listen for the cylinder to start missing?

opethmike
10-18-2011, 11:22 AM
I don't have any particular actual need to test the injectors right now (particularly as I'm about to switch to a brand new set of high impedance), but was more curious for educational purposes. I'm pretty good with K-Jet diagnostics, but know very little about port EFI diagnostics.

dmc6960
10-18-2011, 11:31 AM
Then apply some K-Jet diagnostics...

Pull up both injector rails and set the injectors into glass jars. Have someone power up the MS and you watch the priming to see if they all fire. The clips will hold the injectors onto the rails for this test.

Simple, done.

Ron
10-18-2011, 11:41 AM
I'd have all six confirmed by the time you found a jar LOL....of coarse, if a cylinder was already dead, you wouldn't know why, but, pulling a plug wire is simple too.
Different strokes, I guess 8)

opethmike
10-18-2011, 12:08 PM
Then apply some K-Jet diagnostics...

Pull up both injector rails and set the injectors into glass jars. Have someone power up the MS and you watch the priming to see if they all fire. The clips will hold the injectors onto the rails for this test.

Simple, done.

Hah, good point! Thanks Jim.

AdmiralSenn
10-18-2011, 12:15 PM
I actually made a wooden "test bench" setup with holes that mimic the spacing of my injector ports, and clamped the fuel rail and injectors into the hole so I could verify injector function and spray pattern. It's not hard to do - you just have to remove the injectors to do it, so it's a little more work, just like the glass jar method.

Ron
10-18-2011, 12:45 PM
...curious for educational purposes.I have a set of node lights. You plug them into the injector plug...

6097

opethmike
10-18-2011, 12:48 PM
Ah, another good pointer. Stuff like this is why I love this community!

opethmike
10-22-2011, 04:38 PM
I am out of town, but tracking shows that my new injectors have been delivered. Can't wait to get back to work on the car soon!

opethmike
10-24-2011, 03:46 PM
High impedance fuel injectors have arrived. After taking care of some stuff around my apartment, I'm going to head over to the DeLorean's storage location and install them. Hopefully this will ease the EFI conversion difficulties a bit.

opethmike
10-24-2011, 11:02 PM
Installed the high impedance injectors for the DeLorean EFI conversion tonight. I now have the cranking pulse-widths for the current temperature tuned spot on so the car cranks over and fires immediately. Now to move on to the issue of getting the car to stay running without maxing out idle VE.

Other details:

Smoke machine shows no vacuum leaks
Multimeter shows that all six injectors fire
All six spark plugs fire
Car ran perfectly fine on K-Jet
ECU is a 3.57 MSII board, running MS2Extra, firmware 3.1.0.


MSLs and MSQs from today are attached.

AdmiralSenn
10-25-2011, 12:08 AM
Are you running injectors on two banks? If you are, switch to either 2 or 6 squirts/cycle and alternating injections. This helped Christine run SUPER smooth after I made the switch.

I still haven't decided if 2 or 6 squirts runs better on my car, it reacts differently to both, but I'd definitely hit those settings and see how things go.

If you have your injectors all wired up I'd seriously consider wiring them up on separate banks. Put one group on the left and one on the right of the engine. It does make a difference.

opethmike
10-25-2011, 12:36 AM
Are you running injectors on two banks? If you are, switch to either 2 or 6 squirts/cycle and alternating injections. This helped Christine run SUPER smooth after I made the switch.

I still haven't decided if 2 or 6 squirts runs better on my car, it reacts differently to both, but I'd definitely hit those settings and see how things go.

If you have your injectors all wired up I'd seriously consider wiring them up on separate banks. Put one group on the left and one on the right of the engine. It does make a difference.

Yes, they are running on separate banks. I am currently running one squirt, simultaneous. I'll add your suggestion to the list of things to try.

Spittybug
10-25-2011, 09:53 AM
Are you running injectors on two banks? If you are, switch to either 2 or 6 squirts/cycle and alternating injections. This helped Christine run SUPER smooth after I made the switch.

I still haven't decided if 2 or 6 squirts runs better on my car, it reacts differently to both, but I'd definitely hit those settings and see how things go.

If you have your injectors all wired up I'd seriously consider wiring them up on separate banks. Put one group on the left and one on the right of the engine. It does make a difference.

I wholly agree. I'm running 2 squirts.
My required fuel is 18 (which therefore makes it 9 ms because of dual squirts)
Using Speed Density algorithm
Simultaneous injector staging
Open time 1 ms
Voltage correction .25ms/v
PWM limit 100%
PWM threshold 32.7
PWM period 60
Bank 2, off.

If you are firing and at least starting, it sounds like you perhaps need to revisit your afterstart settings. I have pretty much a straight line that goes from 350 cycles at 9degF to 150 cycles at 190degF. The enrichment % goes from 47% at 9degF to 31% at 190degF.

If you are making it past the few seconds that this lasts, then look at your warm up settings. Mine goes 118% at 0degF to 100% at 190degF. It isn't quite a straight line, I "drop quicker" at the higher temp.

If you are even close on these settings, then you should be ok. If it just dies for no apparent reason, I'd double check that your fuel pump relay isn't somehow failing open or that your idle control valve isn't going crazy somehow.

WOW, just looked at your Warm Up Enrichment...... you go from 180% to 100% over the same temp range that I go from 118% to 100%. You are DUMPING fuel in there at cold temps, but in the "comfortable" temps of say 70degF, you are ~126% compared to my ~114% add that to your already higher fuel requirement and that could be an issue. Your cranking pulse is larger too, maybe giving too much initial gas?

opethmike
10-25-2011, 10:13 AM
Idle air control and fuel pump/relay are fine; car ran perfectly on K-Jet.

I am experiencing the EXACT same behavior as the first time I attempted the conversion - the car will die quickly unless I jack the fuel up WAY WAY high.

What do you guys see for an idle pulsewidth on your cars?

Spittybug
10-25-2011, 10:33 AM
Give me a few.... I'm studying your log files. It looks to me that although your throttle position in zero (you did calibrate, right?), the MAP starts high, then dives, then bounces back up....etc. Each time the RPMs bounce in the opposite direction. Looking at the AFR in the same time frame, it goes Ultra rich (7.7). Your PW is going up to 30, mine never goes over 14.

What size (lb/hr) injectors do you have and what pressure are you running the fuel system at?

I'm not sure what is really going on here, I have to dig more, but it is certainly a case of tooooo much fuel.

Where are you located? Anyone with a known good MS burn nearby? I'm still suspicious of your code because I had very similar problems.

Spittybug
10-25-2011, 11:27 AM
After reflecting a bit.... I think you need to confirm that your MAP sensor is ok. Disconnect it from the manifold and give a good suck on it while recording a log. You should be able to pull the vacuum down to about 40 I think. It should read about 100 give or take your altitude when at rest. If this works ok, then we'll move on.

The only thing that would raise the MAP reading, triggering MS to add fuel, is more air coming in. Your throttle position indicates that your butterflies haven't opened, so you've either got a massive air leak which you say you have ruled out, or your idle air valve is letting in WAY too much. Where are you tapping your MAP line by the way? It is downstream of the the butterflies, preferably right off the manifold, right?

I would blank off your idle air for now. Yes, you may have to play with the gas peddle or butterflies a tad to give it enough air initially, but I think we need to eliminate this variable. I want to see a log that doesn't show MAP going atmospheric unless it is because of a throttle position change.

Make sense?

opethmike
10-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Give me a few.... I'm studying your log files. It looks to me that although your throttle position in zero (you did calibrate, right?), the MAP starts high, then dives, then bounces back up....etc. Each time the RPMs bounce in the opposite direction. Looking at the AFR in the same time frame, it goes Ultra rich (7.7). Your PW is going up to 30, mine never goes over 14.

What size (lb/hr) injectors do you have and what pressure are you running the fuel system at?

I'm not sure what is really going on here, I have to dig more, but it is certainly a case of tooooo much fuel.

Where are you located? Anyone with a known good MS burn nearby? I'm still suspicious of your code because I had very similar problems.

The injectors are 24 lb/hr. The ones that came with the manifold are unknown, but suspected to be 19/lb hr. Those were low impedance.

I'm actually not certain what the fuel pressure is, as the pressure regulator that I have doesn't have a gauge. I'll get one and check it out. I am running firmware 3.1.0; what are you running?

No, no one with a known good MS burn around. I'm not aware of any DeLoreans at all around here.


After reflecting a bit.... I think you need to confirm that your MAP sensor is ok. Disconnect it from the manifold and give a good suck on it while recording a log. You should be able to pull the vacuum down to about 40 I think. It should read about 100 give or take your altitude when at rest. If this works ok, then we'll move on.

The only thing that would raise the MAP reading, triggering MS to add fuel, is more air coming in. Your throttle position indicates that your butterflies haven't opened, so you've either got a massive air leak which you say you have ruled out, or your idle air valve is letting in WAY too much. Where are you tapping your MAP line by the way? It is downstream of the the butterflies, preferably right off the manifold, right?

I would blank off your idle air for now. Yes, you may have to play with the gas peddle or butterflies a tad to give it enough air initially, but I think we need to eliminate this variable. I want to see a log that doesn't show MAP going atmospheric unless it is because of a throttle position change.

Make sense?

I am getting the map sensor reading right off the manifold, downstream of the throttle plates indeed.

I am currently using the stock idle speed motor.

So, to sum up, I need/will look at the following:

MAP sensor
Block off idle air feed
Check fuel pressure (should be ~45 psi, correct?)

Anything else?

Thanks for the continued help Owen, I owe you a few beers should we ever meet.

AdmiralSenn
10-25-2011, 12:47 PM
I would really recommend checking those injector settings too. On Christine, switching from simultaneous to alternating is the difference between it not running at all and running beautifully. You may be fighting poor atomization from using pulses that are just too large for good operation.

Spittybug
10-25-2011, 12:56 PM
I think you need to check that fuel pressure. Yes, 45 is about right, but the Delorean fuel pump can go significantly higher. You could be dumping a lot more than you think, and with the 7.7 AFR I think you are! Adam is correct too, changing the squirts can have a big effect.

Break down for me the various vacuum hoses you have coming off the engine. We may want to blank some off until we know we've got thing running. For example, the charcoal canister and the idle air..... what others do you have?

I'm running the same version. I have 19#/hr injectors and have significantly lower fueling than you, hence my suspicions.

opethmike
10-25-2011, 01:36 PM
I would really recommend checking those injector settings too. On Christine, switching from simultaneous to alternating is the difference between it not running at all and running beautifully. You may be fighting poor atomization from using pulses that are just too large for good operation.

I will certainly do so. As I'm sure you can tell, I am VERY new to this deep of a level of fuel injection understanding. It makes sense to me what you are saying.


I think you need to check that fuel pressure. Yes, 45 is about right, but the Delorean fuel pump can go significantly higher. You could be dumping a lot more than you think, and with the 7.7 AFR I think you are! Adam is correct too, changing the squirts can have a big effect.

Break down for me the various vacuum hoses you have coming off the engine. We may want to blank some off until we know we've got thing running. For example, the charcoal canister and the idle air..... what others do you have?

I'm running the same version. I have 19#/hr injectors and have significantly lower fueling than you, hence my suspicions.

I certainly will be checking the fuel pressure. I'll be picking up a gauge after work today. Not 100% certain that I will be able to make it out to the car today (stored at my friend's house for the winter), but hopefully I will.

Vacuum hoses off of manifold:
Idle air
Charcoal canister
Brake booster
Feed to the three prong vacuum thing in the y-pipe (forget the name off the top of my head, sorry). I have the port on that for the old CPR plugged.

I also want to note that I have verified that I have the FIdle output control of ground to the vacuum advance solenoid and idle speed motor properly configured, as I do NOT get vacuum going to the solenoid at idle.

opethmike
10-25-2011, 10:41 PM
Very irritating evening.

Results from tonight:
Fuel pressure is 42 PSI
Blocked off idle air feed
Tested map pressure by sucking on-line; I can get it down to about 70

I loaded up a clean tune to start from a good base (Owen's, actually), and tried playing around with the # squirts/alternating vs. simultaneous, etc. Car wouldn't fire up. Ended up running the battery down.

Went and bought new battery (yay to big30 coupon code for online advance auto orders) so I could keep testing while charging other battery.

Still couldn't get car to fire up. Tried increasing fueling as I had before (which is the only way I could get it to run before), I still couldn't get it to fire up. Ended up flooding too. I flood cleared by disconnect the wiring from the fuel injectors (don't have my throttle spool installed yet) and turning the engine over for a while. I'm calling it flooded because I pulled some plugs, and they were wet with fuel.

Interestingly enough, when flooded fuel ignited, the car run for a second or two at a rock steady 900 RPM.

After flood clearing, I checked the plugs again - dry, but completely black, so at this point I was very irritated and packed up for the night.

I'm going to need to clean the plugs before I try again, as I seriously doubt they would produce any good spark with how they are right now.

I'm quite annoyed right now, so I'm going to walk away from the EFI portion of my winter work for a week or two, and get back to my by-hand full car regrain. At least that's something I can get right.

Spittybug
10-26-2011, 10:07 AM
Sorry to hear about all your troubles; you did the right thing by walking away however. Fiddling with too many variables at once will only make things worse.

Fuel pressure seems fine. I assume that you watched the vacuum gauge when testing the MAP sensor. Did it behave OK, going up and down as expected?

