Spittybug - Designs for converting stock setup to EFI

[Spittybug]

I pulled my old manifold assembly (with all the K-Jet pieces attached like some kind of morbid stuffed animal back from the taxidermist) out of the cabinet I now store it in and plunked it down onto my workbench to stare at it. I'm chewing on just how one could possibly modify it to EFI with minimal intrusion and reversibility. I'm sure more mechanically competent minds than mine have tried, but then again I have a stubborn streak in me.

My "rules" for such a mod would be that it had to be reversible, be more reliable than K-Jet, not required a new manifold, must be safe, perform at least as well as a functional K-Jet, be doable by the average Delorean owner (with some good instructions) and cost under $1000 all in.

Ideas being kicked around:


Our stock injectors (always open) could conceivably be used in this mod by feeding them with a fuel line that is modulated just like a modern fuel injector being opened and closed. Megasquirt opens/closes each bank of injectors at the same time or sequentially and I've not been able to notice a real difference in performance between the two. As Opethmike pointed out, ours are constantly open anyway.
Alternatively, the W pipe might present a place to insert one or two large injectors, thus turning our manifolds "wet" and obsoleting our current injectors. Those holes can simply be plugged with a long bolt as several of us do. Large volume injectors are <$100 apiece items and could be plumbed via fuel hose rather than rail. The modification to the W pipe would involve drilling holes for the injector and some form of bracket to hold the injector in place. Whether this could be done at the very opening of the W pipe, under the access cover or not (one big injector), I don't know. It may need to be in the sharp radius which would required a bit more work to reverse if desired. The benefit of doing it in the W pipe would be maximum air flow for uniformity and owners could easily mail in a W pipe for a modification rather than say a whole manifold.
If one of the two above could work, there would be no need to find new manifolds, change the stock throttle body or throttle cable or build fuel rails. A pressure regulator would need to go inline, but other than that, the fuel system could remain pretty much intact.
Idle air would be an issue. I think the best solution for that would be to machine a small aluminum block into which a standard GM worm gear idle air valve (<$100) would fit. This could be mounted pretty easily in the above mentioned beginning of the W pipe if the injectors were in the elbows. It wouldn't be very big and could be made to screw into the cover plate holes to hold it down.
Replace narrow band 02 with wide band. Add in an intake air temperature sensor (could be put into the back side of the stock air filter housing with just a small drill hole), re purpose the water temp sensor in the Y pipe, remove the air deflector plate or block it open, and done. If spark control were desired, the mechanical advance in the dizzy must be locked in place (need to see if that can be done without the little tack weld I used).
Megasquirt would then control the system. Wiring into our cars would be comparable to what is in my write up earlier in this thread.

A user could then remove a lot of the hoses and K-Jet components to clean the engine bay up if they wanted to, but wouldn't have to if they wanted to leave it looking essentially stock.

The success of a mod like this would appear to depend entirely on the aerodynamics of our stock manifolds and whether throttle body injection rather than port injection would be good enough. If it weren't, I'm sure that we have sufficient brain power in this group to come up with the "master" fuel injectors that could be installed upstream of our existing injectors (sounds like frequency valves or 60 lb/hr fuel injectors minus their spray nozzles) to keep our port injection system.

Calling all fabricators and tinkers! :wrenchin:

[opethmike]

I pulled my old manifold assembly (with all the K-Jet pieces attached like some kind of morbid stuffed animal back from the taxidermist) out of the cabinet I now store it in and plunked it down onto my workbench to stare at it. I'm chewing on just how one could possibly modify it to EFI with minimal intrusion and reversibility. I'm sure more mechanically competent minds than mine have tried, but then again I have a stubborn streak in me.

My "rules" for such a mod would be that it had to be reversible, be more reliable than K-Jet, not required a new manifold, must be safe, perform at least as well as a functional K-Jet, be doable by the average Delorean owner (with some good instructions) and cost under $1000 all in.

Ideas being kicked around:


Our stock injectors (always open) could conceivably be used in this mod by feeding them with a fuel line that is modulated just like a modern fuel injector being opened and closed. Megasquirt opens/closes each bank of injectors at the same time or sequentially and I've not been able to notice a real difference in performance between the two. As Opethmike pointed out, ours are constantly open anyway.
Alternatively, the W pipe might present a place to insert one or two large injectors, thus turning our manifolds "wet" and obsoleting our current injectors. Those holes can simply be plugged with a long bolt as several of us do. Large volume injectors are <$100 apiece items and could be plumbed via fuel hose rather than rail. The modification to the W pipe would involve drilling holes for the injector and some form of bracket to hold the injector in place. Whether this could be done at the very opening of the W pipe, under the access cover or not (one big injector), I don't know. It may need to be in the sharp radius which would required a bit more work to reverse if desired. The benefit of doing it in the W pipe would be maximum air flow for uniformity and owners could easily mail in a W pipe for a modification rather than say a whole manifold.
If one of the two above could work, there would be no need to find new manifolds, change the stock throttle body or throttle cable or build fuel rails. A pressure regulator would need to go inline, but other than that, the fuel system could remain pretty much intact.
Idle air would be an issue. I think the best solution for that would be to machine a small aluminum block into which a standard GM worm gear idle air valve (<$100) would fit. This could be mounted pretty easily in the above mentioned beginning of the W pipe if the injectors were in the elbows. It wouldn't be very big and could be made to screw into the cover plate holes to hold it down.
Replace narrow band 02 with wide band. Add in an intake air temperature sensor (could be put into the back side of the stock air filter housing with just a small drill hole), re purpose the water temp sensor in the Y pipe, remove the air deflector plate or block it open, and done. If spark control were desired, the mechanical advance in the dizzy must be locked in place (need to see if that can be done without the little tack weld I used).
Megasquirt would then control the system. Wiring into our cars would be comparable to what is in my write up earlier in this thread.

A user could then remove a lot of the hoses and K-Jet components to clean the engine bay up if they wanted to, but wouldn't have to if they wanted to leave it looking essentially stock.

The success of a mod like this would appear to depend entirely on the aerodynamics of our stock manifolds and whether throttle body injection rather than port injection would be good enough. If it weren't, I'm sure that we have sufficient brain power in this group to come up with the "master" fuel injectors that could be installed upstream of our existing injectors (sounds like frequency valves or 60 lb/hr fuel injectors minus their spray nozzles) to keep our port injection system.

Calling all fabricators and tinkers! :wrenchin:

Cool project idea there, Owen.

Some thoughts I have:

I think it is easier to do the coolant temperature sensor by removing the thermotime switch, tapping the adapter, and inserting a standard GM CLT sensor. No need to worry about configuring tables in the MS then.

I don't think idle air would be a problem. Even with my Z7U manifold, I am keeping the stock idle speed motor and vacuum advance solenoid. The way I am making it work (and this is very much credited to Jim Reeve) is that I wire into the wire coming from the idle ECU with the diode in it. I connect that wire to one of the extra output ports on the MS ECU. I then use Tuner Studio to provide ground over that channel when the throttle position sensor shows that the throttle is closed.

This is a really cool project idea. Let's keep the brain storming coming!

[Spittybug]

Ouch. You just reminded me about the throttle position sensor. Making one that would work with the stock throttle body would be a little challenging. Maybe one could be made to sit on top of the throttle spool. Need to think on that.

I personally don't like the idea of the stock idle air. I think that is one of the areas where people have difficulties. It's like being half pregnant keeping that, isn't it? Just my opinion.

[opethmike]

Ouch. You just reminded me about the throttle position sensor. Making one that would work with the stock throttle body would be a little challenging. Maybe one could be made to sit on top of the throttle spool. Need to think on that.

I personally don't like the idea of the stock idle air. I think that is one of the areas where people have difficulties. It's like being half pregnant keeping that, isn't it? Just my opinion.

Yeah, I agree to an extent with you. I'm a bit conservative in my approach to modernizing my engine management in that I am taking it one single step at a time. First, I'm going to get the fueling right, then maybe a better ISM, then timing.

[Spittybug]

I mocked this up just to see if the clearances are there and for everyone to be able to visualize what I'm brainstorming. These are only 19 lb/hr injectors, but I don't think there is any material difference in size (if any) for higher flow ones. Use your imagination on the relay in the center! That's about the right size and shape for an aluminum block to accept the pintle of the idle air valve. Underneath the cover that has been removed are two 1/4" or so holes, one into each side of the W pipe. Perfect for idle air. Obviously the aluminum rod and flashlight were there for staging the pic, but the rod could be a very short length of fuel rail that was mechanically connected to the idle block to hold the injectors in place. Fabrication of something like this would be a bit of work up front, but it would create a standardized setup onto any W pipe. The key is whether a wet manifold setup would work in the first place. Note too the GM throttle position sensor precariously perched on the throttle spool. Need ideas for that. Typically they go on the end of the butterfly shaft, opposite the linkage. Ours is enclosed in the throttle body.

Even if the other idea (upstream injectors of our injectors) is a better one, the idle air billet will be necessary, but obviously simpler.

[Spittybug]

In looking around, there are lots of OEM style idle valves that could fit quite easily I believe. This one for example; http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/STANDARD-SMP-IDLE-AIR-CONTROL-VALVE-IAC-TABPV-AC253-/170700500062?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27be8aec5e#vi-ilComp

A simple adapter plate under it would have a side port nipple to bring air in from the air cleaner box (or through a small filter of its own), up into one of the two ports of this valve, and the output goes straight down through the adapter into the two holes in the W pipe. Really any self contained IAC with two chambers and a worm-gear-moving-pintle between them (opening or blocking off the air) would work. No modification to W pipe.

I'm spending more time thinking about the idea that uses our existing fuel injectors and simply re-plumbing them. For the throttle position sensor, what would be really neat would be to be able to replace the micro switch that the throttle assembly pushes on (idle speed micro switch) with some kind of linear potentiometer. Dave M. suggested this, but I haven't yet been able to fully visualize how to install something like that.

[AdmiralSenn]

My conversion uses fuel rails almost identical to yours, but with injectors in the stock fuel injector ports and a bracket that holds the rails down via existing bolt holes in the manifold. Daryl's is very similar. So this is a definite possibility. The only real downside is that it blocks access to the spark plugs, but it's really not that much work to remove the manifold and rails (total of six bolts, I can get to the plugs in about three minutes).

Idle air is (although still in progress) accomplished through the plate above the W pipe as you mentioned, and CLT is through the TTS adapter as Mike said. The only thing I haven't fully figured out is the TPS - I made a bracket and rain shield for mine but I've gone through several TPS units now so I'm exploring other options.

I would love if that idle motor could be made to just fit on the W pipe plate. That'd solve a LOT of problems... Especially if it can be pulse width modulated or stepped instead of just being on or off. Our original ISMs could open or close less based on engine needs (at least this is how I've always understood them to work, my car came without one), it would REALLY suck to go "backwards" and have only a standard on-off in its place.

[Spittybug]

My conversion uses fuel rails almost identical to yours, but with injectors in the stock fuel injector ports and a bracket that holds the rails down via existing bolt holes in the manifold. Daryl's is very similar. So this is a definite possibility.


I thought that a modern injector was too wide for our ports :dunno:

I think it was Josh B. that talked about reaming out the holes to make them wider.....

IF indeed modern injectors can replace ours, this becomes a no brainer!

[AdmiralSenn]

I thought that a modern injector was too wide for our ports :dunno:

I think it was Josh B. that talked about reaming out the holes to make them wider.....

IF indeed modern injectors can replace ours, this becomes a no brainer!

Nope. They fit remarkably well. Depending on o-ring tolerances you may have to gently tap them in with a piece of wood but mine pop in exactly as tightly as the old K-jet units did.

The proper EFI manifold is a FAR better solution, I think, but for absolute cheapness, this is a great way to do it. And an intake is easy - you can remove the mixture box and build a new intake with Autozone style "tuner" stuff - air filter, flexible hose, and a 3"-2.5" adapter, trimmed down, makes a decent intake. Substitute hard tubing or fancy airboxes if you want to make it nicer.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I was thinking about the throttle position sensor. You don't really need to put it on the the engine. Just put it on the accelerator pedal. That way you don't have to worry about heat and water.

[AdmiralSenn]

That works but you'd have to run a much longer set of wires all the way up there. It's not hard, but we're using premade bundles of wire that really only need to be a few feet long to reach the engine bay - you could splice in more, or you'd have to buy an extra super long bundle to retain the printed and color coded wiring, then junk all but three of the ~20 wires it comes with.

I'm contemplating modifying either the throttle cable spool or the butterfly hinge itself to accommodate a better TPS.

[Ron]

I bet one of Bill's manifold's could be used with an adapter plate, perhaps Yep, there are a lot of adapters, spread bore/2bbl/4bbl/etc to TBI/EFI.
I'm wondering why not set everything before the horns aside, build the simplest of aluminum boxes to mate to them, weld one of these (see below) on it, then use a 2.8L GM TBI setup:

5417

Or are we avoiding TBI all together?

[content22207]

I'm wondering why not set everything before the horns aside, build the simplest of aluminum boxes to mate to them....

Like this?

5418

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

Yes, but without welding to anything already there.

I was thinking along the "reversible" and "proven" parameters previously said.
I'd be looking at the feasibility of drilling the heads and ported if I were going that far.

[AdmiralSenn]

Another option that I don't think anyone's successfully done is a replacement for the W pipe altogether - mount custom throttle bodies to the existing intake. If we could find some that could be modded (extrudabodies anyone?) we could maybe make an all-in-one solution to the vacuum port/TPS/idle control issue with a custom set of adapters.

That's probably a little too complicated for what we're doing though..

