Roof Box Rust

[aludden]

Well, here I was, happily working on re-installing my newly re-covered headliners, when I noticed a rusty area behind the driver side door torsion bar. :what_the: It looks like the weatherproofing separated and the roof box rusted. It's just one spot in the middle of the door, the passenger side is fine.

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I did some searches, but only found a couple of threads on roof box rust, including one on how to paint the inside of it with POR15, and one that mentions spraying Waxoyl.

My first question is why would it separate like that. An over-tight torsion bar?

I'm not ready to replace the roof box at this point (1134 Euros from DMC EU, and major work!) so for now I will scrape all the rust I can and apply Waxoyl. Any other suggestions?

Anything else I can do to close the gap other than lots of silicone?

Thanks!
Alex

[aludden]

Actually, here is a better picture:
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[Mark D]

I'm guessing the original glue in the front part of the bracket starts to let go just like it does in the rear from the years of torsion bar spring tension.

The PO of my car coated most of that area on my car with black RTV silicone and it seems to be holding up pretty well....but if you've got serious rot and the bracket is weakened you probably want to fix the rust problem and not just coat over it.

If you remove the T panel you'll probably get a better feel for if it's just a little surface rust or if it's rotted through anywhere.

The whole upper door support bracket is the worst designed part of the entire car in my opinion... thin mild steel in a spot where water tends to collect. Should have made it stainless.

[sean]

Id get some phosphoric acid(home depot, Lowes, paint shop) and brush it on everywhere you see the rust. Be liberal with it and let it dry and repeat before you apply your sealant. The acid should stop the rusting but yours may be to far along.

[tgraham]

I've used Waxoyl 120-4 (the thin/yellow variety, not the black hard wax) inside the roof structure. This seemed like a better solution than POR-15, simply because it's a lot easier and cleaner to apply, then won't weld the wiring in there to anything once it dries. The outside/exposed metal is another story.

Judging from your photos, your roof cage seems pretty rusty, though. You may be looking at a replacement anyway. Keep in mind that Ed's website prices include EU VAT (or did the last time I checked) - that knocks off a LOT once it gets exported...

Travis

[SamHill]

At what point does this affect anything to the point that it is not working properly?

[dmcnorway]

I would replace that box ASAP. Could be dangerous if it gives in. Keep in mind the force the torsion bars have. No quick fix for this one, I'm afraid. You don't really know what's going on under the T-panel or at the rear.

Stian B.
Norway

VIN # 06759

[Elvis]

Relax, those two pics I don't seem too bad.

Take the T-Panel off and look inside the roof,
pull the connectors out and look for rust inside it.

I replaced mine with a SS one that I had made at a local shop.
It was around 300 euros plus powder coating.

Awful job !

[Patrick C]

http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=168003&cPath=167

[Bitsyncmaster]

They are all rusted unless you have stainless steel. Mine looks pretty good on the outside but pull the inspection plate and look inside and all you see is rust.

[jmettee]

They are all rusted unless you have stainless steel. Mine looks pretty good on the outside but pull the inspection plate and look inside and all you see is rust.

Exactly. Mine is beautiful on the outside, but check out the inside.
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[aludden]

Well, I got the roof T panel out, and did not like what I saw :-(

So, I have to contemplate replacing the roof box. I saw instructions in the manual about removing a door, but nothing about the roof box - it's not even shown as a part in the parts manuals.

Therefore - several questions:
. Up above, it was mentioned that at least one door has to be removed. Is there a door that is easier to remove/install, or are they about the same?
(I guess I should pick the one that is most out of alignment anyway?)
Or do I need to remove both doors?

. Is there a set of instructions on replacing the roof box?

. I have yet to decide if I want to order it from DMC.EU or to have one fabricated locally. If the latter, is there a particular grade (304?) and thickness of SS I should use?

. Are the door hinges and torsion bar brackets bolted to the roof box? In other words, is it there holding things up, or is it there just to provide additional strength to the fiberglass?

