New fuel tank/sender module! [Archive] - DMCTalk Forum

DMCH James

10-26-2011, 02:42 PM

This was another product that we debuted at the Open House a couple of weeks ago.

This unit is a modern replacement for what is currently in the fuel tank of your DeLorean. Integrating a pump, baffle, in-tank filter and fuel sender this part is height adjustable to accommodate the variances found in the tank heights. Secured with a V-clamp, the module has a fuel-resistant rubber seal around the lip.

In production now, with initial deliveries in November, this unit comes with the fuel feed and fuel return lines already attached. Retail price $399 - less than a fuel pump update kit and tank sender combined.

The photo below is courtesy of Kevin Abato and GrenexMedia.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/michael_cole/Web%20page%20builds/tankmodule.jpg

James

LEVY

10-26-2011, 02:54 PM

.

Thank's James but I can not see the picture, just the Thumbnail.

This was another product that we debuted at the Open House a couple of weeks ago.

This unit is a modern replacement for what is currently in the fuel tank of your DeLorean. Integrating a pump, baffle, in-tank filter and fuel sender this part is height adjustable to accommodate the variances found in the tank heights. Secured with a V-clamp, the module has a fuel-resistant rubber seal around the lip.

In production now, with initial deliveries in November, this unit comes with the fuel feed and fuel return lines already attached. Retail price $399 - less than a fuel pump update kit and tank sender combined.

The photo below is courtesy of Kevin Abato and GrenexMedia.com

James

DMCH James

10-26-2011, 03:27 PM

Have to ask an admin about that - works for me if I click on it...

James

Grover

10-26-2011, 03:36 PM

James, does the current fuel sender just stay in the tank or will a new cap come with the pump to cover up the fuel sender hole?

stevedmc

10-26-2011, 03:40 PM

DMCH James

10-26-2011, 03:52 PM

James, does the current fuel sender just stay in the tank or will a new cap come with the pump to cover up the fuel sender hole?

Initially we're advocating leaving the old sender in place - the added fuel volume gained by removing it is minimal, and we've not yet located/sourced a suitable, fuel resistant "plug" to fit the existing sender opening.

James

Nicholas R

10-26-2011, 03:57 PM

Do you have any statistics on the pump itself? Volume, pressure, etc. Same as original? Better? Just wondering; I may be looking for a higher volume pump in the future.

Also if you dont mind me asking, is it totally custom to the DeLorean or is it adapted from another vehicle? (not asking for trade secretes, just wondering)

Very cool product! Definitely interested.

DMCMW Dave

10-26-2011, 05:16 PM

My question is, how does its baffle compare to a stock setup? The location of this integrated baffle seems very similar to the location of my tuna fish can baffle. Many people critisize the tuna can baffle saying the stock setup works much better.

That was discussed at length in this thread:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1949-Another-fuel-tank-plumbing-option&highlight=fuel+pump

The sump on this one is much deeper (close to 1/2 the overall depth of the tank!) and has a sealed bottom with an inlet check valve. The tuna can baffles are not very deep and not very "tight". The OEM had this same shortcoming but being centered in the tank somewhat minimzed the problem.

This makes is much less likely to "run out" of fuel on acceration or hills. I was also skeptical at first until analyzing the construction/design of the unit.

DMC5180

10-26-2011, 07:08 PM

Initially we're advocating leaving the old sender in place - the added fuel volume gained by removing it is minimal, and we've not yet located/sourced a suitable, fuel resistant "plug" to fit the existing sender opening.

James

Correct! The OEM or Replacement senders do not displace much fuel at all. (The cylinder fills with fuel ) I'd be surprised if displaces a 1/3-1/2 cup total volume. Most of that would be the float at the very top when Overfilled up the filler neck.

FWIW: A plug does not need to be anything more than a metal (aluminum) or ABS plastic disc cut from sheet stock the same diameter as the rubber seal washer and retained the same way as the Sender.

1. Will the new module come with the appropreit factory style Wire Connectors for Plug-n-Play? Understandibly the module has it's own specific connector. I'm speaking of the opposite end of the supplied harness.

2. Does it retain the Low Fuel light function?

I wonder how much quieter these will be than the OE style.

Farrar

10-27-2011, 12:45 AM

This is fantastic! Well done!

Farrar

AdmiralSenn

10-27-2011, 06:46 AM

1. Will the new module come with the appropreit factory style Wire Connectors for Plug-n-Play? Understandibly the module has it's own specific connector. I'm speaking of the opposite end of the supplied harness.

2. Does it retain the Low Fuel light function?

+1 on these. Also, I'd like to see some information on fuel gauge function. I've held off on buying the other fuel sender because I knew the behavior of the system would drive me crazy whenever I noticed it switch between fuel level switches, and because of the reports of bizarre inaccuracies in the sender.

Even though my pump works just fine I might just suck it up and buy this if the gauge works well. It looks like the float is a much better design, at least.

Mike C.

10-27-2011, 06:53 AM

Have to ask an admin about that - works for me if I click on it...

James

Works for me too... Going to go ahead and imbed the picture into the post. -Mike

On a personal note, I am VERY excited about this product. Even though I am running a brand new pump setup, I have worries and want a modern setup. This makes me happy. Good job DMC team!

Grover

10-27-2011, 10:24 AM

At this past weekends DMA event James talked about the fuel gauge part of the unit. He said there is a 115 second delay (something like that) in the signal being sent to change the gauge. This way if you are accelerating, turning hard, or on a hill, the gauge will not fluctuate until that level is held for almost two min. He also said the low-fuel light works and comes on with 1 or 1.5 gallons left in the tank (I forget exactly).

The pump within the unit is also common and can be replaced as needed too.

sean

10-27-2011, 12:39 PM

Very nice, considering the price of a pump, baffle, sender, boot and hoses it's a real deal!

