ZDDP Plus

[DMC3165]

Hi all,

At my last service, I decided to start using zddp plus oil additive. After reading a little about It. This seemed like it might be a good idea. Especially since all my internal are bone stock with roughly 50K miles on them. I was wondering if anyone else uses it or if anyone can tell me the pros and cons of using this stuff. I've always used Dino oil (10w-30 don't get on me about the weight) but I've heard the newer oils will not adequately protect older motors like ours because of the lower zinc levels. Truthfully the engine does seem quieter at a cold start then it did before but it could just be my imagination.

Thoughts??????

[David T]

You have to be careful about over-dosing on ZDDP. The current "wisdom" is for older engines that were run on the older oils with a lot of ZDDP it is not as important once the motor has been broken in. They seem to tolerate the lower levels without any problems. Too much ZDDP can can have bad effects on the other components in the additive package. Which is why you should not be making up your own additive package or trying to modify one. Bottom line, about the only people that think additives are good are the people that make and sell them.
David Teitelbaum

[tgraham]

If you're interested, here's a good article that discusses oil in layman's terms. Someone posted this on another car forum that I frequent - it starts on page 4:

http://intermarque.org/images/IMM1008.pdf

The bottom line: if the ZDDP level matters to your application, you must be very specific as to which oil you buy. Even then, you may have to contact the manufacturer, as not many of them openly publish the data.

Travis

[DMCMW Dave]

This is one of the reasons that weight can be important. Not necessarily because of the weight, but because oil is formulated for its intended use (old cars, new cars, trucks, diesel etc.). In this case, old cars and motorcycles. Castrol 20W50, as well as other high-weight oils (Mobil 15W50) are supposedly formulated with more zinc for use in older Euro engines that need it. The lighter grades (10W30 etc.) are made to the more modern low-zinc formulas intended for newer engines, with an eye toward dumping less heavy metal (i.e. zinc) into the air and potential impact on catalytic converters. Funny though, I just went to look it up again and even Castrol's spec sheet for GTX oil has a section for zinc content but it's all blanked out. So things may be changing. . .. .

It's hard to roll your own though, as David T said it's pretty hard to find out what is really in any specific oil, so adding "more" is kind of a crapshoot and you won't find out if it works for about 40K miles. Too much is not good either.

[82DMC12]

Dave,

What is the default oil you use when you change oil on customers' cars?

Andy

[thegovernor9912]

try using oils designed for diesel engines, like DELO(in the blue bottle) and Rotella, they usually have more of the additives that you are looking for.

Personally I run Rotella 5w-40 full synthetic year round. I noticed that the valvetrain noise at idle is dampened with the synthetic over the Delo dino oil..

[DMCMW Dave]

Dave,

What is the default oil you use when you change oil on customers' cars?

Andy

Our default normal oil is Castrol GTX 20W50. No other additives. I will put in other oil on request. 20W50 is the recommendation down to 32F, and there aren't many people running these cars in temperatures below that (see the owners manual).

The fun part on this is avoiding an oil religion war. Happens on every automotive forum.

One religious part is the synthetic oil discussion. I will use Mobil 1 15W50 on request, and do in my own car, BUT there are a couple of cautions so proceed at your own risk and don't come crying to me if your engine blows up. Houston has talked to the people at Mobil, and Mobil would not recommend a specific synthetic oil for this engine. Most likely becuase it's old and they have never tested it. So, if you ask for the official company answer it's "no synthetic, Castrol 20W50 only".

There is another reason for this caution. If you don't know the service history on your car, and you have never looked inside the engine (i.e. pulled off valve covers), you probably want to avoid changing to synthetic until you can look.

The issue, and I've seen this happen, is that if the engine has been poorly maintained sometime in the past 30 years, 8) and there is a "crud" aka oil sludge buildup inside the engine, changing to a synthetic high-detergent oil will cause the sludge to start breaking loose and plugging up the tiny screens in the chain tensioners and the oil ports in the rocker arms,among other things.

