Headlight switch and dash lights

[aludden]

I figured it's more useful to start a new thread than to keep adding to the Tech Session post...

On my way back from the tech session, my light switch came apart (the back pulled out). I managed to put it back together, but I have no dash lights. The other lights work, and the switch works.

I jumpered the rheostat wires and that didn't help.

So I took it apart. It doesn't look melted or corroded, but I don't see how the dash light connector is supposed to get power. I think maybe some piece fell out behind the dashboard when the back came out.

Until I get a new switch, is there any reason why the marker lights and dash lights connectors couldn't be jumpered together? I am switching my lights to LEDs, so the power draw shouldn't be a problem (I am sure the headlights draw a lot more anyway).

Here's a picture of the inside of the switch, and the connectors.

Thanks!
Alex

[Bitsyncmaster]

Actually the switch see less current switching the headlights (about 70 ma.). That is because the headlights (high and low beams) are switched with two relays.

If it's only the dash illumination lights not working you probably have bad connection. It could be a broken wire or bad crimp. If you wire 12 volts to the rheostat red/white wire, all five illumination lights should light.

[Farrar]

If you wire 12 volts to the rheostat red/white wire, all five illumination lights should light.

Could be a red/orange wire...

[Bitsyncmaster]

Rheostat has four red/orange wires all tied together and the other wire that feeds the dash lamps should be red/white. If you have a meter, just check if there is 12 volts on those wires.

[Farrar]

Rheostat has four red/orange wires all tied together and the other wire that feeds the dash lamps should be red/white.

Good grief! My car is screwed up. They must have been running low on red/white wire when they made #2613's harness. There are quite a few places where it was evidently substituted with something else nearby. *sigh*

Sorry. :o

Farrar

[sean]

Good grief! My car is screwed up.

naw, it's just unique.

[aludden]

You're right about the red/white wire, per the schematic. I fed 12V and I only get one dash light- the bottom one by the mileage. Actually, I had noticed that light on before, but since everything else was dark I assumed it was light bleeding from some other place.

So, is it binnacle removal time? :-(

Also, I probably have other issues which may or may not be related:
1. When I turn on the key, I only get the oil lamp to light up - no other indicator lights
2. When I turn the headlight switch to either on position, the a/c panel lights go out

[Ron]

Buy lots of bulbs ;-)

[aludden]

Well, the lights were coming on and going off when I was coming back from your house, Ron, whenever I hit a bump. Right now they happen to be off - or they could have all burned at once.

I was planning to replace them with LEDs, so if I have to remove the binnacle I will wait until I get the LEDs.

[Ron]

See if the red-orange wire at the AC Panel relay has 12v with lights on.

It's odd your batt, fuel, ?brake? light quit, they use the same feed as the oil light but each have different grounds.

[aludden]

[QUOTE=Ron;28239]See if the red-orange wire at the AC Panel relay has 12v with lights on.

Ron, If I understood you correctly, you wanted me to remove the relay and see if I have 12V when the lights are on. The answer is yes, on the pin marked by the arrow (can't tell what color wire that has). When the lights are off, no power there.
6498

While I was there, I got to remind myself what a big mess my relay panel is :-(
Someone was very creative with all the wiring!!! I'm going to have lots of questions for you guys! Here's a sampler:

Overview: 6499

Left side - what the heck? 6500

A black wire goes from here to the red terminal in the picture above: 6501

And fuse box with two very melted connectors: 6502
These have been bypassed with inline fuses.

Not pretty! I guess I have my work cut-out...

[Farrar]

Left side - what the heck?

Looks like somebody bypassed the resistor for the HVAC panel bulbs.

Farrar

[aludden]

Looks like somebody bypassed the resistor for the HVAC panel bulbs.

Farrar

Would that cause the ac panel to go off when the lights are on?

[Farrar]

Would that cause the ac panel to go off when the lights are on?

Yep. I used to have the same problem -- panel would go dark when I turned the headlight switch on.

Farrar

[aludden]

Yep. I used to have the same problem -- panel would go dark when I turned the headlight switch on.

