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View Full Version : Engine Engine eval. and rebuilding advice (& how-to get engine onto a stand all by youelf)



TTait
06-10-2011, 03:01 AM
I have my original engine on a stand now, and don't have a particular plan for rebuilding it. I'm not in a position to put a lot of money into it currently anyway, but here is the situation...

The engine had about 75k miles on it. It failed after installing a set of Don Stegers cams, which in itself were not the problem. It was pulled and replaced when a mechanic noted very poor compression. Upon pulling the heads after swapping the engine there are notable impact marks on all 6 pistons from the exhaust valves. It turns out that the mechanic who adjusted the valves after the cam swap never tightened the locking nuts on the valve adjusters, and they backed off and started colliding with the pistons.

Although the mechanic doing the assessment at the time said that I had probably blown seals at the bottom of the liners, it seems pretty clear to me that the exhaust valves got bent and that was the compression problem.

I'll have no problems per se having the heads looked over and valves replaced as needed, I have a good rebuilder locally for that.

Although its possible that I could just rework the heads and reassemble, I wouldn't know if it was right until I someday put it in a car, and that sounds like a terrific gamble.

I've attached a photo of a couple of the damaged pistons, all are similar. I have been told that trying to run the engine again with these pistons in this condition would lead to hot spots and cause a lot more trouble. I presume that a decent machine shop could polish/debur them, but I don't know if that would create a thinner spot on the piston that would eventually lead to more damage.

I purchased a spare set of used pistons a few years back on a lark, but I'm not clear on how to evaluate their condition.

The mechanic who pulled the engine also removed the heads at one point in the process, I have guarantee that he did it properly and/or that the bottom seals are still intact, so I assume those need to get done too.

Finally, the engine still has oil in it (2 years old but probably only 500 miles of use. The oil pan is leaking slowly and I'm assuming there is no reason not to drain out the rest of the oil now, even if I don't start the rebuild for a year or two.

My short term plan is then to drain the oil, spray a bit of WD40 onto the top of the pistons and perhaps into any water passage I can get at, and then try to work out how much needs to get replaced. I'm definitely a "while your in there" sort of guy and I'm not feeling rushed, but budget is currently a concern.

So...

How far to I go now (on a limited budget) on an exploritory disassembly so that I can work out a plan for what does and does not need to get done? What steps should I take to prevent any degradation of the engine from here forward.

If I had unlimited funds at this point I'd rebuild everything, and upgrade where I could. I'd consider a port and polish, I'd powdercoat, I'd have a long talk with Ed Uding about possibly upgrading to his higher compression pistons and or consider having the (original) cams milled down a bit. I'd consider looking at rebuilding it as a 3.0 - I'm open to upgrades in HP or reliability - just not budgeted for it.

Finally, If anyone has parts they feel I might need that they got in the past and now realize they will never actually use, let me know, maybe we can trade foe some other used parts I might have or something. I have some time (hopefully not too much) while temporarily unemployed to do some work on this, but little money.

So, suggestions? Questions?

Tom

PS - I know we have all lost sleep pondering this question: yes it is possible to get a prv off the floor of the garage and up onto an engine stand without a helper or a hoist:

Put a 2 x 4 under the back of the engine and use it as a fulcrum to lift the engine just enough to get a floor jack under it, its heavy but you can hold it with one hand and push the jack under with the other. Then roll the engine stand onto its side and bolt it up to the engine. Slowly raise the jack, I got enough lift to take the engine stand from sideways to just more than 45 degrees upright. At this point its high enough that you can easily pull the stand upright. Piece of cake - took 15 minutes and the wife didn't have to help

TTait
06-10-2011, 03:06 AM
878

Bitsyncmaster
06-10-2011, 08:49 AM
I would not trust those pistons to last. Even if the thickness of the top of the piston is not the problem, it probably induced many stress points.

David T
06-10-2011, 10:11 AM
I agree the pistons should be replaced. I still do not understand how this happened. When the locking nut is loose the adjuster loosens so it won't open the valve enough, not too much. Anyway with 75,000 miles you will not get away with "just" pistons. All of the bearings should be measured and all seals replaced. If the liners aren't worn much you might get away with just pistons and rings for hard parts. If you want "El Cheapo" you just dress the pistons up with a hand grinder and replace the exhaust valves. Done all the time to add clearance for the valves but usually BEFORE you crash the valves into them! Won't cost much this way so it may be worth taking the chance. Mostly your time and a gasket set.
David Teitelbaum

Mike C.
06-10-2011, 10:16 AM
I would not trust those pistons to last. Even if the thickness of the top of the piston is not the problem, it probably induced many stress points.