I just know others will chime in about Volvo changing the recommendation after the DMC was built, success using 10W30, 5W30, Red Line, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Marvel oil, snake oil, etc. I'll stay away from that discussion.

[content22207]

*MAXIMUM* ZDDP levels (actual content may be less, but can not exceed):
API SG and prior: no limit
API SH: 12%
API SJ: 10%
API SM/SN: 8%

Modern engines use rollers at the camshaft interface, so decreased ZDDP levels are not as controversial. $10,000 question: what is the risk for "flat tappet" camshafts? Some people say none, some people say much. Everyone worries about the top end, but I also wonder what the risk is to the main bearings.

ZDDP levels were increased in the 1960's to increase engine life. They maxed out ~16% in the 1970's. ZDDP is the last line of defense when the oil barrier fails.

Diesel oils (API C rated) still run ~12% ZDDP. CJ-4 has a less aggressive detergent package than CI-4 due to the new low sulfur fuel. Some gasoline engine owners are using diesel oil now specifically because of its higher ZDDP levels. Diesel oil also has significantly less paraffin content than many S rated mineral oils (due to the refining process, most of which uses Chevron's patented "hydro cracking" method).

Re: multi viscosity oil: remember that the polymers that make it act like thicker oil are a multiple of the base oil weight. 10W40 oil has enough polymers to change the 10 weight base oil's viscosity characteristics 4 times, 15W40 oil has enough polymers to change the 15 weight base oil's viscosity characteristics 2.6 times, etc. Multi viscosity polymers break down with use, especially when sheared (between a camshaft lobe and rocker arm, for example). What gets left behind are less effective broken pieces of polymers, and the base oil weight. Some users are of the opinion that reducing multi viscosity polymer content is desirable, especially motorcyclists.

Re: synthetic oil -- remember that in the United States, motor oil can be labeled "synthetic" (not "synthetic blend") even though it originates from mineral oil stock (1999 Supreme Court ruling). This is not the case in Europe.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[82DMC12]

I always like oil threads. Has anyone ever heard of an oil-related failure in the DeLorean engine? I don't think I have. Either we don't drive them enough to find out or the engine is very resilient to such 'minor' issues!

Andy

[David T]

The best advice for motor oil is to not consider "synthetic". As Bill points out just because it says synthetic on the bottle does not mean it wasn't created out of base mineral oil. The main reason not to switch is that many have not had good results because the seals and gaskets tend to leak more when you take an older motor that was brought up on mineral based oil and convert it late in life to synthetic. The biggest reason to switch to a synthetic is to increase the change interval to offset the oil's higher cost. Since we usually change the oil in the motor (at least in Deloreans) based on time, not mileage, there is no advantage to switching. There can be some advantage in switching to synthetic in the transaxle, at least for the 5-speeds. Until you get into the 100,000 mile range with the PRV, IMHO ZDDP levels are a moot argument. This is not like when they took the lead out of the gasoline and the older cars had trouble with valve recession in the heads. If you want something to worry about worry about the alcohol content (and moisture content) in the stuff they pass off as fuel these days and then sell for near $4 a gallon!!!!!!!!!!!
David Teitelbaum

[DMC3165]

I always like oil threads. Has anyone ever heard of an oil-related failure in the DeLorean engine? I don't think I have. Either we don't drive them enough to find out or the engine is very resilient to such 'minor' issues!

Andy

My first DeLorean was a 300,000 + mile car. When it finally drove off into the sunset (figuratively speaking) it would barely make 20 psi of oil pressure and would just get hotter and hotter the longer it ran regardless if the fans were on or off, and regardless if the car was moving or parked. Long story short it was toast! So it was indirectly an oil related failure it had just worn out. But with that much mileage (outside of diesels) I wasn't surprised it was shot. In my experience I've seen very few 90 degree gas engines make it to 400,000 miles with original components.