When you blocked off the idle air, did you crack the butterflies open a bit either by adjusting the set screw or just using the gas pedal? If they are fully closed and you aren't getting ANY air, then you WILL flood the car, foul the plugs and get all of the same symptoms of when the car was pumping too much fuel to accommodate the extra air you were letting in. I would "smoke test" your setup again with the idle air blocked off and see if you are indeed not leaking. Then open up the butterflies a hair.

I know you said you started with a new tune (mine), but have you ever re-flashed the MS software onto the unit? You know, the whole jumper pin and DOS-like interface steps? I can email you my folder of MS2e_3.1.0 files if you want to try a fresh one. I can't attach a folder of files here.

Since you said the car was running fine before these last attempts, we can rule out spark related issues. This is air or fuel obviously.

I'm going to ask Sean to move these posts of your car's conversion to a dedicated thread in the EFI projects section.

dmc6960
10-26-2011, 01:41 PM
On the plus side, I did finally get a chance to take some high quality photos of my throttle spool setup. I did forget my camera at home today though, so it'll be tonight or tomorrow before I post them.

Spittybug
10-26-2011, 02:20 PM
On the plus side, I did finally get a chance to take some high quality photos of my throttle spool setup. I did forget my camera at home today though, so it'll be tonight or tomorrow before I post them.

Jim, do us a favor and start a thread like Adam, Mike and I have. That way you can show us your work and let it serve as a reference for anyone that wishes to learn from you! This EFI sub forum is intended to help make the process easier for the many that have the desire, but fear the lack of documentation or support to make it happen. You've done some good stuff to your car, show it off!
:thumbup:

opethmike
10-26-2011, 03:57 PM
Sorry to hear about all your troubles; you did the right thing by walking away however. Fiddling with too many variables at once will only make things worse.

Fuel pressure seems fine. I assume that you watched the vacuum gauge when testing the MAP sensor. Did it behave OK, going up and down as expected?

When you blocked off the idle air, did you crack the butterflies open a bit either by adjusting the set screw or just using the gas pedal? If they are fully closed and you aren't getting ANY air, then you WILL flood the car, foul the plugs and get all of the same symptoms of when the car was pumping too much fuel to accommodate the extra air you were letting in. I would "smoke test" your setup again with the idle air blocked off and see if you are indeed not leaking. Then open up the butterflies a hair.

I know you said you started with a new tune (mine), but have you ever re-flashed the MS software onto the unit? You know, the whole jumper pin and DOS-like interface steps? I can email you my folder of MS2e_3.1.0 files if you want to try a fresh one. I can't attach a folder of files here.

Since you said the car was running fine before these last attempts, we can rule out spark related issues. This is air or fuel obviously.


Yeah, it was definitely walk-away time. That's the nice thing about doing this project over the winter, I have 4-5 months of the car just sitting anyway, so walking away for a few days or a week/whatever to relieve stress isn't a big deal.

The MAP sensor gauge did indeed show vacuum going up and down while sucking on the tube.

Nope, I did not open the throttle while cranking the car after blocking off the idle air port. I haven't rigged up a throttle spool yet. I should really do that before I get back to trying to get the stupid thing to run.

I actually did install firmware yesterday; the latest release, which is 3.1.1. I'll likely do that again when I get back to it so I am starting from a clean point again.

So my current next steps are:
Install throttle spool so I can control throttle via gas pedal
'Reset' engine bay (unblock idle speed motor, etc)
Reload 3.1.1 firmware to 'reset' ECU
Reload Owen's base tune
Clean spark plugs
Testing steps
Try to start car from there
If no start, plug idle speed motor and crack throttle slightly while trying to start

Not sure what other test steps to add. Please let me know what suggestions you have, if any.


On the plus side, I did finally get a chance to take some high quality photos of my throttle spool setup. I did forget my camera at home today though, so it'll be tonight or tomorrow before I post them.

Awesome, thanks.


Jim, do us a favor and start a thread like Adam, Mike and I have. That way you can show us your work and let it serve as a reference for anyone that wishes to learn from you! This EFI sub forum is intended to help make the process easier for the many that have the desire, but fear the lack of documentation or support to make it happen. You've done some good stuff to your car, show it off!
:thumbup:

His post is actually regarding a request I sent him via a PM on Facebook. He has the same intake manifold that I have, so I wanted to see how he did his throttle spool set up.

After last night, I'm thinking about drilling and tapping a fuel rail for a Schrader fitting - my rails do not have one, so I had to disconnect lines to install an inline gauge. Pain in the butt.

dmc6960
10-26-2011, 04:00 PM
I'll get that going too. Mike had specifically asked me for information and pictures of my throttle setup since I had to significantly modify it to work on our engines. The Z7U throttle spool has two versions best I understand - one which works with our water pump and one which doesn't.

Spittybug
10-26-2011, 05:22 PM
After last night, I'm thinking about drilling and tapping a fuel rail for a Schrader fitting - my rails do not have one, so I had to disconnect lines to install an inline gauge. Pain in the butt.

I simply threaded a hole into the top of the fuel rail and screwed in a permanent gauge. I think I got it for ~$20. Boy, looking at those valve covers in the picture is making me want to go shine them up!

opethmike
10-26-2011, 06:41 PM
I simply threaded a hole into the top of the fuel rail and screwed in a permanent gauge. I think I got it for ~$20. Boy, looking at those valve covers in the picture is making me want to go shine them up!

That's a pretty good idea. Though, I would have to do it at the end of one of my rails as my rails taper up top and aren't very wide.

Do you have anything else to add to my 'next steps' list above?

Spittybug
10-26-2011, 08:13 PM
My rails aren't very big either; AN6. The tops of my rails are rounded. All you need is to ensure is that your drill bit doesn't wander when you start it. Drill the pilot small, then larger, then tap it. Careful and slow.

As far as next steps, I wouldn't put the idle air back into the equation yet. Just crack the butterflies either with the adjustment screw or with the gas pedal. We don't want an unknown entity letting air in or out. Control your variables.

opethmike
10-27-2011, 12:37 AM
Going to do the Version 1 installation of my throttle spool tomorrow. I may or may not play around with getting the car to start.

Spittybug
10-27-2011, 09:47 AM
Going to do the Version 1 installation of my throttle spool tomorrow. I may or may not play around with getting the car to start.

The positioning of your throttle linkage looks very favorable to just a straight run pull. Maybe I just can't really tell from the pictures, but it looks like you could come from the firewall, under the linkage, wrap the cable upwards around the linkage cradle and then a bit forward towards the firewall again and then attach it. That's exactly how mine is. The only fabrication was a bracket to anchor the part of the cable where the inner cable comes out of the sheath. Does your cradle have a groove in its perimeter? How about a hole for the cable end anchor to slip into? My Camaro throttle body had that, take a look in the attached picture. Although not at the final mounting angle, you can see the big cam (what I called a cradle) and the hole in the side of it to anchor the cable end. I thought I saw something comparable in your pictures......

dmc6960
10-27-2011, 10:32 AM
This particular unit has a rising rate mechanism attached to it. Therefore, 1/2 pedal travel equals somewhere between 1/8 and 1/4 throttle travel. Then near the end it shoots all the way up to 100%. Attachment for this rising rate unit is a ball-stud just like the OEM throttle setup. I'm unsure how one would directly attach a throttle wire to it.

Here are the pictures of what I did to my throttle spool (the Z7U unit). It is actually flipped upside down, with one portion cut off, and two other portions bent flat. I used a nut/bolt/fenderwasher to attach the cable to the spool. Normaly it would appear a crimped end would hook onto the spool, but our cable doesn't have a crimped end. I then used two custom bent brackets to bolt the throttle spool to (it no longer has any attachment the same as it used to). The bigger aluminum bracket serves double-duty to also hold the throttle cable. I had originally planned to have everything here cleaned up and painted nice for the 2010 DCS, but I ran out of time. They'll get cleaned up next spring for DCS 2012 if I stick with what I have then. The car was driven daily for nearly all of 2010 and 2011 driving seasons like this.

I am pondering getting a different throttle this winter, as this one is too small for full power of my HO engine. If you are unable to get yours working Mike, mine could possibly be available if I go that route.

Spittybug
10-27-2011, 10:40 AM
Would our stock throttle spool work if the linkage arm to the ball joint was the correct length? Mounting it may be a bit of a challenge given the absence of the existing manifold assembly......

dmc6960
10-27-2011, 12:03 PM
Would our stock throttle spool work if the linkage arm to the ball joint was the correct length? Mounting it may be a bit of a challenge given the absence of the existing manifold assembly......

You just answered your own question right there. I could not figure out ANY way to adapt the stock throttle spool, and I tried long and hard. The new manifold is just too different.

opethmike
10-27-2011, 12:04 PM
Jim - Thank you for the pictures. I do have something a little (okay, a lot) different planned for how I am going to attach the throttle spool, but they do answer a few questions I had.

Owen - I've only really quickly looked into the stock spool, but it doesn't seem really feasible. A little hard for me to articulate why, but I think I can make the spool that came with my manifold work a little more easily.

Spittybug
10-27-2011, 01:04 PM
Ahhhh...... :rolleyes1: (he says nodding). The curse of the mechanical details.

opethmike
10-27-2011, 08:44 PM
Guess whose car starts and idles on Megasquirt? Oh yeah, that's right - MINE DOES!

What I did:

Blocked off the idle speed motor
Open the throttle by adjusting the screw several turns

Car now starts and idles smoothly.

Whenever I unblock the idle speed motor, the car will start hunting and then die. So that's another issue to figure out. But the extremely positive news is that I can get the car to start and idle.

I have attach my tunes/logs/notes from tonight. Please take a look and let me know what you think.

It will rev nicely when I turn the throttle by hand, with a tiny bit of hesitation right off of idle.

Next EFI steps:

install wiring grommet
install throttle spool
install air filter
install interior
take for a drive around the block

Spittybug
10-27-2011, 09:20 PM
:cheers: :strongman: :hippo: :thankyou: :partyhat:

The gang is all celebrating! If that isn't a driving force to dig in and totally get rid of the stock idle air setup, I don't know what is! A simple GM IAC valve in some kind of housing will work. It is very hard to go "hybrid" when converting.

I will take a look at your files and let you know if I see anything.

Good job hanging in there.


****Just looked at log files. Not bad. Pretty smooth with the exception of the throttle position, but since you are still playing with it I wouldn't worry about it yet. Did it seem happy? Did you let it run long enough to warm up and come off the warm up enrichment? You want to make sure it is all warm and then set the idle set screw. Before it gets warm is when the idle air settings are important. Nice stable idle RPMs; that's good! You'll be amazed at how much you can accomplish now that you are over this hurdle.

opethmike
10-27-2011, 10:04 PM
****Just looked at log files. Not bad. Pretty smooth with the exception of the throttle position, but since you are still playing with it I wouldn't worry about it yet. Did it seem happy? Did you let it run long enough to warm up and come off the warm up enrichment? You want to make sure it is all warm and then set the idle set screw. Before it gets warm is when the idle air settings are important. Nice stable idle RPMs; that's good! You'll be amazed at how much you can accomplish now that you are over this hurdle.

Yeah, I'll likely get around to going to a modern idle air control valve if I can't get the current one to work.

I let the car run up to temp several times (I ran/shut off a bunch of times). Up to temp meaning the cooling fans would cycle.

The throttle position is likely fluctuating because I only have half of the bracket made, and the sensor moves around a tiny bit.

Car seemed quite happy - no backfires, pings, etc. I slowly revved it up to red line twice, and it deal with that fine. It would also deal fine with me revving it up to around cruising idle and then letting going of the throttle.

Once the car was warm, the idle RPMs were pretty much right where I want them.

Once I get that taken care of, and the throttle spool installed, I should be able to take the car for a careful drive around the block. Is there anything particularly bad about not temporarily have an idle speed motor?

Big thanks to all of you guys that have helped me with this, I REALLY appreciate it.

Spittybug
10-27-2011, 10:21 PM
Is there anything particularly bad about not temporarily have an idle speed motor?

Nope. Only necessary for easy startup. Once warm it should be fully closed and the idle is accomplished via the preset gap in the butterflies.

opethmike
10-27-2011, 10:35 PM
Great, thanks for the info. Once I've gotten the car around the block a few times, I'm going to put together a document on how I did my installation. At that point, it should just be drive and tune time.

Farrar
10-27-2011, 11:00 PM
Go, Mike, go! *root, root, root*

:D

opethmike
10-27-2011, 11:17 PM
Go, Mike, go! *root, root, root*

:D

Thanks Farrar!

dmc6960
10-28-2011, 12:35 AM
In all fairness to the stock idle system, there is no problem fitting it to an EFI system. It is completely independent and very stable when working correctly. I would suspect there may be an issue with the air supply to/from it or perhaps the coil- pickup for MS is interfering with it's own ignition sensing. I've been running it on MS for 2 years now. I'd also consider this type of system superior than a stepper motor because it can dynamically adjust any change in engine conditions.

Congrats on getting it running.

Bitsyncmaster
10-28-2011, 05:26 AM
In all fairness to the stock idle system, there is no problem fitting it to an EFI system. It is completely independent and very stable when working correctly. I would suspect there may be an issue with the air supply to/from it or perhaps the coil- pickup for MS is interfering with it's own ignition sensing. I've been running it on MS for 2 years now. I'd also consider this type of system superior than a stepper motor because it can dynamically adjust any change in engine conditions.

Congrats on getting it running.

I knew you would be getting it going quickly. Bet your grinning ear to ear.

The stock idle system should really work good without the lambda system driving a hunting mode. The Volvo ISM seems to be a lot better than our stock ISM. Also smaller and less current when running.