DMCVegas

10-27-2011, 03:21 PM

Is this 100% plug-n-play, or does it require an external logic box for the sending unit like TankZilla did?

DMCH James

10-27-2011, 04:27 PM

Is this 100% plug-n-play, or does it require an external logic box for the sending unit like TankZilla did?

This unit has an external logic box that controls the signal to the gauge.

James

DMCH James

10-27-2011, 04:33 PM

The pump that comes with this unit has been developed for DMC to run at the required pressures for the K-Jetronic. A separate pump may be made available later for the EFI guys.

James

Delorean Industries

10-27-2011, 04:56 PM

The pump that comes with this unit has been developed for DMC to run at the required pressures for the K-Jetronic. A separate pump may be made available later for the EFI guys.

James

If it can run at K jet pressures then it will run an EFI set up no problem. We do not swap out pumps on EFI conversions and actually dump a lot more into the return system due to our rail pressures only being 41psi +-.

Mark D

10-27-2011, 05:06 PM

:headbang:

Nice job DMCH! I can't belive all the recent exciting parts that are becoming available. Good times for D owners everywhere.

Mike C.

10-28-2011, 04:22 PM

This thread is getting my 4 star seal of approval.

nkemp

10-29-2011, 10:18 AM

does this module draw from the bottom of the sump/baffle or does it draw from the bottom of the tank and secondarily from the baffle (like some GM models)?

DMCH James

11-03-2011, 12:45 PM

does this module draw from the bottom of the sump/baffle or does it draw from the bottom of the tank and secondarily from the baffle (like some GM models)?

The way I see it, it draws from the baffle.

James

JMLaux

11-15-2011, 01:25 PM

This looks like an ACDelco/Delphi/Airtex pump. Here's hoping it is ACDelco, I've had problems with the Delphi pumps before, and Airtex is nothing but junk :(

DMCH James

11-15-2011, 01:38 PM

You can't even see the pump in any of these photos - just the complete assembly. And in that regard, it's none of the above.

James

Kenthegreat

11-30-2011, 10:38 PM

When is this going to become avail to purchase?

Henrik

12-13-2011, 01:50 PM

I am confused. I was trying to buy a Fuel Sending unit #110555 about a month ago and was told that there is a replacement coming within weeks. Is this (all-in-one) the replacement she was talking about or is there truly an updated Fuel Sending-only unit coming?

Henrik

01-11-2012, 01:29 PM

Is this available yet?

DMCMW Julee

01-11-2012, 05:30 PM

This should be coming in a few more weeks. Unfortunately, the initial production dates given "door to door" didn't quite play out as we had hoped.

Is seems as if things never go as easy as you expect them to.

ccurzio

02-06-2012, 09:07 AM

Any word on this as of yet? I'm looking to overhaul my fuel system and I'd like for this to be part of it.

jawn101

02-07-2012, 10:35 AM

DMCH James

02-07-2012, 12:57 PM

This is almost definitely a stupid question but I have to ask. If the white plastic part at the bottom is the baffle, what happens when the fuel level drops below the upper edge of it? How will fuel get inside to the pump? I'm assuming there are openings that just aren't visible in the photo. Does anyone have other pictures of the part itself?

There's a one-way valve on the bottom to let fuel in from the bottom in addition to the fuel return line.

First production shipment coming in later this month.

James

Mike C.

02-07-2012, 01:50 PM

There's a one-way valve on the bottom to let fuel in from the bottom in addition to the fuel return line.

First production shipment coming in later this month.

James

Very cool!

jawn101

02-07-2012, 04:32 PM

Thanks James! I agree this looks like a great upgrade. Do you have any pictures of the external logic box? Where is it recommended to mount that? Is it weatherproof so it can go in the fuel access area or is it better relocated somewhere inside the cabin? Does the harness for the new pump/sender directly interface with the factory wiring or will there be cutting/splicing/tapping/soldering/etc involved?

Exciting project! Sorry for all the questions...

DMCH James

02-21-2012, 06:02 PM

The logic box is water-resistant and should pose no problems if mounted as instructed. It's designed to be completely "plug and play" in every sense of the word, using the same connectors and requiring no new wiring for cars with stock wiring.

1. Disconnect battery
2. Remove the original in-tank components, unplug the pump harness.
3. Unplug fuel sender (leave sender in place).
4. Drop in new module, clamp into place with supplied clamp.
5. Mount logic box with supplied straps to fuel filler tube (from neck to tank)
6. Plug 2-wire harness from module to original 2-wire fuel pump harness on car.
7. Plug 3-wire harness from module to original 3-wire fuel sender harness on car.
8. Reconnect battery.

James

Henrik

02-22-2012, 11:55 AM

Is this in stock yet?

DMCH James

02-27-2012, 06:36 PM

Waiting on one or two more components to come in. We're told mid-March.

James

jawn101

02-27-2012, 08:15 PM

Cool. I am pretty certain my pump is up for replacement but I've been holding off until this kit is available.

xbrules

04-19-2012, 03:44 AM

Hey guys, Any update as to how far off the new pumps are...

Mine is on the way out and I'm really trying to hold on as long as I can for the new setup...

thanks

82DMC12

04-19-2012, 08:34 AM

I have a kit on order and I've been told for a couple weeks "any day now".

Andy

Tillsy

04-28-2012, 06:43 PM

Any update?

DMCMW Dave

04-28-2012, 07:15 PM

Any update?

Backordered units will start shipping this week, but there may be a slight delay to get the inventory built up. Houston started with a limited quantity to make sure there was a good instruction sheet and no latent issues. So far so good!

We can take orders now (with delayed shipment), and I presume it will show up on the website in the next few weeks.

