3.0 Conversion step by step

[nullset]

Hi all,

I've got a 3.0 engine and am thinking about swapping it in to one of my cars. It is complete, and I have the new lower crankcase and a new oil pan so that I don't have to disassemble either of my engines to work on this one.

Anyone that's done this before, what else is needed? If I don't do anything to the internals of the 3.0, will it perform any better than stock? How much better?

What should I do to it before deciding to put it into one of my cars? Rebuild it? Have the heads ported/polished/etc?

What other parts are needed for a 3.0 conversion? Will it be even fire after the conversion, or odd fire, or is that something I can choose? If it's something I can choose, why would I choose one over the other?

As I do this conversion, I will document what I'm doing. That's why I'm asking some very basic questions.

--buddy

[Spittybug]

Are you planning to EFI this engine, is that why you have posted here?

[nullset]

Are you planning to EFI this engine, is that why you have posted here?

Yes. I'm not aware of any K-Jet 3.0s. The 3.0L comes with EFI by default.

I know Josh at DPI sells a trigger wheel that sits where the distributor would normally go, to feed a megasquirt or other EFI controller.

--buddy

[Farrar]

Is either of your DeLoreans an automatic? If memory serves, the flexplate from the Eagle Premier is exactly the same as the flexplate for an automatic D. I'd put it on the automatic. (I originally wanted to be the first person to have a 3.0L EFI automatic, but I would gladly watch someone else be the first!)

[nullset]

Is either of your DeLoreans an automatic? If memory serves, the flexplate from the Eagle Premier is exactly the same as the flexplate for an automatic D. I'd put it on the automatic. (I originally wanted to be the first person to have a 3.0L EFI automatic, but I would gladly watch someone else be the first!)

The project car is currently an automatic, but I might be converting it to manual, if I can get all the parts together, and enough free time to actually do it…..

[Josh]

If anyone is interested in this, I am currently working on a step by step install of a 3.0. Im putting my engine together right now So I can add to this thread in a month or so. Just the engine related assembly for now.

[ALEXAKOS]

sorry for my kindergarden question...
Why is everybody swapping into the 3.0:driving1:

[Josh]

Cheap, easy to obtain, and it is a PRV so it bolts right up the the transmission.

[ALEXAKOS]

Cheap, easy to obtain, and it is a PRV so it bolts right up the the transmission.
Oh, so it is not a selection of a better engine?
It is just a locally (US) easy adaptation.

[Josh]

Well it is a better engine, thanks to 10 years of updates and improvements. MUCH better F/I system, serpentine belt, and the internals can handle more power. Im sure there are more benefits but those are the big ones. The avalability in N/A is good, as the cars were manufactured here (in canada actually :))

For me it was a lazy swap. I needed a new engine and did not want to waste my time with the stock engine and the primitive fuel injection (dont get me wrong it was good in its day). I found the 3.0 for $200 and it bolted right in. If I didnt have the whole rest of the car to redo and could just focus on the engine I would have done something completely different. But I do not have the time/money to do that right now. So the 3.0 is a great middle ground.

[Dangermouse]

Alex

PRVs in the states are limited to the D and the Eagle Premier (which is a rebadged Renault) 3.0. There isn't the same range of turbo'd PRVs that Renault used in Europe over the years.

As Josh mentioned, it is probably the most straightforward engine swap, particularly for someone with a bad/missing original engine.

[SEO Motorsports]

Dodge Monaco too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/90-91-MONACO-ENGINE-6-181-3-0L-VIN-U-225-/270937350588?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f151fe1bc&vxp=mtr

[nullset]

Well it is a better engine, thanks to 10 years of updates and improvements. MUCH better F/I system, serpentine belt, and the internals can handle more power. Im sure there are more benefits but those are the big ones. The avalability in N/A is good, as the cars were manufactured here (in canada actually :))

For me it was a lazy swap. I needed a new engine and did not want to waste my time with the stock engine and the primitive fuel injection (dont get me wrong it was good in its day). I found the 3.0 for $200 and it bolted right in. If I didnt have the whole rest of the car to redo and could just focus on the engine I would have done something completely different. But I do not have the time/money to do that right now. So the 3.0 is a great middle ground.

I've never heard it described as "bolted right in".

From what I understand, you have to swap the lower crank case and come up with a new fuel injection / spark management system like megasquirt, and add a crankshaft position sensor of some sort, because the stock 3.0 position sensor won't fit with the delorean transmission.

Am I mistaken?

What did you use for managing the fuel/spark?

[Josh]

I've never heard it described as "bolted right in".