Spittybug
10-28-2011, 10:26 AM
Jim, I hear you on the stock idle, but I guess I would wonder why one would keep it? As far as a system is concerned, it is more complicated than needed in this day and age, don't you think?

A switch to only activate it when throttle = 0
A temp sensor so that it gives "extra" air on a cold engine
A sizeable control box in the car
A difficult-to-service motor unit
Wiring between all of them
Fixed idle speed per factory
It's big and bulky


Right now I'm using the standard idle air choices in Megasquirt which allow me to use a stepper motor (tons of GM ones available cheap) for which I define the initial amount of extra air that comes in and the pace at which it slowly cuts out. The attached pic is of a menu item in my Megasquirt that I have not yet played with; apparently it is the equivalent of a closed loop idle circuit that allows the user to set up the conditions under which the idle air controller opens up. This could be used to compensate for A/C kicking on and off at idle - a feature I believe Bitsyncmaster has been perfecting with some of his work. I will be learning/playing with this feature soon and will post in the hardware section. The biggest issue with the IAC is the fabrication of a housing within which to put the stepper valve. I hope to remedy that as posted in the "stock conversion" brainstorming thread.

***OK, I did a little reading on this feature and it is for controlling only the idle ignition timing and not the air itself. For the time being then I will continue to do what I have been which is to adjust the fueling table (VE) so that when the A/C kicks on at idle and the RPMs drop, the resulting table bin has a bit more fuel in it, bringing the RPM back up a bit. It's the functional equivalent of having 2 idle bins and as the A/C kicks on or off, the other bin compensates. Alternatively, one could go with a second fueling table and make the trigger to switch over be the drop in RPM. I'm not sure how to do that quite yet.....

********There are indeed closed-loop idle valve settings under the startup/idle tab. Time for more research. I knew I'd seen them somewhere!

Ron
10-28-2011, 10:36 AM
Go, Mike, go! *root, root, root*

:D
I knew the regraining wouldn't last long (with MSQ whispering his name).:D

dmc6960
10-28-2011, 10:45 AM
I dont think. It was incredibly advanced for its time, and I'd say still on par with the best of today...


Jim, I hear you on the stock idle, but I guess I would wonder why one would keep it? As far as a system is concerned, it is more complicated than needed in this day and age, don't you think?

A switch to only activate it when throttle = 0
As Dave found out the switch is only for the vacuum advance solenoid, the idle computer stays active the whole time.
A temp sensor so that it gives "extra" air on a cold engine
Which I have yet to see actually do anything other than raise the idle on a car with faulty wiring to the sensor. (and in MN I've been driven my D in some damn cold temps!)
A sizeable control box in the car
You got me there, but its not like its taking up space that wasn't already taken up by it.
A difficult-to-service motor unit
120,000+ miles and I haven't done a single thing to my idle motor other than occasionally removing it for engine service.
Wiring between all of them
All electronic idle controls need wires!
Fixed idle speed per factory
And its perfectly set!
It's big and bulky
But it still fits my setup!



I have seriously pondered continuing to use the stock idle motor or the smaller volvo one but using Megasquirt to control it. Unfortunately though the difficulty in setting that up is high. Megasquirt needs a few mods to work properly with a PWM idle setup (since its designed for solenoid or stepper control) and Dave has been working long and hard on his software which I doubt the MS is as advanced as his.

If I end up getting a throttle body with an integrated stepper idle motor, then perhaps I'll revisit it. Otherwise I'm sticking to what I have. It is, after all, the least effort involved which was my goal on the initial EFI conversion.

My favorite part about it though, is the dynamic throttle control. I can fully engage the clutch at a mild speed without touching the throttle. Works nice when on a hill. I can just keep my food on the brake until I feel the engine loaded, let off the brake and I'm moving forwards now, not backwards.

Bitsyncmaster
10-28-2011, 11:35 AM
The stock idle ECU uses the temp sensor to adjust the ISM open position when the car is started. But it instantly goes closed loop to 775 RPM so you don't notice it working unless you loose the connection then you get 2500 RPM.

I use the temp sensor for the same starting position but also use it to position the ISM on a sudden deceleration then go closed loop. I still need to work on my software because my first beta tester is still having hunting issues. I plan to have quite a few units at DCS to let users try it on their car. My car shows no problems but with the colder weather coming in I have to get more hours road testing. I'm hoping to get my car showing the hunt problem so I can code a fix.

Spittybug
10-28-2011, 11:56 AM
Valid points. I by no means wanted to turn this into a "better than" discussion. My choice was simple since my throttle body had an integrated idle air stepper motor. How did you plumb your stock one to your new manifold?

It also comes as a surprise to me learn that the micro switch only controls the vacuum advance. I read in section D:05:02 of the manual: "The idle speed control system is only in operation when a microswitch (Fig. 37) is closed by the throttle plates being in a fully closed position". I must have missed Dave's post about discovering otherwise. The fact that it is a closed loop system at all times is definitely a plus and as such, if working properly, I'd agree with you that it's worth keeping with stock setup. I'm going to post a link in the "stock conversion" thread to this discussion (or maybe ask Sean to move) so that it can help make such a conversion even easier. It's looking more and more simple to modify an existing manifold setup.......

dmc6960
10-28-2011, 04:04 PM
Valid points. I by no means wanted to turn this into a "better than" discussion. My choice was simple since my throttle body had an integrated idle air stepper motor. How did you plumb your stock one to your new manifold?

Agree with not wanting a "better than" discussion, we're above that. :)

With regards to the idle air pluming, the throttle body which comes with the Z7U manifold has a very convenient idle air input port right on it. Its designed to also put the air right over the intake air temp sensor, so your not reading excessive hotter stagnant air at idle (you still get some though). Input to the idle motor now comes from the airbox-crankcase vent line (remember I retained the stock air filter). I was initially concerned about gumming up the motor with oil mist, but that has so far been a non-issue. I've checked it a few times and it is still dry.

6388

opethmike
10-30-2011, 08:25 PM
Went back to the car today after a weekend away in Detroit. With the idle speed motor plugged, the throttle needs to be manually cracked to start, and held open until the car is warm. After that, its closer to stable, but not quite right.

I definitely don't want to keep screwing with MS until I get a modern idle air control valve. I tried plugging the stock idle speed motor back in, but it results in a crazy hunt.

opethmike
10-31-2011, 12:36 AM
Looking like the best option for a modern IAC is for me to get the diyautotune IAC body (pricey, but what can you do) and a Wells AC320 IAC.

I'll have to use a small series of hoses and reducing couplers to fit the small barbs on the IAC body to the very large idle air port on the throttle body.

Spittybug
10-31-2011, 09:58 AM
Mike, I've been doing my testing with this guy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/STANDARD-SMP-IDLE-AIR-CONTROL-VALVE-IAC-AC174-/150669877172?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item23149fdfb4#ht_1477wt_1396 and haven't had any problems with it. I have no data on long-term reliability however. As far as the machined IAC body goes, $65 is a bit high, but given the time to prototype one and then machining every one, etc... I'ts not high by much. Do you perhaps have a nipple on the manifold you can connect it to instead of the big air port? So long as you get into the manifold you should be alright; it shouldn't need to be at the throttle body itself. Also, no rush! All of your tuning should be done at temperature anyway, so the only hassle is getting running initially.

dmc6960
10-31-2011, 11:37 AM
Ideally Mike would want it at the throttle, not the manifold, since that is where the intake air temp sensor is. If the idle air is bypassing that, long extended idles will go way out of whack on their mixtures.

Bitsyncmaster
10-31-2011, 11:41 AM
If your GM idle air valve is a switching operation it will probably work with the stock or my new idle ECU. You would just connect one terminal to the center stock connector and one to one side of the stock connector. If moves the idle the wrong way then use the other pin in the stock connector. The stock ECU PWMs the output at 100 Hz. Mine runs a little higher at 120 Hz.

I would think that air valve would have less chance of being sticky like the rotating stock valve. The question is if it has the same range of control as a stock one.

I may try one when I cross a few projects of my to do list.

opethmike
10-31-2011, 01:09 PM
Just wanted to throw in a quick thanks to you guys helping me out. Getting the car to where I can get it to start and sort-of idle with a little manual intervention is a great motivating step, and I couldn't have done it without you guys.

Question for Jim Reeve - Your set up works fine with the stock idle motor, right? Any thoughts on why with mine I seem to get too much air, leading to a hunt?

opethmike
11-03-2011, 01:33 PM
McMaster order for hoses and adapters and clamps has arrived. If the diyautotune order for the housing and pigtail, and the ebay order for the IAC arrive today or tomorrow, I'll have the IAC setup addressed this weekend.

If not, that will give me time to take care of a number of other dangling issues, like the throttle setup, air filter housing, etc.

opethmike
11-03-2011, 03:52 PM
So one port one on the IAC body is supposed to be connected to the air filter. This is probably a silly question, but can anyone think of a reason that I should NOT just install one of those miniature air filters instead of routing it to the normal air filter?

Bitsyncmaster
11-03-2011, 05:02 PM
So one port one on the IAC body is supposed to be connected to the air filter. This is probably a silly question, but can anyone think of a reason that I should NOT just install one of those miniature air filters instead of routing it to the normal air filter?

You will want filtered air but how you do it is up to you. I just think using the existing air filter looks more professional.

opethmike
11-03-2011, 05:27 PM
You will want filtered air but how you do it is up to you. I just think using the existing air filter looks more professional.

Hah, with all of the plugs, caps, and mismatched color vacuum lines I already have, the last thing this install looks is professional :-)

opethmike
11-05-2011, 12:14 AM
Damn good mood right -

Preliminary installation and wiring of the IAC has been completed. Still need to mount it, but that's no big deal.

Car fires, starts and idles quite nicely right now. Obviously going to need a few iterations of cold start tuning to get the IAC, cranking pulses, etc right, but it will start and stay running at a nice, stable idle every time now.

Left to do:

Permanently mount IAC
Wrap up IAC wiring
Install a wiring grommet to protect wires where they go through firewall
Finish the TPS bracket
Run new throttle cable and install throttle spool
Permanently affix the MS ECU

One thing that I found that was irritating the shit out of me was that the ECU would randomly reset. Following the diagnostics guide out of the documentation, I unplugged my alternator, and the resets stopped. So I need to install an inline noise filter.

I should be able to do most, if not all, of that tomorrow (Saturday). If that is the case, I will be taking the car for a gentle drive around the block on Sunday!

opethmike
11-05-2011, 12:50 AM
Oh yeah, and I need to install an air filter.

opethmike
11-05-2011, 05:24 PM
Left to do:

Finish the TPS bracket
Run new throttle cable and install throttle spool
Permanently affix the MS ECU

Some pictures are attached. Excuse the clear hoses to the IAC; I had them handy, so I used them. I'll replace those with black soon.

opethmike
11-06-2011, 07:20 PM
Woohoo! Physical installation of everything is now complete. Had to bend the throttle pedal arm a little bit to get 100% range on the throttle spool.

Couldn't find an inline noise filter locally, so I am going to have to order one. If I plug the alternator in, the ECU resets like crazy. With it unplugged, the ECU is just fine. So, according to the MS documentation, an inline noise filter will solve that issue.

So (and I know, not a brilliant idea), after letting the car warm up, my friend and I took it for a drive around his neighborhood. Obviously not a whole lot of driving since the car was running on straight battery, but we did drive it through the first three gears. Drove gently, and never went over 3,000 RPM.

Observations:

1. Idle is a bit high, around 1,500 RPMs. Playing with the IAC steps didn't affect that, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to adjust the throttle stop screw.

2. When starting off, the car hesitates a little bit at the very beginning of right off of idle. Not sure what the cause of that could be.

3. Once past that point (didn't think to check what throttle %age), it accelerates nice and smoothly without any sputtering, hesitation, backing firing or sluggishness.

If anyone has any thoughts on observation #2, please let me know.

AdmiralSenn
11-06-2011, 07:39 PM
First of all, congratulations!

Second of all, double congratulations for duplicating my car's symptoms!

Step one to solve the hesitation is to make sure your VE table is smooth up through that left-hand "high load, no speed" area. Step two is to ignore it until you're ready to tune acceleration enrichment, because that's what AE is for. I bet if you touch the throttle suuuuuuuuuuuuuper slowly at idle it either doesn't hesitate at all or it's markedly less noticeable. Christine does the exact same thing - a slight stumble at first and then she takes off like nothing happened. Once you get your VE table dialed in the rest of the way you can play with the AE settings.

My car also likes to idle high; I suspect another vacuum leak somewhere in my case. I actually REMOVED the set screw and the car still idles at ~800 RPM. Since you've been through so much on the vacuum leak front already I think you just need an adjustment. I also suspect that the car may actually be breathing through the charcoal filter or one of the other vacuum connections, so that may be worth checking too.

opethmike
11-06-2011, 08:27 PM
Thanks Adam, I appreciate the congrats and the advice. While I definitely have plenty of work ahead of me, I am absolutely on cloud nine tonight. It feels like a huge accomplishment to be able to (sort of) drive not only an EFI DeLorean, but one that I converted myself.

Question - Where do you get ground from? I ask because if I have my alternator plugged in, the MS experiences crazy resets. I am running ground straight from the battery, which according to James Cortina on the MS boards is a no no.

Spittybug
11-06-2011, 10:10 PM
Thanks Adam, I appreciate the congrats and the advice. While I definitely have plenty of work ahead of me, I am absolutely on cloud nine tonight. It feels like a huge accomplishment to be able to (sort of) drive not only an EFI DeLorean, but one that I converted myself.