Thanks!
Alex

[DMCMW Dave]

Well, I got the roof T panel out, and did not like what I saw :-(

. Up above, it was mentioned that at least one door has to be removed. Is there a door that is easier to remove/install, or are they about the same?
(I guess I should pick the one that is most out of alignment anyway?)
Or do I need to remove both doors?
---?

. Are the door hinges and torsion bar brackets bolted to the roof box? In other words, is it there holding things up, or is it there just to provide additional strength to the fiberglass?

Thanks!
Alex

You have to remove both doors. They are bolted through the box. There are actually studs on the inside of the car that go through the fiberglass, then the steel, then the hinges.

Torsion bar brackets are bolted to the roof box only.

What problem are you trying to solve? Some rust is not the end of the world. Do you have signs of structural failure, i.e. the doors won't close, windshield won't fit, holes in the side of the box near the wiring, etc?

This is an absolutely huge job that can usually be stalled for a long time.

[aludden]

You have to remove both doors. They are bolted through the box. There are actually studs on the inside of the car that go through the fiberglass, then the steel, then the hinges.

Torsion bar brackets are bolted to the roof box only.

What problem are you trying to solve? Some rust is not the end of the world. Do you have signs of structural failure, i.e. the doors won't close, windshield won't fit, holes in the side of the box near the wiring, etc?

This is an absolutely huge job that can usually be stalled for a long time.

Well, it started with my seeing a rusty gap on the roof behind the torsion bar, as you can see in my first and second posts.

Now I opened the top, and this is what see:
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Not pretty. But, I am not having any problems at all. Some of the posts above did make it sound like the end of the world, so I'm trying to see my options. Obviously, I would rather not have to do anything!

I want to go to DCS in June (700 mi each way), and would rather not have the car fold in half on me :-)

But it does sound like more than I'd be willing to handle right now. I did buy the anti-rust stuff from Eastwood (http://www.eastwood.com/ew-anti-rust-aerosol-with-ext-nozzle-amber.html), and I can smother it with that, but I'm not sure if that will help at all. Unfortunately, there's really not much to see unless the whole box is removed, but it doesn't look too promising.

Again, I am not having any problems with the doors or windshield, or structural noises, and the sides of the box look good through the access port.

Alex

[Bitsyncmaster]

Get that stuff vacuumed out of there and then you can decide. I think the most structural part is where the torsion bars clamp at the back. You typically see the metal bending (folding) and it lifts off the glass bond.

That metal is epoxied onto the roof glass and is a major project even the pros don't want to do.

[aludden]

I see. What you're all saying is that it's not something to change because it's rusty - it can wait until it causes a problem.
Can something really bad happen, or is it mostly problems with the doors not closing properly?
I've just spent more than 6K on the car, so I don't mind waiting...

Alex

[DeLorean]

I would be somewhat concerned with the "wait and see" approach if there is serious visually apparent rust due to the potential of a structural failure over rough road or in case of an accident. The DeLo isn't the safest car on the road, and if you have less than 50% of the original roof box structure remaining... well that adds to the questionability.

I know the roof box is a big project, but it might be worth it for your piece of mind in the future, especially if you intend to keep the car well into the future, and you KNOW it is going to eventually need one. Once you have a properly installed stainless unit, the new roof box is going to out last you.

I had a dream last night that my driver side hinge broke off and the door separated. What a nightmare! Apparently, a rusty roof box can put stress on many different components when things start to get bad. Warped doors, broken hinges, broken torsion bars, broken brackets. My roof box looks perfect externally, but I think I should probably paint the whole thing with POR-15 anyway, inside and out. Keep in mind, some parts can't be gotten anymore. Driver door hinge and torsion bar come to mind, and a stainless roof box might just be cheap insurance if you don't want those going wrong on you.

[DMC5180]

Their was a well documented thread about Roof Structure replacement on the old .com. It was done by someone in Australia or New Zealand. That person used the Original 3-piece roof structure made by DMCEU. DMCEU no longer supplies them in 3-piece versions and has them welded for to be 1-piece.