From what I understand, you have to swap the lower crank case and come up with a new fuel injection / spark management system like megasquirt, and add a crankshaft position sensor of some sort, because the stock 3.0 position sensor won't fit with the delorean transmission.

Am I mistaken?

What did you use for managing the fuel/spark?

I am saying it bolts in compared to anyother swap that requires custom mounts and trans adapter plates. with the loose 2.8 lower crank case, it can be installed on the 3.0 in an evening, not a very big job but you need to have the right tools (angular torque wrench)

You are correct with your understandings.

I have not gotten to electrics but I am planning on using MS2. An edis-6 ignition setup will also be used to eliminate the distributor. Like you mentioned, a 36-1 trigger wheel will be adapted to the crank pulley. When I get around to making that I will make sure it is available if anyone wants the same setup.

[Farrar]

Could the Eagle Premier ECU be used in lieu of MegaSquirt, or are they all assumed to be unusable after sitting in a junkyard for so many years?

[Josh]

Could the Eagle Premier ECU be used in lieu of MegaSquirt, or are they all assumed to be unusable after sitting in a junkyard for so many years?

Yes it could but the trigger wheel needs to be removed to the flex plate and attached to the flywheel. The transmission bellhousing needs to be modified for clearance and the CPS mounted. Also since the lower casing is switched the knock sensor is not present so that would have to be refitted. Protodelorean tried this and could not get the car to fire.

I thought about this method but there is so so so much support for MS and it allows for so much flexibility and customization.

Say you do get it running, you are using an ancient computer from a lesser known car with no support. You have a rats nest of wiring and it is a pain to troubleshoot the frankensystem.

[Farrar]

Whoo! Nice shootin' Tex! But can I post a couple of follow-up targets?


Yes it could but the trigger wheel needs to be removed to the flex plate and attached to the flywheel.

...if you're swapping on a manual. What about an automatic? The flexplate is the same. Does that mean more or less work?


you are using an ancient computer from a lesser known car with no support. You have a rats nest of wiring and it is a pain to troubleshoot the frankensystem.

Ah, a lesser-known car with no support. So, kind of like a DeLorean with K-Jet?

The Premier/Monaco ECU sends trouble codes. And you can buy Eagle Premier repair manuals online. I don't know how much that would cost compared to MegaSquirt. If it were me, I'd at least try the stock ECU, especially if it came with the engine or could be had for a few bucks more -- and, if it didn't work, cough up for MegaSquirt. But that's just me.

[Josh]

Whoo! Nice shootin' Tex! But can I post a couple of follow-up targets?



...if you're swapping on a manual. What about an automatic? The flexplate is the same. Does that mean more or less work?



Ah, a lesser-known car with no support. So, kind of like a DeLorean with K-Jet?

The Premier/Monaco ECU sends trouble codes. And you can buy Eagle Premier repair manuals online. I don't know how much that would cost compared to MegaSquirt. If it were me, I'd at least try the stock ECU, especially if it came with the engine or could be had for a few bucks more -- and, if it didn't work, cough up for MegaSquirt. But that's just me.

I am not familiar with the delorean auto trans, nor do I ever have any intent to be familiar with it. So I cannot answer that question :P

That is true! However people do not take the same liking and pride to their eagles / monacos (1988-1992) as us owners do with our deloreans. I challenge you to go find a wiring diagram on google for the eagle. You can find one for the delorean in about a minute. No such luck with the eagle. The knowledgebase is not there. I know that was a small example in the scheme of things but it proves a point

I am budgeting 1500 for my megasuirt setup. The actual megasquirt specific parts are $800, and the res of the money will be spent on sensors, mounts, fuses, relays, etc.
Some people may prefer to stick with stock. But I like to muck with things and hopefully add a turbo one day. All the egr systems have been removed from my engine as well. No chance you can do that with a stock ecu.

My opinion is if you are going to do the swap why waste your time making it run off of 20+ year old electronics. The wiring would take similar amounts of time, as everything still has to be gone through and integrated into the deorean fuse box and harnesses. And as for diagnostics I would much prefer plugging in my laptop and having ful live readouts of every sensor, air and fuel maps, etc instead of a one or two line generic code.

[SProfita]

Are there part numbers available for the megasquirt needed?

[Josh]

Are there part numbers available for the megasquirt needed?

Im selling my megasquirt ecu if you are interested. Its a small part of the puzzle but a key component. MS2 3.57. I just sold off most of the components I used in my 3.0 swap.

[nullset]

Im selling my megasquirt ecu if you are interested. Its a small part of the puzzle but a key component. MS2 3.57. I just sold off most of the components I used in my 3.0 swap.