[Ron]

I was thinking similar to that when I thought of the simple box...just make a "T" shaped box if you dont like the horns. Makes for a heck of a highrise. LOL

[Spittybug]

Good feedback guys. I really appreciate constructive dialogue.

I was totally unaware that the stock injector holes would take new injectors. Either that or I'm getting more senile every day (wife's hypothesis). I vaguely recall an issue with length too though.....If the tubes are too long, your nice injector spray would end up on tube walls and drip, wouldn't it? In any case some of you guys are doing this and running OK, right? I want to go visualize fuel rails and see if they get in the way.

Dave's idea about a throttle sensor at the pedal has some intrigue, but I'm not sure it becomes any easier mechanically unless someone makes an aftermarket one perhaps?. This is the #1 obstacle I think.

I think the idle air "block" is a no-brainer.

Whether to keep the fuel distributor assembly for the purpose of looking stock and reusing the air cleaner would be up to the owner. I think AdmiralSenn's idea of losing everything on the upstream side of the throttle body and simply making an adapter to go from the throttle body to a nice round or oval "lip" that could receive an air tube, boot or air filter directly (right in the space created by the manifold sides) is probably the cleanest and lightest. Can't believe it would be too hard either. Again, standard build and provides a means to mount the intake air sensor in a standard location.

Keep brainstorming on the TPS!

[Ron]

I think I confused things calling the "W" pipe horns?
(Looks more like horns to a country boy than the plenum does. lol)

Something like this is what I meant.
( Keeping the W pipe means a simple box. Set it aside like the AdmiralSenn said means we don't have to mess with the throttle plates and add volume to the plenum)

5424

Spitty, you didn't say, or I missed it somewhere along the line, forget TBI?

[sean]

Something like this is what I meant (w/o the "Horns"...cut the top of of the "T" for simple box)

5424

Makes sense to me but don't you want some "curves" in the plumbing to flow the air?

[Spittybug]

Spitty, you didn't say, or I missed it somewhere along the line, forget TBI?

Given the success I'm hearing with the injectors in the stock location as well as the fact that our manifolds have such a large internal volume, I don't see an advantage of a wet manifold (TBI). I like the idea of keeping the "horns" or W pipe because they are a gentler transition and are already properly mated to the throttle body and therefore the throttle spool; things that work fine as is, so why mess with them? They also provide a nice, minimal fabrication spot for the idle air block. Admiral's option of creating an air intake adapter is kind of optional in my mind; cleans things up a lot but isn't required so long as the air deflector plate is removed/locked open.

Do we know of anyone running a wet, stock manifold, carb or EFI?

[Ron]

Makes sense to me but don't you want some "curves" in the plumbing to flow the air?

At first I thought it would be good to leave the W pipe because of that, but thinking further about factory setups, I remembered that the throttle body dumps straight down against the 'floor' of the manifold like a carb (some even have ribs right under them that the flow collides into). Now which is better that far up stream is beyond my knowledge...I know who to ask if someone else here don't know for sure. But I doubt a D could draw it hard enough to make any real difference that mattered....?


; things that work fine as is, so why mess with them?
I was thinking- 'To take advantage of all of the things that are already around'...all we would have to do is build a thin aluminum box, weld an eBay adaptor on it and the rest (throttle body to brain) is laying all over the junk yards.
I'd like to play with any of the several options but I'm not sure what has priority over what for you. I don't want to beat a dead horse here ;-)


Admiral's option of creating an air intake adapter is kind of optional in my mind; cleans things up a lot but isn't required so long as the air deflector plate is removed/locked open. Split the difference and remove the upper half of the mix unit...?

[dmc6960]

If I was a good fabricator, and the Z7U EFI manifold never existed, I would have mimicked the stock mechanical setup in an EFI form. Instead of fuel rails, I would have a "mock" distributor in the stock location with braided fuel lines following the original locations to the injectors. Unsure how I'd hold them down though, never had to think that far. I know the injector seats are pressed into the heads, so they can be removed, and perhaps replaced with something a little shorter to better accommodate EFI injectors. In this setup the stock idle motor would remain, the cold start valve would be capped off, or possibly the top of the brass pipe modified to be a direct transition to the idle motor. The transition between the air filter and throttle body would be newly fabricated (not a hollowed out K-Jet venturi). This would also have a barb for the idle motor air source, and a bung for the intake air temp sensor. Ideally the temp sensor would be right after the throttle plates and where the idle air rejoins the manifold (best for temperature taking), but that would not be possible using the stock manifold in this manner. An alternate method could be to incorporate the idle motor in with the venturi replacement (sitting in-between the two intake banks) and deposit the idle air where the blanking plate is on the W-pipe. That would free up cylinder #4 for those who dont like taking an extra 2 minutes to remove it when servicing the injector or spark plug.

If you haven't guessed, I'm real big on stock appearances. This is why I've fitted the stock airbox on top of my Z7U manifold. When I eventually get an engine dyno, I'll also experiment with a fitted cone filter to see if it makes any difference. If it does my decision to keep it will probably be based on how big the improvement is. A stock engine shouldn't expect to see any gain, but my engine is far from stock.

[Spittybug]

I've had a PM question on some of the terms in the thread. Just so that we are on the same page, technically correct or not, this is how I've been referring to things:

W pipe = Horns = Small cast piece between throttle body and manifold
Manifold=Plenum=Single large cast piece the size of grandma's rocking chair
Throttle body - contains butterfly valves, connects to W pipe on one end, fuel distributor on other. Has throttle linkage on passenger side
Fuel distribution unit = Octopus - Everything "upstream" of the throttle body up to the air filter
K-Jet "stuff"= All that can be revoved once idle air and fuel injection is done
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor
MS II = Megasquirt 2
MAP = Manifold Air Pressure (sensor found on MS circuit board)
CLT sensor = Coolant temperature sensor
Innovate LC1 = Wideband oxygen sensor
IAC = Idle air controller - two basic varieties, open/closed and stepping which is more precisely controlled. I'm NOT referring to the stock one unless specifically stated
Y Pipe = Coolant pipe down in the Valley of Death
North and South = Upstream and downstream respectively (tailpipe is deep south:) )


Sorry for any confusions. I'm going to take a look at what an adapter would need to look like if we removed everything North of the throttle body.

[sean]

W pipe = Horns = Small cast piece between throttle body and manifold
5429
Manifold=Plenum=Single large cast piece the size of grandma's rocking chair
5430
Throttle body - contains butterfly valves, connects to W pipe on one end, fuel distributor on other. Has throttle linkage on passenger side
5431
Fuel distribution unit = Octopus - Everything "upstream" of the throttle body up to the air filter
5432
Y Pipe = Coolant pipe down in the Valley of Death
5433

[AdmiralSenn]

These aren't the best pictures (engine bay was still dusty and many of the hoses and wire looms are just "floating" because I was still playing with lengths and routing) but here's a rough idea of what my engine compartment looks like using a stock manifold and rails in the original ports.

5441

Here's my Rice-a-Roni air intake - the adapter is just jammed into the rubber transition piece that attaches to the throttles, the fight is so tight that it doesn't really need anything else. I'll be putting a bracket on to secure it better anyway, but it works like this.

5442

The brackets I use to hold the rails down. Plenty strong enough to keep them from moving - no fires this time!

5443

And the whole thing in all its unfinished, kind of gnarly glory.

The only issue I have with this configuration besides the spark plugs being a tad more annoying to get to is that I haven't gotten throttle acceleration worked out yet - getting it into first without stalling it is a little tricky. My previous tune had addressed this and the car ran fantastically well, so far this build looks like it'll run at least as well if not better.

[Ron]

These aren't the best pictures...
What is it...3000 words?...I like it so far!

[Spittybug]

Adam, it's hard to tell from the pictures, but how much clearance is there from the fuel rails to the spark plug boots and to the sides of the manifold? Would you think that a fuel header and 6 braided hoses to the injectors would be better?

[AdmiralSenn]

Adam, it's hard to tell from the pictures, but how much clearance is there from the fuel rails to the spark plug boots and to the sides of the manifold? Would you think that a fuel header and 6 braided hoses to the injectors would be better?

The fuel rails rest just high enough for the spark plug wires to curve gracefully out of the way instead of being smashed down. The inside edge of each rail is almost exactly in line with the outer edge of the manifold on each side.

A manifold + hoses system would work great for ease of access but would be a plumbing and mounting nightmare.

Consider: If using standard EFI injectors, each injector must be securely clipped down somehow into the port. Then each hose must be VERY securely attached to each injector - hard to do with a press-fit o-ring fitting. There are some clips out there to clip an injector to a rail - I have a few different ones I might be able to scrounge up and photograph - but you'd probably need a "cap" of some kind that would accept such a clip, with a threaded connection on the other end.

And the manifold has to go somewhere too. This means fabricating something to hold it like the bracket that holds my regulator.

Other than that it would work great, and probably use about the same amount of hose that I used. Probably a few extra fittings though - you'd be adding twelve for the injectors (one for each end of the hose) but you'd be eliminating the Y block and duplicated plumbing that I used. I figure 27 total fittings not counting the manifold itself or the plumbing for a regulator.

Definitely worth considering. I think the manifold would almost have to be custom made, though.

(Also, d'oh! "Fit is so tight", not "fight is so tight" in my previous post. Whoops.)

[AdmiralSenn]

Do we know of anyone running a wet, stock manifold, carb or EFI?

I forgot to add that there is someone using a factory manifold with injector bungs added into it - the rails sit between the plenum boxes. There were pictures on the .com archive, they may have been a member too. Not sure. I want to say that Martin supplied the pictures but I could be way off.

I don't remember how they handled air intake though.

[dmc6960]

I first posted that picture to DMCTalk.com, but the original credit goes to Cineman. It was in either an Alpine or a custom built racer. There was a throttle body attached directly to each plenum. The engine suffered a fire, I think during a race. I don't remember if it's been rebuilt since.

[Spittybug]

Adam, where did you get that "Rice a Roni" air intake tube? I'm having a hell of a hard time finding a rubber elbow that would do the job. Yours looks like it works!

[AdmiralSenn]

Adam, where did you get that "Rice a Roni" air intake tube? I'm having a hell of a hard time finding a rubber elbow that would do the job. Yours looks like it works!

Believe me I struggled for EVER to nail down a solution to that problem - I went through about five iterations of my intake before I got one that actually seals and doesn't fall out when you look at it funny.

There's a brand of cheap "tuner" products catering to, for lack of a better word, "ricers" - dudes with old Civics and coffee can exhaust tips. The product line is called Spectre, they're sold at Autozone and Advance Auto Parts, and probably O'Reilly's as well. (I guess this makes my car a potato ricer. :cool1:) Note that most of these places won't order Spectre stuff for you, so if they're out of stock I'd look on eBay.

The tube is regular air intake hose - identical in every way to the "cold air intake" the regular vendors sell, only it seems to be a little longer (at least the one I bought from a vendor was definitely shorter than the one I had installed before the fire). It comes with an extra adapter piece in the box that may come in handy when attaching it to a filter - see below.

Now then. the piece I used to adapt it to the rubber on the throttle bodies is a 3" to 2.5" intake pipe reducer - same brand as the hose and air filter. I did have to cut a few rings of material off the small end of the reducer to make it fit without touching the butterflies, and I also had to trim the flexible hose to keep it from flopping all over the engine bay - it's pretty long for this application, but you'll want that extra length to connect certain pieces later.

The chrome piece is ALSO a Spectre part (and optional, but still useful), but I had to special order it - it's not always in the stores. It's a vacuum tube adapter, used to add things like idle air intake and air temperature sensors after the filter. I also needed a kit of the various size nipples that fit in the adapter, which I also had to order - again, your selection may differ. From the reducer to the vacuum adapter I just have a piece of the same flexible tubing between the parts. The tubing is designed to fit inside certain Spectre products and make a seal without really needing a clamp, though I would recommend one anyway.

Spectre part numbers:
Flexible Intake Hose (black) - 8741, mine came with part 8147 for attaching to a filter
Reducer - 8751 (there is also a part 87511 that appears to be identical but made of a different material)
Vacuum fittings - 9713
Vacuum sensor adapter - 8707
Air Filter - 9132

I do have a clamp set and an adapter of some kind on the air filter as well but I am not entirely sure which parts they are, and those will be dependent on the type of filter and individual preference anyway - and it's not as if EVERY SINGLE PIECE has to be from this brand, it just makes it a little easier for a one-stop shopping trip if you don't happen to have things like 3" band clamps laying around.

The filter setup is a 3" hose to a 3" filter, with a plastic gray piece that makes the hose slip into the filter (provided with the flexible hose), and a 3" ID tube with clamps over them securing the whole thing - it's a tight fit.

I also intend to buy at least some of their brackets - 8701, 9402 and/or 9701 - to make the flexible hose stay EXACTLY where I want it, and also to put positive pressure on the reducer to make 100% sure it doesn't move. It's stuck in there so tightly that it's not going to pop out unless I really pull on it, but I don't like leaving things unsecured. I may also replace the flexible hose with a solid tube later if I can either find it in another finish, cover it, or convince myself to tolerate that much faux chrome in my engine bay (probably never going to happen!).

Of course this is all to hook the hose and filter up to a standard K-Jet manifold, but they make a TON of rubber and PVC and silicone elbows, adapters, and so on that come in super handy for jobs like this of any type - might even help with the 604 or OEM EFI manifold installations.

(Incidentally, this seems as good a time as any to mention that I have a gutted K-Jet mixture box if someone wants it for measurements or experimental fiddling. The unnecessary (for EFI) holes have been clumsily sealed off with some form of gasket making material but I did use this on my car for a good while and as far as I know it didn't leak. Really just want it and its component parts (I still have the guts) out of my garage.)