Back in early 2010 I met a guy who was contemplating roof structure repair. I had the chance to see the car up close. It was scary to say the least. He had major swiss cheese rot. Most of which was in the center portion. Since the original structure is 3 pieces. He opted to have a local Fab shop replicate the center piece, which is a basic hat section piece. I would not have done it that way because it only addressed 80% of the rust issues, but that's just me. If your gonna fix something do it right the first time. I thick he had about $150 in the fabricated piece when all was said and done. Unfortunately, this was a car that had been left to rot under a tree in someone's backyard for 19 years. That roof structure rot was only small part of the overall picture for his car. He ultimately made the best decision for him, which was to sell the car to someone who could do it better justice than he could and start saving up for better one that comes along. I haven't talked with him since he sold the car (Someone in Europe bought it) That was a year ago. I'd don't know if he is got another one or put his Delorean Ownership on hold.

[aludden]

Has anyone saved that thread to share again?

[dvonk]

i hope so, it was a really good thread with lots of detailed photos...

[Sidaries]

On the .com site I wrote that I had a roof reconstruction in the beginning of 2010. I show a few pictures how it looked like. I have to say, that from the sight of the torsion bar area I did not think, that so much rust will be there. The last picture is how it looks like now.

[DMC5180]

This is Great. Thanks for posting them. Did you import your car from the U.S. or acquire it in Europe?

The .com thread I referenced earlier, actually replaced the whole roof structure with the stainless one.

[aludden]

On the .com site I wrote that I had a roof reconstruction in the beginning of 2010. I show a few pictures how it looked like. I have to say, that from the sight of the torsion bar area I did not think, that so much rust will be there. The last picture is how it looks like now.

Thank you for the pictures! I am still trying to figure out how it goes... Is it like a rectangular tube that runs down the middle of the roof? On the fifth picture, are we looking at the "floor" of the roof box, upside down?

[aludden]

Actually, I just found a detailed video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m3lg3xRUFE

[DMC5180]

WOW! What great Video. That belongs in tech videos listing.

[aludden]

WOW! What great Video. That belongs in tech videos listing.

:offtopic: He also did a beautiful restoration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWfuvk88uc

[DMC5180]

:offtopic: He also did a beautiful restoration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQWfuvk88uc

I'm sorry, I didn't think suggesting a very well done video showing the process of roof structure replacement be added to a future Technical/informational video resource list was OFF TOPIC. I've seen his other in process restoration videos he has done. The work is impeccable. I can't imagine the $$$$$ he has spent on it being in Norway.

Back on topic: What else would you like to see or know regarding the the roof or has your interest been satisfied?

[aludden]

I'm sorry, I didn't think suggesting a very well done video showing the process of roof structure replacement be added to a future Technical/informational video resource list was OFF TOPIC. I've seen his other in process restoration videos he has done. The work is impeccable. I can't imagine the $$$$$ he has spent on it being in Norway.

Back on topic: What else would you like to see or know regarding the the roof or has your interest been satisfied?

No, I meant the full restoration video I then posted was off-topic, but it was from the same source.

He obviously has a bigger budget than I do :-)
So now I have to figure out how to proceed.

Thanks for your help!
Alex

[DMC5180]

:thumbup:

[Sidaries]

This is Great. Thanks for posting them. Did you import your car from the U.S. or acquire it in Europe?

The .com thread I referenced earlier, actually replaced the whole roof structure with the stainless one.

I imported it from the USA. It was a great experience, but I do not want to do it again. :)
This replacement for my car is not stainless, however I was not there personally. The previous one lasted for 30 years, I hope the current one will last for that time too. I thought about Ed's stainless roof, but it is too expensive. This way how we did was only 350$. Quite cheap.

Aludden: Sorry, as I said I was not there, so I cannot help, which part is which one, but if you need, I can post more pictures.

[DMCMW Dave]

I'm not sure who (that name-alias thing again) I was talking to on the phone yesterday, but I've cofirmed that the DMC-EU roof section needs to be all 3 new pieces. The new SS center section will not fit with the OE steel.

Not that you'd really want to go through the trouble.