Farrar

Well, I have a replacement red resistor I can put in. Any idea why they would have run that black wire to the socket? I want to remove it and put the resistor.

[Farrar]

Well, I have a replacement red resistor I can put in. Any idea why they would have run that black wire to the socket?

Not sure. Is the black wire a ground wire or does it go somewhere else?

The red socket should only have two wires: one green/white one and one red/brown one, if memory serves, and they both connect to the HVAC panel lights relay socket.

Farrar

[Ron]

Ron, If I understood you correctly, you wanted me to remove the relay and see if I have 12V when the lights are on. The answer is yes, on the pin marked by the arrow (can't tell what color wire that has). When the lights are off, no power there.That tells us the R-O wire from the rheostat is correct and that the AC light problem is somewhere else as suspected...which Farrar pointed out. However, I think that the jumper would just make the lights be bright all the time the key was on if nothing else has been changed. But that doesn't seem to be the case eg the extra black wire. I'm not clear as to where you are saying each end of it is connected. It sounds like you need to get it all where you can see exactly what colors are going where...


The red socket should only have two wires: one green/white one and one red/brown one, if memory serves, and they both connect to the HVAC panel lights relay socket.yes, and the (Light)Green-White also goes to fuse 11 (one of many branches).

=====

Do you have a clear schematic (there is a decent one in the resources)?

[Farrar]

Here ya go! This way it will be on the same page. :)

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=80&d=1306264434

Farrar

[Ron]

IMHO- I think it would be better to use the full schematic. These have "unimportant" wires missing because of the "focus". For example, the LG/W wire going to the main feed is missing...easy to think a PO made a boo boo etc. and his evidently has several mods...

[Farrar]

True, I think that diagram assumes that one knows that the LG/W wire is switched power. I don't know why they left that out. I should have mentioned that -- sorry.

Farrar

[Bitsyncmaster]

If you remove the light relay and install the jumper to make the AC lights only come on at full brightness with the light switch, then you don't need that red resistor. Just leave the resistor out.

I thought his problem was with the binnacle lights. This relay, resistor wiring has nothing to do with those.

[aludden]

Yes, Ron, I am referring to a very nice color schematic (thank you whoever made it!), but it is abstract and doesn't quite show what things look like "on the ground".

So I removed the relay holder to see things more clearly, and upon further inspection, things are more complicated than that, and may be connected to my hot start problem???

That black wire I am talking about actually goes right by the red plug, but is in fact connected to relay 28 "Start Inhibit", not the ac (my apologies!). It is connected to a loose plug that is sitting on top of the impulse unit, which has a Blue/Black and a White/Red wire going to the harness. So it is taking Black (ground?) from the loose plug and connecting to the left pin of #28, which has a White/Yellow wire. Is this what is called "105 Starter Relay" in the schematic?

Here is the overall picture, and detail pictures:
65256522652465266523

From the schematic I see that Blue/Black and White/Red goes to Cold Start Valve and Thermo Time Switch, so they wired the starter to those?

[aludden]

If you remove the light relay and install the jumper to make the AC lights only come on at full brightness with the light switch, then you don't need that red resistor. Just leave the resistor out.

I thought his problem was with the binnacle lights. This relay, resistor wiring has nothing to do with those.

You're right Dave, now that I dig deeper I am understanding how it all goes together. It just seems that one thing leads to another, and I'm not sure which problems are related and which are unrelated. I have several issues:
1. My binnacle lights don't work except for the mileage illumination and the oil lamp
2. My a/c panel goes off when I turn the lights on
3. There is some "creative" wiring in my relay panel
4. I have a hot-start problem

Sorry for the confusion!
Alex

[aludden]

Sorry, this thread is getting intertwined with the SEDOC meet thread. Should I post this there instead of here? I will eventually get back to my lights... :-)

The more I look, the more questions I have...
1. Where is the "107 Hot Start Relay" from the schematic located? I don't see it in figure 31 of the manual.
2. Where is the plug that I mention above with the black wire and UB/WR supposed to be connected to? Is that for the "Hot Start Relay"?
3. Why would they connect the Black wire from that plug to the White/Yellow starter relay? I don't see black wires going to the Cold Start Valve in the schematic (although there is one to the Thermo Time)

Aaaaahhh!