[cineman]

I first posted that picture to DMCTalk.com, but the original credit goes to Cineman. It was in either an Alpine or a custom built racer. There was a throttle body attached directly to each plenum. The engine suffered a fire, I think during a race. I don't remember if it's been rebuilt since.

here it is:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Axp26YSAB0k/S03_tyxHxnI/AAAAAAAAFwI/y_AT0BW_Wag/s576/IMG_7221%252520s.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OD_bfVl6BjY/S03_lCEA7pI/AAAAAAAAFvQ/83AreHCPkPk/s576/20%252520Jan%25252004.JPG

you can find lot other photos in my picasa collection
https://picasaweb.google.com/cinemanvero

[Spittybug]

here it is:
you can find lot other photos in my picasa collection
https://picasaweb.google.com/cinemanvero

For anyone that hasn't checked out Cineman's picture collection, DO SO! What a great source of "been there done that" photos to help you see how to do things or how things are supposed to look. Some of those turbo engine shots are awesome!

[AdmiralSenn]

I ran mine directly to the battery negative terminal (this was before my ground bus upgrade). I figured that this method meant WAY fewer possible problems with grounds later. So far I've been unplagued by that particular problem.

I just ran a bundle of wires behind the parcel shelf so it's out of the way. Pretty easy to do.

[cineman]

For anyone that hasn't checked out Cineman's picture collection, DO SO! What a great source of "been there done that" photos to help you see how to do things or how things are supposed to look. Some of those turbo engine shots are awesome!

Thanks ;) I'm running my 3rd engine now in my car, a 3.0lt efi PRV twin turbo based on a renault Safrane twinturbo and Alpine GTA engine parts... in some weeks i will have a quite final setup to show... ;)

[Spittybug]

Some good news. I've been picking brains over at the Megasquirt site and it looks like we can forgo the throttle position sensor with minimal issue. The primary fueling algorithm uses the manifold pressure (MAP) not the throttle position. Only in some cases like heavily modified cams would one contemplate using the Alpha_N algorithm. The other time that the TPS data is used is for the acceleration enhancement feature. This too has the ability to look at the rate of change in MAP or rate of change in throttle position. It has been my experience to date that the TPS is more difficult to dial in than the MAP and wouldn't be missed. Lastly, the TPS is used to detect when the throttle is wide open at start, indicating a flood clear. This can be accomplished in an alternate manner, but is a minor issue for a fully configured car in any case.

So, I'm working on the idle air block and the fuel rail hold down mechanism. The stock air deflector plate comes off with one screw, but ultimately I'd like to get a flexible air duct to connect the intake of the throttle body to the underside of the stock air cleaner and get the whole K-Jet fuel assembly (and its weight) out of the car. It's looking like mating to the throttle body is a bit of a challenge that will require crafting a bolt on flange which an intake hose can be connected to.

Having everything off the car and on the bench to play with angles and visualize things from different sides really helps. Stay tuned.

[AdmiralSenn]

Have you considered mating the adapter I use with a 90 degree bend? I don't recall the diameter of the original air cleaner (never had one on my car) but it seems like finding a rubber piece to do that would be fairly trivial.

[Spittybug]

Have you considered mating the adapter I use with a 90 degree bend? I don't recall the diameter of the original air cleaner (never had one on my car) but it seems like finding a rubber piece to do that would be fairly trivial.

With that funny rubber flange we have on the intake side of the throttle body, getting a good, reliable seal is a challenge. Making an aluminum mating plate or maybe even making a plaster cast and using it to make custom rubber boots are ideas I'm considering. This wouldn't be a problem if the face of the throttle body had a lip (like most throttle bodies) over which a boot or tube could be attached.

I took a 4" PVC union coupling and using my lathe, reduced the diameter by enough so that it fits snugly inside the bottom of the air cleaner. Also provides a place to drill a hole for the air temp sensor to sit in. I don't know if I'm on the right track with that or not.

[Spittybug]

Well today I was able to stretch a 3" flexible PVC coupling over the oval flange that sits between the throttle body and the fuel unit. I made 4 slices for the the mounting tabs to stick out and had to put it in boiling water to soften it. Not good. Even though I got it on there and it was acceptably tight fitting, when the whole assembly went back in place the downward angle of the throttle body made the rubber boot squeeze up against the bottom of the manifold. Nothing would be able to mate to it.

Unless a custom (fiberglass?) air tube can be fabricated to mimic the fuel unit's profile to connect the throttle body to the stock air filter, the solution will need to be simply removing the air deflection plate but leaving the fuel unit on board. Not ideal, but I'm really having a problem with the confined space, sharp direction change and lack of good mating surfaces.

That was, of course, after watching my daughter's school, OU, kick the crap out of arch rivals Texas in the Red River Football Shootout today. There is a perverse satisfaction wearing my OU shirt here in Houston!

[Spittybug]

I don't have a CNC machine or the know-how if I did. I'm therefore relegated to making my prototypes in wood. My buddy Al that is the CNC genius is laid up for a few weeks recovering from a heart valve transplant, but he's on board with turning these into aluminum prototypes once he's up and about.

The idle air control valve and seat are the critical items here. In the pictures you can see a stock GM idle valve in a retracted and extended state (connected to my car to extend it -goes to the seated position first, then backs off a designated amount depending on temperature before slowly moving towards seating again and blocking the extra idle air). This sits in the grey block which has a conical shaped hole that then exits out the other side through a straight hole. As the "pintle" moves in and out of the cone, it blocks or allows air to flow past it. You can see the whole block then mounted on the W pipe on top of the access holes that go into each pipe. In this mockup the blue hose would be supplying air from the air cleaner, into the block, past the pintle and down into the W pipe. The Megasquirt controller opens and closes the idle valve based on coolant temperature and is 100% configurable. I'm sure the final version can be made a bit more streamlined that this prototype, but hey, it works! With the air cleaner off you can also see a prototype of an adapter ring to replace the one between the fuel unit and the throttle body. This one has a rubber adapter slid into it and the other end of the rubber adapter would then be attached to a flexible air hose and to an inline air filter (mine is in the passenger pontoon). One could always use the stock fuel unit and the stock air cleaner, but I was looking for a clean way to get rid of them for weight and aesthetics.

Next I will get a couple of fuel rails and figure out a mounting bracket so that the rails can be securely mounted to the rectangular tubes of the stock manifold.

[Spittybug]

I suppose this shot would have been helpful to see how the air actually gets past the pintle and down into the W pipe....

[AdmiralSenn]

I will buy one of these if you have them made. This is basically what I've been trying to figure out on my own without access to the fancy machinery. Awesome!

[Spittybug]

My car is already converted to EFI, both fuel and spark being handled by Megasquirt. Many people have expressed interest in going EFI to replace aging K-Jet but don't want to reinvent the wheel with a custom setup. Since I have the luxury of the stock manifold sitting on the workbench I am trying to come up with components that could be produced or sourced that would allow any user to reversibly go EFI without needing to buy a donor manifold, figure out all the setup themselves, etc. A "standard" configuration, both hardware and software wise that can be done in a cost competitive fashion.

[Spittybug]

Link to discussion on merits of stock idle air controller versus a stepper idle air controller (IAC) controlled by Megasquirt. http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2080-Opethmike-Z7U-manifold-custom-conversion&p=27532&viewfull=1#post27532

[Spittybug]

I just got back from Halloween night Nifty Fiftees car show here in Houston. Great event. Several of the Delorean Texas club guys were there and we had a total of 6 cars. Always the hit of the party. In fact, technically we shouldn't be allowed to attend since it is for cars older than 1980, but they bend the rules for us.

Anyway, got a chance to look at couple of stock setups again (haven't seen that in a while) and re familiarized myself with just how tight things are. The problem with keeping the stock idle air motor is with the solid pipe that feeds the air down into the base of the manifold; it totally blocks the path that the fuel rail must follow. Since one of my objectives is to use rails rather than hoses, clamps and a header, this would be a deal breaker unless an alternate air pipe were fabricated. Given that fact, I'm back to just going with an easy to produce idle air valve/block assembly like previously discussed. I think a fuel rail would fit under the air cleaner, but I'm not positive. My preference is to lose that thing too and simply go with a rectangular K&N filter in the center space of the manifold or in the pontoon and piped.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It that GM ISM a linear device? It may just be an open and close device that needs to be modulated. Would be interesting to test it with my new idle ECU to see if it would work better.

[Spittybug]

It that GM ISM a linear device? It may just be an open and close device that needs to be modulated. Would be interesting to test it with my new idle ECU to see if it would work better.

Dave;
There seem to be countless ways to achieve this, some simple open/closed, some variable. The MS unit has the on-board ability to modulate as necessary to control the very available, small profile, inexpensive GM idle air valve. It has all of the code written to allow the user to change the performance of the device; how many steps to seat it, how many steps to back off for cold operation, how quickly to close up again. Very nice control.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/Idle_Control.html
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/IAC.htm

The second link really goes into detail on the mechanicals of the stepper, the first details the software's closed loop functions.

Even for those that choose not to go EFI, this may prove to be something to upgrade the car with given the correct feedback and control (read as Bitsyncmaster magic!).

[nkemp]

I just got back from Halloween night Nifty Fiftees car show here in Houston. ... In fact, technically we shouldn't be allowed to attend since it is for cars older than 1980, but they bend the rules for us.

We have a "back to the 50's" car show with thousands of cars & I think the cutoff is 64. I figure that any car featured in a movie placed in the 50's should be able to show. But I've not tried it yet:-)

But back on topic ... does anyone know if the 3.0 fuel rail & injectors fit the D's manifold config. One could assume that the spacing is the same. By eyeballing it it appears the spacing is the same. No idea about the injector fit.

[vwdmc16]

yes 3.0 injectors and rails fit nicely in a k jet 2.8

[Spittybug]

Progress.

Idle air block has been made in aluminum and blueprinted. Stock GM IAC valve. Blank off the stock hole in the bottom of the manifold where the idle air/cold start fuel come in.

Fuel rails/injector combo is now being sized to fit below airbox and to the side of the boxy side rails of the stock manifold. Looks like they will fit; just have to determine best fastening method.

No throttle position sensor needed, the MAP sensor can control the acceleration enhancement. Water temp sensor in either Y pipe or thermostat housing. Air sensor into the air box, air hose or otherwise mounted in free air. I've noticed that where I have mine mounted (in face of my aluminum air intake box) isn't optimal. Too much engine heat soaks into it after shutdown. It is therefore of the belief that incoming air is much hotter than it really is. I will be relocating mine.

We're getting closer and closer to the full prototype and then maybe kits ...... stay tuned.

[opethmike]

Cool stuff, Owen.

[Spittybug]

Nope. They fit remarkably well. Depending on o-ring tolerances you may have to gently tap them in with a piece of wood but mine pop in exactly as tightly as the old K-jet units did.

Adam, do you have any clearance issue with the forward mounting bolt of the A/C compressor and the driver side fuel rail? It looks tight when eyeballing it.

[AdmiralSenn]

Yeah. Serious issues. I had to reverse the bracket and I think I may have removed one of the bolts to make it all work. Sorry I forgot to mention that - I am a poor EFI evangelist.

Specifically the fuel rail and injectors fit fine, but the connector for the #6 injector runs right into the mounting bracket for the compressor. I've been trying to figure out a better way to solve that problem. One way would be to use a different fuel rail design that lifts the body of the rail up, so the injector can be pointed forwards or backwards. Alternately, different injectors, or a redesigned bracket might work.

[The Aviator]

Spotty what happened to ur efi setup with the fabbed aluminum intake elbow and peugeot intake?

Why are u converting the stock upper intake?

[opethmike]

He isn't converting his set-up. He is working on designing an EFI set-up that will integrate into the stock manifold with a minimum of fuss. Developing a "kit", if you will.

[Spittybug]

OK ladies and gentlemen, the fun has begun. Lazabby (Shannon) has started his voyage towards EFI. 3 Delorean owners and a friend ripped off his manifold and all K-Jet stuff to get down to the valley. He will be cleaning it out and POR-15ing it over the next few days. The fuel fittings, hose and megasquirt have arrived in the mail. As soon as the fuel rails arrive I will be getting them drilled out for the injectors and the test fitting can begin. I already have his idle air control block machined (see previous posts) and the fuse bank and relays have all been built as a "drop in" unit to connect to the RPM relay socket. We worked carefully and used PB blaster. No issue removing the Y pipe bolts nor the fuel fitting connection on the return line; two common areas for difficulty.

He will be documenting the process so that others can follow suit. We hope to provide both step by step instructions as well as a vetted list of components to make this a readily do-able conversion. Wish us all luck as we charge full speed ahead!

[The Aviator]

He isn't converting his set-up. He is working on designing an EFI set-up that will integrate into the stock manifold with a minimum of fuss. Developing a "kit", if you will.

Ok I thought that was the deal lol thanks

Spitty any idea on how much all the mega squirt stuff costs to covert a car? And what are u doing for ignition trigger wheels? Well.... Since ur keeping the distributor u won't need a trigger wheel correct?

[Spittybug]

1/27/12 Status. Fuel rails were measured up and drilled yesterday. We're using 48mm injectors to keep the profile low. Dry fit shows that the rails will not interfere with the forward A/C bracket. I've designed the fuel system to use AN6 fittings, flared for hose connections and O-ringed for connection to rails and regulator. We didn't have the right tap to thread the rails yesterday, so that will hopefully be resolved today. Measuring for the rail hold-downs will be a bit of a challenge, but I think we've got the right idea of how to do it.

Wiring harness from DIYautotune has been fitted with soldered on connectors and plugs for the various connections. I'll be testing & burning the initial tune into the controller later today.