[DMC5180]

Is the original roof box bonded in the center section area or just the end pieces? The Pictures and video make it appear that it isn't.

[Fluxat88MPH]

I'm not sure who (that name-alias thing again) I was talking to on the phone yesterday, but I've cofirmed that the DMC-EU roof section needs to be all 3 new pieces. The new SS center section will not fit with the OE steel.

Not that you'd really want to go through the trouble.

It's also been my experience that Ed's SS roof section isn't an exact fit due to some differences in body molds. Parts of the front section by the windshield need to be cut, bent, and re-welded to fit the shape/arch correctly. This may be different from car to car, and one reason why Ed prefers to do the job at his shop, or a DMC vendor because its not plug and play. What has been your exprience Dave?

[DMCMW Dave]

Is the original roof box bonded in the center section area or just the end pieces? The Pictures and video make it appear that it isn't.

I believe it was all bonded, even if not the replacements generally are.


It's also been my experience that Ed's SS roof section isn't an exact fit due to some differences in body molds. Parts of the front section by the windshield need to be cut, bent, and re-welded to fit the shape/arch correctly. This may be different from car to car, and one reason why Ed prefers to do the job at his shop, or a DMC vendor because its not plug and play. What has been your exprience Dave?

That's the interesting part. I have not done any at our shop. Houston has done several, and I was able to observe a couple in process. In my experience the original has to be pretty far gone to impact the structural integrity of the roof. The cars we've seen that were that bad had enough other issues that it didn't make sense to the owner in light of the rest of the car. It is overall a very rare repair so far, although that will likely change in the future. In the overall scheme of things, frame rot is much more of an issue.

I'm sure now that I've said this I'll get a couple of cars in here that were parked on the oceanfront for a decade or two . . .. .

Anyone claiming to do "lots of them" is either overselling the process or sees cars that are in much worse shape than what we have been working on.

[Delorean Industries]

We have done a "good number" here including three on my personal cars to learn the process first as I didn't see it fit to perform the install for the first time on a customer vehicles. Every install some how takes on different dynamics and issues occur. I have yet to find anything repetitive about the process.

Only two have been because the roof had completely failed on customer cars. All additional have been from complete restorations where the owner wants the best regardless of cost.

Even our version is far from plug and play. I will not sell it out of the shop. Lots of fitting and modifying is required.

[Fluxat88MPH]

Anyone claiming to do "lots of them" is either overselling the process or sees cars that are in much worse shape than what we have been working on.

Or their full of it.

[opethmike]

they're*

[Delorean Industries]

Or their full of it.

Well if Dave has yet to install one then you are stating that we have not actually been actively installing replacements for years? Not sure who else is around doing this.....

[Fluxat88MPH]

Well if Dave has yet to install one then you are stating that we have not actually been actively installing replacements for years? Not sure who else is around doing this.....

Had nothing to do with you Josh.

Good looking out mike, "they're" stupid auto spell check on my phone.

[Delorean Industries]

Here is a picture of a recent install here.

I have no problem with coming out and explaining the mess roof box installs intially were here. Installing is half the battle. We never tested the dynamics of the bonding adhesives first used. My personal cars still need to be disassembled and corrected. We had only one customer car that required a complete tear down again. The issue was the prep on the fiberglass for the adhesive. Ended up also changing adhesives as well.

My comment on installing roof boxes for the forum record:

"If you drop a car off completely disassembled doors off etc you might as well replace the box during a frame off restoration. If you want the best possible restoration without corners cut that is what we provide. With everything else being completed to refurbish the tub the stainless part is included in our price. SW produces this part for us at a fraction of the cost compared to the UK version. Our quoted cost for a box replacement reflects this. Even before we stopped doing business with DMC we purchased at least four boxes with two installed and two sold off to owners. I still have a few on the shelf from our first run by SW and will probably install both before the end of the year "

I can't believe other vendors have in the past produced "build cars" when this part is available to them. If the doors are off replace the part. Profit margins only matter so much.

[Delorean Industries]

Had nothing to do with you Josh.

Good looking out mike, "they're" stupid auto spell check on my phone.

fair enough!