DMCMW Julee

04-28-2012, 07:40 PM

To anyone who has already asked me to add them to my list, you should be hearing from me shortly. :)

dmcerik

04-30-2012, 11:37 PM

I saw this today when I was at DMC Midwest. Very cool setup.

DMCMW Dave

05-01-2012, 12:09 AM

Now that we've installed a couple and they are starting to ship:

The kit includes the pump, electronics module to run the gauge/low fuel light, clamp, a new fuel filter, hoses, clamps, barb fitting snap adapters, i.e. it replaces the previous fuel system kit and sender with one part number, and eliminates all the legacy problem areas inside the tank. This is a modern pump design specially adapted to K-Jet requirements, with minimal rubber componentry and full compatibility with the stuff that passes for gasoline now.

Wiring consists of 3 plugs - one to the new unit and one each to the harness wiring for the gauge and pump power. Completely plug-in, no cutting or splicing of wiring. Hose connections are made to the pump and body lines, but there is no longer that cover boot to deal with.

It also includes a stainless steel plug and new gasket so that the old fuel sender may be removed. It's so common for the old plastic sender to be damaged/deteriorated to the point of leaking that this was made a standard feature of the kit, and it does simplify the installation.

Houston does plan to have a stand-alone fuel sender available again at some point, with the same improvement to the gauge damping.

Here's what it looks like in place.

jawn101

05-01-2012, 12:20 AM

This really looks cool Dave. Thanks for sharing all that info and the photo.

dvonk

05-01-2012, 01:10 AM

This really looks cool Dave. Thanks for sharing all that info and the photo.

+1, looks like it was well thought-out. slick! :cool:

Bitsyncmaster

05-01-2012, 04:45 AM

It looks like a nice setup.
Is that electronic unit sealed?

Squall67584

05-01-2012, 10:10 AM

May be a dumb question, but when you say its adapted to k-jet requirements, will it also work with EFI? I figure EFI just needs a steady pressure from the pump.

ccurzio

05-01-2012, 10:12 AM

Where/how can I order one of these? What was originally "I want a new fuel pump" yesterday turned into "I NEED A NEW FUEL PUMP" after getting stranded on the side of a highway in a completely different state.

DMCMW Dave

05-01-2012, 11:49 AM

May be a dumb question, but when you say its adapted to k-jet requirements, will it also work with EFI? I figure EFI just needs a steady pressure from the pump.

It will depend on the pressure and volume requirements. If the EFI folks are still using the DMC Bosch pump this should work too. But I can't claim it was tested for it.

opethmike

05-01-2012, 11:52 AM

EFI just needs a high pressure fuel pump. The pressure is set by a fuel pressure regulator. So since this pump works with K-Jet, I can't think of any reason it won't work with EFI. I am still using the same pump as I had with K-Jet.

DMCMW Dave

05-01-2012, 12:08 PM

It is, after all, an EFI pump modified for KJet. .. .And a fuel sender is a fuel sender.

AdmiralSenn

05-03-2012, 06:22 PM

Houston does plan to have a stand-alone fuel sender available again at some point, with the same improvement to the gauge damping.

If I hadn't put a new pump in two years ago (not to mention revamped the baffle and pickup), I'd buy the whole setup. As it is I just want a sender and currently nobody offers one that will fill my needs.

When you say "at some point" are we talking "binnacles at some point" or "Hot Wheels at some point"?

DMCMW Dave

05-03-2012, 06:34 PM

If I hadn't put a new pump in two years ago (not to mention revamped the baffle and pickup), I'd buy the whole setup. As it is I just want a sender and currently nobody offers one that will fill my needs.

When you say "at some point" are we talking "binnacles at some point" or "Hot Wheels at some point"?
Sorry - that one's out of my realm.

AdmiralSenn

05-03-2012, 10:41 PM

Sorry - that one's out of my realm.

Oh well. I'll keep my eyes and ears open. And I'll keep looking for a Tankzilla or working OEM unit when I have spare money. Having a gas gauge that I have to decipher is no fun.

jmpdmc

05-04-2012, 01:43 AM

Anyone know how much current the new pump/sender module draws? Just curious since our #7 fuse runs close to maximum already.

Jeff

jawn101

05-04-2012, 11:02 AM

Good question, surprised none of us thought to ask it before.

82DMC12

05-04-2012, 11:24 AM

I will check this weekend unless Dave beats me to it.

Jack

05-08-2012, 11:29 AM

My question is, how does its baffle compare to a stock setup? The location of this integrated baffle seems very similar to the location of my tuna fish can baffle. Many people critisize the tuna can baffle saying the stock setup works much better.

I agree with Steve...
What happened to all the users saying, "placing the baffle in the front of the tank [was] a bad idea"...
To bad we cannot quote all the users on the old forum complaining about not being able to run their tanks bone dry.
Don't get me wrong I'm not bad mouthing innovation, I'm just saying this seems to be a clear cut case of flip flopping arguments.

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 11:40 AM

I agree with Steve...
What happened to all the users saying, "placing the baffle in the front of the tank [was] a bad idea"...
To bad we cannot quote all the users on the old forum complaining about not being able to run their tanks bone dry.
Don't get me wrong I'm not bad mouthing innovation, I'm just saying this seems to be a clear cut case of flip flopping arguments.

There are substantial differences which makes this work. This baffle is sealed at the bottom with a check valve (incoming only), and that it is about 2/3 the overall depth of the tank rather than an inch or two. Both these make the baffle much more effective regardless of placement as it holds a much larger reserve. The pump is also submerged at all times, even when the tank is very low, which helps with noise and cooling.

Make ALL the same mods to the tunafish baffles and you would get the same benefit.

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 11:53 AM

Also the fuel return goes straight into the pump baffle, keeping it full at all times. This pump is vastly superior to any tuna can pickup.

nkemp

05-08-2012, 12:03 PM

Curious ...Are the pumps used with the old design designed to be fully submersible?