What are you using instead?

[Josh]

What are you using instead?

For an ECU, im moving up to a MS3x

For an engine, see attached :o

[louielouie2000]

For an ECU, im moving up to a MS3x

For an engine, see attached :o

I'm so glad to see more people are starting to take the LS plunge! It answers all the problems the PRV presents. It's reliable; but parts are off the shelf, plentiful, and cheap if needed. Aftermarket support can't be matched. Easily modifiable for big power gains at a relatively small cost. Gobs of low-end torque. The engine is extremely compact and weighs about the same as a turbo or supercharged PRV. 3x the power of the PRV without the added mechanical complexity & heat of turbo or superchargers. Now if only a vendor would start specializing in LS swaps... :biggrin:

[Delorean Industries]

I'm so glad to see more people are starting to take the LS plunge! It answers all the problems the PRV presents. It's reliable; but parts are off the shelf, plentiful, and cheap if needed. Aftermarket support can't be matched. Easily modifiable for big power gains at a relatively small cost. Gobs of low-end torque. The engine is extremely compact and weighs about the same as a turbo or supercharged PRV. 3x the power of the PRV without the added mechanical complexity & heat of turbo or superchargers. Now if only a vendor would start specializing in LS swaps... :biggrin:

That will never happen. The only problem with the PRV is owner neglect. You will never see a delorean specific vendor shoeing in Ls engines. Especially not DPI. Casting blocks and heads to my development specs. Pro PRV for life.

[Josh]

I'm so glad to see more people are starting to take the LS plunge! It answers all the problems the PRV presents. It's reliable; but parts are off the shelf, plentiful, and cheap if needed. Aftermarket support can't be matched. Easily modifiable for big power gains at a relatively small cost. Gobs of low-end torque. The engine is extremely compact and weighs about the same as a turbo or supercharged PRV. 3x the power of the PRV without the added mechanical complexity & heat of turbo or superchargers. Now if only a vendor would start specializing in LS swaps... :biggrin:

Nailed it! Basically my reasoning behind the swap.

Like Josh said I doubt a vendor would ever offer this engine as a swap. Or any non-prv engine really.
However, if someone is interested in a set of mounts and an adapter plate I would certainly be able to help them out. Not any time soon though.

[nullset]

Nailed it! Basically my reasoning behind the swap.

Like Josh said I doubt a vendor would ever offer this engine as a swap. Or any non-prv engine really.
However, if someone is interested in a set of mounts and an adapter plate I would certainly be able to help them out. Not any time soon though.

I just wish I could put the factory original Chevy V8 that they all came with back in.

I don't know who installed all these PRV V6's!

</sarcasm>

[louielouie2000]

That will never happen. The only problem with the PRV is owner neglect. You will never see a delorean specific vendor shoeing in Ls engines. Especially not DPI. Casting blocks and heads to my development specs. Pro PRV for life.

I know it would never happen from you or any of the DMC-Texas affiliates, but it would be neat to see somebody like Eddie G start specializing in LS swaps.

I love the direction you're taking the PRV in, by the way. You have my utmost respect for pushing the PRV into territory nobody else has dared to on this side of the pond. The Twin Press setup especially looks to be quite impressive. I guess I just wonder after an owner spends $30,000 on it, and pretty much none of the internal or external components are exchangeable with the stock B28F, and your shop is the only one who knows how it all goes together or will service it.... what exactly the benefits are over a swap like Josh is doing? I realize your components & craftsmanship are regarded as the best in the DeLorean community, by FAR. So I'm not denigrating what you're doing one iota. I guess I just worry about an already esoteric powertrain being pushed into the esoteric stratosphere.

[opethmike]

I really, really wish that people would stop calling the PRV unreliable.

[Josh]

I really, really wish that people would stop calling the PRV unreliable.

You're unreliable.

[opethmike]

You're unreliable.

This, I can not deny. In fact, I still owe you a shift isolation boot.

[Nicholas R]

That will never happen. The only problem with the PRV is owner neglect. You will never see a delorean specific vendor shoeing in Ls engines. Especially not DPI. Casting blocks and heads to my development specs. Pro PRV for life.

Just as a philosophical question, at what point do PRV modifications and changes, make the engine just as non-stock as an engine swap?

I mean, it's one thing to run a stock engine for the sake or originality, but if you change everything that was stock on a PRV (pistons, intake, EFI, new head castings, different cams, turbos, exhaust, etc.), are you still really able to say its "original"? Is it worth all that to still be able to say "it's still a PRV"?

Just something I've thought about a lot. For me the answer was, "no it's not worth it, 6 bolt main bearings here I come! :wrenchin:". I suppose for some though it is worth it.