[Bitsyncmaster]

The hot start relay socket is way at the back of the relay compartment. It's a white socket just hanging there. It should have three wired pins in it.

The schematic does not show the start inhibit relay modification to make it a starter relay.

It's pretty easy for someone to move some of the relay sockets since they just interlock to each other. Mine had the headlight relays swapped.

[Farrar]

The grounds are ganged. So if you see black wires going from socket to socket, don't be alarmed -- that's how they came from the factory.

Farrar

[aludden]

The hot start relay socket is way at the back of the relay compartment. It's a white socket just hanging there. It should have three wired pins in it.

The schematic does not show the start inhibit relay modification to make it a starter relay.

It's pretty easy for someone to move some of the relay sockets since they just interlock to each other. Mine had the headlight relays swapped.

Well I guess mine is a black socket, because the wire colors match the schematic.
So there really is not relay, it's just a socket to put one if one wants to?
They anticipated having a hot start problem, rather than fixing it? :hihi2:

I'm not sure what you mean by the "start inhibit relay mod"...

[aludden]

In the Color schematic, section B4, where do those wires go?
I'm trying to trace the White/Yellow wire from the starter relay.

[Ron]

"On the ground" for relays:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?40-All-Wiring-Schematics&p=7640&viewfull=1#post7640


Sorry, this thread is getting intertwined with the SEDOC meet thread. Should I post this there instead of here? I will eventually get back to my lights... :-)

The more I look, the more questions I have...
1. Where is the "107 Hot Start Relay" from the schematic located? I don't see it in figure 31 of the manual.
2. Where is the plug that I mention above with the black wire and UB/WR supposed to be connected to? Is that for the "Hot Start Relay"?
3. Why would they connect the Black wire from that plug to the White/Yellow starter relay? I don't see black wires going to the Cold Start Valve in the schematic (although there is one to the Thermo Time)

Aaaaahhh!

I'd keep it here and maybe ask sean to move the others.

1 & 2 are the same animal. (mine's black too)
3- that would override the neutral safty switch. The thermo time switch uses its ground to control the Cold Start Valve.


Well I guess mine is a black socket, because the wire colors match the schematic.
So there really is not relay, it's just a socket to put one if one wants to?
They anticipated having a hot start problem, rather than fixing it? :hihi2:

I'm not sure what you mean by the "start inhibit relay mod"...

It was a feature (that had more wires) that was abandoned. I'd forget it and fix the real problem (I know you are trying to do so ;-)

still reading...

[aludden]

3- that would override the neutral safty switch. The thermo time switch uses its ground to control the Cold Start Valve.


Aha! That would explain why my car started in reverse yesterday! I was messing with the shifter to get at the rheostat and forgot to put back in park. It sure woke me up! :-)

[Ron]

In the Color schematic, section B4, where do those wires go?
I'm trying to trace the White/Yellow wire from the starter relay.The white-yellow is grounded by the a switch in the transmmission to enable the starter. It runs to the "L" shaped plug by the ignition resistors on the driver's side firewall. It's the top hole in the "L".

[aludden]

The white-yellow is grounded by the a switch in the transmmission to enable the starter. It runs to the "L" shaped plug by the ignition resistors on the driver's side firewall. It's the top hole in the "L".

Thank you. So I guess maybe the switch is bad so they overrode it with that black wire that then drove me crazy!

Thank you all for your patience - I just want to understand. It bugs me when I don't.

So the other messy spot is the missing Fan Fail Module.
6528
They just jumpered to one side so that explains why only one of my fans is working. Hopefully it's an oversight and not a short somewhere in that fan's wiring...