We won't get done this weekend, but we may be able to at least dry fit the setup and get some wiring patched into the car. The fuse box/relay/power feed harness I built will plug right into the RPM relay socket and one additional (fused) connection to the battery (to eliminate issue of MS resets due to fuel pump motor noise).

We're blueprinting the various aluminum work so that we can reproduce them at will. My buddy Al is a retired machinist with all the cool toys in his garage to do all of this. I've told him that there are a lot of folks that have expressed interest in a "EFI in a box" kit that would allow them to do it for themselves.

By PM rather than in this thread, would you let me know if you might be interested in one of these kits (assuming that the conversion of Shannon's car is successful of course) so that I could give Al some kind of heads up? No commitment at this point, just an indication of interest. Total cost on the prototype is coming in around ~$1,400. Any selling of K-Jet parts to recoup costs is up to you.

If you are remotely considering going this route, start NOW! Clean all your grounds, prepare for a valley clean out since you'll need to take off the manifold to properly install everything and do yourself a favor and make sure your fuse blades are lightly sandpapered (or replaced) to guarantee good conduction. I also found that a slim Dremmel grinding bit fits right into the female half of our bullet connectors. This makes for a really quick and easy cleaning of them too.

Our goal is for you to be able to install EFI in an afternoon. After the prototype we already have a second volunteer/buyer to convert his car. Maybe we'll do a time lapse and YouTube it?

[Spittybug]

1/30/12 Update We dry fit the manifold onto Shannon's car on Sunday. The fuel rails fit perfectly under the air cleaner and big long box sides of the manifold. The shorter injectors really helped. We made a couple of fittings changes (90 degree hose ends rather than straight - ordered) and then looked to see how to secure the rails. Oops. Plan "A" was to use the existing manifold bolts like mine does, but being that two of them are in line with 2 of the spark plug holes and would obstruct them, that wasn't going to work. Plan "B" has been prototyped and involves using existing holes in the cast manifold to attach aluminum bar that then drops down to hold the rails firm. We are in the process of getting all the dimensions right and the proper holes/notches drilled in them. No modification to existing manifold needed. Airbox still attaches fine.

Resolved:

Idle air block & controller
Fuel rail placement and tapping
Fuel rail mounting (75%)
Short fuel injectors with correct capacity
Wiring harnesses built and integrated into car - chose to tap straight from the battery for both fuel pump circuit and all others (MS, LC1, injectors) on separate circuits so that the fuel pump noise will be absorbed directly by battery. That and I have no idea how clean his contacts are in the fuse area!

Hoping for a SuperBowl Sunday mechanical completion. I have already burned my tune into his Megasquirt, so we ought to be pretty close out of the gate. Once idling has been achieved, we will change the jumpers on his MS board and disable his distributor's mechanical advance so that he is full EFI and timing control.

After his clean out of the valley, re installing the Y pipe and the other one in the valley took a while to get all leaks eliminated. Every step of the way we identified "while you're in there" items to replace. Welcome to modernizing a 30 year old car.

But, we are so close you can smell it!

[opethmike]

I'm loving following this thread! If this works out well, hopefully some people on the fence about EFI will go for it and purchase this kit style solution.

[AdmiralSenn]

Owen, do you have any use for a fuel injector drill bit? I don't need mine any more. Figured I'd ask before I throw it on ebay.

[lazabby]

I want to publicly thank Owen for all his hard work on this project. He is the genius driving this. I'm just offering my car as the sacrificial prototype. Our biggest hinderance has been my lack of available time to go full speed ahead as I have had a lot of other committments keeping me away from my house. We are making progress and several obstacles have been overcome. A big one was removing the old O2 sensor. Four different people tried their hand in getting it out and a fifth person finally succeeded. We'll be back on the project in about 1-1/2 weeks.

[opethmike]

Good luck with the rest of the project, Shannon, and welcome to the wonderful world of EFI!

[lazabby]

Good luck with the rest of the project, Shannon, and welcome to the wonderful world of EFI!

I'm excited about it. There is still a lot of work I need to do on my own. I'm taking pictures.

[Spittybug]

2/5/12 Update We only get to work on this car for a couple of hours every week or two, so anyone following along shouldn't get scared off by the length of the project. We are also having to measure, invent, discover clearance issues and of course, tackle the "while I'm in there" issues of Shannon's car.

Got the O2 sensor replaced (took 5 minutes after being able to actually get the old one unscrewed)
Mounted the brackets on the manifold, attached fuel rails with injectors in their holes and tighten all bolts down
Measured, cut and put fittings on hose from fuel filter to driver side rail
Measured, cut and put fittings on crossover fuel hose to passenger side rail
Decided to mount pressure gauge on the passenger side, right where crossover enters rail
No clearance issues with A/C bracket, sides of manifold or the air cleaner
Sealed original idle air hole in the base of the manifold with a 6mm bolt and a couple of fender washers
Power, fuel pump connection and grounds are already connected in car
MS unit has been burned with code
Coolant sensor put in Y pipe in place of vacuum switch
Wiring harness has been pulled through firewall, all plugs connected

Just need to finish the last fuel hose, remove the air plate, tap into the coil (-) circuit, plug it in and give it a shot! Still have to decide where to put the air temp sensor, but I think the cleanest idea is to just tap a small hole in the underside of the air cleaner (I know, violates my rule of non-reversible, but could always be plugged with a small rubber bung). In reality we'll probably also clean up the now 75% unnecessary wiring harness in the engine bay, remove the ballast resistors and some of the other crap on the firewall and reroute some of the big wiring to the alternator, starter and jump post, but those aren't mandatory to get a start up.

PS. AdmiralSenn is now an official member of the EFI design crew with his sharing of his step form drill bit to make easier work of drilling the fuel injector holes in the rails. Thanks!

[AdmiralSenn]

Don't forget being fuel rail guinea pig and supplier of a good list of things not to do! :elmo1:

[Spittybug]

This last week we drilled a second set of fuel rails for the second conversion car. He's already got the manifold out and is replacing hoses. The drill bit provided by AdmiralSenn is a real time saver on the machining. We modified the IAC block slightly and the brackets are now finalized.

A few people have asked why we don't just use the stock idle air controller and all of its controls. The major reason is the air pipe obstructs the path that the driver side fuel rail must occupy. Sure, we could rig it with hose instead and mill up an adapter to fit the hole in the bottom of the manifold so that it could reconnect, but at the end of the day you would still have a 30+ year unit that uses a lot of wires and a discreet ECU. One of the benefits of the MS units are their ability to control a 4 wire stepper IAC by itself. The engine bay is much cleaner as a result as well.

We are *hopefully* finishing up this afternoon. We'll be keeping our fingers crossed that Shannon's car doesn't have other issues that will thwart us......

[Spittybug]

2/19/11 Update Aarrggh, in the words of Charlie Brown. I think we are mechanically complete, but didn't get to test before calling it a day. It's the little things (non MS related) that get you and sap you of your energy.... Today we discovered that one of Shannon's spark plugs was cross threaded (3 years maybe?) and was a good 1/4" to 1/2" from being fully inserted. You wanna bet that was a source of some of his issues? Found his pair of micro switches (automatic transmission knock down and WOT) were so loosely mounted that they weren't functional. Found that one of our fuel fittings (to go into the return line fitting) was somehow a hair over sized and had to be coerced. Ian's fit in his just fine....

On the fuel rail fitment we found that it is tight, but OK. One has to be careful in the attaching of the rails, clearing the injector pigtails and leaving room to get the spark plug boots on. Of course too we learned which fittings should be tightened before mounting on the car and which ones can be done after, etc. Design wise I probably need to get rid of Allen screw heads and go with hex for easier install.

As mentioned previously, a plus to this is the removal of the engine bay harness. The only wires you need after the fact are:

A/C compressor
H20 gauge
Oil light
Oil gauge
Alternator small wire
Starter small wire (or is it 2?)
Automatic transmission kick down (if automatic)

I am going to run new wires (old harness in tough shape) with polyester looming to each of these. The bulkhead ends will end in female bullets that will simply slip onto the male counterparts in the bulkhead. We are also getting rid of those cursed ganged brown wires and replacing them with a 12V+ bus bar which also serves as jump post:

To battery
To car 12V+ lug in bulkhead box
To alternator
To starter

So you see, it isn't the EFI that takes the time, it's fixing everything around it that does!

[AdmiralSenn]

Still faster than my conversion! You're approaching sane "install and drive" time levels - I think that with your custom parts completed you should have no problem doing a one-day tear down and EFI conversion.

I'm wondering if you would consider building a 2-wire IAC block like I mentioned in my PM. I'll see if I can draw it up in CAD to explain it better. It'd be a nice option for those of us loonies like me who want to reuse those IAC outputs. Basically it'd just be a block with a 19mm tube welded in and a couple of threaded holes for hose nipples.

Incidentally, where are you piping in the oil filler breather and charcoal canister lines?

[Spittybug]

I'm wondering if you would consider building a 2-wire IAC block like I mentioned in my PM. I'll see if I can draw it up in CAD to explain it better. It'd be a nice option for those of us loonies like me who want to reuse those IAC outputs. Basically it'd just be a block with a 19mm tube welded in and a couple of threaded holes for hose nipples.

Incidentally, where are you piping in the oil filler breather and charcoal canister lines?

Send me a sketch with dimensions and let me look.

The "trigger" vacuum line off the throttle body is still intact. Both the canister purge and the oil filler breather originally went down into the manifold via the copper pipe that the cold start injector sat on. It sees manifold vacuum therefore. That means we can attach it to one of the vacuum nipples on the back of the manifold or, with some attachment, to the now-blanked off hole in the base of the manifold where the copper pipe attached. For first start I wasn't going to worry about it, but longer term I need to decide. Thanks for reminding me!

[Spittybug]

It's been a while since I revisited the stock setup. Someone please correct me if I don't have this right.

The "pipe of agony" that exits the side of the fuel distributor base assembly sees filtered air from the air cleaner after it has entered the fuel unit past the air deflection plate. This provides clean air for the idle air controller on the other end of the pipe of agony. This air is metered based on the idle air valve and goes into the side of the vertical copper pipe that the cold start injector sits on. The two restricted nozzles on the side of this copper pipe connect to the charcoal canister and the oil filler purge line. All of these are sucked into the base of the manifold and into the cylinders, bypassing the throttle plates. Note that the line from the oil fill (crank case) comes through the cap, but the other hose on the cap is fresh air feed from the air cleaner (PRE AIR DEFLECTION PLATE). This means that the size of the restrictive orifice on the vertical copper pipe is important in determining how much air is sucked into the manifold as idle air. The carbon canister is only open to the gas tank and not free air.

Since the ultimate source of this idle air is POST air deflector plate, the K-Jet system has "accounted for it" as it went past the air plate and provided fuel. What does it matter whether the air went through the throttle blades or around them since it was already metered? It is my assumption that the mixture screw that many seem to want to tweak is actually the means by which K-jet "zeros out" the volume of this idle air. It is set so that any deflection of the plate with the butterflies closed (ie, idle air only), results in the ~stoich quantity of fuel being supplied. Other components then readjust the fuel requirements for cold start or cold acceleration by changing the pressure going to injectors or firing the cold start injector. Am I getting this right? There must have been some good drugs being passed around at Bosch when they invented this......

So, to complete our stock conversion, we must blank off the pipe of agony hole since it would allow unfiltered air through it. It wouldn't affect the performance since it is upstream from the throttle blades, but we don't want dirt and crap getting in. We also need to provide a connection for the purge lines from the oil fill and the carbon canister to be drawn into the manifold; either tapping one of the nipples on the back or via the hole in the bottom. Megasquirt can easily learn what the right amount of fuel to inject is based on the available air at idle. After that, fuel requirement is a function of manifold vacuum and engine RPM; both sensed.

My head hurts after that.

[AdmiralSenn]

Here's a very rough sketch of what I'm talking about. Unfortunately my old idle air tube is missing and I don't have my CAD software installed any more, but hopefully this is clear enough.

8556

Basically you'd take the shape of the closing plate you removed to make your block, extrude it up, and cut a deep hole in the bottom to make the main air passage. Then you'd cut another hole in from the side using a mill, offset from the center line, to make the air passage for the idle motor. Then weld in a 3/4" or 19mm pipe in the hole. The hole would just need to intersect the main bore enough to permit some air passage, it doesn't need to be a huge roaring chasm.

The other two holes would be drilled in at an angle perpendicular to the angled face of the shape, through to the main air passage. Then you'd use a mill to cut in a straight hole, then tap it for 1/8 NPT for the calibrated nipples.

Kind of complicated to make but I think it'd work nicely for a 2-wire setup, and might be adaptable for a 4-wire without too much work. This setup would also allow you the option of using the factory idle motor.

I'll try to draw this up in Solidworks when I'm at class tomorrow and see if I can't explain it better.

[Spittybug]

Hard to read the text since it is so small, even when saved and zoomed. I'll wait for the next version, but welding is tricky on that kind of stuff.

I've already solved the stock vacuum port need; right behind the W pipe (horns) in the side of the manifold there are two threaded ports with plugs in them right now. Miraculously the two brass restriction nipples originally found in the idle air pipe leading to the cold start injector/manifold center fit in them perfectly. One in each side and connect the hoses from the oil filler and the charcoal canister. I can't believe that the additional air volume or hydrocarbon gasses are sufficient to make one side of the engine perform materially different than the other, but if that is found to be the case, MS can compensate by adjusting some parameters between the 2 banks of injectors if you have them wired by side of engine (which I do, 1,2,3 & 4,5,6).

:D That never happens.

[dmc6960]

My head hurts after that.