Jack

05-08-2012, 12:06 PM

The pump is also submerged at all times, even when the tank is very low,

I question how the pump is always submerged?
Unless a baffle is feed by a separate pump the level inside a baffle cannot be greater than the level inside the tank.

Also the fuel return goes straight into the pump baffle, keeping it full at all times. This pump is vastly superior to any tuna can pickup.

A return line doesn't add more fuel from magic free fuel land.
It simply maintains the current level of the baffle.

GOT TO LOVE QUOTES

The GM pump has a hole in the bottom with a check valve to let fuel come in but not run out. So the level in the sump will be the same as the level in the tank...

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 12:28 PM

I question how the pump is always submerged?
Unless a baffle is feed by a separate pump the level inside a baffle cannot be greater than the level inside the tank.

The pump is at the bottom of the whole unit. As I said, the return dumps into the baffle with the pump, so yes it is possible for the baffle level to be significantly higher than the level in the tank - not true with an open tuna can. Think of it as an 8" high cylinder of gas.

A return line doesn't add more fuel from magic free fuel land.
It simply maintains the current level of the baffle.

If the gas is so low that the return is sputtering, unable to maintain a high level in the baffle, the engine is already dead. There is so little fuel left in the tank that no design is going to keep you from running out of gas. Should have stopped at that last station.

Andy

Jack

05-08-2012, 12:43 PM

jawn101

05-08-2012, 12:49 PM

I question how the pump is always submerged?
Unless a baffle is feed by a separate pump the level inside a baffle cannot be greater than the level inside the tank.

A return line doesn't add more fuel from magic free fuel land.
It simply maintains the current level of the baffle.

GOT TO LOVE QUOTES

Not sure why you're determined to condemn this thing before you've even seen it. I think we're fortunate to have as reliable a source as Dave as well as one of the first adopters of the product available to tell us the intentions and first experiences of/with the assembly. Perhaps let's reserve judgement until after we've heard how it works? Andy should be driving this car very soon from the looks of his resto thread.

Jack

05-08-2012, 12:59 PM

Not sure why you're determined to condemn this thing before you've even seen it. I think we're fortunate to have as reliable a source as Dave as well as one of the first adopters of the product available to tell us the intentions and first experiences of/with the assembly. Perhaps let's reserve judgement until after we've heard how it works? Andy should be driving this car very soon from the looks of his resto thread.

LOL I guess people only read what they want....

Don't get me wrong I'm not bad mouthing innovation...

This is simply about the placement of the baffle...
And how a lot of people hated anything that wasn't in the middle of the tank a year ago...
Just saying, I notice a lot of people on here will say somethings a bad idea one day and a good idea the next...

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 01:05 PM

The pump is at the bottom of the whole unit. As I said, the return dumps into the baffle with the pump, so yes it is possible for the baffle level to be significantly higher than the level in the tank - not true with an open tuna can. Think of it as an 8" high cylinder of gas.

If the gas is so low that the return is sputtering, unable to maintain a high level in the baffle, the engine is already dead. There is so little fuel left in the tank that no design is going to keep you from running out of gas. Should have stopped at that last station.

Andy

Well - I've been wrong before. But here's my current thinking.

Assuming the fuel is going somewhere, i.e. being burned, what is coming back into the baffle is less than what the pump is taking out. There is a checkvalve in the bottom of the baffle which only lets fuel in to the baffle from the tank.

Therefore the baffle will never be lower than the tank level due to hydrostatic pressure through the check valve. The baffle can be more full than the tank level since the fuel being returned from the engine is dumped into the baffle and cannot run out. So - the baffle will tend to be somewhere between the level of the tank and full (unless the tank is filled to over the level of the baffle). There is also some extra valving on the baffle that can draw fuel right from the bottom of the tank, so I believe (without actually testing it, but I will on the next one we install!) that the baffle is actually full all the time.

Next one we install I'm going to run the pump with a low tank set so I can observe the baffle.

Jack

05-08-2012, 01:15 PM

There is also some extra valving on the baffle that can draw fuel right from the bottom of the tank,
That's what I'm getting at...
A check value alone would only "feed" the baffle once the pressure drop in the baffle allowed it to open. IE less than the level of the tank.
So like you hinted at there's more then just a check valve tied to the baffle at play here.
Looking forward to what you find on your next install.

dmc6960

05-08-2012, 01:30 PM

I am one of those who previously would only advocate a 100% original fuel baffle. I now endorse this new unit just as much as the original setup, if not slightly more due to the advantage of no more flexible pickup line.

Nick Kemp did a lot of research on this type of GM unit last year, before even knowing DMC was working on it as well. He has a long thread about it. Its a good read...

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?1949

Basically, it comes down to what has already been mentioned... The exact design and engineering (checkvalves!) make this FAR FAR FAR superior to any "tuna can" baffle. When adding in the other benefits like the height of the baffle, spring loaded bottom, and the design of the return line, it makes the less-than-ideal placement (far forward) in the tank a moot point when compared to the function of the stock baffle.

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 01:38 PM

Therefore the baffle will never be lower than the tank level due to hydrostatic pressure through the check valve. The baffle can be more full than the tank level since the fuel being returned from the engine is dumped into the baffle and cannot run out. So - the baffle will tend to be somewhere between the level of the tank and full (unless the tank is filled to over the level of the baffle). There is also some extra valving on the baffle that can draw fuel right from the bottom of the tank, so I believe (without actually testing it, but I will on the next one we install!) that the baffle is actually full all the time.