Question - Where do you get ground from? I ask because if I have my alternator plugged in, the MS experiences crazy resets. I am running ground straight from the battery, which according to James Cortina on the MS boards is a no no.

Mike, you want to get all of your grounds (sensors, injectors and ECU) all from the same point, otherwise you start getting some odd voltage differential issues apparently. I ground all of mine to the driver side head, near where the vacuum advance solenoid was located. Congrats on the progress, feels good doesn't it? The stumble could indeed be insufficient fuel in the low RPM, higher load bins. Check your log and see how the AFR looks at that point. If your idle was 1500 after the car was warm, then yes, you either have a vacuum leak or your butterflies need to be closed a bit more.

opethmike
11-06-2011, 10:23 PM
Mike, you want to get all of your grounds (sensors, injectors and ECU) all from the same point, otherwise you start getting some odd voltage differential issues apparently. I ground all of mine to the driver side head, near where the vacuum advance solenoid was located. Congrats on the progress, feels good doesn't it? The stumble could indeed be insufficient fuel in the low RPM, higher load bins. Check your log and see how the AFR looks at that point. If your idle was 1500 after the car was warm, then yes, you either have a vacuum leak or your butterflies need to be closed a bit more.

They are all from the same point. Remember, I am using the relay board, which has one single ground path on it.

Yep, that was with the car warm. I doubt a vacuum leak, but its quick and easy enough to smoke test for one. If I don't find one, I'll just adjust the throttle stop.

Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look at that fueling area.

Farrar
11-06-2011, 10:57 PM
Couldn't find an inline noise filter locally,

I know I am late to the party here, but do you mean a choke? Radio Shack used to stock those for a buck or two each.

Farrar

opethmike
11-06-2011, 11:11 PM
I know I am late to the party here, but do you mean a choke? Radio Shack used to stock those for a buck or two each.

Farrar

Yeah, tried a few different stores, but none of them carry them.

AdmiralSenn
11-07-2011, 12:21 AM
Hmm. Wonder why James recommends against grounding at the battery. I have mine run to the battery and have no grounding or reset issues at all.

Can you upload a log of the stumbling? And/or your MSQ?

opethmike
11-07-2011, 12:34 AM
I would, but I forgot my USB thumb drive with the information at the place I keep the car. For the hell of it, I'm going to reroute the ground to the engine block tomorrow and see if it makes any difference. I'll be amazed if it does.

Bitsyncmaster
11-07-2011, 04:16 AM
An alternator choke would need to carry >100 amps. Maybe a ground wire on the alternator case may help.

It was interesting reading on the MS idle control. Looks like I came up with most of the ways they do it also. They even have a learning mode to pop the ISM back when you drop past a set RPM. They also close the ISM above a set RPM.

Ron
11-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Yeah, tried a few different stores, but none of them carry them.You might try a sound system store...ask for an "isolation module".

DCUK Martin
11-07-2011, 10:23 AM
You could just try a largeish capacitor or something like this (I google'd "high power zener diode")

http://www.littelfuse.com/tvs-diode.html?gclid=CNabk_7ppKwCFQEd4Qodkj9F_w

Spittybug
11-07-2011, 10:30 AM
An alternator choke would need to carry >100 amps. Maybe a ground wire on the alternator case may help.

It was interesting reading on the MS idle control. Looks like I came up with most of the ways they do it also. They even have a learning mode to pop the ISM back when you drop past a set RPM. They also close the ISM above a set RPM.

It's really rather elegant. Since the idle control valve (IAC) is a stepper motor that can be extended or retracted at any pace, the software allows you to set up all of the parameters for the idle air. You set:

How many steps to fully seat the "pintle" against the housing, thus blocking all air
How many steps to back off from fully closed, thus opening up the air passage
How many steps to get to your final position (not necessarily fully closed, but generally is) thus slowly reducing the idle air
How quickly to move that distance

And remember, this is done based upon engine coolant temperature, so the third step is a variable whose value is determined by current conditions. There is a distinction between cranking air and once-started air as well.

I haven't yet begun to play with the closed loop capabilities of it; lots of reading to do. The promise is great however since the ability to have the IAC bump the idle up or down based on the load (A/C or other power drain) is nice.

Bitsyncmaster
11-07-2011, 10:31 AM
Really going to be hard to filter the alternator output since it has such high current. You may have a faulty diode in the alternator and would only see that with an O-scope or low output power. I wonder if the charge light wire can introduce noise. Maybe try a capacitor on that wire near the alternator.

DCUK Martin
11-07-2011, 10:37 AM
I think you'd be better off with a capacitor on the input to the ECU if it's the ECU that is having probems.

The main battery is intended to provide the supression to the alternator usually.

dmc6960
11-07-2011, 04:11 PM
Yea, dont bother filtering the whole car. Filter just the 12v into the ECU. Thats less than a car stereo draws.

opethmike
11-07-2011, 04:19 PM
Yea, dont bother filtering the whole car. Filter just the 12v into the ECU. Thats less than a car stereo draws.

That's the plan :-)

opethmike
11-07-2011, 09:03 PM
Well, unfortunately, moving the ground to the engine block did nothing to alleviate my reset issues. The MS will reset like mad as long as I have the alternator plugged in. As soon as I unplug it, the system stabilizes.

That side, I did get my idle down to the desired 950 tonight with a little adjustment of the throttle stop. One thing that I have noticed is that my dash tachometer reads about ~200 RPM higher than what Tuner Studio reports. Based on engine sound, I would say that the MS is reporting the right RPM and that the dash gauge is not.

dmc6960
11-07-2011, 10:49 PM
The lower the voltage to the tachometer, the higher it will read above real RPM. Dash might have a corroded fuse #5 or poor grounds. Could also be a bad connection on the flex board.

opethmike
11-07-2011, 11:05 PM
Thanks Jim. Where is the ground for the dash tachometer?

opethmike
11-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Actually, the tachometer has a pretty obvious cause; I've been running the car for a few minutes at a time with the alternator unplugged, so voltage is low throughout the system.

After some discussion with Marc Levy over on Facebook, I'm going to add some grounds to the system that may not necessarily solve the reset problem, but will be good for the electrical system regardless. I am also going to move the ground for the MS ECU back to the battery.

As for resolving the reset problem, I am planning on the following testing:

Reconnect alternator, and start car. See what the voltage is while revving to make sure that the regulator isn't busted and allowing too much voltage.

Temporarily connect 12v switched to battery to see if resets go away.

Other test case suggestions would be appreciated.

Another thing I was thinking about:

The MS ECU has two 12v supplies; one live, one switched. The live I am running straight to battery. For the switched, I tapped into the green wire going into the RPM relay. That's the fuel pump wire.

Since a fuel pump can be 'noisy', I'm thinking its a good idea to the switched 12v source to another wire. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable with the DMC's electrical system, so I would appreciate your suggestions. It needs to be a switched 12v source that supplies power during cranking.

Farrar
11-08-2011, 04:04 PM
Do you use your rear defogger? If memory serves its power comes from a green/white wire. That's switched 12v (with key on).

In fact, I believe all green/white wires are switched power -- current when key in position On or Start.

Farrar

Spittybug
11-08-2011, 05:16 PM
The MS ECU has two 12v supplies; one live, one switched. The live I am running straight to battery. For the switched, I tapped into the green wire going into the RPM relay. That's the fuel pump wire.

Since a fuel pump can be 'noisy', I'm thinking its a good idea to the switched 12v source to another wire. But I'm not particularly knowledgeable with the DMC's electrical system, so I would appreciate your suggestions. It needs to be a switched 12v source that supplies power during cranking.

I didn't realize you had done this..... You DEFINITELY want the fuel pump and the MS ECU on different circuits. The fuel pump, being a motor device, is "noisy" as you put it. I have the fuel pump on a dedicated, fused circuit that is fed directly from battery (+), to the relay that MS pin #37 grounds (from green 12v on run wire in RPM relay), and back to the RPM relay socket where it connects to the purple/white wire that goes to the fuel pump via the inertia switch. The injectors are on their own relay which is switched by the same green wire in RPM socket, power from brown wire in RPM socket, grounded post injectors to the block. The ECU and the LC1 are both on a third relay, switched by the same green wire, power from same brown in RPM relay. Those playing along at home will notice relays 2 & 3 are switched and fed from the same sources, and are thus redundant. Yes. I did it like that just in case the injectors proved "noisy" also, that way all I would have to do is supply that relay with another 12v feed. So far I don't think I need to, but my MAP and TPS sensors are a bit noisy, so I wonder if that might be the cause.......

opethmike
11-08-2011, 06:11 PM
The ECU and the LC1 are both on a third relay, switched by the same green wire, power from same brown in RPM relay.

Wait... I'm confused - the switched 12v for MS should not be the same as the switched 12v for the fuel pump (green wire). But from your description it sounds to me like what you're doing is just that? Help a confused man out, please :biggrin:

justlooking
11-08-2011, 07:11 PM
Wait... I'm confused - the switched 12v for MS should not be the same as the switched 12v for the fuel pump (green wire). But from your description it sounds to me like what you're doing is just that? Help a confused man out, please :biggrin:

There is no reason not to use the green wire for your switched 12V. It is not on the same circuit as the fuel pump. The fuel pump is on fuse #7, as is well known by everyone who's ever had a melted fusebox. The green wire you're using is on fuse #1.

Not sure why your MS is resetting. I connect my power wire directly to the battery. It is fused within the relay board. You are using the relay board, right?

opethmike
11-08-2011, 07:21 PM
Yes, I am using the relay board. That has two power wires; one for switched, one for live. I have live hooked up straight to the battery. I have switched hooked up to the green wire.

Bitsyncmaster
11-08-2011, 07:42 PM
I agree the green wire should be fairly clean. It does power the advance solenoid, idle speed ECU, ISM and Lambda. I would guess you have your Lambda unplugged.

Definitely check your voltage with the alternator running for over voltage.

You can filter the switched power to the MS by feeding that green wire through a diode and then a capacitor on the other side of the diode. You may not need the capacitor if the MS has some large capacitors in it. My guess is the diode would fix your problem.

Spittybug
11-08-2011, 07:49 PM
Wait... I'm confused - the switched 12v for MS should not be the same as the switched 12v for the fuel pump (green wire). But from your description it sounds to me like what you're doing is just that? Help a confused man out, please :biggrin:

Don't get confused between the "trigger" voltage and the "switched" voltage. Sorry if these aren't the correct terms, but what I'm trying to say is that it is the switched voltage load that must be separate, not the trigger voltage source. The current draw for activating the relay's is minimal; all those that need to be from a run-only source can be from the same one.

opethmike
11-08-2011, 07:49 PM
There is no reason not to use the green wire for your switched 12V. It is not on the same circuit as the fuel pump. The fuel pump is on fuse #7, as is well known by everyone who's ever had a melted fusebox. The green wire you're using is on fuse #1.

Not sure why your MS is resetting. I connect my power wire directly to the battery. It is fused within the relay board. You are using the relay board, right?

My ECU only resets when the alternator is plugged in. Does that information provide any clues for you?


I agree the green wire should be fairly clean. It does power the advance solenoid, idle speed ECU, ISM and Lambda. I would guess you have your Lambda unplugged.

Definitely check your voltage with the alternator running for over voltage.

You can filter the switched power to the MS by feeding that green wire through a diode and then a capacitor on the other side of the diode. You may not need the capacitor if the MS has some large capacitors in it. My guess is the diode would fix your problem.

Thanks for the thoughts, Dave. My current to do list for getting past this issue:

move ECU ground back to battery
plug alternator back in
start car & check for over-voltage
move switched 12v to battery temporarily and see if resets go away

DCUK Martin
11-09-2011, 06:11 AM
Going on what was said earlier, have you tried powering the ECU directly from the battery? That should give you a massive amount of supression!

Also.... does your rev counter over-read when you're running of battery alone? only I have seen them over-read when a battery terminal was loose.

opethmike
11-09-2011, 09:00 PM
Found the following tonight, after plugging my alternator back in:

Running the 12v switched line straight to battery didn't help
Installing a noise filter didn't help

At idle, the ECU will reset like crazy
Once the RPMs get above 1,500 or so, the resets stop completely

I hooked up a multimeter in the engine bay and found that at idle, I was getting low output: about 12.8-13.1 voltage. This would get up to 13.8 or so when I would rev the car up.

So, I'm guessing one of the following is the problem:

Alternator ground is bad and needs to be cleaned
Alternator is not "big enough" for the additional load that the new EFI system is creating
Alternator isn't good

Thoughts?

AdmiralSenn
11-09-2011, 09:24 PM
I seriously doubt that Megasquirt is drawing anywhere near enough power to even begin to affect the rest of the car's output.

The alternator itself could be the issue, or your overall grounds to the rest of the car.

However the fact that you're still seeing this with 12v switched coming off the battery implies something wrong with your wiring or with the MS unit itself.

I wonder if maybe your IAC operation is affecting the controller. Try unhooking that and maybe the ignition advance circuitry (I have it in my head that you're controlling advance similarly to the OEM setup, not sure if that's right).

My guess is that something is going wacky below the 1500 RPM mark that shuts off at higher rpms.

opethmike
11-09-2011, 09:32 PM
I seriously doubt that Megasquirt is drawing anywhere near enough power to even begin to affect the rest of the car's output.

The alternator itself could be the issue, or your overall grounds to the rest of the car.

However the fact that you're still seeing this with 12v switched coming off the battery implies something wrong with your wiring or with the MS unit itself.

I wonder if maybe your IAC operation is affecting the controller. Try unhooking that and maybe the ignition advance circuitry (I have it in my head that you're controlling advance similarly to the OEM setup, not sure if that's right).