[David T]

I would say that if you can get a gasoline engine to 300,000 miles whatever you did to get it there worked. At some point the motor will wear past acceptable limits no matter what magic potion you put in it. The PRV in the Delorean seems to be a very robust and long-lived powerplant as long as you do not overheat it and change the oil at least once in a while! A whole lot better than I can say about the electrical system.
David Teitelbaum

[jmettee]

Here are some more tidbits from Mobil1's website regarding zinc/ZDDP addatives.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_in_Engine_Oils.aspx
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

[DMC3165]

I would say that if you can get a gasoline engine to 300,000 miles whatever you did to get it there worked. At some point the motor will wear past acceptable limits no matter what magic potion you put in it. The PRV in the Delorean seems to be a very robust and long-lived powerplant as long as you do not overheat it and change the oil at least once in a while! A whole lot better than I can say about the electrical system.
David Teitelbaum

The most mileage I personally have gotten out of anything was my parents 89 Astro van with the 4.3 Chevy v6. My dad bought it new in 89 and eventually it became mine as a support vehicle for my business. When we got rid of it in 05 it had 349,000. Miles on it and it was still running! It had gone through 3 transmissions over its lifetime and needed another one which is why we decided to get rid of it. My dad always changed the oil every 3K miles as did I when I got it. So it is possible to get a good life out of the engine if you really take care of it.

[82DMC12]

Many years ago I worked at a Jiffy Lube. There was a courier company that had an Astro Van ( can't remember the year, but it was was brown!). That thing came in every two weeks and it had about 800,000 miles on it. The 4.3 engine ran OK but the rest of the van looked like hell. I wonder when it finally died?

Andy

[delornut]

If you're interested, here's a good article that discusses oil in layman's terms. Someone posted this on another car forum that I frequent - it starts on page 4:

http://intermarque.org/images/IMM1008.pdf

The bottom line: if the ZDDP level matters to your application, you must be very specific as to which oil you buy. Even then, you may have to contact the manufacturer, as not many of them openly publish the data.

Travis

I had breakfast with the author of this article yesterday on the way to the local Cars and Coffee. He was a bit surprised it was refered to by someone in Tennesee as The Intermarque is pretty much a local ( Minnesota/Wisconsin sportscar clubs) based free on line magazine. Anyhow, Tim is one of the most knowledgible sportscar ( Lotus in particular) enthusiasts I've met and his article really gets into the ZDDP aspect of motor oils. There's a lot of "seat of the pants" opinions expressed in recient posts here in DMC TALK but Travis is right: read this article. It's based on research, not personal opinions.

Bruce Benson

[tgraham]

I had breakfast with the author of this article yesterday on the way to the local Cars and Coffee. He was a bit surprised it was refered to by someone in Tennesee as The Intermarque is pretty much a local ( Minnesota/Wisconsin sportscar clubs) based free on line magazine.

I think I saw it originally on a Land Rover forum... though, maybe it was here? Regardless, tell Tim that he did a nice job! That article is the most comprehensive (yet succinct) analysis that I've found on the topic - a definite contrast to all of the hearsay, speculation, and half-baked definitions on this topic that clog up Internet search results.

Travis

[DMC3165]

Thanks for posting this article. It is the best I've read yet on the subject. I think I might do an oil analysis after this cycle to see what my zinc phosphorus levels are.

It would seem that its a good idea to use the zddp plus with a 10w-30 or lighter oil but it might be best to just purchase a heavier oil with a correctly balanced additive pack. I personally was never a fan of using heavier oils in a street gas engine. I once broke in an LT-1 on 5w-50 and drove it for 50k miles on that stuff. Then I accidentally bought a 5w-30, but to my surprise the engine ran significantly cooler (20-25 degrees) even while making slightly less oil pressure. So oil really Is application specific. There is no "one size fits all". But if a heavier oil is better for the D I'll switch.

[content22207]

Just got back from Autozone, where I found Delo on sale for $11 a gallon through the end of the month.