This is exactly the way I think it works, but maybe I didn't explain it as well. I was going to take the bottom white cover off but it was pretty tough to try to open and I didn't want to risk cracking it (the pump wasn't even for my own car!). Currently I have the pump installed and the car is running. I drove it down the street to the gas station to fill up with a full tank of gas. By the way, the low fuel light came on as I was driving and I added 11.5 gallons until the pump clicked off. So, I guess it comes on around 2 gallons remaining. Right now I have the car up on jackstands doing a major brake service and new tires. As soon as the brakes are done (this might take a couple weeks) I will be driving this car like crazy to shake it down so I'll definitely do another real-life pump update.

Also, with a full tank of gas, the pump is VERY quiet and I could hardly tell it was running. I could hear the fuel moving in the fuel lines on the engine louder than I could hear the pump running with the RPM relay jumped.

Jack, here is a link to my install review with pics - maybe you haven't seen the up close photos yet.
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3824-NEW-Integrated-pump-sender-combo!

When the tank level gets so low that the fuel sloshes to the back, letting a forward-mounted, flush-to-the-tank-floor-sucking pump to run dry, you are seriously low on fuel!! But since the baffle acts as a fairly large reservior, I believe this pump can handle brief periods of low-fuel sloshing as long as you aren't going uphill at a steep angle!!

Andy

ccurzio

05-08-2012, 01:55 PM

I am one of those who previously would only advocate a 100% original fuel baffle. I now endorse this new unit just as much as the original setup, if not slightly more due to the advantage of no more flexible pickup line.

in my opinion, another really significant benefit is the 115 second sender delay. No more "HOLY CRAP MY TANK IS EMPTY oh wait I suddenly have a quarter of a tank" fuel gauge craziness on sudden and quick steep hills.

Jack

05-08-2012, 02:07 PM

Jack, here is a link to my install review with pics - maybe you haven't seen the up close photos yet.
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3824-NEW-Integrated-pump-sender-combo!

10072

According to the other thread about using a GM pump. It uses a pump with two inlets or possibly two pumps built into one.
So the red dot is the check value?
Is the piping on the top right the second inlet to let the pump feed directly from the tank?

dmc6960

05-08-2012, 02:10 PM

in my opinion, another really significant benefit is the 115 second sender delay. No more "HOLY CRAP MY TANK IS EMPTY oh wait I suddenly have a quarter of a tank" fuel gauge craziness on sudden and quick steep hills.

A 100% necessity with an unbaffled float like the new unit has. I'm putting similar logic in my new instrument cluster for those who have different senders. Knowing the new unit will already have a significant amount of delay built in, it'll also have an option to run realtime (thus the realtime already delayed signal from the new unit).

Furthermore on the fuel level logic, does this new unit run a time-delayed signal, a time-averaged signal, or a moment in time signal?

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 02:24 PM

10072

According to the other thread about using a GM pump. It uses a pump with two inlets or possibly two pumps built into one.
So the red dot is the check value?
Is the piping on the top right the second inlet to let the pump feed directly from the tank?

The red dot is a rubber float that sits loose and lets the fuel in.

The piping molded in - I'm not sure. Tried to take the white bottom cover off, and I got it loose but I was afraid of cracking it by pulling any harder. I also was curious and wanted to see how it works exactly. Hopefully someone else gets it open and explains better.

Andy

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 02:26 PM

Also if you look at the top of the pump there are three ports, only 2 are used. Not sure what the middle port is for since there are only two hoses going down to the lower chamber.

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 02:35 PM

Also if you look at the top of the pump there are three ports, only 2 are used. Not sure what the middle port is for since there are only two hoses going down to the lower chamber.

The third one is blanked off inside. Undoubtely part of the evap system on a more modern car. If open it would be a tank vent.

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 02:40 PM

Furthermore on the fuel level logic, does this new unit run a time-delayed signal, a time-averaged signal, or a moment in time signal?

Short answer - I don't know.

Longer answer - There are still some proprietary aspects to this unit. If others are going to knock it off we sure don't need to help them. . .

ccurzio

05-08-2012, 02:44 PM

A 100% necessity with an unbaffled float like the new unit has. I'm putting similar logic in my new instrument cluster for those who have different senders. Knowing the new unit will already have a significant amount of delay built in, it'll also have an option to run realtime (thus the realtime already delayed signal from the new unit).

This is scary. I can see you getting a bunch of people getting mad and wondering why it takes so long for the fuel gauge to update.

If I were you, I would ship every last one your units defaulting to "realtime" mode. Make it difficult to change (a jumper that sits behind a screw-on panel for instance) and explicitly mention in the instructions that you absolutely should not change the jumper unless you are completely certain it applies to that installation.

For most installations the realtime setting should work just fine. Existing senders will continue working as they always have, and any updated/improved senders will not be negatively impacted.

Jack

05-08-2012, 02:56 PM

82DMC12

05-08-2012, 03:19 PM

Okay after looking around I found this...
10164
As you can see one inlet sends fuel to the baffle and the other inlet acts as the original pump would.
So as stated before a return line does not increase the fuel in the baffle, it simply maintains the fuel in the baffle once the tank is empty.
Again I never meant to bash this update, was just curious how one pump could act as two...

It doesn't have to act as two. The baffle maintains tank level through the red float inlet. The fuel flows into the baffle there. As it draws down it is replaced by more fuel surrounding the pump through the float. In addition, the return is dumping into the baffle as well. So the baffle is filled by both fuel pressure surrounding the baffle (I think Dave said hydrostatic pressure) and the return fuel dumping on top.

At least that is how it appears to work. I think I know what you are saying though. I think the baffle level could be higher than the tank level at low load but maybe not during high load / consumption.

Jack

05-08-2012, 03:23 PM

It doesn't have to act as two. The baffle maintains tank level through the red float inlet. The fuel flows into the baffle there. As it draws down it is replaced by more fuel surrounding the pump through the float. In addition, the return is dumping into the baffle as well. So the baffle is filled by both fuel pressure surrounding the baffle (I think Dave said hydrostatic pressure) and the return fuel dumping on top.