My head feels fine. You got it down pretty much spot on. An expandable rubber plug should be sufficient to plug the Pipe of Agony hole in the Air Mixture Unit...

http://www.lifeasbob.com/content/binary/Expansion_Plug_neoprene_rubber.jpg

[AdmiralSenn]

Sorry about that, the forum resized it for some reason.

http://i.imgur.com/ECRJv.png

This would require a single bead around the outside, fairly small but not too hard, I don't think.

Of course if those ports work then really I just need to make a 90 degree 19mm or 3/4 adapter and be done with it. I may just try those ports and tell you what happens; I've been meaning to pipe in the oil filler cap anyway.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Sorry about that, the forum resized it for some reason.

http://i.imgur.com/ECRJv.png

This would require a single bead around the outside, fairly small but not too hard, I don't think.

Of course if those ports work then really I just need to make a 90 degree 19mm or 3/4 adapter and be done with it. I may just try those ports and tell you what happens; I've been meaning to pipe in the oil filler cap anyway.

I tried to pipe the hose that goes to the filler to the passenger side valve cover. I wanted to get true crankcase ventilation. What it did was cause a lot of smoke every time I started it. So you need a good oil trap on anything you pipe to the vacuum.

[Spittybug]

You lost me there Dave..... The stock setup has the oil filler hole (crank vent) being drawn down the copper pipe into the base of the manifold. What difference does it make if it goes into the side of the manifold instead? Same vacuum. I do believe the restricted orifice is very important however. Without it maybe it pulls in liquid as well as vapor?

[Bitsyncmaster]

You lost me there Dave..... The stock setup has the oil filler hole (crank vent) being drawn down the copper pipe into the base of the manifold. What difference does it make if it goes into the side of the manifold instead? Same vacuum. I do believe the restricted orifice is very important however. Without it maybe it pulls in liquid as well as vapor?

I was thinking to draw the vapor better than what stock had. So pulling from the other side should have done that. But it would need a real good oil seperater.

My stock hose (blue silicone) even draws a little oil. I can tell from the discolor of the hose. I've seen this on many other owners cars also.

[Farrar]

My stock hose (blue silicone) even draws a little oil. I can tell from the discolor of the hose.

I noticed that on my car as well. I assume there's nothing wrong with that, right?

[Spittybug]

A little oil isn't a problem.... too much and you make a real mess on the intake ports, valve stems, etc. I'm not sure there is a need to pull more vapor out than stock. In fact, I would think that "pull" is not even necessary, rather just letting it escape from the crank case. In a perfect world there wouldn't be any vapor other than the little bit that comes off hot oil in the sump. In reality of course there is ring, valve guide and gasket leakage too though, right? So long as these can get out in a controlled manner and not have to force their way out (up dipsticks, past gaskets...) that is the objective. What benefit does anyone see to pulling harder to get more out?

[dmc6960]

I have my crankcase vent Tee'd into the vacuum line for the charcoal canister. I can't say I've ever really been burning any oil in the two years I've had that setup. I've also never pulled the hose to see whats going through it. If I remember I'll do that when I get home today and report back. I did keep the calibrated nipples from the CSV tube, but I haven't implemented them in my setup at all.

[Ron]

What benefit does anyone see to pulling harder to get more out?Pulling harder than the stock setup is one thing, but you don't want blow-by 'lingering' in the crankcase because the unburnt fuel and other contaminates will break down the oil and sludge up the engine (particularly throughout the venting system).

FWIW, If you are going to charge the intake on a street vehicle, a PCV system, versus an orifice, is the way to go since it can maintain the proper 'balance' of pressure, but you can't just add a PCV valve...the vent system has to be set up for the engine (IE not generic) and have a route to handle excess pressure at high RPMs...

[Squall67584]

Any updates? While I don't own a D yet, I'd be wanting to go this route!

[Spittybug]

Well, we did have to move one wire from coil (+) to coil (-), but FIRST FRIGGIN CRANK, it started right up and ran smooth as silk!!!!! (this never happens to me, so I'm counting my blessings right now)

Now the bad news. It looks like we've got an issue with the LC-1 air fuel sensor. I'm hoping it is a simple wire swap (output 1 versus output 2), but it never gave us a good 20.9 O2 reading on calibration. After running nicely for 10 minutes or so, seeing the warmup period close (idle air valve closing) and really no "hunting" at idle, we shut it down. It wouldn't restart; wayyyyy to rich by the smell of things. I'm assuming it is the air/fuel sensor issue which I think we've identified and will correct.

BUT, we proven SUPER NICE idle using stock setup. Once we resolve AFR issue, we will pull dizzy, lock it down and go full EFI.

[lazabby]

I've been holding back commenting on the EFI conversion on my car that Spittybug (genius extraordinaire) has been working on. As he mentioned in the previous post we started the car yesterday and it sounded very good. The car has been sitting for several weeks as we worked on the conversion and I was concerned about the gas having gone bad over that time such as water in the tank or gas degradation. But when Owen hit the key it started with no hesitation or hunt. There were a lot of smiling faces.

I had been interested in doing the EFI conversion for several months. I kicked around the idea for a long time and finally decided to take the plunge.

There has been some discussion in the community for some time as to how the stock Delorean engine could be converted to EFI. Owen did his and the pictures show how beautiful the engine looks. Then the question was raised on how to convert the engine while retaining the existing manifold and airbox. Two of us in the area decided to take on the task of doing the conversion.

One rule of thumb is to expect the unexpected. We had several issues and problems that popped up that had to be addressed. Little problems keep coming up that slow things down. The conversion has taken longer than expected, mostly due to my schedule. We had another problem with the O2 sensor. After 30 years it was fairly welded in the socket. Plus the space to work in is very limited. I spent days soaking the socket with every penetrating oil I had. Four people tried their hand in getting the sensor loose. Finally the fifth person got it out. Anyone want to buy a used O2 sensor with that's been mangled?

The first day was spent removing most of the various unneeded parts. I now have a box full of hoses, valves, etc. The engine looks much simpler than before. I removed the fuel distributor and plugged the hole with a half-dollar sized medallion. Another hole below the FD where a tube went in was quarter sized and a quarter fits perfectly in it. It's sealed with gasket sealant.

I also had to take care of a transmission fluid leak which may have been a blessing in disguise. I was able to use the rubber gasket from an otterstat valve to fit on the end of the filler tube. It appears to be holding very nicely.

I can't say enough for the hard work put in by Owen and fellow Delorean owner Ian. Their expertise and knowledge has been what has made the conversion possible. It has also been rewarding just to get together to "talk shop".

More later.

[opethmike]

Shannon (right?),

You're going to love your EFI conversion when it is done. Even when my engine was stock, it made a nice difference. A bit more responsive throughout the rev range, easier to start, a little bit better mpg, etc.

Can't wait to hear what you think after driving it for a few weeks.

-Mike

[lazabby]

To Mike - I'm sure I will love it. I'm glad to have a minor involvement in contributing to the body of knowledge of Delorean EFI conversion. There are several people interested in this project and its outcome. I think it will encourage others to make the plunge.

There are still housekeeping issues to be done. Right now we're concentrating getting the car up and running. Afterwards there will be cleaning up to do. I'll need to tie up hoses and wiring in the engine and behind the car seats.

During this project there have been "take of this while you're there". When we removed the manifold, I cleaned up the VOD and applied the POR-15. We removed the old wiring harness and Owen made a new one. I installed a bus bar next to the bulkhead and now I have the battery cable, alternator cable, starter cable and cable to bulkhead attached to it. One thing I should have done but didn't due to lack of time was replace some of the old water hoses in the back of the engine. With all the old stuff take out it's much easier to access. If needed, the manifold will come off much easier now.
Shannon

[lazabby]

Update from last night. We had an issue with the O2 sensor not calibrating properly. From instructions given to me, I switched a couple of wires. It appears that we were running on a wire causing the LC-1 unit to act as a narrow band sensor. After the switch, the program read 19+ free air and after installation of the sensor and starting the engine, it was reading 14+ AFR. Good news.

[Henrik]

Megasquirt fuel & spark control and loving it. Ask me and I'd be happy to help you do the same.

So you're taking orders for EFI conversions...? Houston is not too far from Dallas...

[lazabby]

So you're taking orders for EFI conversions...? Houston is not too far from Dallas...

We've learned a lot with my conversion. I think Owen just about has all the bugs worked out. Don't know if he's taking orders or not. But it definitely seems worth it.

[opethmike]

Next logical step: heads, cams, exhaust :evil3::evil3::evil3:

[Spittybug]

I'll let Shannon chime in and upload some pictures of his finished product, but we drove it around today and used VE Analyze live to tune it a bit. It didn't need much at all; the base tune I provided from my car was fairly close. It starts RIGHT up, idles nice and evenly and drives without hiccups, backfires or other glitches. We still have it sitting at 14.1 air/fuel across the board and no acceleration enhancement yet, but driving it was fine. After addressing the above it will increase the performance even more.

Right now it is still using the distributor for timing (although vacuum is not connected, so that there would improve things a bit too) and must be adjusted to run full EFI spark as well as fuel. Shannon has the choice of going all-in or leaving the distributor in charge and we can simply put the vacuum solenoid back in place (easy) and have it controlled by Megasquirt (open/closed based on throttle and coolant temperature, just like the microswitch and thermovacuumthingy in the stock setup). I'm still playing around with my advance table but I think it is close enough to share at this point.

The second car, which wasn't going to undergo conversion until we proved the first, is also running, albeit with some odd problem that I can't associate with Megasquirt. Ian's manifold vacuum is not nearly as low as it should be (80 vs. 40ish on the MS load scale in kPa) and we're perplexed. We have confirmed with an analog gauge as well as MS. The unit responds to pulling a vacuum manually, so the MAP sensor isn't bad. OK, opening the butterflies (engine warm, idle air now off) increases the vacuum (indicating that it was just not getting any air and couldn't stay running) to where I would want it to be, but this is at >1500rpm. We can't get the combination of proper rpm and good low manifold vacuum. We have some suspicion about his stock distributor as we actually saw the amount of advance increasing as we brought the rpms down (WITHOUT the vacuum advance connected). Some odd stuff going on, but clearly mechanical in nature since megasquirt plays no role in the idle speed which is a function of the quantity of air coming in. One cannot tune anything fuel-wise until the idle is fixed. The rule of thumb is to set the idle where the manifold vacuum is at its strongest. We've got some head scratching to do here. Oh, at higher rpm and less engine manifold, it runs pretty nicely too!

So! Fuel rails, idle air block & valve, MS unit and an LC-1 controller all replacing K-jet and all of it's wiring and controls. Looks almost stock except for the idle air block. We learned tricks on the rail mounting angles, injector heights, fuel hose routing and all of the right fittings for a tight system. Who's next?
:rollin: :thumbup:

[lazabby]

Owen was right. It starts very nicely and runs very well. I plan to run it more later this week and let the Megasquirt work on the autotune. Here are a couple of pictures showing the fuel rails and injectors.

[AdmiralSenn]

Owen, did you ever find a way to handle a throttle position sensor? I know it's not necessary for a stock setup but I'd like to have one on mine for some future expansion work I'm planning out.

I saw a picture of one you had earlier that was on a stock throttle spool. Did that one work okay (and if so, what was it)? It looks like it was mounted better than my attempt.

[Spittybug]

Nope. Ditched it. The stock setup just isn't conducive to one; although Bitsnycmaster (Dave M.) suggested a pedal sensor. It really isn't needed. By using MAP based acceleration enhancement, or better yet, the enhanced acceleration enhancement (is that redundant?) that I'm currently learning about, the TPS sensor isn't required. Of course, if some enterprising individual were to figure one out, that is just cream on the dessert!

Of course, in the case of a very wild cam (not like mild stage II) there is difficulty in using vacuum based fueling algorithms because of the valve overlap. In that case the best course of action is throttle based fueling. THEN one would need a throttle sensor.

[opethmike]

Of course, in the case of a very wild cam (not like mild stage II) there is difficulty in using vacuum based fueling algorithms because of the valve overlap. In that case the best course of action is throttle based fueling. THEN one would need a throttle sensor.

As I have found out! :)

[Farrar]

Bitsnycmaster (Dave M.) suggested a pedal sensor.

This is what I would go with.

(...eventually...)

[dmc6960]

Huh? You "stock" folks aren't using a TPS? Even if your using MAP based AE, I think that may come back to bite you. What about attaching something to the top of the throttle spool. I saw that done by one of the first EFI'ers whom I dont remember his name or screen name.

[DARCOM]

That might be me with the tps on the spool.

[dmc6960]

That might be me with the tps on the spool.

Bingo! Your the one. Care to tell about yours for these folks?

[Henrik]

Who's next?
:rollin: :thumbup:

Me, maybe ...?

[Spittybug]

According to the Megasquirt boards, we shouldn't have any problem going without the TPS. It is only used for the throttle based acceleration enhancement and for alpha-n fueling algorithm which we aren't using. I have been using MAP acceleration exclusively for a while with no issue. I'm learning about the "adhere to wall" and "suck from wall" settings which actually eliminate the need for acceleration enhancement altogether.

Who knows, the Delorean manifold may be of sufficiently large volume that the performance of MAP based acceleration may be sub par. That's why we're prototyping; to find out! Shannon's car didn't seem to have any ill effect not having one. Once we make all of the minor adjustments to improve upon the base tune, we'll see.

Daryl, I too would at least like to see how you managed to get one mounted on the throttle spool. Got any pictures?

[AdmiralSenn]

I have one mounted I will photograph later tonight and post, but the sensor keeps dying and it wasn't the best installation.

Christine runs beautifully right now, but my specific installation is going to absolutely require a TPS soon, so I'm trying to figure this out.