For the morbidly curious, a Delo oil analysis:
859
As you can see, not only does it still contain ~12% ZDDP, but it is an exceptionally pure oil (refined from Group III base stock, using Chevron's patented hydrocracking method).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[jmettee]

Here are my stock cams at approx 52K. I didn't see any significant wear to worry about.

[content22207]

Obviously you are of the opinion that decreased ZDDP levels are not a concern. The OP thinks differently.

The way I see it: if ZDDP levels were ~12% at the time our PRV's were built, why not continue to use oil with that concentration now?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[jmettee]

Obviously you are of the opinion that decreased ZDDP levels are not a concern. The OP thinks differently.

The way I see it: if ZDDP levels were ~12% at the time our PRV's were built, why not continue to use oil with that concentration now?

Bill Robertson
#5939

Crap, I didn't finish my paragraph after uploading pictures with the new forum format! I meant to continue by saying here is an example of cams with some mileage on them since the cams have been thought to wear. I saw your message in the other topic about cam wear & valve adjustments & I thought to post this here.

I use Mobil 1 15W-50 in my car because of 1) the original manual calls for these heavier oils & 2) I found that it has a decent ZDDP level per their spec sheets.

I've had this car since 39K & who knows what the previous owners put in it. Perhaps they always used decent oils & 20W-50 conventionals that likely also have the higher ZDDP levels in them.

[content22207]

ZDDP levels didn't start to plummet until November 2004 (API SM). Whatever oil was run through your engine prior to that contained 10%-12% ZDDP.

This of course the crux of the controversy: are 2005-later S rated ZDDP levels a problem or not? Prior to 2005 there was no controversy because ZDDP concentrations had remained constant for a decade or so.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

The most vulnerable parts are the tappets and the cam. Newer cars that can live with less ZDDP now have roller tappets so the lower levels of ZDDP won't damage them. Current wisdom is once an engine is "conditioned" with a high level of ZDDP early in it's life (during break-in) it can survive with lower ZDDP levels without undo wear. The EPA is trying to push for catalytic converters to last for 100,000 miles and to do that they need to reduce the amount of heavy metals in the gasoline and motor oils.
David Teitelbaum

[content22207]

"Current wisdom" is an overly broad generalization -- there are just as many people who claim that ZDDP levels need to stay ~12% throughout an engine's life.

Some people say yes, and some people say no. Until flat tappet engines have been run 200,000 miles on SM/SN rated oil we won't know for sure.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[David T]

A similar thing happened when they took the lead out of gasoline. Some said the end of the world was coming and others took a more reasoned view. Some said to add lead as an additive and others said it won't make much of a difference. The way it turned out is that many engines were able to live on a "No Lead" diet without any problem. The ones that couldn't ran until valve recession into the head made it necessary for a valve job and steel valve seats could be installed. If it does turn out that the Delorean PRV can't handle low ZDDP levels, worst case after more mileage than most of us will ever rack up, you will have to replace the cams and the tappets. Maybe by then there will be roller tappets available. Worse than low ZDDP levels in motor oil is the amount of alcohol (and the associated moisture) added to the stuff they are charging us $4 a gallon for when we fill the gas tanks! That causes more damage quicker than low ZDDP!
David Teitelbaum

[content22207]

I'm not willing to use my own engines as guinea pigs.

Absolutely no one has claimed that 12% ZDDP is harmful (that's what the vaunted DeLorean owner's manual calls for BTW). Since 12% ZDDP is still readily available, in oil that has exceptional overall quality, and since it only costs $2.75 per quart, I will continue to use Delo.

I should have bought several more cases last year when Wally World was selling it for $8 per gallon ($2 per quart)....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMC3165]

Anyone familiar with this product?

http://z-alt.com/

Looks like a good alternative to putting in additives. However. I never heard of it before yesterday.

[jmettee]

Chris, never heard of that. To be honest, if you keep searching, you'll find more & more options. Truth is, just use a good oil & you should be fine. If you wish, add the ZDDP for peace of mind if you're not using a 15W-50 or similar "heavy" oil with the higher ZDDP chemicals in it.