At least that is how it appears to work. I think I know what you are saying though. I think the baffle level could be higher than the tank level at low load but maybe not during high load / consumption.

Oh I was thinking the red float inlet tied directly to the pump otherwise the fuel would simple escape back to the tank.

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 04:11 PM

This is scary. I can see you getting a bunch of people getting mad and wondering why it takes so long for the fuel gauge to update.

.

Why? The only time you would notice this is if you fill the tank with the engine running. As soon as the power is shut off, the circuit resets to where the float is. It is not very often you use gas in a car fast enough to see the float drop in a minute.

This effect did throw me the first time I put one of these in and tested the float. The update time is very long, but cycling the key will update the level immediately.

ccurzio

05-08-2012, 04:19 PM

Why? The only time you would notice this is if you fill the tank with the engine running. As soon as the power is shut off, the circuit resets to where the float is. It is not very often you use gas in a car fast enough to see the float drop in a minute.

I was talking to dmc6960 and referring to his instrument cluster with built-in fuel delay logic, not the new DMC pump/sender.

If someone were to use his instrument cluster on delay in addition to using the new DMC pump, that would mean 4+ minutes of no fuel gauge updates.

jawn101

05-08-2012, 04:21 PM

ccurzio

05-08-2012, 04:29 PM

The more descriptive these posts get about the technical merits of this unit, the more excited I get about it. Figures that one of the only things that *doesn't* need work on my car is the fuel pump.

Wow, I did I just hope for something to go wrong so I could buy a new part?

Nothing wrong with giving your car some modern upgrades. I'm super psyched about this unit, and I was looking to buy one even before anything was wrong with my fuel pump.

Same reason why I got Dave's solid-state RPM relay. My old one was working just fine, but there's a lot to be said for just the peace of mind that comes with modern component reliability. Additional features are a nice bonus.

jawn101

05-08-2012, 04:32 PM

Nothing wrong with giving your car some modern upgrades. I'm super psyched about this unit, and I was looking to buy one even before anything was wrong with my fuel pump.

Same reason why I got Dave's solid-state RPM relay. My old one was working just fine, but there's a lot to be said for just the peace of mind that comes with modern component reliability. Additional features are a nice bonus.

Right you are, I have a carload of Dave's stuff and had no "need" for any of it, other than peace of mind. But I got like 4 of his modules and it was still less than this unit :)

However, my wife might bug me less if the fuel sender was more accurate. She's always on me for being out of gas, when we all know it's just the DMCH sender reading a half tank low :lol:

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 04:32 PM

I was talking to dmc6960 and referring to his instrument cluster with built-in fuel delay logic, not the new DMC pump/sender.

If someone were to use his instrument cluster on delay in addition to using the new DMC pump, that would mean 4+ minutes of no fuel gauge updates.

Let's do some math. How much gas do you burn in 4 minutes?

At 120 MPH assuming a lousy 20 MPG, that's 8 miles in 4 minutes = 0.4 gallons. You still would never see it.

jawn101

05-08-2012, 04:44 PM

Let's do some math. How much gas do you burn in 4 minutes?

At 120 MPH assuming a lousy 20 MPG, that's 8 miles in 4 minutes = 0.4 gallons. You still would never see it.

Coming up next, video of Dave doing 120MPH in a D and still getting 20 MPG :)

Still very valid math, however...

DMCMW Dave

05-08-2012, 04:58 PM

Coming up next, video of Dave doing 120MPH in a D and still getting 20 MPG :)

Still very valid math, however...

Dave has probably never done over 80 in a D.

The BMW is another matter. . . . .

ccurzio

05-08-2012, 05:03 PM

Let's do some math. How much gas do you burn in 4 minutes?

At 120 MPH assuming a lousy 20 MPG, that's 8 miles in 4 minutes = 0.4 gallons. You still would never see it.

You're right of course, and that's definitely true for actual fuel consumption however my concern was more toward the tilt-shift of the liquid that I'd mentioned earlier, not actual fuel usage.

I'm reminded of last weekend when I went up to Ron's place in the mountains. Not a gas station in sight and I was uncomfortably low on fuel on some hilly roads on my way home. I had a good amount of gas going up there, but we ran the car a lot more than I'd expected getting the AC going so by the time I was on my way home I had a lot less gas in the tank than I'd planned to have for the trip back. It was very jarring every time I hit a hill and my tank was suddenly reading completely empty, and it would have been VERY uncomfortable if it took a long time for that gauge to update after the car leveled off and the gauge should have already started reflecting the actual tank level.

When you're watching your fuel gauge every second and are desperately looking for a gas station, 4+ minutes is a lot more of an eternity than 2 minutes when you're praying that you actually DO have gas in your tank and are waiting for the gauge to confirm that.

Either way, I'm the idiot for not having filled my tank. :)

jawn101

05-08-2012, 05:04 PM

Dave has probably never done over 80 in a D.

The BMW is another matter. . . . .

You've never gone 90 in a D just to convince yourself that nothing actually happens? How do you know you're not missing out on the fun stuff? :)

(spoiler: the only thing that happens is a whole lot of noise)

Bitsyncmaster

05-08-2012, 06:27 PM

You've never gone 90 in a D just to convince yourself that nothing actually happens? How do you know you're not missing out on the fun stuff? :)

(spoiler: the only thing that happens is a whole lot of noise)

You also get a ticket for reckless driving.:tongue:

DMCH James

05-09-2012, 09:43 AM

Bitsyncmaster

05-09-2012, 02:07 PM

Wonder if the fuel sender electronics are analog (op-amps and resistor, capacitors) or a micro. Either would work by delaying the rapid changes of the fuel level but with a micro you could really smooth things out with some good software.