Hell, truthfully, (this is all just my opinion) given John DeLoreans history, to me a GM V8 always seemed to be more in line with what the original vision was for the car. Especially if you read through some of the old documentation and biographies where he talks about his dissatisfaction with the output of the PRV platform. Just sayin :wink::burnout:

Not trying to put anyone down, just stating someone I think about a lot. I'm curious what other people think. :thumbup:

[aotmfilms]

Just as a philosophical question, at what point do PRV modifications and changes, make the engine just as non-stock as an engine swap?

I mean, it's one thing to run a stock engine for the sake or originality, but if you change everything that was stock on a PRV (pistons, intake, EFI, new head castings, different cams, turbos, exhaust, etc.), are you still really able to say its "original"? Is it worth all that to still be able to say "it's still a PRV"?

Just something I've thought about a lot. For me the answer was, "no it's not worth it, 6 bolt main bearings here I come! :wrenchin:". I suppose for some though it is worth it.

Hell, truthfully, (this is all just my opinion) given John DeLoreans history, to me a GM V8 always seemed to be more in line with what the original vision was for the car. Especially if you read through some of the old documentation and biographies where he talks about his dissatisfaction with the output of the PRV platform. Just sayin :wink::burnout:

Not trying to put anyone down, just stating someone I think about a lot. I'm curious what other people think. :thumbup:

Actually wouldnt the rotary engine used in the Mazda more inline with JZD's "vision"? As how it could be mid mounted? Low weight and the hp is only limited by how much fuel you can put into it?

:)

--Doug

[aotmfilms]

My dum dum question. If the D's transmission (according to tech drawings, documentation etc) would crap itself at anything over 280 hp, why would someone do an engine swap without replacing the transmission first. Now mind you I have a Stage 1 (from what I see in my car), that is around 160hp, and while 280 sounds alot, compared to current cars, its not, (my 2007 Sonata, I took from 240 hp, threw in a K&N Airfilter, chip upgrade and a 35 - 75 hp Nitrous Express bolt on kit, and now the sucker runs from 325hp to 360 hp). My point is, why would you try to put in an engine that may crap out your tranny without replacing the tranny as well? Or are you backing off on the hp?

I don't mean to offend, but is it for easier part selection, better reliability or what?

Thanks for helping the newbie to understand.:worship:

--Doug

[OZ DMC]

If anyone is interested in this, I am currently working on a step by step install of a 3.0. Im putting my engine together right now So I can add to this thread in a month or so. Just the engine related assembly for now.

Look forward to this....

[Josh]

Look forward to this....

pm me with any questions... but that engine is long gone. Ran it all last season, on to bigger things now :)

[Josh]

My dum dum question. If the D's transmission (according to tech drawings, documentation etc) would crap itself at anything over 280 hp, why would someone do an engine swap without replacing the transmission first. Now mind you I have a Stage 1 (from what I see in my car), that is around 160hp, and while 280 sounds alot, compared to current cars, its not, (my 2007 Sonata, I took from 240 hp, threw in a K&N Airfilter, chip upgrade and a 35 - 75 hp Nitrous Express bolt on kit, and now the sucker runs from 325hp to 360 hp). My point is, why would you try to put in an engine that may crap out your tranny without replacing the tranny as well? Or are you backing off on the hp?

I don't mean to offend, but is it for easier part selection, better reliability or what?

Thanks for helping the newbie to understand.:worship:

--Doug

If you are referring to nick's transmission... it is not stock! Mine is not either.

[aotmfilms]

If you are referring to nick's transmission... it is not stock! Mine is not either.

What did you do to it so it could handle the extra torque/hp above 280? Did you drop in a completely non-DeLorean transmission? Do you have a blog or site I could look at?

Just curious because if I ever want to increase my HP from a stage 1 I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

Thank you!

--Doug

[Josh]

Im around 350 lb ft at the crank. I will be around 400 when I get around to putting in a cam. I am using the regular delorean transmission with Toby's upgraded coupler. Other than that it is what you would find in any other stock 5spd delorean.

The issue I ran into was the clutch. This has been a bit of an adventure for me that is not yet complete.
The stock Valeo clutch was slipping in my application, not enough clamping force. There are drop in clutches that hold more power than the stock delorean unit, look into the Renault Alpines. The Alpine GTA (2.5 turbo) clutch is a small upgrade but not really worthy of 280lb ft. Ed at Delorean Europe can get you one of these clutch setups. The Alpine A610 (3.0 Turbo) should handle low 300s but it is hard to come by and very expensive.