Just to add to your search, my father in law always talked about MILITEC-1. It's supposed to "chemically bond" the metal to reduce friction. Always reminded me of Slick-50 snake oil ads on TV. MILITEC-1 is a gun oil that also has automotive properties. I've never used it & I can't find jack on the internet. Our military still uses it. http://www.militec1.com/

Here's what feels to be a circa 1990 video of how it is supposed to work. I don't know what the chemical reaction is or what ingredients are used.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-COck5UTarI

[Bitsyncmaster]

Remember ARCO graphite oil? That stuff was nasty black right out of the can. The TV adds would have two engines running and they drained the oil while they ran.

[DMC3165]

I like getting feedback on different products seeing who uses what and why and so on and so forth. Alt-z was advertised in Haggerty's magazine, but I never heard of it before yesterday. I'd go with the 15w-50 synthetic but making that switch to synthetic scares me. I've heard plenty of horror stories after the switch. On another note my brother builds high performance import motors and his response to me is "oil is oil what are you worried about" he doesn't like idle chit chat sometimes. 8)

[82DMC12]

Go with Delo or Mobil Delvac 15w40. Don't worry about oil additives.

[content22207]

You all are making this harder than it needs to be. Diesel oil not only has retained most of its earlier ZDDP concentrations, but it is refined from better base stock than many S rated motor oils, and it is refined using a method that introduces fewer byproduct contaminants.

Diesel engines place greater demands on their motor oil than gasoline engines. Motor oil will make or break a diesel. By default, diesel oil is purer and more durable than many gasoline oils.

Before the introduction of low sulfur diesel fuel an argument could be made that diesel oil's detergent package was too aggressive for gasoline engines. The new CJ-4 spec rules that argument out (CJ-4's detergent package is less aggressive than CI-4).

If you catch it on sale, diesel oil can even be cheaper than gasoline oil.

There are many reasons to run diesel oil in a gasoline engine, and really no reasons not to.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[theMonch]

ZDDP is extremely popular with the Buick V6 turbo regals (Grand Nationals) As a matter of fact the additive was designed and created by a turbo Buick enthusiast (Richard Clark) I have never personally ran ZDDP. since my GN is a hydraulic roller and not Hydraulic flat tappet in the GN. I can tell you that the Buick V6 community swears by this stuff, and if you have the opportunity and live near Burlington NC, Richard puts on a Turbo Buick event every year in May (Turbo Buick Nationals) where he invites everyone to go down and see his personal collection and shop, there are speakers, vendors, he even rents the local track and eveything. It is incredible how much stuff he has. He does a talk on the need for the Zinc and Phosphate for flat tappets and gets pretty in depth chemically about it. You can watch a video on their site here (http://zddplus.com/).

I personally have used Militec-1 in everything I have owned for the last 12 or 13 years and have never had a wear problem. I started believing in it when I ran a speed shop back in the mid 90's and they came in to sell it when they first got the OK to sell it consumers (it used to be a military contract only product). We did the 2 bearings with a torque wrench attached test to see how much force that standard oils, synthetics, additives on the era (slick 50, etc.) held up. We would change the bearings every test and I personally hung off the torque lever with the militec just added to conventional oil and couldn't get the thing to seize up. Everything else would seize with just one arm pressure added. It was incredible. If I didn't perform the test myself I would have never believed it. I have a Toyaot 3VZE that I just took out of my 4Runner that has 250k on it, and there is next to no wear on it. (Took it out in favor of a bigger supercharged motor) It has had Militec in it since 90k.

Also just to note, I have no affiliation whatsoever with either product.

[GS450-Junkie]

Anyone running Lucas oil additive ?

[TTait]

My wife's car probably sat for many years at one point, it looks like about 12 years indoors. The guy who sold it to me had done some rudimentary work on the car to clean it up and see what he had, and filled it with Mobile 1. I completed the work and have been driving it for several years since.

The car still runs well, with no sign of engine troubles. Should I continue to use Mobile 1, or go back to Castrol, which is what I run in my car?