My guess is that something is going wacky below the 1500 RPM mark that shuts off at higher rpms.

Still though, ~13 volts at idle seems way low. Plus, if it is a wiring issue or something wrong with the MS, then why do the resets go away completely when I unplug the alternator?

Because of that fact, I'm more inclined to believe that the issue has something to do with the alternator. However, I will certainly investigate all suggestions.

Spittybug
11-09-2011, 10:43 PM
Still though, ~13 volts at idle seems way low. Plus, if it is a wiring issue or something wrong with the MS, then why do the resets go away completely when I unplug the alternator?

Because of that fact, I'm more inclined to believe that the issue has something to do with the alternator. However, I will certainly investigate all suggestions.

13V at idle is fine..... I think you've found your own answer. If everything is fine WITHOUT the alternator, then the problem is associated WITH the alternator. Whether it is a grounding issue or some bad internals I can't presume to say, but your checklist of diagnostics would seem to indicate that above a certain RPM (read as alternator going "fast enough") things are ok, below that they aren't. Remove the alternator from the equation and all is fine too. Ergo, problem is with slow moving alternator. A bad ground connection would be difficult in my mind since the whole alternator via its mounts is grounded. I'd recheck all of your engine/transmission/battery cable grounds too.

This really highlights one of the biggest challenges of going EFI; it finds the real issues that are going on with your car and forces you to address them. The good news is that there are now more of us to help with those challenges! I noticed that Byrne just posted about an Autozone alternator for $80 that drops right in. I'd do that if I were you. Heck, if for some unbelievable reason that doesn't do it, just take it back. BTW, the draw by all the EFI related components other than the fuel pump are tiny....

opethmike
11-09-2011, 10:50 PM
Thanks for the input, Owen. I'm planning on doing the following tomorrow:

Following suggestions from Marc Levy to me over on Facebook -

Cleaning the ground stud on the alternator thoroughly, and the ring terminals that attach to it.

Run additional grounds for alternator

If that still doesn't resolve it, I'll remove the alternator and take it to a parts store to have it tested.

DMCMW Dave
11-09-2011, 11:11 PM
One thing that occurs to me is that an alternator is, at heart, a generator of alternating current (AC). Inside there are several (usually 9) diodes that rectify the AC to a kind of messy pulsing DC that is ultimately filtered by the battery. If you have one bad diode in the alternator it will still work but the output will be low. It will also be a messier output as it will be missing the cycle that should have been rectified by the bad diode. Your alternator test guy will see it as a low output, but if you were to put a scope on it you'd see the missing pulses.

ALSO - if the connection from the alternator to the battery is dirty (higher resistance between the alternator and the battery), the filtering effect of the battery will not be as good as it could/should be. This includes the ground connection where the alternator is hanging on the engine, the ground strap from the engine to the frame, and of course the connection from the alternator (via the starter lug) to the battery. Check everything.

So - in at least one of the cases - it gets back to "clean your grounds".:tongue:

opethmike
11-09-2011, 11:12 PM
Another point to add:

If I would add high draw things into the equation at idle, such as turning on the brights, flicking the stalk to blink the brights, turning on the A/C, etc would trigger a reset if one wasn't happening.

That puts further demand on the alternator, correct? And since, for whatever reason, the alternator seems to be having trouble meeting demand, that leads to the reset.

DMCMW Dave
11-09-2011, 11:37 PM
Yes, that could also be indication of a high resistance connection between the battery and the alternator.


Another point to add:

If I would add high draw things into the equation at idle, such as turning on the brights, flicking the stalk to blink the brights, turning on the A/C, etc would trigger a reset if one wasn't happening.

.

opethmike
11-09-2011, 11:41 PM
Thanks Dave.

I am planning on cleaning the stud and connectors on the alternator. The other end is the positive battery stud in the engine bay near the coolant bottle, correct?

DMCMW Dave
11-10-2011, 12:09 AM
Thanks Dave.

I am planning on cleaning the stud and connectors on the alternator. The other end is the positive battery stud in the engine bay near the coolant bottle, correct?

No, that's a dead end (jump start lead, no other connection). The connection is on the starter itself. The paths are:

+(positive) Alternator--> starter--> battery

-(negative) Alternator--> bracket on engine--> engine--> engine ground strap--> RH trailing arm bracket bolt--> battery.

Lots of places to pick up resistance many of them under the car and subject to corrosion, which is why the people adding direct heavy ground bus connections do see improvements. This may be even more important for you guys using modern ECUs to control engines.

One of the most important connections to clean, that everyone forgets, is the cast iron bracket that holds the alternator to the engine. Take the alternator off, clean the sides of that bracket, and even take the bracket off the engine and clean the surfaces where the bolts go through it and where it hits the engine.

You'll notice two bundles of brown wires on the alternator. One bundle goes to the starter/battery. The other one snakes over the top of the engine to the post just under the ignition coil, and feeds through the bulkhead and powers the entire rest of the car. I've seen a bad connection at that bulkhead feedthrough cause all kinds of hell.

Yes - main power to the fuse box actually flows from the alternator, over the top of the engine, through that connection and to the fuse box. The alternator is electrically closer to your loads inside the car than the battery is.

opethmike
11-10-2011, 12:26 AM
Excellent education from you as always, Dave. I appreciate it. I'll go through both those circuits you detailed and clean all of the connections.

Do you have any thoughts on what is that the alternator is doing that is causing the resets? What I mean is, that I don't understand how having the alternator hooked up can cause the reset.

If the alternator isn't working quite right, or if there is resistance in its circuit, that could cause 'spikes', which could potentially be what causes the ECU to reset?

Ron
11-10-2011, 04:16 AM
Do you have any thoughts on what is that the alternator is doing that is causing the resets? What I mean is, that I don't understand how having the alternator hooked up can cause the reset.

If the alternator isn't working quite right, or if there is resistance in its circuit, that could cause 'spikes', which could potentially be what causes the ECU to reset?

The ECU expects (and requires) fairly clean DC power/inputs. As Dave said, the alternator produces AC and converts it into DC with diodes. If one of the 6 main diodes fail the output will be low. But more important in this case is that if one fails due to it being shorted (v/s open), it will introduce AC into the system. There are also 3 other small diodes ("diode trio" on a Delco which you have IIRC) feeding the field. If one of these fail, the output will be also be low and/or introduce a "signal". If the slip rings are burnt, dirty or out of round (usually flat spots from cleaning them incorrectly), the output may pulse. Any of these can cause "noise" and "confuse" the ECU. (e.g. it may see AC peaks above a reference voltage as DC trigger pulses, or other "misinformation"....).

With the voltages you are reporting, I don't see bad connections for the alternator causing the problem. You might try to eliminate/prove the idea by connecting a GOOD set of jumper cables directly from the battery to the alternator output (+) and case (-).

I am with Spitty- the problem is only there when the alternator is plugged in.
You might try something similar to the above to eliminate the alternator: Start the D and connect it to another running vehicle as if you were going to jump one of them off. Here your voltage should certainly be up and clue you in as to low voltage causing the problem...
If not, unplug the D's alternator. If the other alternator doesn't cause it to reset, I'd be considering a trip to Autozone for the previously mentioned, returnable, alternator ;-)

Bitsyncmaster
11-10-2011, 04:43 AM
I have to agree that the alternator has a bad diode (my guess). Make sure it puts out it's rated current durring the test at autozone.

My alternator has an unused mounting bolt on the back of it (8 mm). I was thinking of installing a ground jumper to the engine block on that bolt but I think as long as the mounts are clean and tight your fine without a jumper. I'm using that mounting bolt to tie up the wiring under there.

opethmike
11-10-2011, 11:06 AM
The ECU expects (and requires) fairly clean DC power/inputs. As Dave said, the alternator produces AC and converts it into DC with diodes. If one of the 6 main diodes fail the output will be low. But more important in this case is that if one fails due to it being shorted (v/s open), it will introduce AC into the system. There are also 3 other small diodes ("diode trio" on a Delco which you have IIRC) feeding the field. If one of these fail, the output will be also be low and/or introduce a "signal". If the slip rings are burnt, dirty or out of round (usually flat spots from cleaning them incorrectly), the output may pulse. Any of these can cause "noise" and "confuse" the ECU. (e.g. it may see AC peaks above a reference voltage as DC trigger pulses, or other "misinformation"....).

With the voltages you are reporting, I don't see bad connections for the alternator causing the problem. You might try to eliminate/prove the idea by connecting a GOOD set of jumper cables directly from the battery to the alternator output (+) and case (-).

I am with Spitty- the problem is only there when the alternator is plugged in.
You might try something similar to the above to eliminate the alternator: Start the D and connect it to another running vehicle as if you were going to jump one of them off. Here your voltage should certainly be up and clue you in as to low voltage causing the problem...
If not, unplug the D's alternator. If the other alternator doesn't cause it to reset, I'd be considering a trip to Autozone for the previously mentioned, returnable, alternator ;-)

Exactly the information I was hoping to learn; thanks Ron. It makes a lot more sense to me now how the alternator could be causing the issue.

When I think about it, I agree with you and Dave(S, and M)(wait a minute, did I mean to write S&M?) that voltage is probably not the problem. The car runs fine without the alternator, so that's much lower voltage, so it wouldn't make sense that its a voltage issue.

I'll try the tests you recommended. I'll see if I can find the cross reference part # on the list here.


I have to agree that the alternator has a bad diode (my guess). Make sure it puts out it's rated current durring the test at autozone.

My alternator has an unused mounting bolt on the back of it (8 mm). I was thinking of installing a ground jumper to the engine block on that bolt but I think as long as the mounts are clean and tight your fine without a jumper. I'm using that mounting bolt to tie up the wiring under there.

DMCMW Dave
11-10-2011, 03:45 PM
If you can find true electronics geek with an oscilloscope (are there any left??) you could prove the diode problem.

Delorean Industries
11-10-2011, 05:14 PM
If you can find true electronics geek with an oscilloscope (are there any left??) you could prove the diode problem.

got one here. Not sure what good it would do this far away though!

opethmike
11-11-2011, 04:19 PM
Yep, just determined that I definitely need a new alternator. I used the following test cases per Ron's suggestions:

Hooked up jumper cables from my Saturn to my DeLorean. Started Saturn. Started DeLorean. DeLorean's ECU reset like crazy.

Shut everything off. Unplugged the DeLorean's alternator (by unplugging the quick release electrical connector, not unbolting the big wires). Started Saturn. Started DeLorean. Running off of the Saturn's alternator, DeLorean's ECU experienced NO resets.

I'll hopefully get a chance to pick up and install a new alternator this weekend.

With the car hooked up to the Saturn, I let it run up to temperature. While warming up, the car did not hunt at all, held desirable idle RPMs. The only thing I didn't like was that while warming up, the wideband O2 gauge was showing the car running a bit lean (~17). Once fully warmed up, the car running at a much nicer AFR.

So it looks like over the next few weeks I'll have to play around with the warm-up enrichment table to get the warm up cycle nicer.

I have attached my log and tune from today. The log was started once the car had fully warmed up. While things seem to look good to me, I would like to get another set of eyes to review the tune and the log and let me know if they seem sane.

Spittybug
11-11-2011, 05:27 PM
Mike, got a dumb question for you. If your TPS is disconnected, how or why is your TPSDot occasionally spiking up and down? I don't know personally....

At the 2073 time mark near the end, did you shut off and then immediately restart? If not, I don't understand what's going on there.

It looks like you still have a little bit of MAP reading going up and down, bringing AFR with it and changing your pulse widths. Pretty minor though, if it's running nice I wouldn't worry about it.

Looking good! If nothing else, a project like this give you a GREAT education on the operation of the car and helps bring to light other issues that you may not even have been aware of (until they start a domino effect!).

opethmike
11-11-2011, 05:40 PM
My TPS is not disconnected. I'm not sure why it would be moving around at all.

At the end I changed something (I want say in the VE) and burned it. So that's why that happened.

You are spot on the money with your last point - I found out that I have a bad alternator!

While this has been at times very trying, I am very happy I have made the conversion. I have learned a ton of diagnostic skills, "make it fit" skills, learned a lot about how EFI works, and gained a lot of confidence as a DIY mechanic.


Mike, got a dumb question for you. If your TPS is disconnected, how or why is your TPSDot occasionally spiking up and down? I don't know personally....

At the 2073 time mark near the end, did you shut off and then immediately restart? If not, I don't understand what's going on there.

It looks like you still have a little bit of MAP reading going up and down, bringing AFR with it and changing your pulse widths. Pretty minor though, if it's running nice I wouldn't worry about it.

Looking good! If nothing else, a project like this give you a GREAT education on the operation of the car and helps bring to light other issues that you may not even have been aware of (until they start a domino effect!).

Spittybug
11-11-2011, 05:44 PM
Well good! That's what it's all about.

I just noticed you are in Rochester. I used to call on Kodak back in the mid '80s. Next time you are further East, in the land of Albany/Troy, give a wave to my alma mater, RPI.

opethmike
11-11-2011, 05:46 PM
I try to avoid Albany, but will do if I am ever in that region!

So if you have spent time in the Rochester area, I trust you are familiar with garbage plates? :-)

Spittybug
11-11-2011, 06:02 PM
Afraid not.... my fondest recollection was trudging through a foot and a half of snow with more coming down, to get to the middle of the Kodak plant and some little obscure purchasing office.... Me with my nice leather shoes and what not... I cursed that lake effect snow. Much preferred the Toronto side of the lake! Many a good time was had when I would visit clients there and partake in the "Canadian ballet".
:nana1:

opethmike
11-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Afraid not.... my fondest recollection was trudging through a foot and a half of snow with more coming down, to get to the middle of the Kodak plant and some little obscure purchasing office.... Me with my nice leather shoes and what not... I cursed that lake effect snow. Much preferred the Toronto side of the lake! Many a good time was had when I would visit clients there and partake in the "Canadian ballet".
:nana1:

The Sundowner, by any chance?