[lazabby]

I thought I'd post a few more picture of my car. By the way, my car is an automatic. Don't know if any one else's EFI engine is an auto or not but to remove any doubts, it can be done to an auto. One of the pictures show the connectors to the fuel rail. You can see the dipstick for the automatic transmission fluid.

I had to clean up the VOD. There are before and after pictures.

I removed the fuel distributor and a friend had a medallion made that fit perfectly over the hole.

[DARCOM]

Here is a shot of my TPS. It's been on here just like this for over four years and kicking.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[Spittybug]

LOL... Adam, THIS may be an acceptable use of cable ties, but not on the fuel system!

Still helping Ian to get his MS up and running. Some weird stuff going on with fuel pump and injectors randomly kicking on and off. Grounds all good and common, 12v dedicated for fuel pump from battery, 12v for others from brown wire in RPM relay. Green wire from RPM relay provides switched 12v. We are now trouble shooting harness to make sure that nothing is shorting. Car won't start with either his MSII box or Shannon's, so that is what led us to checking wiring.....code is identical and has been reburned to ensure integrity. Next step will be to try Ian's box in Shannon's car.

I need to go look at what could possibly be interrupting the power from the RPM relay, either the brown or green. Time for the schematic.........

[AdmiralSenn]

Huh?

[Spittybug]

Didn't you torch the car because you were using cable ties to hold the fuel rails down? Or was that someone else?

[AdmiralSenn]

No... I "torched" the car, if that's the correct phrasing, because a fuel line split at a junction for no apparent reason - most likely a combination of cheap fuel line and inexperienced installation on my part, although there was so much damage that it wasn't really clear where the initial failure was or what started it. The rails were certainly not held down with cable ties.

I think I mentioned considering it once in passing - I did have a rail pop out from its hold down once, which may have been why I was hunting rather desperately for ways to secure them better - but I never actually tried it. For what it's worth, the fire had nothing to do with the rail design or its attachment system.

For that matter I'm not actually a huge fan of the cable tie on the TPS, although it admittedly has a far better track record than my installation - I have a bracket and weather shield on mine that are bolted in place. Why mine keep dying and Daryl's is still working is beyond me. :angry4:

[Spittybug]

Adam, thank goodness it was my faulty memory then!

Well yesterday we tried to go the last yard on Shannon's car. After running it again as fuel-only to make sure all was well, the guys tore off the manifold, rails, hoses etc. and proceeded to adjust the valve lash. Nothing major there, one or two need minor tightening but that was it. As the car was on TDC #1 for their last valve, it made dizzy work easy. 4 of us noted the rotor position relative to the case notch and the static advance slot. Dizzy was removed, weights tacked and reinserted to exactly the same position as it came out.

I made the two jumper position changes on the 3.57 surface mount MSII board as required, changed Tuner studio to "Basic Trigger" with 13* offset and used the advance table that I'm successfully using in my car. Connected the VR from the dizzy to the shielded input cable to MSII and connected the spark output wire to coil (-).

Cranked it, saw RPMs showing up on gauge (indicates VR input working), but alas, it wouldn't start. The composite log showed good tooth pattern, but the short cranking log showed a pretty high dwell value, (~14 instead of the value of 6 in the dialogue box). Tried a coil test and just a "jumping spark" test and we aren't getting one. It was late and we had to call it quits (and the battery was pretty dead - which in itself may have been the problem), but today is research day to figure out why no spark. I'm hoping it is simply something stupid that I forgot to do. We did make sure the coil was reconnected to (+) and confirmed all wires.

So very close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DARCOM]

My TPS was originaly taped and screwed into the plate that holds the TPS. But after a week they kept backing out. This was also in my testing faze when I was making change to it. But in a pinch I used wire ties because the bolts fell out and were lost. It's the only place I used ties but I'm impresed with how well they worked. With testing through the years on MS the TPS has not given me any problems so I figure if it ant broke don't fix it. But for apearences it did look better with bolts.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[Spittybug]

I failed to make a jumper connection for the spark output and will be soldering that on late this afternoon. The documentation for the 3.57 board isn't as clear as it is for the previous versions, so when we're done with our write-up, hopefully it will provide a very clear step by step set of instructions.

[AdmiralSenn]

Well, I hope you figure it out because I just ordered one of the two components I was missing to go full spark control. I'm counting on you for when my car inevitable does something baffling and crazy, such as working fine at 3:13 pm every Wednesday but at no other time or on any other day.

....... That hit too close to home. I made myself sad.

[Spittybug]

D'oh!! I also found out that the damned 3.57 board doesn't come pre-populated with the coil driver transistor! It's only $8.50, but what a PITA! My 3.0 board had it so I never questioned that this one wouldn't. Trying to figure out WHERE THE HELL the jumpers go to is a mess. Really poor documentation on this board. Being a surface mount board, the solder pads are virtually non-existent. This will need to be a careful solder once I get the transistors.

Good news however, Shannon's car started right up on fuel & spark using my MSII unit! That means all wiring and distributor outputs, etc are up to snuff! Now he can go in and shorten wires, clean up the tangle and otherwise make it look pretty.

[Farrar]

I am going to de-lurk for a moment to ask if this means that those of us who aren't good with electronics should buy the previous version of MegaSquirt, since the newer version seems more of a pain to get set up.

Thanks! I enjoy reading the progress here. :)

[opethmike]

Well Farrar, they're both MegaSquirt 2; the difference is in the board versions. The version 3 board is for assembly at home, and the version 3.57 comes as a pre-assembled, tested unit.

I'm not great with electronics either, so I bought the 3.57 and it has been fine for my fuel only set-up. According to the documentation, it is already set-up for ignition, so I'm not sure what the issue is there.

[dmc6960]

There are two current versions. a 3.0 board, which is a DIY through-hole board. You can buy these in kit form or pre-assembled. I did mine in kit-form. The other option is a 3.57 board, which is an SMD automated assembly line produced product. The 3.57 is great for the plug in and go type of person. The 3.0 is still superior to the tinkerer type.

[lazabby]

I am going to de-lurk for a moment to ask if this means that those of us who aren't good with electronics should buy the previous version of MegaSquirt, since the newer version seems more of a pain to get set up.

Thanks! I enjoy reading the progress here. :)

You can go to fuel only control with the as built MS but adding spark control means opening the box and making a few changes. I would advise going to EFI if you are interested. We're proving that it can be done with the stock engine and manifold. We started my car last night with Owen's MS unit contolling both fuel and spark. I had driven my car some with my box controlling the fuel with no problems. Changing it to control spark is the last step to going fully EFI. Now I just need to do the housekeeping with the wiring and clean the car from all the pollen on it.

[Farrar]

I would advise going to EFI if you are interested. We're proving that it can be done with the stock engine and manifold.

I would rather do it on the 3.0L, but I am just being patient. Thanks! :)

[dmc6960]

I would rather do it on the 3.0L, but I am just being patient. Thanks! :)

And if doing the 3.0L you'll need it to control spark as well. If your a tinkerer, I'd advise doing the v3.0 board or whatever equivalent is available when you do it.

[opethmike]

Point of semantics - can we please stop calling EFI + ignition control full EFI? EFI is merely electronic fuel injection; ergo, fuel control.

[Spittybug]

As Shannon pointed out, the prototype has been proven out. The issue I'm awaiting parts on is simple. The v3.57 board has surface mounted components and is therefore probably more vibration resistant and has better quality control. Whether you build your own board (I did, a v3.0) or buy a pre-built board, there are a TON of potential ignition systems that they can drive, so they can't all be pre-configured. We simply missed the fact that the pre-built v3.57 board needed you to also buy the $8.50 kit that contains the necessary transistor and insulator. Popping that into the correct slot, soldering a couple of pretty easy connections, and moving one of their existing jumper wires is all that is necessary. Simple once you realize that the board didn't have it in place as purchased!

Once we get it buttoned up and Shannon can really drive it and show it off, I'll try and not only get a step-by-step how-to written so that anyone can install one, but I'll also pull together a kit of the necessary customized parts and make that available. (Rails, idle block and brackets). I'm really hesitant to offer full kits however since everyone's car seems to be a little bit different and people have different desires on how to route wires, where to mount boxes, etc. Hopefully we can make the instructions so easy to follow that no matter what you want to do you will be able to clearly understand where things go. I've even documented the means to tack down the weights in the distributor to disable the mechanical advance (reversible with a Dremmel). We'll provide vendor names, part numbers and all that.

No two ways about it, you will learn A LOT about how your car functions and will demystify the inner workings of the fuel/spark system. It will boil down to a single box controlling both. There are a lot of helpful people who can help diagnose or fix Megasquirt issues while the K-Jet community shrinks everyday. By having the benefit of several other stock Deloreans and the work their owners have done to get really good tunes burned to their Megasquirts, once the hardware is installed you are basically ready to drive.

***IF***your car is in good working order (grounds clean, spark plugs good, O2 sensor not frozen in, distributor not sloppy, etc), the work that has been done to make these parts and get things right from a hardware point of view should allow for a one-day conversion, quite literally. Making pretty harnesses or really clean wiring bays can add time.....

We'll get Shannon (and Ian when we find out what about his CAR, not Megasquirt is holding him back), to post videos of the final products so that you can see with your own eyes.

[Farrar]

Any notion of how much it would cost for fuel control only? I would be willing to give EFI a chance on my current engine, depending on how much money I have to sink into it. I would be using Bill's low-profile intake manifold, but that wouldn't make any difference to the length of wires and hoses.

[opethmike]

Any notion of how much it would cost for fuel control only? I would be willing to give EFI a chance on my current engine, depending on how much money I have to sink into it. I would be using Bill's low-profile intake manifold, but that wouldn't make any difference to the length of wires and hoses.

That is going to vary widely, but to give you an idea, I spent about $1,700. But, I bought as much pre-assembled stuff as possible, and bought brand new, high impedance injectors, and an intake manifold from Martin in the UK.

I would think you could certainly get away with under $1,000 or so, without too much trouble. You should be able to re-use your existing manifold, but would have to either go with throttle body injection, or have injector bungs welded in.

I'd imagine that going TBI would be a bit easier, in that you should be able to find a TBI unit somewhere, and make an adapter plate for it to fit your manifold.

[Farrar]

I spent about $1,700.

:jawdrop:

OK, sorry I asked... :\

[DARCOM]

If you want the least expensive, get used parts at a salvage yard on a 2.8 chevy v6.injectors, tps, temp sensor, air temp sensor, iac, and wiring connectors. then buy a ms2 extra that you build yourself, buy some untaped fuel rails, high pressure hoses and a fuel pressure regulator. if you do all the work yourself you may get away with spending $600+-.

[opethmike]

:jawdrop:

OK, sorry I asked... :\

Well, I DID go pretty much the most expensive route possible so my amount isn't representative.

[AdmiralSenn]

I think all of our combined efforts, especially Owen's latest venture with developing a drop-in conversion, has conclusively proven that you can do it for around $1000 or less.

In my case I think I could duplicate my current setup for around $1100. That's including the markup on my fuel system parts; buying them online would have saved me a few hundred. I also spent a lot more money on expensive fuel lines and fittings than is strictly necessary.

It really depends on how much work you want to put into it versus how much you're willing to pay for convenience.

[Spittybug]

For those who are asking the $$ aspects, see this link: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2564-Reasons-for-EFI&p=34730&viewfull=1#post34730

The difference is the manifold, the aluminum work, the throttle body, air filter, throttle position sensor and any credit for the K-Jet parts. The fuel fittings are a bit more expensive than I estimated too.

[Henrik]

.....I'll try and not only get a step-by-step how-to written so that anyone can install one, but I'll also pull together a kit of the necessary customized parts and make that available. (Rails, idle block and brackets).....

Cool! I look forward to that!


We'll get Shannon .... to post videos of the final products so that you can see with your own eyes.

Cool! I look forward to that!

[Farrar]

Quick question, and I apologize if this has already been answered... why can EFI not use the stock injector bungs?

[opethmike]

Quick question, and I apologize if this has already been answered... why can EFI not use the stock injector bungs?

I can, but it isn't the optimal spray angle. I do think though that Darcom has been using the stock bungs.

[Farrar]

I can, but it isn't the optimal spray angle.

So this will result in loss of fuel economy, I take it?

[opethmike]

So this will result in loss of fuel economy, I take it?

Theoretically, less power, less fuel economy, but honestly, I would be willing to bet that the difference is negligible.

[dmc6960]

It isn't the spray angle with the stock bungs, its their length. EFI injectors are typically much shorter than the K-Jet ones. Your spray leaving the injector will impact on the sidewall and start to liquify again. I would second the negligible affect though. Plus I think there are other injectors out there that have longer spray necks, or you could remove the stock bungs and insert something shorter but that would require major fab work.

I primarily chose my Z7U manifold due to not having to fabricate rails and mounts for the stock components.

[Spittybug]

One of the features of Megasquirt that I'm starting to explore is the "adhere to walls" and "sucked from walls" variables. The intent of these variables is track the "puddle" of fuel that grows and shrinks on the intake walls under acceleration and deceleration. I'm still learning, but the feedback seems to be very good by the user community. This modifies the fueling table to ensure that what is demanded by the engine actually makes it into the cylinders. I know this isn't exactly the same as an injector spray that hits more bung wall than if it were seated deeper, but it is similar and therefore worth looking into.

As I've said, let's get both of these proto cars up and running on good tunes and let them feedback to us the performance. One is a stock automatic, the other a Stage 2 manual. Both sets of injectors are 19#/hr flow rate, and although one set is taller than the other, both seat the same amount down into the stock injector holes.