Agreed. That's some decent impact on those poor pistons. Take the set of used pistons to the shop you know that rebuilds heads and have them check them out as well.

I know there are some purists out there that may give me some flack, but in my mind I just don't see upgrading the PRV as a good investment vs. the potential output. I'm completely aware of people out there that do mod these things, but I think if you are going to do a rebuild, I would just rebuild it as a stock PRV.

I say have the cyl. linings cleaned up, get a new set of rings and pistons, slap her back together, get your heads looked at and replace the screwed valves, inspect your cams, and replace all of your seals. Good opportunity for a nice rebuild project that shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. Plus you can do all kinds of upgrading and custom work that you have been meaning to do. It's a good opportunity.

TTait
06-10-2011, 02:17 PM
Thanks for the advice.

I'm not 100% clear on what happened with the valves hitting the pistons. All this happened two years ago or was it 3?

I put in the taller cams as part of job to replace the head gaskets, and adjusted the valves to the specs that came with them. I turned the engine over very slowly by hand while doing that with no impacts, and the engine ran great with no compression problems evident, and very good power. The only problem was that the the valves were making a little more noise that I was used to, so I took the car to a very reputable prv mechanic who had all the right cam specs, and experience with these cams.

I got the car back and it was quiet and ran well for about a week with good power - then it died while I was idling at a light. I sent it back and the mechanic calls and apologizes and says they didn't tighten the locking nuts on the valve adjusters, and that he was taking care of it at no cost - sorry. When I went to pick up the car it had terrible power. WTF?

I left it and the next day the mechanic says that now that the valves are properly adjusted, the higher compression probably blew out the seals at the base of the liners and who knows what else. He blamed it on a combination of a tired engine and the new cams - he ended up putting in a 15k mile engine for me at a reasonable price, and I got the original engine back to rebuild eventually.

When I picked up the car it ran great, and has ever since, but he said he had no idea what had blown or why I lost compression. Once I eventually pulled the heads I found the damage he had never noticed, despite the fact I know the heads had been off the engine while he was doing the engine and cam swap.

Short story, I don't know what condition the engine is really in except that it last ran well enough to run, but with awful compression - and then the heads came off and possibly lifted the liners.

Fortunately, as of now I have a good engine in the car, so there is no rush.

content22207
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
There's no combustion pressure at the liner seals. Their only purpose is to keep antifreeze out of the crankcase.

Are you sure you got the new cam shafts lined up correctly relative to the crank? Piston impacts like that are usually a result of camshaft/crankshaft timing, like a timing chain jumping a tooth. The fact that all pistons have identical damage sure makes it look like the camshafts were off.

The DeLorean Workshop Manual is pretty sketchy when it comes to timing chain installation. Volvo literature is 10,000 times better. Not only does it break the procedure down into more steps (6 pages worth!), but each step is illustrated with photographs, not line drawings. This is a different procedure of course, but it is representative of what Volvo literature looks like:
886 887 888 889
I used to have dozens of pages of Volvo scans on the old DMCTalk website (anybody feel like resurrecting the archives...). Later tonight I'll scan and post the timing chain procedure.

Bill Robertson
#5939

DMCMW Dave
06-10-2011, 03:43 PM
Bent valves = bad compression. Hitting the pistons like that will definitely bend them.

TTait
06-10-2011, 07:29 PM
Are you sure you got the new cam shafts lined up correctly relative to the crank?

I'm pretty sure I nailed that. At first I used angle and clamps to try to keep the cam sprockets in position while reworking the heads, but in the end one of them had sagged at some point and I wasn't sure if something may have jumped, so I pulled the entire rear fascia, the pulley and rear cover and followed the steps int he manually with painstaking care. It wasn't fun, but I was very clear at the time about all of it, and as I was slowly cranking the engine by hand to there were no impacts with the pistons at that time, including several revolutions after the timing and valve adjustments were completed. It started easily and ran smoothly with nice power.

If I only had impacts on one set of pistons I'd agree that the timing may have been off with one of the chains, but the only way I would have had all 6 cylinders out of time the same amount is if the lower sprocket assembly was not keyed properly into the main crank. To duplicate the same mistake twice the same way seems unlikely.

tgraham
06-10-2011, 07:36 PM
Volvo literature is 10,000 times better. Not only does it break the procedure down into more steps (6 pages worth!), but each step is illustrated with photographs, not line drawings.