Spittybug
11-11-2011, 06:27 PM
Landing Strip http://foryoureyesonly-club.com/landingstrip/ and Chez Paree if I remember correctly.... And for restaurants, I LOVED Fred's not here in the theater district http://www.fredsnothere.com/ The ostrich was fantastic as was the venison and the Cuban prawns.... ah, I miss the old days as a salesman sometimes.....

dmc6960
11-11-2011, 11:22 PM
I remember during incremental testing during assembly of my MS1 unit, the documentation said the disconnected TPS reading would creep.

I wouldn't worry about it.

opethmike
11-15-2011, 06:11 PM
This is now officially maddening. I picked up and installed a new alternator today, but the resets at idle continue to plague me. I have attached several diagnostics logs, as well as my current MSQ to hopefully get some more help figuring this out.

Bitsyncmaster
11-15-2011, 06:45 PM
What is the current draw of the ECU? I suggest you install a diode to supply power to the ECU. Just put the cathode (bar, arrow, or pointed end) on the ECU power in pin and the anode on the 12 volt supply wire.

opethmike
11-15-2011, 07:08 PM
You'll have to forgive me as I am not very knowledgeable with electrical engineering - what would be the correct way to measure the current draw? I am running the 12v feed directly to the battery.

Also, is there a specific sort of diode I should install?

Bitsyncmaster
11-15-2011, 07:21 PM
Break the power connection and put an amp-meter in line. The + meter goes to the +12 and the - meter goes to the load (ECU). Then when you know the current you can choose a diode. Probably Radio shack will have one.

opethmike
11-15-2011, 07:34 PM
Thanks Dave. I appreciate your patience with this electrical concepts newbie.

Spittybug
11-15-2011, 08:18 PM
:what_the::rant::nutkick:

I hear your pain.... Let's reexamine;

Works fine with just battery, no alternator
Old alternator makes ECU reset
New alternator makes ECU reset
Works fine with other car's alternator connected via jumpers


Is that correct? If so, then assuming new alternator is OK (never assume by the way), then is there a problem either grounding said alternator (mounting brackets all clean and block itself well grounded) or is the + side of the alternator FU'd? Check the ring connectors on ALL of the + wires and the grounds.

Either that or the carb guys have hexed you so bad that you are royally F$(^% and will never get it fixed. :dead: Sorry, figured you might need a little comedic relief at this point. YOU WILL PREVAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

opethmike
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
Yeah, that's correct. When I installed my new alternator today, I cleaned the ever living heck (sandpaper-ed until shiny, then wiped off) out of every connection involved:

The bracket that attaches to the block
The points on the block where the bracket attaches
The pivot arm that the alternator swings in
The ring terminals that attach to the alternator

I swear, I'm running into every single cryptic show stopping problem possible with this installation.


:what_the::rant::nutkick:

I hear your pain.... Let's reexamine;

Works fine with just battery, no alternator
Old alternator makes ECU reset
New alternator makes ECU reset
Works fine with other car's alternator connected via jumpers


Is that correct? If so, then assuming new alternator is OK (never assume by the way), then is there a problem either grounding said alternator (mounting brackets all clean and block itself well grounded) or is the + side of the alternator FU'd? Check the ring connectors on ALL of the + wires and the grounds.

Either that or the carb guys have hexed you so bad that you are royally F$(^% and will never get it fixed. :dead: Sorry, figured you might need a little comedic relief at this point. YOU WILL PREVAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ron
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
Break the power connection and put an amp-meter in line. The + meter goes to the +12 and the - meter goes to the load (ECU). Then when you know the current you can choose a diode. Probably Radio shack will have one.

MicroSquirt® controllers V1 and V2:
"Do not worry about the MicroSquirt® sucking down the vehicle battery, its current draw is around 40 milliamps, so it is a very small load - the dome light above your head draws many times more current." (Wiring Procedure, 4 (http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm))

DMCMW Dave
11-15-2011, 08:58 PM
Keep in mind that when you run it tied to another car, you have a second battery (essentially a huge filter capacitor) in the circuit as well.

opethmike
11-15-2011, 09:14 PM
MicroSquirt® controllers V1 and V2:
"Do not worry about the MicroSquirt® sucking down the vehicle battery, its current draw is around 40 milliamps, so it is a very small load - the dome light above your head draws many times more current." (Wiring Procedure, 4 (http://www.microsquirt.info/uswiring.htm))

Not to be picky, but I am running Megasquirt, not micro. That said, I don't know if there would be a draw difference. I can't imagine that it would be much.


Keep in mind that when you run it tied to another car, you have a second battery (essentially a huge filter capacitor) in the circuit as well.

Ah hah, interesting! That makes sense when I think about it. Now, you mention a filter capacitor, and Dave M. has mentioned a diode.

Which would be more "appropriate" to install to eliminate the noise? And where would be the correct place to install the diode/capacitor - between the battery and the relay board, or between the relay board and the ECU?

Ron
11-15-2011, 09:25 PM
Not to be picky, but I am running Megasquirt, not micro. That said, I don't know if there would be a draw difference. I can't imagine that it would be much. Oops missed that! Sorry, trying to save you the measureing...If nothing in the docs, drag out the meter...


Ah hah, interesting! That makes sense when I think about it. Now, you mention a filter capacitor, and Dave M. has mentioned a diode.

Which would be more "appropriate" to install to eliminate the noise? And where would be the correct place to install the diode/capacitor - between the battery and the relay board, or between the relay board and the ECU?First try the same test and just carefully disconect one post of one of the batteries while leaving all else the same, while running -- don't disconnect the jumper cables until you shut both off. (Ignore reset(s) during removal)

You want to put any filter immediatly before the device that needs it ---the ECU.

Ron
11-15-2011, 11:12 PM
Just in case you haven't seen the below:
(Note it calls for an isolation module I mention earlier for alternator noise...I thought you tried one or the diode-capacitor Bitsy suggested. Lots of noise solutions in the link (http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mwire.htm)).
"...
Noise in the charging system (from the alternator and/or regulator) can cause processor resets or component damage in MegaSquirt. Try to connect the +12 volt switched lead ( pin 28 ) as close to the battery as possible. The battery acts to smooth out the noise from the alternator. If you experience resets in your installation (i.e. the seconds don't count up to 255 and roll-over, they start over before getting to 255), go to your local Radio Shack or automotive stereo shop and purchase an "isolation module". These are EMI/RFI filters used on radios to filter out alternator noise. The current MegaSquirt draws from the 12 Volt source isn't a lot, but you should get the biggest isolator you can find.
Try to ground the MegaSquirt® EFI controller as close as possible to the battery ground, sensor grounds, and other grounds on the engine. Often grounding the MegaSquirt® EFI controller to the engine block (or intake manifold), with additional heavy gauge ground wires from the block to the frame and to the battery, is sufficient. If necessary, run additional wires to any other part of the vehicle that may be marginally grounded.


The MegaSquirt® EFI controller only draws a few hundred milliAmps (from its 12V supply). However it sinks much much more than this by grounding the injectors, coil (if used), Fast idle valve, etc. So the total amount sunk can easily be several Amps to a dozen or more, and ALL of that has to pass through the ground pins. So you will want a multiple ground wires at the DB37 (one pin is rated at a max of 5 Amps). Even if the MegaSquirt® EFI controller works, too small/few ground wires might create a bias in the ground level (where the voltage at the MegaSquirt® EFI controller's 'ground' is higher than at the battery), which can create all sort of mysterious problems. So grounds are very, very important, and should be made as good as you can make them. These means:

use the recommended number and size of wires,
ensure that any connectors are well crimped/soldered, and
attach all the grounds to a single, clean (no paint, oil/grease, etc) point on the engine.
..."

opethmike
11-15-2011, 11:46 PM
I installed this guy:

http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-NS12-InLine-Noise-Suppressor/dp/B0007V5X4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321418633&sr=8-1

But frankly, I doubt its effectiveness. I've had several knowledgeable people advise me to install a current diode inline between B+ and the ECU, so I figure I may as well give it a shot.

Bitsyncmaster
11-16-2011, 05:00 AM
Most electronics have the input diode already inside. What the diode does is prevent other heavy loads (fans, lights, etc) from dropping the voltage the ECU sees. Assuming the ECU has enough capacitance to hold the voltage durring those +12 volt voltage drops. So if the diode alone does not fix it, add a large (1000 uf or more) capacitor after the diode.

I had to do just that on my LM-2 wideband unit if I run it from the cigaret lighter.

Sounds like a one amp (or more) diode should be fine. Pretty sure you can get those at Radio Shack.

opethmike
11-16-2011, 09:40 PM
Good news! I was able to resolve the resets. I was (rookie mistake) running the ground for my MTX-L to a different spot than the rest of Megasquirt's grounds. Once I relocated it to the same ground point, all was good.

However, after trying numerous things to fix this, my 12v switched and 12v live supply wires are pretty hacked up with multiple solder joints, so I'm going to re-run new wires and then it will finally be time for road tuning.

Question for Owen/Jim/Adam -

When I put on the A/C or the fans come on, the idle of course drops. There's something I can do through Tuner Studio to have the IAC compensate, right? How would I do that?

Spittybug
11-17-2011, 09:49 AM
Good news! I was able to resolve the resets. I was (rookie mistake) running the ground for my MTX-L to a different spot than the rest of Megasquirt's grounds. Once I relocated it to the same ground point, all was good.

However, after trying numerous things to fix this, my 12v switched and 12v live supply wires are pretty hacked up with multiple solder joints, so I'm going to re-run new wires and then it will finally be time for road tuning.

Question for Owen/Jim/Adam -

When I put on the A/C or the fans come on, the idle of course drops. There's something I can do through Tuner Studio to have the IAC compensate, right? How would I do that?

MTX-L? Is that your O2 sensor? I thought we had "ruled out" grounds being in different areas??? Hummm... chalk another one up to d'oh!!!

As far as the idle drop is concerned; for the time being I simply compensate with my VE table that you have. Not optimal, but works fine. Being in Houston my A/C is on most of the time, so I have my butterflies and IAC set to give me a nice idle with A/C on. When it kicks off my RPMs go up, but it's not a big deal.

Now, what I WANT to do but have just not knuckled down to yet is to play with closed loop IAC control. This will have the effect of leaving the IAC closed under light idle load, then allowing it to quickly open up for heavier load (A/C kicks on). MS2e will allow this to be set up. I've been doing the reading/digesting that comes along with something like this. It highly recommends getting everything else as good as you can before attempting this, including the IAC setup for simple start up. Good advice. It then requires understanding where the idle needs to be, where it ends up going to, setting boundary conditions (such as preventing gear shifts from being interpreted as load changes that prompt the algorithm to kick in), etc. Then implement, then test.... To be honest, I was waiting for you and AdmiralSenn to get to the point where we were all going to be doing this work at the same time so that we could compare notes. Jim is still running the stock idle air controller I believe, so unless he changes his setup he won't be needing to do this. Maybe I'll get motivated to give this a try this week.

Great news on getting your problem resolved. 9 out of 10 times it is the stupidest little things that we gloss over that cause 90% of the problems. Measure twice, cut once....... words to live by!

AdmiralSenn
11-17-2011, 10:09 AM
What Owen said - I don't even have an idle controller hooked up. Development on Christine is on hold until my rear fascia comes back. And I can't play with the idle fine control stuff until I do a bunch of regular tuning.

As far as the idle control, I don't know if there's a way to set that unless you're running closed loop (it's a little weird in TS, you have to go Startup/Idle -> Idle control and select your closed loop option (PWM, IAC closed loop always on, IAC closed loop moving only) then that opens up the closed loop options under the Startup/Idle menu). As Owen said there is a good bit of fiddling involved to make that work right.

I'm planning to run closed loop idle solely so that I can have the valve compensate for load in situations like this. But on a regular IAC I don't know if that's possible.

opethmike
11-17-2011, 10:23 AM
Yes, the MTX-L is my O2 sensor. Its another Innovate sensor, supposedly a step up from the LC-1.

I'm actually getting pretty close to being at the stage where I can work on that with you and Adam (AdmiralSenn). I am going to run replacement wires for the MS power tonight or tomorrow, then I am going to get a boat load of road tuning done this weekend. I've actually already gotten a significant amount of cold-start/warm-up tuning done already.


MTX-L? Is that your O2 sensor? I thought we had "ruled out" grounds being in different areas??? Hummm... chalk another one up to d'oh!!!

As far as the idle drop is concerned; for the time being I simply compensate with my VE table that you have. Not optimal, but works fine. Being in Houston my A/C is on most of the time, so I have my butterflies and IAC set to give me a nice idle with A/C on. When it kicks off my RPMs go up, but it's not a big deal.

Now, what I WANT to do but have just not knuckled down to yet is to play with closed loop IAC control. This will have the effect of leaving the IAC closed under light idle load, then allowing it to quickly open up for heavier load (A/C kicks on). MS2e will allow this to be set up. I've been doing the reading/digesting that comes along with something like this. It highly recommends getting everything else as good as you can before attempting this, including the IAC setup for simple start up. Good advice. It then requires understanding where the idle needs to be, where it ends up going to, setting boundary conditions (such as preventing gear shifts from being interpreted as load changes that prompt the algorithm to kick in), etc. Then implement, then test.... To be honest, I was waiting for you and AdmiralSenn to get to the point where we were all going to be doing this work at the same time so that we could compare notes. Jim is still running the stock idle air controller I believe, so unless he changes his setup he won't be needing to do this. Maybe I'll get motivated to give this a try this week.