[aludden]

OK, so back to the ac panel lights...
Let me see if I got this correctly:
When ignition is turned on, power comes from LG/W wire into the resistor and from there to the R/N wire. The relay feeds that power to the a/c lights. When the car lights are turned on, power from the rheostat changes the connection in the relay so that rheostat power feeds the a/c lights instead, which would be dimmer (nighttime). Am I way off?

If that is so, and I do have power in the R/O wire when the lights are on, the relay is switching off the power from the ignition but not connecting the headlight power to the lights. It's a brand new relay, but I guess it could be bad. I have a bagful of the old relays (metal covered) but I don't know which one came from that spot :-( How can I identify it? Actually, I don't know if the old relay worked or not, I just replaced them all for good measure.

[Bitsyncmaster]

The rheostat only dims the 5 binnacle lamps.

The stock wiring put full power on the AC panel lights and when the headlight switch is pressed it would dim the AC panel lights via the resistor.

Most people have removed the AC panel light relay and installed a jumper in it's place. That change keeps the AC panel lights off until you press the headlight switch. It was found some AC panels would melt with the AC panel lights on all the time.

[Ron]

Alex, You are dead on except "but not connecting the headlight" should say resistor.
It could be the resistor or the contacts in the fan fail relay.

[Ron]

It was found some AC panels would melt with the AC panel lights on all the time.Mine is wired normal. Was that strictly "normal" heat and design ,or, bad grounds//connections there... Thinking about leds (again ;-)

[aludden]

AC lights mystery solved!!! :rock_on:

As I mentioned somewhere (actually, in the SEDOC thread), the rheostat connections I had were:
two wires - one wire - blank - two wires

And I couldn't see if that was correct because I could not remove the shifter knob.
Well, thanks to Nicholas R who explained to me how to take it apart, I just removed the shifter plate and saw that in fact that is not correct per DMCDW Dave's instructions.

So I changed the wires to:
two wires - two wires - blank - one wire

And that fixed it. Now the ac lights stay on when the light switch is turned on.
The four wires needed to be on one terminal, and the single wire in the other.

Well, I learned a lot of things today. Thank you!

[aludden]

Thinking about leds (again ;-)

I'm changing all my bulbs to LEDs. I still need to get the dash ones. As soon as I do, then I will take apart the binnacle and see if I can figure out the problem with the dash lights.
I'm gonna go with blue leds for the dash, and see how that looks!

[Ron]

:cheers1:

Keep plugin'!

[aludden]

Well, my victory cry was a bit premature :-(
I put the headlight switch back in its place (I hadn't pushed it back in yet) and my ac panel lights go out again when I turn on the lights...
Don't know if that is the cause, or if it's an intermittent thing.

[Ron]

See if you still have power on the R-O wire at the AC Relay (53) when the lights are on...and what reading you get on the R-N wire there as well.

[aludden]

See if you still have power on the R-O wire at the AC Relay (53) when the lights are on...and what reading you get on the R-N wire there as well.

Well, it's some kind of intermittent !@#$%.

RN and LGW are both 12 V all the time (actually jumpered together at the resistor socket). RO has 10.3V when the headlights come on.

Funny thing is (or not so funny) is that I gave up in disgust, put the relay back in and everything worked fine. I turned it on a second time and it didn't.

Am I doing this wrong? I am pulling out the relay and checking voltage at the contacts from above. Or are you asking me to check these voltages from below with the relay in?

Thanks!
Alex

[Bitsyncmaster]

RN and LGW are both 12 V all the time (actually jumpered together at the resistor socket). RO has 10.3V when the headlights come on.

Sounds like you have a discharged battery or a bad connection. Check your voltage at the battery when your lights are on.

[Farrar]

LGW should be live only with key on.

Farrar

[aludden]

LGW should be live only with key on.

Farrar

I'm sorry - by 'always on' I meant always when the panel is supposed to be on - ie ignition key to on.

My battery is probably weak, but there is that voltage difference: 12V on the LGW and RN, 10.3 on the RO.

[Ron]

RN and LGW are both 12 V all the time (actually jumpered together at the resistor socket). RO has 10.3V when the headlights come on.