[dmc6960]

Watch the duty cycle on that Stage II engine at 6000+ rpm. My home built Stage II+ reaches 100% duty keeping 12.5 AFR at 6500+ rpm. 19# injectors may be a bit undersized for the job. I haven't changed them myself yet because they were a package deal with my setup, and I can still try increasing fuel pressure a little bit to compensate. Ideally you dont want the injectors exceeding 95% duty cycle.

[DARCOM]

I removed my bungs and installed the injectors in the head. i wanted the injector to be as low in the head as possible to get a better spray pattern. Im not sure if its better or not but i have had no ill effects or problems.

[Spittybug]

I removed my bungs and installed the injectors in the head. i wanted the injector to be as low in the head as possible to get a better spray pattern. Im not sure if its better or not but i have had no ill effects or problems.

How did you compensate for the wider hole? The stock bungs have the correct ID for the injectors, removing them creates a wider ID. Did you simply use fatter O-rings? Mechanically, how did you remove them? Simple twist/pull out?

Your comment "Im not sure if its better or not but i have had no ill effects or problems." leads me to believe it probably isn't worth the effort.

[DARCOM]

I just got O rings that fit and seal in the hole.
To get the bungs out of the hole i used a tool to remove broken bolts. it spins in reverse and locks in the hole but as i remember some would just come out.
I would agree just use the bungs the way they are ,it would be easier than the way i did it.

[Spittybug]

Opethmike, we need your help. I noticed on the MSextra boards that you moved your ignition wire from off the coil and into the car (white/slate) and that got rid of your error code #14 sync losses. Shannon's car is experiencing this very problem. Log files show up as #14 hiccups and bam, shuts down unless at high enough revs to survive it. Every time it hiccups I can hear the relays click on/off, so I was faced with a chicken and egg situation; was the sync loss taking it offline, or was an opening relay taking it offline and causing the #14 fault! Then I saw your post on the boards.

You are using the tach source to run fuel only. We have gone to VR input and installed the coil driver chip on the MS board. These function fine as we have tested the box in my car with no issue. This means the VR signal from Shannon's car must either somehow be "dirty" or dropping out or he has electrical gremlins tripping his relays. His cooling fans mysteriously come on with key in run position (but car not actually running), so who knows... Turning off A/C didn't have any affect on our problem.

I have posted over in the MSextra forum and will see if anyone can help. I'm going to read up more on the error, but there is little documentation. I'm also going to learn more about the VR trim pots......hopefully it is something tweakable.

On a positive note, my car hasn't run better! I still need to fiddle a bit to get my WUE settings a little better so I don't have to worry about stalling until the engine is hot, but other than that, I'm enjoying tooling around. Lots of spark advance and performance is good!

[opethmike]

I'm not sure how much help I can offer, unfortunately; as I am running fuel control only. My fix for the code 14 was just what you stated - I moved the tach read to the white/slate wire coming out of the idle ECU.

Sorry to hear about Shannon's troubles. It was VERY maddening when I was experiencing them. My guess for the root cause is a dirty signal causing the reset. I think so because when I moved the source of my tach input, the issue went away.

[lazabby]

Just wanted togive everyone a brief update. On my car and Ian's car, we've finished all known mechanical issues. We're now in the tuning stage. We've had some sync signal loss above 5,000 RPM due to electrical noise interference. It's more pronounced on Ian's car (high RPMs) since he has a five speed and I have an auto. The noise filtering option in Tuner Studio helped some but didn't completely eliminate it. Putting in Owen's MS 3.0 box completely eliminates the problem. We're running the MS 3.57. I sometimes have an issue with the car dying when I shift from Park to Reverse or Drive but I haven't driven it enough yet to determine how consistent and under what conditions it occurs.

[Spittybug]

To clarify, both Ian and Shannon's version 3.57 Megasquirt boxes (surface mount components) have something different in their build than my 3.0 (traditional components) does and it is somehow not reading the signal from their distributors as cleanly. My box works just fine in both cars. Their boxes in my car gives the same problems. My suspicion is the VR conditioning circuit (specifically the pots) is somehow different and not as good. As Shannon said, at high RPMs they experience momentary sync loss and therefore a hiccup. The occasional stall that Shannon is reporting on his shifting is likely due to a sync loss at the low RPM which then stalls the car. This is a result of us playing with the voltage trigger and hysteresis pots on the board and not having them quite right.

Both of these cars have run, and run pretty darn well but for this issue. We don't want to retreat to having the stock ECU stay in the car or have to go with an HEI igntion module, but we may need to put in a little daughter board (~$35) that is made specifically to be a VR conditioning circuit. We are going to do some experimenting on my benchtop with an oscilloscope and a spare distributor.

At this point, I cannot advocate buying the 3.57 board instead of the 3.0 board. It's more expensive and has this apparent problem. If you are considering taking the plunge, keep that in mind.

Anyone else interested? :wrenchin:

[opethmike]

My different perspective on this (with all due respect Owen, just my train of thought here!):

Provided one stays with fuel control only, I can advocate the 3.57. Yes, its more, but its built, done, and ready to go. No sync loss issues for me, and saved myself a lot of headaches by not trying to assemble my own board.

My personal opinion is also that one should not go ignition control unless one has access to a dyno for a day. Unlike fuel control, it is simply impossible to correctly and optimally tune ignition "on the road". Playing it conservatively, one can get the car running and driving well, but not optimally.

[opethmike]

Just thought of this - I do not believe that the Stage 2 uses the stock base timing. Have you guys confirmed/denied that?

[dmc6960]

I think the standard DMC Stage II uses 15º or 16º as its base timing.

For what its worth, I've kept the stock 13º base timing on my engine since I've built it. This was a compromise for keeping some lower end power at the sacrifice of some higher end power. Since my MSII upgrades must wait another year I plan on playing around with the base timing to see what I can get out of it this year. Using the accelerometer in the phone I can map out an acceleration curve to get near dyno results and find out where I gain and loose acceleration.

[Spittybug]

My personal opinion is also that one should not go ignition control unless one has access to a dyno for a day. Unlike fuel control, it is simply impossible to correctly and optimally tune ignition "on the road". Playing it conservatively, one can get the car running and driving well, but not optimally.

I'm not sure I fully agree. From the manual we know the base timing to be 13-15 degrees, centrifugal advance is a linear 20* over the RPM range of 1000 to 4000 (conservative, so I make it up to 3000) and vacuum advance of 20* beginning at just-off-idle to near wide open as this is the spec for the stock dizzy. This is easily modeled into a table; I have a spreadsheet if anyone needs it. After that, it is a question of tweaking. YES, absolutely a dyno will allow optimization, but I believe that following this procedure has bettered the stock dizzy settings even without it.

Jim, I hadn't thought of using an accelerometer, but now that you've put that bug in my head..............................I'll let you know!

[opethmike]

Ah, respectful disagreement; such a nice change of pace around here!

Also, I tried out changing my MAP lag to 90 per your note - wow! Makes a really nice difference in, exactly as you said, coming off idle. Thanks for letting us know about that one!

[Spittybug]

:yesss: :mechbull: :Headspin: :grouphugg: THAT'S the benefit of a helpful, respectful sharing of information in a forum. You're welcome. Give the enhanced acceleration enhancement a try too.

[opethmike]

I had planned to do so today, but forgot to put your tune on my thumb drive to use for reference.

My default MAP lag was fine pre-engine build, but the BIG swings from the large cams didn't gel so well with that.

[AdmiralSenn]

When I get 3416 back together I'll try the MAP lag setting. I've ALWAYS had a problem with initial tip-in off idle, especially into first gear or reverse, and I wonder if that will fix it. Thanks for the tip!

[Squall67584]

So how are the conversion prototype cars running? :)

[Spittybug]

Sorry for the long delay in updating....

Car #1 (Lazaby): Fuel & spark working and he's going through his learning curve on getting his tune where he wants it. I believe he has been playing around with the closed loop idle features to eliminate the occasional stalling that he was getting when moving from park to drive (automatic) when the car was cold. I thinks he's been pretty successful in doing so. I don't know that he has totally eliminated his occasional sync loss issue however. I think it is at a high enough RPM that he doesn't experience it under normal conditions. When last we spoke he told me that it was 100% driveable and better than pre-conversion.

Car #2 (TexasTwister): Very mysterious.... he has spent many, many hours chasing down what appear to be electrical issues that would not only cause his sync loss, but later on, terribly unpredictable ignition. He'd get some cylinders that just wouldn't fire, then would, etc.... We were convinced that there was something wrong with his box and then when we tried it on my car, it ran. Really difficult diagnosis. He had done a lot of wiring harness work to make it look good so we thought maybe that was the problem. Nope. Disconnected alarm system and cruise control...nope. Replaced all ignition components...nope. Finally, with time working against him he took the 10 minutes it takes to revert to fuel only and voila, running well. No sync loss at all, no electrical issues.

So, in both of these cases we see the new 3.57 version boards haven't liked something with respect to running spark control. My 3.0 box runs my car just fine for both fuel and spark. My box also ran both of their cars at one point or another. DIYautotune has provided log files showing that they got TT's box running on the bench, no sync loss up to at least 6K RPM, using his distributor in the drill press. I saw that our dizzy puts out a perfectly acceptable wave at both high and low RPM, so I don't believe the input signal to be the cause of the sync loss. My suspicion is that something on the 12v lines of their cars is "dirty" and is wrecking havoc on the circuitry of the 3.57 boards but not my 3.0 board. But then again, TT ran his megasquirt from a totally separate battery and experienced the same problem. That means his only connection to the car's electrical system was to the fuel pump and the grounding of his free battery to the car. We run the fuel pump on a different circuit from the megasquirt box itself, but if the "noise" of the pump is great enough, maybe the battery isn't buffering it enough. Dave M. mentioned something about putting a big capacitor after a diode in the line. I'd like to try that. After TT returns from his roadtrip I'm sure he'll be ready to try again. While the spark control setup I have mimics the vacuum and mechanical advance of our distributors, it's a little more aggressive which increases performance. Being controllable also allows for it to be used in closed loop to stabilize idle when loads come on. I'm also free of a lot of stuff on the car, making for a clean look.

We have successfully shown that the fuel injectors fit right into the stock positions, that fuel rails and hold down brackets can be made to fit in the tight spaces and that idle air can be controlled with the new setup. We will find out what is causing the other issues, but driving comes first!

[nkemp]

I had heard that the fuel rail & injectors from the 3.0L PRV fits the 2.8L. Has anyone tried that?

Make sure the engine and frame is grounded properly to the battery. I'll avoid my experiences (found elsewhere herein) but grounding can be an issue on some DeLoreans.

This is a long shot but one that many people miss. If you are using shielded wire, the ground shield should be ground at one end or the other but not both. Many people think that grounding one end is good and both ends is better. The way it was described to me was that grounding at both makes it worse because it acts like an antenna.

Also, make sure signal wires are not run parallel to things like ignition wires. Cross those wire perpendicular with at least an inch space. For that matter, given that you have troubles, I'd separate sensor wires from power leads to other electrical components just in case.

I once worked for a company where we started having "controller problems". A well intentioned assembler "tidied up" the assembly by bundling the sensor, 24Vac & line voltage lines. Once unbundled the "controller problems" went away. We used to think that 24Vac was not an issue but with the lower voltage components, even 24Vac is separated from the sensor lines.

FFT,
Nick

[Spittybug]

Thanks for the suggestions Nick. We've separated all wires, shielded them (connecting one end only as you correctly pointed out) and done eighteen other noise abatement things.... I'm really leaning towards noisy fuel pump.

[Squall67584]

What does shielded mean? My caveman brain does not compute :ehh:

[Spittybug]

Has a metal (foil or braided) wrapper. Like a coax TV cable does.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I had heard that the fuel rail & injectors from the 3.0L PRV fits the 2.8L. Has anyone tried that?

Make sure the engine and frame is grounded properly to the battery. I'll avoid my experiences (found elsewhere herein) but grounding can be an issue on some DeLoreans.

This is a long shot but one that many people miss. If you are using shielded wire, the ground shield should be ground at one end or the other but not both. Many people think that grounding one end is good and both ends is better. The way it was described to me was that grounding at both makes it worse because it acts like an antenna.

Also, make sure signal wires are not run parallel to things like ignition wires. Cross those wire perpendicular with at least an inch space. For that matter, given that you have troubles, I'd separate sensor wires from power leads to other electrical components just in case.

I once worked for a company where we started having "controller problems". A well intentioned assembler "tidied up" the assembly by bundling the sensor, 24Vac & line voltage lines. Once unbundled the "controller problems" went away. We used to think that 24Vac was not an issue but with the lower voltage components, even 24Vac is separated from the sensor lines.

FFT,
Nick

All very good and correct info. The shield should not conduct current which is why you only ground one end. But shielding wires is only going to help with high impedance sensor circuits or if your trying to eliminate radio frequency noise.

[nkemp]

Since you are running modern fuel injectors (what I'm trying to say is non-CIS injectors) you don't need the pumping pressure capacity of the original fuel system and fuel pump. You may want to try using a GM pump module for diagnostic purposes. They are designed for fuel injectors similar to what you are using, they are QUIET, and they are really a pretty interesting module. Try to find one with an external puckup screen to maximize our 13 gallon tanks.

With any luck, you'll find one for free at a cooperative dealer or repair shop. Ask for one where the sender has failed. They often replace the whole assembly instead of just the sender. Scrap yards will sell them in the $35 range if you remove. Depending on the car that is either easy (2003 Buick Regal... access behind back seat in trunk) or really hard (2002 Astro ... requires dropping the tank).