Great news on getting your problem resolved. 9 out of 10 times it is the stupidest little things that we gloss over that cause 90% of the problems. Measure twice, cut once....... words to live by!

My IAC will work for this, so I am looking forward to playing with it. Into the great unknown, I say! :-)


What Owen said - I don't even have an idle controller hooked up. Development on Christine is on hold until my rear fascia comes back. And I can't play with the idle fine control stuff until I do a bunch of regular tuning.

As far as the idle control, I don't know if there's a way to set that unless you're running closed loop (it's a little weird in TS, you have to go Startup/Idle -> Idle control and select your closed loop option (PWM, IAC closed loop always on, IAC closed loop moving only) then that opens up the closed loop options under the Startup/Idle menu). As Owen said there is a good bit of fiddling involved to make that work right.

I'm planning to run closed loop idle solely so that I can have the valve compensate for load in situations like this. But on a regular IAC I don't know if that's possible.

Ron
11-17-2011, 10:24 AM
Good news! I was able to resolve the resets. I was (rookie mistake) running the ground for my MTX-L to a different spot than the rest of Megasquirt's grounds. Once I relocated it to the same ground point, all was good.Figures it was the absolute last thing I mentioned...LOL-J/K !!!

opethmike
11-17-2011, 10:55 AM
*hugs Ron*

Spittybug
11-17-2011, 11:05 AM
HEY! I want a hug for post #111. Actually, keep the hug, just send cold hard cash. 8)

opethmike
11-17-2011, 12:37 PM
I don't have much cash, so you get a hug too!

dmc6960
11-17-2011, 04:24 PM
Question for Owen/Jim/Adam -

When I put on the A/C or the fans come on, the idle of course drops. There's something I can do through Tuner Studio to have the IAC compensate, right? How would I do that?

Unfortunately with your stepper-style IAC now I cannot help you. The stock idle system would have just seen a drop in RPM and instantly compensated. Thats why I kept it!

opethmike
11-17-2011, 04:28 PM
Oh yeah, that's right. I still don't understand why, but if I used my stock ISM, the car hunted like a madman. Annoying.

I'll get the idle adjustment figured out. Just more stuff to learn! :-)

opethmike
11-19-2011, 09:39 PM
Did a pretty good amount of road tuning. Just around the neighborhood, but I would say about 30 minutes of driving or so.

I am loving VE Analyze Live's auto-tune feature. Two things I noted:

Car seemed to 'behave' more the longer I drove it. I had to increase my cruising speed target AFR, it was running lean there.

Secondly, the car needs me to take off from a stop extra gingerly or it bucks. Not sure if that is because I don't have a fuel setting right, or because I currently have Acceleration Enrichment turned off

Guys, what are your thoughts on that last point?

Tomorrow, after tightening up my alternator belt, I will be driving on the main roads, and heading out on the high-way as well. Hopefully another weekend or two of driving after that and I will have a pretty solid VE table, and can then begin messing with AE.

Spittybug
11-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Mike, if you don't have the idle area and slightly above it locked out from VE analyze, I found that they get adjusted too far downward. When you get a good idle, lock those cells. Drive. Then use the interpolate function to smooth the cells between the idle and where the VE is doing a good job. Remember, you blow through the low RPM, high vacuum cells quickly when you start up; you immediately go close to atmospheric and then RPM picks up. As a result, VE analyze has precious few points in that area to make an accurate correction from. Take a look at your logs and see what the AFR looks like when you first come off idle. I'll bet you go really lean for a second. Yes, acceleration enhancement can be used to fix this, but you really only want AE kicking in when you "punch it". Otherwise you can get some unpredictable head whipping (ask me how I know..) when you are just doing a simple acceleration.

You are still stock for timing, right? Are you sure the vacuum solenoid is engaging/disengaging properly as you give it some gas? The bucking could also be that the timing is too quickly being advanced or not being advanced at all based on load and is only catching up with RPMs. I'd double check that.

Sounds like you are in much better shape though. I look forward to more guys taking the plunge so that we can communally come up with good AE curves and closed loop idle settings.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Good morning Owen,

I do in fact have the idle area locked in VE Analyze. I have that whole pair of columns locked, which is probably too much.

I'll spend some time going back and forth in the driveway today to resolve that take off in 1st issue. I bet you're right; I probably am going way lean.

Timing is stock. I have the extra output configured to allow advance once I am a few % (2 or 3, if I recall correctly) into throttle travel. I believe that is a close match to the idle speed microswitch in a K-Jet set-up.

I'll let you guys know how it goes today, and I'll try to remember to take some logs today.

Thanks for the continued support. The setup just keeps getting better every time I work on it.

-Mike "I'm glad I made the plunge to EFI" Lund


Mike, if you don't have the idle area and slightly above it locked out from VE analyze, I found that they get adjusted too far downward. When you get a good idle, lock those cells. Drive. Then use the interpolate function to smooth the cells between the idle and where the VE is doing a good job. Remember, you blow through the low RPM, high vacuum cells quickly when you start up; you immediately go close to atmospheric and then RPM picks up. As a result, VE analyze has precious few points in that area to make an accurate correction from. Take a look at your logs and see what the AFR looks like when you first come off idle. I'll bet you go really lean for a second. Yes, acceleration enhancement can be used to fix this, but you really only want AE kicking in when you "punch it". Otherwise you can get some unpredictable head whipping (ask me how I know..) when you are just doing a simple acceleration.

You are still stock for timing, right? Are you sure the vacuum solenoid is engaging/disengaging properly as you give it some gas? The bucking could also be that the timing is too quickly being advanced or not being advanced at all based on load and is only catching up with RPMs. I'd double check that.

Sounds like you are in much better shape though. I look forward to more guys taking the plunge so that we can communally come up with good AE curves and closed loop idle settings.

Spittybug
11-20-2011, 11:42 AM
I have that whole pair of columns locked, which is probably too much.

YUP. Just the immediate idle area. You aren't letting VE do its job otherwise. And you do have your AFR authority set to zero while doing this right? Otherwise your closed loop AFR will fight the VE tuner.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 12:02 PM
Yep, I have the EGO control disabled currently.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 05:59 PM
Hours of driving today, going through every possible driving condition I could think of. After about 30 minutes of driving, the car was behaving VERY well - no more need to be extra slow taking off in 1st.

By the second half of the time driving today, VE Analyze pretty much stopped adjusting any cells at all. Car cruises nicely at a good AFR (~14.5), accelerates like a beast without hesitation of any kind. Idles pleasantly. No backfires, sluggishness, or any shenanigans of that sort.

So the driveability tuning of the car is pretty much done, except for maybe some small, small tweaks.

I definitely need to play around with idle settings or adjusting my throttle stop screw. I currently have the car idling at ~750 RPM, so when the fans kick on (or I turn on the AC), the RPMs drop down to ~550, and the car gets close to stalling. That will be easy to take care of though.

For the last hour I was driving, I forgot to take a log because of the excitement of pretty much being "done" with this part of the project. At that time I did turn on Accel Enrichment, and didn't experience any bucking or sluggishness during hard acceleration.

Its no data log, but I have attached my current MSQ, if you guys wouldn't mind reviewing it. I think the VE table looks pretty damn solid.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 06:00 PM
Driving conditions tackled:

Around the neighborhood
Cruising on main roads
Highway on ramps, cruising, and off-ramps
BIIIGGG hills
Small hills

Cruising, light, medium, and hard acceleration were mixed into each several times.

Spittybug
11-20-2011, 07:00 PM
VE table looks reasonable to me.....more than mine! I have no idea why, but mine has a pretty mountainous peak at high MAP levels, low RPMs. Your's is more like what I would expect to see. Granted, I have a uniform AFR across the spectrum which I really should work on, but it's odd how they differ. It could be a function of the timing table I have in play.

One thing to keep your eye on is high RPM low engine load (deceleration) and make sure that you don't go too low on the VE values or you can stall it out. I see too that you gave EGO 15% authority in this .msq. That was done after tuning I presume?

Keep going grasshopper! We'll be getting our tuning cues from you any time now.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 08:58 PM
Hi Owen!

Well, I suppose you could try my AFR table :)

Yep, I did turn on EGO control once tuning was completed. Same with Acceleration Enrichment. Though, I'm not sure if I turned on AE correctly; I experienced no difference that I could notice with it on. Thoughts?

I'll keep an eye on that area of the VE - that's a good point you bring up.

I definitely need to put in some work with the hot idle; when I pulled into the garage after driving, I let the car sit for a while, and once the fans came on, RPMs dropped down too far and it came very close to stalling.

Sounds like a good reason to experiment with load based idle control!

-Mike


VE table looks reasonable to me.....more than mine! I have no idea why, but mine has a pretty mountainous peak at high MAP levels, low RPMs. Your's is more like what I would expect to see. Granted, I have a uniform AFR across the spectrum which I really should work on, but it's odd how they differ. It could be a function of the timing table I have in play.

One thing to keep your eye on is high RPM low engine load (deceleration) and make sure that you don't go too low on the VE values or you can stall it out. I see too that you gave EGO 15% authority in this .msq. That was done after tuning I presume?

Keep going grasshopper! We'll be getting our tuning cues from you any time now.

opethmike
11-20-2011, 11:45 PM
With my current setup, Megasquirt controls fuel and the idle air control valve.

As such, can I get rid of both the Lambda and idle ECUs without issue?


Just remembered that the Idle ECU still controls the vacuum advance solenoid. That's going to have to stay.

Bitsyncmaster
11-21-2011, 05:28 AM
With my current setup, Megasquirt controls fuel and the idle air control valve.

As such, can I get rid of both the Lambda and idle ECUs without issue?


Just remembered that the Idle ECU still controls the vacuum advance solenoid. That's going to have to stay.

The stock idle ECU does not control the advance solenoid, the idle microswitch does.

dmc6960
11-21-2011, 09:03 AM
The stock idle ECU does not control the advance solenoid, the idle microswitch does.

Which you are controlling with the Megasquirt ECU. I'd almost be tempted to try putting the stock idle motor back in now that your car is well tuned and just see what happens before you fully condemn it.

opethmike
11-22-2011, 10:14 PM
So, from this weekend, I learned that I needed to increase my idle (it was ~800), or the idle would drop too low when the fans came on (~600).

So I increased the throttle stop screw so that I would idle at 1,000. Idle would drop to ~850 when the fans would come on. So, that's nice.

However, I've found that the best I can get my idle KPa to is ~45, instead of the ~37 I could achieve when I had the idle set at 800. I suppose that's a trade-off I will just have to accept.

I think I will give the stock idle motor a shot again, just as a science experiment. I would love to get back to having an idle KPa of ~37 again.

Spittybug
11-23-2011, 10:46 AM
I don't see how changing the idle device would change the physics of the situation Mike. The kpa of the engine vacuum is a function of how much "pull" of the pistons versus the volume of air being allowed in by the combination of the butterflies opening and the idle valve opening.

Engine speed and engine vacuum are inversely related (with a minor lag) and unless there is a change to the velocity of the incoming air by using boost or eliminating some constriction, then the changing of idle controllers should have no effect.

dmc6960
11-23-2011, 10:47 AM
I think the idea is to try having the OEM idle ECU/Motor back in play to put the idle back at 800 with active management to keep it there under higher loads like fans and AC.

opethmike
11-23-2011, 11:29 AM
I think the idea is to try having the OEM idle ECU/Motor back in play to put the idle back at 800 with active management to keep it there under higher loads like fans and AC.

That's correct. I'd really like to get back to having my idle of ~37 KPa so I don't have to tune the car again.

opethmike
11-23-2011, 09:44 PM
I've readjusted my throttle back down, installed the old idle speed motor (it plays nice now?), and found a much more significant issue.

I had noticed since after my first long drive that the engine would occasionally cough while sitting at idle, which I chalked up to something needing an adjustment. However, and this is where it gets stunning - my passenger side bank of injectors weren't firing at all!

But I didn't suspect anything like that, as the engine wasn't running noticeably poorly other than the infrequent cough. But I said 'F it' and decided to see if the car was misfiring by plugging injector pigtails. As soon as I had pulled all three on the passenger side and no change had occurred, I knew something was wrong.

So I took off the back wall of the parcel shelf, and found that I hadn't tightened down the screw in the relay board terminal strip for that injector bank as much as I thought. I had knocked it loose when I re-installed the back board after my very successful outing. Seems like every issue that I have encountered with this project has had a "stupid" root cause.

I noticed that at idle I do get an infrequent MS reset. This is not like when I had a separate ground for the O2 and it would reset non-stop. This is an infrequent hiccup. I'm going to try to track that down tomorrow.

AdmiralSenn
11-23-2011, 10:57 PM
Wait, so you were effectively running on three cylinders?

And it didn't sound like a dying, asthmatic lawnmower?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEtRoZ5FWNc

opethmike
11-24-2011, 09:52 AM
No, not at all. It actually sounded pretty close to normal. Very, very strange.

Spittybug
11-24-2011, 07:39 PM
Seems like every issue that I have encountered with this project has had a "stupid" root cause.

So glad it's not just me....

opethmike
11-24-2011, 11:06 PM
Hah, if anything, this project is teaching me a lot of patience. But, I am also learning a shit load of a diagnostic mind set, as well as how engine management works. And the car usually progresses when I work on it.