Funny thing is (or not so funny) is that I gave up in disgust, put the relay back in and everything worked fine. I turned it on a second time and it didn't.

Am I doing this wrong? I am pulling out the relay and checking voltage at the contacts from above. Or are you asking me to check these voltages from below with the relay in?

Thanks!
Alex


Sounds like you have a discharged battery or a bad connection. Check your voltage at the battery when your lights are on.

I think Bitsy is right about a low battery. Charge it and try again. If they don't work, try the below:
Note there are two R-N wires!
Remove any PO jumpers at the resistor(54) and relay(53).
With the battery charged, resistor installed, relay(53) removed, lights OFF, key ON:
At relay socket, measure:
LGW should be ~battery voltage.
R-N from resistor should be less than LGW.
(*IF R-N from resistor = 0.0V, it/connections are bad, remove resistor and jumper resistor socket - Now ALL voltages > 0.0V in steps below should be ~battery voltage.*)
R-N to bulbs and R-O should be 0.0V
Turn lights ON.
LGW and R-O should be ~battery voltage (at this moment).
*R-N from resistor should be less than LGW (no significant change).*
*R-N to bulbs should be ~same as R-N from resistor.*

If you get this far w/o jumper, the lights should work properly when you install the relay.
If not, the connections there are probably bad (since we know the bulbs burn).

[aludden]

I think Bitsy is right about a low battery. Charge it and try again. If they don't work, try the below:
[...]


Thank you Ron for thinking all that up and writing it!

I charged the battery, but it didn't need much charge - Situation was still the same.
I removed the jumper on the resistor and put the resistor in its socket.
It now works. I tried it several times. So either the intermittent is in its ON phase, or it didn't like not having a resistor.
I'll keep trying it tomorrow, and if it fails then I will try the steps you listed.

Are all the purple relays the same? If so, I was thinking of trying a different relay, in case this one is bad or flaky.

Thanks!
Alex

[Farrar]

They should be all standard changeover relays: 87a is closed when coil is not energized, and 87 is closed when coil is energized.

From the12volt website:

SPDT Relay : (Single Pole Double Throw Relay) an electromagnetic switch, consist of a coil (terminals 85 & 86), 1 common terminal (30), 1 normally closed terminal (87a), and one normally open terminal (87) (Figure 1).

When the coil of an SPDT relay (Figure 1) is at rest (not energized), the common terminal (30) and the normally closed terminal (87a) have continuity. When the coil is energized, the common terminal (30) and the normally open terminal (87) have continuity.

The diagram below center (Figure 2) shows an SPDT relay at rest, with the coil not energized. The diagram below right (Figure 3) shows the relay with the coil energized. As you can see, the coil is an electromagnet that causes the arm that is always connected to the common (30) to pivot when energized whereby contact is broken from the normally closed terminal (87a) and made with the normally open terminal (87).

http://images.the12volt.com/12voltimages/relaytextA2.gifhttp://images.the12volt.com/12voltimages/relaytext2b.gifhttp://images.the12volt.com/12voltimages/relaytext3b.gif

I hope this is helpful.

Farrar

[aludden]

[...]
I hope this is helpful.

Farrar

Oh yes, thank you! I did some searches on relays but I didn't come up with this info.

[Ron]

Thank you Ron for thinking all that up and writing it!

I charged the battery, but it didn't need much charge - Situation was still the same.
I removed the jumper on the resistor and put the resistor in its socket.
It now works. I tried it several times. So either the intermittent is in its ON phase, or it didn't like not having a resistor.
I'll keep trying it tomorrow, and if it fails then I will try the steps you listed.

Are all the purple relays the same? If so, I was thinking of trying a different relay, in case this one is bad or flaky.

Thanks!
AlexYW!
I'd wait until the lights fail again and then mark the relay and swap for another one. I agree they are probably the same but always check the numbers (or schematic on it if there). Intermittent is the worst to work on...'wiggle' tests are often the best method.

[aludden]

So far, still working!

I just spent over an hour battling with the doorlight switch. What a stupid design! It's designed to fail. Is there a better switch out there?

Alex