I'll second that. I picked up a couple of Volvo B27/B28 reconditioning manuals a long time ago - well worth the (low) price on eBay.

Travis

content22207
06-10-2011, 10:16 PM
As promised, scans from Volvo literature Re: timing chain replacement (1979, 1983, and 1985 manuals -- illustrations vary slightly between them):
942 944 938 943 934 936 930 935 940 945 941 932 933 946 939 937 931

Bill Robertson
#5939

ramblinmike
06-10-2011, 11:57 PM
Thanks for the scans! I added them to my DMC "Bible".

Mike C.
06-11-2011, 07:13 AM
As promised, scans from Volvo literature Re: timing chain replacement (1979, 1983, and 1985 manuals -- illustrations vary slightly between them):

Bill Robertson
#5939

VERY cool.

content22207
06-11-2011, 07:51 AM
As Travis mentioned, Volvo literature is readily obtainable on eBay (also nice plastic binders to hold it). It totally runs circles around the Workshop Manual. Volvo made illustrative and format changes over the years, so I recommend buying several vintages of the Engine Rebuilding groups.

Bill Robertson
#5939

DCUK Martin
06-11-2011, 08:21 AM
For actually fitting the chains, the Renault destructions are easy to follow (I believe these are duplicated in the DMC manual? It's been so long since I've looked at it!)

976977

content22207
06-11-2011, 09:22 AM
Guess Martin just saved himself $10-$20 on a set of Volvo manuals -- enough to buy a pizza and drinks for himself and a friend.

Bill Robertson
#5939

DCUK Martin
06-11-2011, 09:43 AM
Wha? :confused:

The Renault manual is downloadable for free, I have an original anyway, why would I want the Volvo manual?

content22207
06-11-2011, 10:05 AM
You've made it abundantly clear that you don't want or need Volvo literature. To the best of my knowledge nobody is forcing you to even look at it, much less obtain personal copies. That is good.

Please extend the same courtesy to the rest of us.

Bill Robertson
#5939

TTait
06-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Perhaps we can take a step back and all behave like gentlemen for a moment. (I started the thread - I get to say that!)

So, Martin. You mentioned that the Renault manuals are downloadable for free. If you happened to have a url for that I'd certainly appreciate seeing it...

Bill, it was very kind of you to post those scans.

It will be a shame for this information to just get buried in this thread, which no one will be browsing in another week or two. Would it be appropriate to put the scans, and perhaps a link to the Renault manual download over in the Resources section?

DCUK Martin
06-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Not quite sure what Bill was getting at - I just wanted to add the Renault info to the table.

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/prv_engine.htm

content22207
06-11-2011, 02:45 PM
There are dozens of pages of Volvo scans on the old website archives, if anyone in a position of power ever feels like transferring them here....

FYI: This is what I keep in my plastic binder:
- CI Fuel Injection System B27F (1979, 46 pages)
- Repairs and Maintenance B27F (1979, 191 pages)
- CI Fuel Injection System B27/B28 (1983, 131 pages)
- Reconditioning Engine B27/B28 (1983, 63 pages)
- Repairs and Maintenance B27/B28 (1983, 169 Pages) -- this one includes A Series
- Fault Tracing Repair and Maintenance B28F (1985, 115 pages)
- Design and Function B28F (1985, 24 pages)
It would be a massive undertaking to scan it all.

I've got Renault's Eurospec K-Jet manual as well if anyone's interested. It looks a little bit like an old fashioned student's term paper, typed on a manual typewriter, but is does have some interesting cutaway line drawings:
980 979 982 981
It's only 57 pages, so I might be able to scan it in its entirety.

Don't forget the Bosch K-Jet manual is on Dave Swingle's website: http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf

Bill Robertson
#5939

TTait
06-11-2011, 10:45 PM
Nothing here makes it look like I got the cam timing wrong.

Hey, would it matter if I had .25" milled off the heads when they were rebuilt?

Just kidding.

Thanks for the posts guys.

bunni
07-17-2011, 01:30 AM
content22207,

I would like to see those scans uploaded, might come in handy :D

content22207
07-18-2011, 12:48 AM
2754

Appears the site is back to its normal.

Bill Robertson
#5939