The modules with gasket fits perfect in our tank opening and a v-clamp is what DMCH uses to secure the unit. You'll connect the fuel lines to the new barbed fittings (I'm not exactly sure they are a direct fit but it is close. So don't blame me when you need 13 adapters to match it up :-).

If you get one for free you may have overpaid. It may be near its end of life. I pulled a working pump module from the Regal because the sender failed at 150,000 miles. I've had them fail a lot earlier than that in the Astro. So you may want to get a new module if this solves the problem. From what I've read, it is best to get the ACDelco brand. The 3rd party units are less, sometimes a lot less, but I've read some bad reports. I found an ACDelco one for the Regal for $125 on the bay.

Nick

[AdmiralSenn]

Electrics, check. Grounds, check. Good gas, check. Plug, cap, rotor, wires, check. Transmission fluid, check. Seems that the EFI is the only thing that HAS worked properly!

This has been my experience as well. Although my car has had lots of issues, the fuel system after the conversion has not been one of them. Just regular D/old car issues.

[Ron]

Please help Lazabby with Engine Dies When Placed In Gear HERE (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?4501-Engine-Dies-When-Placed-In-Gear***Split-from-Spittybug-EFI***)

[lazabby]

Still dealing with some sync loss issues at high RPMs. Not as bad in auto compared with 5 speed. Once I get close ot 65 MPH the car starts cutting out. Yesterday I did an experiment and took off the belt turning the alternator. I then revved up the engine and still had the sync loss so the the alternator is ruled out as the source of electrical interference to Megasquirt.

[opethmike]

Are you running fuel control only, or ignition as well? If you are running fuel only, what do you have your trigger input set to, basic, or 'fuel only'?

I run fuel only, and I had idle sync loss issues until I set my trigger input to 'fuel only'.

[lazabby]

Are you running fuel control only, or ignition as well? If you are running fuel only, what do you have your trigger input set to, basic, or 'fuel only'?

I run fuel only, and I had idle sync loss issues until I set my trigger input to 'fuel only'.

I'm running fuel and ignition. I have the MS 3.57 box. The strange thing is another member (Spittybug) is running with a 3.0 box with no issues. When he put his box on another car that was having the same issue as I am, then the other member's car ran fine with no sync loss. We feel that something changed between the 3.0 and 3.57 versions but haven't located the differences. The other member went back to fuel only.

[opethmike]

Yeah, I'm planning on going with a 3.0 box should I ever convert to ignition control. Are you considering doing that? May not be a bad idea.

[lazabby]

Yeah, I'm planning on going with a 3.0 box should I ever convert to ignition control. Are you considering doing that? May not be a bad idea.

If we don't get a resolution on whatever is causing the sync loss then I'll just go to fuel only. I hate to do that since Megasquirt has all that capability. I will say that I'm enjoying how the car drives and responds. I just can't go above 65 mph at the moment, which, as you know, is really hampering my time travelling.

[lazabby]

As many of you know a fellow Delorean owner and I did an EFI conversion earlier this year. This conversion kept the Delorean manifold. We have had an issue with the Megasquirt 3.57 box purchased from DIYAutotune. Numerous emails, discussions with various people, tests failed to solve a sync loss issue we were having with our cars at high RPMs. We knew it had to do with the 3.57 box as the 3.0 box worked fine. The 3.57 box wouldn't work in another owner's car that was running fine with the 3.0 box. Our only solution, besides buying a 3.0 box, was to take a Delorean to Georgia where DIY was located and have the guys there diagnose the problem. The fellow Delorean owner has been on a US tour in his Delorean and made it to DIY today. They worked on software and hardware setting and were NOT able to eliminate the sync loss problem. They did not figure out what the issue was causing the sync loss but felt it had to do with the spark plugs or wires. They know something in their 3.57 board is not quite right for the Deloreans but apparently works fine for other cars. When they put a 3.0 box in the car the car ran beautiful. So they swapped the boxes and now the Delorean is running fine with the 3.0 box. I'll be sending mine in for the swap.

Hopefull this will put this problem behind us and we can now move forward to tweaking the settings in the program on the box to get great performance with the cars. This will now open the way for other Delorean owners who want to do the conversion. Just remember to order the 3.0 box. Fortunately it's also less expensive than the 3.57 box.

[Spittybug]

:yesss: the problem has been acknowledged and rectified

:smashfreak: all it takes is beating on the right people long enough to
ward off the gremlins :hexer:
so it's time to :cheers: and get all of those on the fence people converted!!!

[opethmike]

As many of you know a fellow Delorean owner and I did an EFI conversion earlier this year. This conversion kept the Delorean manifold. We have had an issue with the Megasquirt 3.57 box purchased from DIYAutotune. Numerous emails, discussions with various people, tests failed to solve a sync loss issue we were having with our cars at high RPMs. We knew it had to do with the 3.57 box as the 3.0 box worked fine. The 3.57 box wouldn't work in another owner's car that was running fine with the 3.0 box. Our only solution, besides buying a 3.0 box, was to take a Delorean to Georgia where DIY was located and have the guys there diagnose the problem. The fellow Delorean owner has been on a US tour in his Delorean and made it to DIY today. They worked on software and hardware setting and were NOT able to eliminate the sync loss problem. They did not figure out what the issue was causing the sync loss but felt it had to do with the spark plugs or wires. They know something in their 3.57 board is not quite right for the Deloreans but apparently works fine for other cars. When they put a 3.0 box in the car the car ran beautiful. So they swapped the boxes and now the Delorean is running fine with the 3.0 box. I'll be sending mine in for the swap.

Hopefull this will put this problem behind us and we can now move forward to tweaking the settings in the program on the box to get great performance with the cars. This will now open the way for other Delorean owners who want to do the conversion. Just remember to order the 3.0 box. Fortunately it's also less expensive than the 3.57 box.


:yesss: the problem has been acknowledged and rectified

:smashfreak: all it takes is beating on the right people long enough to
ward off the gremlins :hexer:
so it's time to :cheers: and get all of those on the fence people converted!!!


Wait..... are you guys saying that DIYAutotune will swap a 3.0 box for a 3.57 box for us DeLorean EFI folks? If so, I am getting in on that!

[lazabby]

Well they swapped Ian's and I'm sending mine in to be swapped. I don't know of any other D owners with the 3.57 box.

[opethmike]

Now you know another one :) I have a 3.57 box.

[Bitsyncmaster]

There guess it has to do with spark just makes me think the coil driver should not have shared the unit ground and should use a return (ground) connection external to the unit. I made this suggestion back when I first looked over the schematics. I would be willing to modify a unit with that change if you would like. Just to see if it would fix the problem.

[lazabby]

Wait..... are you guys saying that DIYAutotune will swap a 3.0 box for a 3.57 box for us DeLorean EFI folks? If so, I am getting in on that!

I don't know if they will do everyone. You can try.

[lazabby]

I received my 3.57 box back today from DIY. They created a "solderless mod kit to change input inpedance" to match the 3.0 version. I put the box in the car and took it for a short drive. I can't get up to high speeds in my neighborhood but the car seemed to run well, except for a non-Megasquirt issue. When I got back home I put the car in park and revved the engine to close to redline with no sync loss. It appears that the problem has been fixed. I plan to spend more time on the car Saturday. Now for the fine tuning.

[lazabby]

I've driven the car several times since I got the 3.57 box back with the change inside. I took the car out this evening and got up to 75 mph with no sync loss. I consider the problem fixed. I was having an issue with a sudden RPM drop while at a stop sign but that seems to have disappeared.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I received my 3.57 box back today from DIY. They created a "solderless mod kit to change input inpedance" to match the 3.0 version. I put the box in the car and took it for a short drive. I can't get up to high speeds in my neighborhood but the car seemed to run well, except for a non-Megasquirt issue. When I got back home I put the car in park and revved the engine to close to redline with no sync loss. It appears that the problem has been fixed. I plan to spend more time on the car Saturday. Now for the fine tuning.

So was that input impedance the fix? Do you know what input they changed? I would assume the VR coil.

[lazabby]

So was that input impedance the fix? Do you know what input they changed? I would assume the VR coil.

I really don't know. I can open the box and take a photo and send to you if you want if you think that will help figure it out.

[Bitsyncmaster]

I really don't know. I can open the box and take a photo and send to you if you want if you think that will help figure it out.

I don't have a box so was just interested in looking at what they did schematic wise.

[elfking]

Looks great, very tempting! Thanks for doing all the leg work!

[nkemp]

Bump...

So how are things a year later? How do they run and what are your opinions of the converion?

[Spittybug]

You'll need to hear it from TexasTwister and Lazabby (Ian and Shannon) themselves, but I believe both are very pleased and would never go back........ Got another we are about to do.

[lazabby]

Mechanically everything is great. I need to do somew fine tuning with the preogram as I know it could run better. We've talked about trying to hire a dyno shop one Saturday so we can spend time trying to dial in the best numbers. We may do that once the third person finishes his comversion.

[nkemp]

I think the bottom line question is related to how much EFI differs from CIS be it a positive change or negative. So how does performance and operation differ from stock?

[Spittybug]

Performance wise, it's stock or better. How much better is up to your willingness to tinker with tables to optimize the timing and fueling. In my case I eliminated some significant weight when I went to a different manifold.

Reliability wise, it has no more K-jet related issues (which pile up with age).

Cost wise, after the initial conversion, no more K-jet expenses or mechanic costs to fix them.

Convenience wise, I like playing with a laptop in the cool of the cabin rather than turning wrenches.....

[nkemp]

Convenience wise, I like playing with a laptop in the cool of the cabin rather than turning wrenches.....

It's 90F, 90% RH, help from 10,000 of my closest mosquito friends and I'm leaning over a hot engine wondering why I don't tackle these jobs when it's 20F outside. The laptop alone may be the driving factor for me.

[Spittybug]

It's 90F, 90% RH, help from 10,000 of my closest mosquito friends and I'm leaning over a hot engine wondering why I don't tackle these jobs when it's 20F outside. The laptop alone may be the driving factor for me.

90* would be welcome. I quit looking at 100* which is a pretty regular occurrence here in Houston. Let's not even discuss the humidity. On a positive note, bugs are not bad. I don't know if it's too freeeekin hot for them or if the comprehensive spraying programs that the neighborhoods partake in does the trick.....

[Spittybug]

Just enabled (long overdue) another feature of Megasquirt. Several of the inputs is configurable as to when it goes to ground. The easiest one to connect to is the f-idle wire (if you are running a 4 wire stepper IAC valve this isn't used), but there are others. This circuit goes to ground if certain parameters are met, which are set up in the Tuner Studio. I have connected a Radio Shack buzzer to +12V and ground it through the f-idle wire. The parameters I have set up are either coolant temp >220* or AFR >19. The AFR warning may be temporary once I'm convinced I have my fueling table adjusted to the point where I never go too lean. For now however, it provides a nice quick buzz for me while driving so that I can note the circumstances and adjust my table accordingly. The coolant temp is a no-brainer for our cars. Rather than rely on fan fails and hope to see gauge reading before it's too late, I'd like a warning! The current code only allows 2 conditions, but rumor is that it will accommodate more in future versions.

Neat safety feature.

If you want something more substantial to be driven (fans coming on or whatever), all you have to do is add a relay.

[lazabby]

I wanted to revive an old thread to put in information for future records. We had a problem with the Megasquirt 3.57 board. The 3.0 board worked great in the Deloreans but not the 3.57 board. after several months of trying to fix the issue DYIAutoTune finally figured out what to do to fix it. They made changed to my board. Here is an email from Matt with DYIAutoTune:

"The main difference between the V3.0 and V3.57 is the input impedance -
it's higher on the V3.0. I have shipped this one with three
resistor-on-a-wire jumpers to let you change the impedance. The one I
think will be the best bet is a 15K with green leads, and I have put
that in your ECU. There is also a red 10K and a blue 20K - use the red
one if it won't sync at low RPM, or the blue if it's having high RPM
problems but low RPM is fine."

This was the change he made in my box. I've been running ok but haven't pushed the car to the red line. When I took my car in to the dyno shop, there was sync loss (?) at very high RPM so I plan to swap the green lead with the blue one to see if that makes a difference.

[lazabby]

I'm posting a link to a discussion on the Megasquirt/Tuner Studio board on the issues we were having with the Megasquirt board a couple of years ago:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=44382&start=20

[Josh]

I wanted to revive an old thread to put in information for future records. We had a problem with the Megasquirt 3.57 board. The 3.0 board worked great in the Deloreans but not the 3.57 board. after several months of trying to fix the issue DYIAutoTune finally figured out what to do to fix it. They made changed to my board. Here is an email from Matt with DYIAutoTune:

"The main difference between the V3.0 and V3.57 is the input impedance -
it's higher on the V3.0. I have shipped this one with three
resistor-on-a-wire jumpers to let you change the impedance. The one I
think will be the best bet is a 15K with green leads, and I have put
that in your ECU. There is also a red 10K and a blue 20K - use the red
one if it won't sync at low RPM, or the blue if it's having high RPM
problems but low RPM is fine."

This was the change he made in my box. I've been running ok but haven't pushed the car to the red line. When I took my car in to the dyno shop, there was sync loss (?) at very high RPM so I plan to swap the green lead with the blue one to see if that makes a difference.

As mentioned in another thread a proper crank position sensor would solve this issue entirely. No need for a custom MS box or an older revision. Switching resistors is just reaching a compromise with the sub-par rpm signal from the distributor.

[opethmike]

+1

Nice thing about the pre-assembled ECUs is that they already have the VR conditioner circuit installed. So then a trigger wheel, crank sensor, and bracket later you have a clean, from the crank signal.

No, on an odd-fire you still won't be able to do ignition control like this, but you will have a much cleaner signal.