Correcting my grounds has resulted in the idle being nearly problem free, and the car being drivable. I say nearly problem free because I get the occasional blip in the ECU. I thought that this was a reset, but running a data log and examining it shows that it is in fact a sync loss.

I am going to go back out to the car soon to experiment around a little bit with noise filtering. I have attached my current MSQ, and a data log of the sync loss occurring.

opethmike
11-25-2011, 12:33 AM
Random thought/question:

I am running a shielded wire from the relay board directly to the negative post on the coil, and connecting to it with a crimped & soldered ring terminal.

Is perhaps that not the greatest location to get the tachometer signal? Maybe I should tap into the gray/slate wire inside of the car?

Bitsyncmaster
11-25-2011, 03:30 AM
Random thought/question:

I am running a shielded wire from the relay board directly to the negative post on the coil, and connecting to it with a crimped & soldered ring terminal.

Is perhaps that not the greatest location to get the tachometer signal? Maybe I should tap into the gray/slate wire inside of the car?

I would not recommend shielded wire on the coil negative post. I've looked at that signal on an O-scope and it peaks at 130 volts. A shielded wire may upset that high slew rate peak. The shield itself will also be introducing some current into the connection it's grounded at.

Don't think your location to tap the signal will matter but the best signal would be at the source (ignition ECU).

Spittybug
11-25-2011, 10:00 AM
I figured the shorter the better, so I tapped slate/white right in the cubby behind the driver when I was running from the coil (-). Pretty much what Dave was saying about the ECU. Now that I'm getting the VR signal from the dizzy, I don't worry about that.

I very occasionally get what I would call a hiccup, but I've never been logging when it happens. Hasn't caused me problems and I can count them on the fingers of one hand.....

AdmiralSenn
11-25-2011, 10:02 AM
Don't think your location to tap the signal will matter but the best signal would be at the source (ignition ECU).

This is what I did. No resets or lost sync issues that I've ever seen.

opethmike
11-25-2011, 04:45 PM
Cleaned a few more grounds, and things seem to be better. Yesterday, it would sync loss/reset every time the A/C compressor would cycle. Now it doesn't do that anymore at all.

Now, just sitting idling, it doesn't sync loss/reset (at least not during the twenty minutes I had it sitting there idling today).

I can, however, still force a reset/sync loss. I've found that if a quick electrical surge (don't know if that is an okay term) happens, that the reset/sync loss will sometimes happen. For example, if I lock/unlock the doors, or rapidly blink the brights. This seems to have gotten better since I did more ground cleaning today.

I'm going to make a post in the main forum to confirm the complete list of grounds.

Bitsyncmaster
11-25-2011, 06:08 PM
I still think the diode and capacitor to power the ECU will fix it. Not much you can do about the noise when the high loads switch on and off.

opethmike
11-25-2011, 07:56 PM
I in fact have a diode installed on both the live and switched 12v lines into the ECU. When I added a capacitor into the mix, the ECU stopped receiving power, so maybe I did something wrong?

Spittybug
11-25-2011, 08:05 PM
I was getting odd power surges when my AC compressor was coming on. Bitsyncmaster had me put a diode and capacitor in parallel from the clutch power line to ground http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1097-Battery-light-pulse&p=22862&viewfull=1#post22862. While doing that I discovered that the problem may have been the pigtail to the compressor clutch intermittently grounding to the compressor body because of a poorly insulated bullet connector. One of those "dumb" issues we find every now and then and fix. No issues since.

opethmike
11-25-2011, 08:27 PM
Interestingly enough, after I did some ground cleaning today, the ECU blips that would happen when the A/C cycled stopped.

I only seem to get them now when I very quickly flash the brights, lock the doors, etc. Adding diodes to both the 12v life and switched lines has dramatically reduced the blips as well. So I'm optimistic that I am getting close to completely eliminating them.

When I try adding a capacitor, does it matter if it closer to or further away from the ECU than the diode?

I have a few of the following capacitors that I picked up from Radio Shack:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102508&numProdsPerPage=60

Mine are 1000uF, but otherwise the same.

opethmike
11-25-2011, 08:32 PM
My diodes are three amp, and I have them installed into the feed lines with the painted ring end facing the ECU.

Bitsyncmaster
11-26-2011, 04:48 AM
The capacitor works like a small battery. So it goes to the ECU pin on the + end and the - end goes to the ECU ground. So your diodes would feed those ECU pins (and the capacitors).

A 1000 uf, 16 volt or larger should work. My LM-2 wideband needed that capacitor and diode to work off the cigarette lighter plug.

opethmike
11-26-2011, 11:38 AM
The capacitor works like a small battery. So it goes to the ECU pin on the + end and the - end goes to the ECU ground. So your diodes would feed those ECU pins (and the capacitors).

A 1000 uf, 16 volt or larger should work. My LM-2 wideband needed that capacitor and diode to work off the cigarette lighter plug.

Ah! My lack of knowledge of electrics shows through again! :)

When I had the capacitor installed before, it was just in-line. So, to make sure I'm 100% following you, please take a look at the MS Paint drawing of my interpretation of how you are saying I should install it.

Bitsyncmaster
11-26-2011, 01:19 PM
Your drawing is correct.

Just think of it like this.
The capacitor is a battery. The diode is a switch that only lets current (voltage) flow in one direction. So the diode charges up the capacitor, then when the car voltage drops because of a high load turning on, Your ECU runs on the capacitor. The diode prevents that other high load from draining the capacitor.

opethmike
11-26-2011, 01:36 PM
Cool. Thanks for the education Dave, I appreciate it. I'll get that wired up tomorrow. I'm optimistic, as every time I work on this reset/sync loss issue, it improves.

Cleaning the following grounds helped A LOT, but not completely:

Bulkhead ground connector
Ground on frame under coolant bottle
Ground on trailing arm (man, that one SUCKED)

Spittybug
11-26-2011, 01:44 PM
On that trailing arm ground (the negative battery terminal), make sure that the ring connector isn't loose on the end of the cable. A couple of us discovered we could spin the connector around the wires! Needless to say, that isn't good. You can either solder it on for a good connection or replace it.

opethmike
11-26-2011, 01:54 PM
I actually checked that, and it was solid as a rock. AMAZINGLY dirty though. Easily the worst of the grounds that I have cleaned so far.

Once I cleaned that one, the resets that would happen when the A/C compressor would cycle went away completely.

Now I only get them when there are other quick surges - blinking brights, door locks, etc. I'm hoping that adding the capacitors per Dave's suggestion resolves the last of it. I'm so close to finishing the complete drivability portion of this project.

I still want to get rid of the old K-Jet wiring in the engine bay, but that can wait until after I finish regraining my car.

opethmike
11-27-2011, 07:27 PM
Installed the capacitors per Dave's directions today. Still not 100% free of resets, but I would say 98% free. Car can now be driven without any ECU related worries.

Over the next week or so, I am going to put together a write up of how I did my EFI conversion. Hopefully it will be useful to someone else in the future.

living_the_dream
11-27-2011, 10:13 PM
you need to put a video of her starting up and running on here!

opethmike
11-27-2011, 10:24 PM
As soon as I can get a hold of a video camera, I will.

opethmike
11-29-2011, 12:54 AM
Installed the capacitors per Dave's directions today. Still not 100% free of resets, but I would say 98% free. Car can now be driven without any ECU related worries.

Over the next week or so, I am going to put together a write up of how I did my EFI conversion. Hopefully it will be useful to someone else in the future.

To sum up my reset/sync loss adventures:

First, car had non-stop resets at idle, making it undrivable. This was solved by moving the wideband O2 sensor's ground to the battery, where the rest of the MS is grounded.

After that, the car experienced frequent, but almost passable, amounts of resets at idle. If the AC were activated, or the cooling fans came on, the ECU would start resetting enough that the car became undrivable. At this stage, the battery positive and negative circuits were cleaned thoroughly at all points. Now the AC or cooling fans running would not cause resets, but the idle speed would drop a little low. Also, a quick electrical "surge", as generated by turning on the headlights, flicking the brights, locking the doors would cause a reset without fail.

Next step was the installation of a diode + capacitor into both the 12v live and switched lines for the ECU, as advised by Dave McKeen. As a result, the idle speed would no longer drop when the AC or cooling fans came on. Random resets at idle stopped. As an even more positive results, the electrical "surge" actions described above now only caused a reset less than 10-15% of the time.

Data and diagnostics logs were e-mailed to diyautotune tech support. Matt Cramer's examination of the logs showed that the ECU was at this point not experiencing true resets, but sync losses; that is, the RPM signal was no longer reaching the ECU. The symptoms are similar to a reset, but the cause is different. He has advised that I install a 20k resistor inline with the wire that feeds the tach signal to the ECU.

I will be doing this on Wednesday, after work, and reporting back the results.

Spittybug
11-29-2011, 09:05 AM
Great diagnostics work Mike.

For all the EFI potential candidates out there, these trials and tribulations that are now being chronicled can and should be addressed whether you are deciding to go EFI or not. Many of our cars' issues like melted fuse boxes, dimmed headlights, burned out alternators, etc.. are caused by things such as dirty grounds, oxidized connectors and loose ring connectors. When modernizing the car to an electronics based control system, these problems quickly get highlighted and cause grief in the conversion. Ask any of us that have done this; the problem isn't the mechanics of conversion or even the tuning, it is the gremlin factor!

In the "sticky" section of the EFI sub forum we will try and collate all the necessary information for preparing for EFI installation. Carb and K-Jet people would all benefit from these housekeeping tasks as well, so it should be helpful to all Delorean owners!

Mike's going to LOVE the driveability of his car and the fun aspects of being able to change his tune to match his driving style and desires.

Bitsyncmaster
11-29-2011, 09:31 AM
I have perfected the circuit that provides an RPM signal to "TTL" (0 to 5 volts). If you find you need a cleanded up ignition signal I can send you a board to try.

opethmike
11-29-2011, 11:48 AM
Great diagnostics work Mike.

For all the EFI potential candidates out there, these trials and tribulations that are now being chronicled can and should be addressed whether you are deciding to go EFI or not. Many of our cars' issues like melted fuse boxes, dimmed headlights, burned out alternators, etc.. are caused by things such as dirty grounds, oxidized connectors and loose ring connectors. When modernizing the car to an electronics based control system, these problems quickly get highlighted and cause grief in the conversion. Ask any of us that have done this; the problem isn't the mechanics of conversion or even the tuning, it is the gremlin factor!

In the "sticky" section of the EFI sub forum we will try and collate all the necessary information for preparing for EFI installation. Carb and K-Jet people would all benefit from these housekeeping tasks as well, so it should be helpful to all Delorean owners!

Mike's going to LOVE the driveability of his car and the fun aspects of being able to change his tune to match his driving style and desires.

Oh, I already love the driveability; the throttle response is much smoother, and it may be just in my head, but the car feels faster and more torquey as well.

I had been meaning to go through and clean all of my grounds before converting to EFI, but doing the conversion has forced me to, and I'm glad I did.

I will be writing up documentation on how my installation was done over the course of the week. I would love to get your peer review, Owen, before I publish it to the rest of the forum.


I have perfected the circuit that provides an RPM signal to "TTL" (0 to 5 volts). If you find you need a cleanded up ignition signal I can send you a board to try.

That sounds interesting - mind giving me some more details?

Bitsyncmaster
11-29-2011, 01:07 PM
I found the correct ignition monitoring circuit designing my idle ECU. It uses one optical isolator, two resistors, one zener, one diode and one capacitor. If you don't have +5 volts you would need those components. If you don't find a solution to your problem, I can ship you a board with the circuit to play with.

opethmike
12-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Solved the last of my sync loss issues by moving the input for the tach signal to the white/grey wire coming out of the idle ECU.

opethmike
12-01-2011, 09:38 PM
Video of the car running:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGiXMNDvsWw

Spittybug
12-01-2011, 10:07 PM
Sounds great!

opethmike
12-01-2011, 11:32 PM
I should have known it would happen; I am now starting to seriously consider ignition control as well.

Spittybug
12-02-2011, 09:52 AM
Now that you've solved your electrical issues and got it running just fine with the fuel component, the ignition control is a snap. Did you build the VR circuit on your board already? Taking the plunge and disabling the mechanical advance is the only "commitment" you end up making. Although I did mine with a quick tack weld, I'm sure that a strategically placed wire tie would work to hold the mechanism until you were sure you wanted to keep it that way. Just pay attention to the manual and make the correct jumper settings on your board and you are on your way!

opethmike
12-02-2011, 11:02 AM
Now that you've solved your electrical issues and got it running just fine with the fuel component, the ignition control is a snap. Did you build the VR circuit on your board already? Taking the plunge and disabling the mechanical advance is the only "commitment" you end up making. Although I did mine with a quick tack weld, I'm sure that a strategically placed wire tie would work to hold the mechanism until you were sure you wanted to keep it that way. Just pay attention to the manual and make the correct jumper settings on your board and you are on your way!

I didn't build mine; I purchased a pre-built unit. I'll have to read/find documentation on it to see the details of the ignition control it is built with.

opethmike
12-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Wow, thread resurrection!

Just about a year to the day after I completed my EFI conversion, I converted the idle control successfully tonight. With it being 40 degrees out tonight, I was able to tune to the whole coolant temperature range. Nice!

Yesterday, I pulled the ballast resistor and relay out of the equation, after installing a modern ignition coil. These were both big steps towards getting my engine bay cleaned up, looking good, and not looking like a random mishmash of wires, hoses, etc.