DMCH James

05-09-2012, 02:21 PM

Bitsyncmaster

05-09-2012, 05:34 PM

Microprocessor controlled.

James

Cool. Now the only unknown is if the pump will still buzz loudly when the gas gets hot. My guess is it will because I think it's a function of the gas caveatting in the pump when it's hot. I hope it proves me wrong.

DMCMW Dave

05-09-2012, 05:45 PM

Cool. Now the only unknown is if the pump will still buzz loudly when the gas gets hot. My guess is it will because I think it's a function of the gas caveatting in the pump when it's hot. I hope it proves me wrong.

There is essentially no pickup hose to collapse so that won't be a issue.

Having owned this pump design (not necessarily the same maker) in other cars (you probably have one in your Chevy!) I do know that a common failure mode is for the pump to get noisy a couple of years before it fails, or if it's working into a plugged fuel filter.

Does the one in your Malibu get noisy when hot?

Bitsyncmaster

05-09-2012, 06:22 PM

There is essentially no pickup hose to collapse so that won't be a issue.

Having owned this pump design (not necessarily the same maker) in other cars (you probably have one in your Chevy!) I do know that a common failure mode is for the pump to get noisy a couple of years before it fails, or if it's working into a plugged fuel filter.

Does the one in your Malibu get noisy when hot?

No problem in my Malibu but I don't think that gas tank gets as hot as in the D. I've read about the same buzz problem in other cars when it gets hot.

stevedmc

05-09-2012, 06:28 PM

Hot Wheels. They won't be ready for DCS, but this summer for sure.

James

Will binnacles be ready for DCS?

nkemp

05-09-2012, 06:58 PM

The other failure mode is that the resistive elements on the sender/sensor fail and you gas gauge no longer works at all. How do I know? That is another project ... my wife's Regal needs a new module because the gas guage failed. You can find sender replacements on eBay but when the sensor fails, the pump may, or may not, may be right behind so you might as well replace the complete module. That said, the car has over 150,000 miles on that pump module.

DeLoreanman

05-09-2012, 07:43 PM

DMCMW Dave

05-09-2012, 10:10 PM

Soooo, are these shipping yet? I didn't see a date. I saw this summer sometime but was wondering if there was a rough ballpark estimate date? I think you guys are just teasing me about this whole new pump thing.

Now shipping, with a bit of a backlog due to some pent-up demand. I suppose that when supply catches up it will be on the Houston website, so if you want to get on the list you need to call.

DeLoreanman

05-09-2012, 10:39 PM

I've been on the list since the first three pumps. I was under the impression that they weren't shipping yet so this is good news. I'll be calling Houston tomorrow.

AdmiralSenn

05-11-2012, 10:50 AM

Hot Wheels. They won't be ready for DCS, but this summer for sure.

James

Huzzah!

(Also, that came out as more snarky than I meant it to - sorry about that. Thanks for the update!)

DMCH James

06-12-2012, 04:27 PM

Another 30 arrived this week, ten will be available at DCS and Don Steger's tech talk will be on fuel systems and will have this unit on display.

James

jeff

07-30-2013, 11:51 PM

I'm going to bump this sucker. How many of you guys are running this new set up?

jawn101

07-31-2013, 11:29 PM

I'm going to bump this sucker. How many of you guys are running this new set up?

I've got it and am so far quite happy.

elfking

08-01-2013, 12:36 AM

I have one installed in mine as well... I only drove it about 30 miles before tearing out the leaky brake master... That said it is nice and quiet! My old one was so loud haha. A welcomed upgrade!

Silverbullet

08-01-2013, 12:47 AM

Had mine for a year, works great and is quiet... Really nice system, fits great and easy to install.

Citizen

08-01-2013, 06:27 PM

How many of you guys are running this new set up?

I've had mine since January. Works great. Installed it myself. Had a little issue with the fit (kinda tight, top bumped the cover), but in the end it worked out. No problems to report. Fuel guage seems extremely accurate, and no bouncing around.

Thomas

...

kings1527

08-05-2013, 12:48 PM

Just installed mine last night. Very easy to install, which was a welcome change from projects of late. The instructions are very well done and the unit is incredibly quiet. You'll tune out any noise real quickly. The overall design and construction of the unit looks great. I installed the new fuel filter and by far that was the worst part, if you decide to do that too.

jeff

08-07-2013, 03:35 PM

Thanks guys, just placed my order.

jeff

10-11-2013, 03:06 PM

Any tricks or tips getting getting the pump into the tank? It is a super tight fit!! I'm scared I'm going to break it trying to push it down. I worked on it for an hour, and its not in.

Did you attach the rubber to pump and then into the tank? Or did you place the rubber in the tank and then set the pump in?

I used a hair dryer to soften the rubber which seemed to make it a little easier but by then I was annoyed and gave up. I'll give it another go tonight.

jawn101

10-11-2013, 03:28 PM

jeff

10-11-2013, 04:06 PM

The rubber that goes around the pump, it sits in between the pump and the tank. The piece of rubber that goes around the "neck/top" of the pump.

Picture taken from this thread:

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt212/ffeejj/tankmodule.jpg (http://s613.photobucket.com/user/ffeejj/media/tankmodule.jpg.html)

Mcv200

10-11-2013, 04:22 PM

I had the rubber gasket around the pump when I installed mine. It was tight, but I was able to work it all the way down by rotating the whole thing slightly
back & forth while pushing it in.

I put mine in a brand new tank however. I don't know if the opening is larger than original or not.

Mike

nkemp

10-11-2013, 05:04 PM

Try a little light lubricant (petroleum based) on the rubber gasket.

jeff

10-11-2013, 06:04 PM

Can I use silicone lubricant?