I am going an alternative route inspired by Ed's VR6 swaps using a Kelvar re-lined delorean clutch disc and a 350Z pressure plate. This should handle 500 lb ft at the crank, which moves the weak point back to the transaxle (Yikes!)

Hopefully this was helpful.

[opethmike]

As someone who has been there, done that, upgrade your throttle body (larger size), air intake tubing (larger, again), and get a larger, aftermarket manifold such as a FAST before you go cam. Do the heads too. Cam should be dead last on the list.

I've been involved in several of these with C5 cars, and the difference between going just cam, and going full air induction pathway is absolutely enormous. Not only more power & torque, but the under the curve area will be smooth, stronger, and most importantly, much more streetable.

If you can afford it, buy all of that stuff as a package. Tons of Corvette vendors will sell you precisely setups like that, and will work with you on determining the best combination of components. Even with a mild cam, you are going to have to upgrade your pushrods, rockers, and lifters if you expect them to live very long.


*cough* adapter plate *cough*

[JohnLane]

Interesting reading in this thread....

I've experience using the DM Speed/Density engine management system on an even firing three liter.
Made for a nice runner. I used a Volvo B-6304 throttle body on the B-280f intake elbow... TPS needed adjustment.
The three liter being an even-firing engine will have a perfectly smooth idle. More displacement and (likely) more static compression ratio with much improved intake manifolding and better exhaust manifolds over the odd-firing engine means more torque and power. Hydraulic tipped lash adjusters means no valve adjustments. The late engines have a nice engine management system and accessory drive. All easily adapted for use in the D. I used it in my Volvo 240.

We're I to do the project today I'd use MS or another programmable system.

I've turbocharged my three liter PRV six in the Volvo rallycar. It got Electromotive. Big big power in that one.

I'm interested in efforts that have been put into continued development of the PRV six.

[DMC-81]

Interesting reading in this thread....

I've experience using the DM Speed/Density engine management system on an even firing three liter.
Made for a nice runner. I used a Volvo B-6304 throttle body on the B-280f intake elbow... TPS needed adjustment.
The three liter being an even-firing engine will have a perfectly smooth idle. More displacement and (likely) more static compression ratio with much improved intake manifolding and better exhaust manifolds over the odd-firing engine means more torque and power. Hydraulic tipped lash adjusters means no valve adjustments. The late engines have a nice engine management system and accessory drive. All easily adapted for use in the D. I used it in my Volvo 240.

We're I to do the project today I'd use MS or another programmable system.

I've turbocharged my three liter PRV six in the Volvo rallycar. It got Electromotive. Big big power in that one.

I'm interested in efforts that have been put into continued development of the PRV six.


Hi John Lane,

Welcome to the forum!!! Is this your rally car?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_VDwgLemU

http://jalopnik.com/holy-crap-this-rally-volvo-1681821038

Big power indeed!! :worship:

I'm definitely interested in reading your posts! :thumbup:

[JohnLane]

Yes.... That is the rallycar.... In 1999.

Many laughs had in that one.

[DMC-81]

Yes.... That is the rallycar.... In 1999.

Many laughs had in that one.

Very, very cool! When I searched the internet for ways to get more power out of the PRV, your name came up and that rally car. :burnout:

You sir, could be the next tuner for the Delorean! Like Hennessy, Lingenfelter, etc.

Imagine the possibilities.... :headbang:

[Farrar]

For those who swapped in the 3.0L and kept the serpentine belt drive:

Which belt do you use now? Without the power steering pump, you need a shorter belt, right? Or did you install an idler pulley somewhere to make up the slack?

Thanks in advance.

[Josh]

for those who swapped in the 3.0l and kept the serpentine belt drive:

Which belt do you use now? Without the power steering pump, you need a shorter belt, right? Or did you install an idler pulley somewhere to make up the slack?

Thanks in advance.

6pk2120

[PlutonimicX]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but I may be able to get ahold of a decently low mileage, distributorless '91 Premier engine. I'm ignorant when it comes to EFI but I'd be willing to give it a shot. I get that the lower crankcase would have to be swapped out to maintain the stock mounts. Beyond that is there a comprehensive "How-to" for a setting up the wiring/sensors and software to get the engine properly running in the car? Thanks in advance!

[Farrar]

My recommendation would be to get a copy of a manual for the Premier/Monaco and make note of all needed sensors and their locations. Setting them up with your intended electronic engine management system should be pretty easy after that.

[PlutonimicX]

Thanks!

[Ron]

I haven't done that swap, but I'd consider getting a complete harness and ECU. The schematics are available on the net and once you splice in the power and gauges, you're basically done...