This stuff specifically:

http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Hardware/Automotive/Lube-Products/Multi-purpose/Multi-purpose/190g-Slick-N-Shine-Lubricant/_/N-ntjbtZ2pq5/R-I8640955

Jimmyvonviggle

10-11-2013, 06:45 PM

Try a little light lubricant (petroleum based) on the rubber gasket.

I'm sure you are joking because petroleum will break down rubber.

Jimmyvonviggle

10-11-2013, 06:48 PM

jeff

10-11-2013, 07:03 PM

I've tried, I crawled in the trunk and applied as much as my 180lb weight would allow....I can't get it. Twisting, pushing and swearing lol.

I thought petro based lubricant ate rubber as well, but wasn't sure. Barry, could I use the silicon lube I posted a link for in the previous page?

nkemp

10-11-2013, 07:45 PM

I'm sure you are joking because petroleum will break down rubber.

If you put that much lube on it to break it down (if it is even petroleum sensitive...which it should not be since it is used in a tank full of petroleum!) you've used WAY too much. A little dab will do ya.

Avoid silicone in order to protect the O2 sensor.

I believe WD49 is fish oil... that might help. But if you have applied 180lbs and it won't go in there may be other issues. Does the tank have a lip inside?

Silverbullet

10-11-2013, 07:56 PM

My guess is you will find you have an old style fuel tank... and it is a different size, as you have a really early car... There ie a used tank on E-bay for cheap now... that would fix it...

Craig

Jimmyvonviggle

10-11-2013, 09:01 PM

If you put that much lube on it to break it down (if it is even petroleum sensitive...which it should not be since it is used in a tank full of petroleum!) you've used WAY too much. A little dab will do ya.

Avoid silicone in order to protect the O2 sensor.

I believe WD49 is fish oil... that might help. But if you have applied 180lbs and it won't go in there may be other issues. Does the tank have a lip inside?

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there a difference between gasoline and a petroleum based lubricant like Vaseline and its effects on rubber?

Maybe you should measure the depth of your tank with a measuring tape, and then measure the compressed height of the fuel sending unit.

jeff

10-11-2013, 11:35 PM

I did measure the depth of the tank, the pump will fit. All it would take is the rubber gasket to be a few mm too thick, I don't know.

However I did manage to get it 90% in, farther than I have previously. I used the hair dryer and got the rubber nice and soft, and it was noticeable easier. 80% of the pump is flush but the last 20% is not quite there. The clamp is holding it down, I'll work on it a tomorrow.

I had less trouble changing my window regulator :)

ALEXAKOS

10-12-2013, 04:31 AM

Believe it or not this is the DIESEL fuel pump of my 2003 Grand Cherokee I exchanged a while ago.
I found the similarity incredible!
http://www.autoteileplus.de/verkaeufer/3150330/bilder/16478331_2.jpg
The lower cap is removeable

Josh

10-12-2013, 12:01 PM

Looks a tad short. However, next time i am at the junkyard I will pull one just for kicks and see how it fits.

ALEXAKOS

10-12-2013, 12:40 PM

That is from the 2.7 CRD DIESEL Grand Cherokee Josh. The 3.0 DIESEL and 4.7 gasoline releases look very different;)

Josh

10-12-2013, 03:27 PM

Well we do not have the 2.7, and the 3.0 is very hard to come by. Mostly 4.0's and 4.7's. I just figured the tank would be the same. The pump does look similar for the gassers.

rdarlington

12-20-2013, 03:48 PM

DMCMW Dave

12-20-2013, 06:48 PM

Does anybody else hate the electrical connector on the DMCH integrated pump and level sender units? I had to use big pliars to snap it on before it clicked, and it still comes off if I wiggle it gently.

I forgot all about this till I went in and put new screws on that access cover earlier this week. I must have knocked it loose because last night she wouldn't start. It took about 30 seconds to think to check that connector and sure enough, it was loose.

I'm afraid I'm going to break it if I squeeze any harder. Any suggestions other than to replace the unit?

-Bob

Un-plug it.

Dribble a small amount of WD40 or the like on the rubber gasket in the shell (wire end), and make sure the gasket is laying flat. It's supposed to be a tight weatherproof fit, but the rubber is a bit sticky. If it goes in right it should not take that much force, in fact (like anything else plastic!) if you have to force it, something isn't right.

rdarlington

12-20-2013, 07:28 PM

Un-plug it.

Dribble a small amount of WD40 or the like on the rubber gasket in the shell (wire end), and make sure the gasket is laying flat. It's supposed to be a tight weatherproof fit, but the rubber is a bit sticky. If it goes in right it should not take that much force, in fact (like anything else plastic!) if you have to force it, something isn't right.

Thanks Dave. I'll give that a try.

-Bob

NightFlyer

12-21-2013, 01:25 PM

Does anybody else hate the electrical connector on the DMCH integrated pump and level sender units? I had to use big pliars to snap it on before it clicked, and it still comes off if I wiggle it gently.

I forgot all about this till I went in and put new screws on that access cover earlier this week. I must have knocked it loose because last night she wouldn't start. It took about 30 seconds to think to check that connector and sure enough, it was loose.

I'm afraid I'm going to break it if I squeeze any harder. Any suggestions other than to replace the unit?

-Bob

I had the same issue. I even tried removing the rubber gasket to no avail - it still wouldn't securely snap on. In retrospect, I could have tried shortening the length of the plastic plug by sanding/grinding it down a little bit, but I didn't. Instead, my ultimate solution was to wrap the entire plug/connector assembly in a decent amount of electrical tape to prevent unintended separation. Worked for 4 months before I put the car away for winter hibernation.

Best of luck!

If you do decide to try shortening the length of the plug a little, let us know how it worked :smile: