Upgraded and Improved Front Suspension

[content22207]

Stock DeLorean front suspensions suffer from many design weaknesses:
1) Lower control arms are made from low grade 16 gauge steel (basically the same type and thickness of steel typically reserved for fenders and door skins), making them very rust prone
2) Lower control arms are stamped and folded, creating stress weak points
3) Lower control arms are very narrow, even narrower at the point of pivot, making them very liable to fore/aft movement
4) Lower control arms are only held in alignment by the sway bar (which is not what sway bars are intended to do -- a bit like using a closet rod to hold up the wall of your house). DeLorean sway bars are very flexible in the fore/aft direction, especially given their shape (45 degree angles), which allows significant fore/aft lower control arm movement
5) Lower control arm themselves have very little resistance to torquing and warping. Bends at the bottom of each side only resist misshaping front to rear, not the arm twisting around itself. Boxing the arm in does alleviate this weakness somewhat. Note that the entire arm can not be boxed in without blocking ball joint and shock absorber access -- mostly only the area shock absorber and the pivot bolt can be boxed in (the narrowest part of the arm), plus a little sliver between the shock absorber and the ball joint.

Both of my cars have upgraded and improved front suspensions: Byrne Heninger's lower control arms *AND* Ed Uding's support brackets. To the best of my knowledge only one other owner is running this combo.

Byrne's lower control arms are welded together, not bent and folded. He uses high strength alloy steel, not low carbon steel. Most of the arm is 1/8" thick except for the ball joint pad and the spring perch, which are 1/4" thick.

Ed's support brackets are made from 1/4" thick alloy steel. While they do not transform the lower control arm completely into a lower wishbone, they come pretty damn close (helluva lot closer than the OEM design).

The combined effect is revolutionary. To date, eight other owners have test driven my car, every single one of whom evaluated its upgraded and improved front suspension better than stock. Some of those owners are on this forum and are invited to give their own objective opinion.

Irrespective of improved performance, my upgraded and improved front suspension is much more durable than stock. I do not ever anticipate any sort of failure whatsoever.

1,000 miles after installation:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/377600_267044393340818_100001057778755_815782_5084 50166_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311305_267046116673979_100001057778755_815787_1268 352523_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391867_267046526673938_603984250_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/317336_267047046673886_100001057778755_815789_1233 343848_n.jpg

2,000 miles after installation (dirtier, but otherwise unchanged):
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/425913_346599498718640_100001057778755_1036459_118 9650161_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/418535_346599555385301_100001057778755_1036461_181 9817693_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426418_346599945385262_100001057778755_1036468_156 7700757_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/430455_346599418718648_100001057778755_1036458_335 141433_n.jpg

Some naysayers in other forums have claimed that my upgraded and improved front suspension is going to rip the swaybar off the crumple extension -- palpable nonsense. The sway bar is incredibly bendy fore/aft (see original design weakness 4 above). If you have any doubt how bendy the sway bar is, take yours off your car and flex it. Nevertheless, I have turned my bushings around backwards so the swaybar presses into an empty space rather than into solid rubber:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/430455_346599418718648_100001057778755_1036458_335 141433_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/375011_267060150005909_100001057778755_815811_2047 237322_n.jpg

Six months later the sway bar mounts have yet to rip themselves off the crumple extension:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431704_346599712051952_100001057778755_1036464_226 120052_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/420057_346599788718611_100001057778755_1036465_639 163264_n.jpg

Ed's brackets are usually butted against the shock towers themselves (pivot bolt tube weld beads nestle inside his bushings). This makes them rather squeaky. It also tears up the finish if you've repainted your towers. I butted my brackets instead against C40 hardened steel washers:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/377906_271475429564381_100001057778755_832165_9072 30671_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/392677_267049146673676_100001057778755_815795_1925 875578_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/308894_267052680006656_100001057778755_815798_1606 75223_n.jpg
Because the washers rotate while the bushings stay still, they are totally silent. The washers are made of hardened steel, so the pivot bolt tubes will not eat into them as they rotate.

If you look closely you will also notice that I overlaid the outer lip of Ed's bushings with stainless fender washers. Ed supplies inset washers that will prevent the bolt from pulling through the bushing, but not the bushing itself from pulling through the bracket (only the bushing lip prevents that). This is what the original design looks like without fender washers (Luke Sandel's car -- the only other owner I know of running both Byrne's arms and Ed's brackets):
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/390244_271883462856911_100001057778755_833296_1741 82591_n.jpg

I also substituted Grade 8 bolts for the Grade 5 bolts supplied with Ed's brackets (I needed longer bolts anyway to accommodate the hardened steel washers mentioned above).

Anyway, that's what $1,000 will buy you: a bullet proof front suspension that revolutionizes handling and performance.

Quote from an owner who test drove my car at DMA FFT'11: "It feels like a modern car now."

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Squall67584]

Great idea! Definitely an upgrade I would do. Thanks for sharing!

[QuadcityDMC]

I just had mine done at DMCMW with Byrne Heninger's lower control arms but did not get the supports because of possiable "future" damage to the frame. Spax shocks, DMCH springs.

I only have 400 miles on my suspension

[sean]

but did not get the supports because of possiable "future" damage to the frame.

Can you expand on this?

[Delorean Industries]

Stock DeLorean front suspensions suffer from many design weaknesses:
1) Lower control arms are made from low grade 16 gauge steel (basically the same type and thickness of steel typically reserved for fenders and door skins), making them very rust prone
2) Lower control arms are stamped and folded, creating stress weak points
3) Lower control arms are very narrow, even narrower at the point of pivot, making them very liable to fore/aft movement
4) Lower control arms are only held in alignment by the sway bar (which is not what sway bars are intended to do -- a bit like using a closet rod to hold up the wall of your house). DeLorean sway bars are very flexible in the fore/aft direction, especially given their shape (45 degree angles), which allows significant fore/aft lower control arm movement
5) Lower control arm themselves have very little resistance to torquing and warping. Bends at the bottom of each side only resist misshaping front to rear, not the arm twisting around itself. Boxing the arm in does alleviate this weakness somewhat. Note that the entire arm can not be boxed in without blocking ball joint and shock absorber access -- mostly only the area shock absorber and the pivot bolt can be boxed in (the narrowest part of the arm), plus a little sliver between the shock absorber and the ball joint.

Both of my cars have upgraded and improved front suspensions: Byrne Heninger's lower control arms *AND* Ed Uding's support brackets. To the best of my knowledge only one other owner is running this combo.

Byrne's lower control arms are welded together, not bent and folded. He uses high strength alloy steel, not low carbon steel. Most of the arm is 1/8" thick except for the ball joint pad and the spring perch, which are 1/4" thick.

Ed's support brackets are made from 1/4" thick alloy steel. While they do not transform the lower control arm completely into a lower wishbone, they come pretty damn close (helluva lot closer than the OEM design).

The combined effect is revolutionary. To date, eight other owners have test driven my car, every single one of whom evaluated its upgraded and improved front suspension better than stock. Some of those owners are on this forum and are invited to give their own objective opinion.

Irrespective of improved performance, my upgraded and improved front suspension is much more durable than stock. I do not ever anticipate any sort of failure whatsoever.

1,000 miles after installation:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/377600_267044393340818_100001057778755_815782_5084 50166_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/311305_267046116673979_100001057778755_815787_1268 352523_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/391867_267046526673938_603984250_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/317336_267047046673886_100001057778755_815789_1233 343848_n.jpg

2,000 miles after installation (dirtier, but otherwise unchanged):
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/425913_346599498718640_100001057778755_1036459_118 9650161_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/418535_346599555385301_100001057778755_1036461_181 9817693_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426418_346599945385262_100001057778755_1036468_156 7700757_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/430455_346599418718648_100001057778755_1036458_335 141433_n.jpg

Some naysayers in other forums have claimed that my upgraded and improved front suspension is going to rip the swaybar off the crumple extension -- palpable nonsense. The sway bar is incredibly bendy fore/aft (see original design weakness 4 above). If you have any doubt how bendy the sway bar is, take yours off your car and flex it. Nevertheless, I have turned my bushings around backwards so the swaybar presses into an empty space rather than into solid rubber:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/430455_346599418718648_100001057778755_1036458_335 141433_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/375011_267060150005909_100001057778755_815811_2047 237322_n.jpg

Six months later the sway bar mounts have yet to rip themselves off the crumple extension:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/431704_346599712051952_100001057778755_1036464_226 120052_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/420057_346599788718611_100001057778755_1036465_639 163264_n.jpg

Ed's brackets are usually butted against the shock towers themselves (pivot bolt tube weld beads nestle inside his bushings). This makes them rather squeaky. It also tears up the finish if you've repainted your towers. I butted my brackets instead against C40 hardened steel washers:
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/377906_271475429564381_100001057778755_832165_9072 30671_n.jpg
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/392677_267049146673676_100001057778755_815795_1925 875578_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/308894_267052680006656_100001057778755_815798_1606 75223_n.jpg
Because the washers rotate while the bushings stay still, they are totally silent. The washers are made of hardened steel, so the pivot bolt tubes will not eat into them as they rotate.

If you look closely you will also notice that I overlaid the outer lip of Ed's bushings with stainless fender washers. Ed supplies inset washers that will prevent the bolt from pulling through the bushing, but not the bushing itself from pulling through the bracket (only the bushing lip prevents that). This is what the original design looks like without fender washers (Luke Sandel's car -- the only other owner I know of running both Byrne's arms and Ed's brackets):
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/390244_271883462856911_100001057778755_833296_1741 82591_n.jpg

I also substituted Grade 8 bolts for the Grade 5 bolts supplied with Ed's brackets (I needed longer bolts anyway to accommodate the hardened steel washers mentioned above).

Anyway, that's what $1,000 will buy you: a bullet proof front suspension that revolutionizes handling and performance.

Quote from an owner who test drove my car at DMA FFT'11: "It feels like a modern car now."

Bill Robertson
#5939

That's no crumple zone.... That's a battering ram.

[opethmike]

That's no crumple zone.... That's a battering ram.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[rundmc]

Just make sure you have Heninger verify the measurements on the LCAs he is about to send against an OEM set before he ships them.

Mine were too short at the ball joint end, and I didn't find out until they were on the car and my wheels were skewed. Fortunately it was evident before tires ever touched the ground, but even still it was very frustrating. Currently operating my OEM arms, but want a suitable upgrade at some point.

[Kenny_Z]

That's no crumple zone.... That's a battering ram.

I don't see how reinforcing the suspension in these photos is changing that section from crumple to battering. The crumple zone is the sheetmetal. To me this is basically the same as putting boxed control arms and a bigger sway bar on a modern Camaro.

Besides, lowering springs are just as much a safety concern. You've just dropped the car's bumper below 1981's DOT regulations.

[Jeff K]

Bill, can you please profile links to obtain the two items you mention.

Thanks!

[jangell]

I can do that for him:

DMC Europe for the brackets:
http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_143&products_id=95065&osCsid=55d0b6bb673359465d163616c953eca3

DeLorean Upgrade Parts for the lower control arm: http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page12.html

I'm thinking of doing this myself, since I need to do a front frame extension replacement this fall, and I'll already have everything off the front of the car.

-- Joe

[Jeff K]

I can do that for him:

DMC Europe for the brackets:
http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_143&products_id=95065&osCsid=55d0b6bb673359465d163616c953eca3

DeLorean Upgrade Parts for the lower control arm: http://deloreannewparts.com/store/page12.html

I'm thinking of doing this myself, since I need to do a front frame extension replacement this fall, and I'll already have everything off the front of the car.

-- Joe

Thanks Joe.

[Delorean Industries]

I don't see how reinforcing the suspension in these photos is changing that section from crumple to battering. The crumple zone is the sheetmetal. To me this is basically the same as putting boxed control arms and a bigger sway bar on a modern Camaro.

Besides, lowering springs are just as much a safety concern. You've just dropped the car's bumper below 1981's DOT regulations.

I could care less. I was just joking around with how beefy the set up looks.

[DMCMW Dave]

I can do that for him:

DMC Europe for the brackets:
http://www.delorean.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20_143&products_id=95065&osCsid=55d0b6bb673359465d163616c953eca3

-- Joe

I have the LCA braces here too, if my website ever gets reassembled I'd something to link to.:what_the: Call/PM/email for info.

One set in stock at the moment.

[stevedmc]

Bill, if you ever come down here for another tech day I'll break my $500 goal and purchase a set of LCA supports just to give you something to do next time you are down here.

[Kenny_Z]

I could care less. I was just joking around with how beefy the set up looks.

Aaah, gotcha. Sorry, I didn't catch the joke.

[DCUK Martin]

Okay let's set the record straight on this subject before Bill's opinions are remembered as facts.



1) Lower control arms are made from low grade 16 gauge steel (basically the same type and thickness of steel typically reserved for fenders and door skins), making them very rust prone


The material selection is suitable when one considers mass production. Just because it isn't 1/2" thick steel doesn't make it a design "flaw". While they do get surface rust, water has nowhere to pool (unless boxed in) so infact you rately see lower arms that're compromised from corrosion.



2) Lower control arms (LCA) are stamped and folded, creating stress weak points


In engineering terms "stress weak points" doesn't actually mean anything but clearly Bill thinks that a drawn component will somehow be weaker than one welded from flat sheet. This is not true. Drawing (a kind of stamping but it's not the same thing) is commonplace in industry.



3) Lower control arms are very narrow, even narrower at the point of pivot, making them very liable to fore/aft movement


But because it's designed to be triangulated by the Anti-roll bar (ARB), it doesn't need to be. He's basically saying it isn't a wishbone. But because it wasn't designed to be a wishbone, he's comparing apples with oranges.



4) Lower control arms are only held in alignment by the sway bar (which is not what sway bars are intended to do.... DeLorean sway bars are very flexible in the fore/aft direction, especially given their shape (45 degree angles), which allows significant fore/aft lower control arm movement


Bill has no evidence for this but he does like to repeat it, and once again this ARB was designed to work as track control rods to the LCA's. Lotus probably know a bit more about suspension design than Bill Robertson. The ARB is a torsion spring. The LCA loads the "legs" axially when you brake. The compliance that causes problems is in the bushes.



5) Lower control arm themselves have very little resistance to torquing and warping. Bends at the bottom of each side only resist misshaping front to rear, not the arm twisting around itself.


I think Bill means the arm isn't very strong if twisted along its length. This is a strange thing to call a "flaw" because the thing doesn't need strength in this plane. It needs strength to transfer the weight of the car from the spring seat to the ball joint and main bush at opposite ends. It acts as a kind of "bridge" and the lower edges are under tension - a force where even "low grade steel" is extremely strong. Those folded lips along the lower edges are there to take the force of the weight of the car pure and simple.

---------------

For the record, The front suspension is indeed compromised. I've read the thoughts of Mike Loasby on the design and understand that the LCA moving in two arcs during suspension movement does have positive effects on the handling, However the biggest problem is the compliance in the system which causes the LCA to "drag" when you brake. Mike's preferred design is a full wishbone setup, and indeed Lotus themselves moved to that later in production on the Esprit. Rob Grady has the arms Mike himself recalls having made and trialling which are true wishbones, though their fitment requires the LCA-to-ARB bushes be extra compliant otherwise the ARB will be trying to make the LCA trace an arc it's now entirely incapable of doing.

Ed's brackets give you a kind of half-way house between the two, and in the process use bushes that were designed for radial loading in an axial load situation - but hey, there're enough miles on them "out there" that I must concede this point.

An alternative is to radically increase the stiffness (shore hardness) of the ARB bushes, and that's exactly what you get from DMCNW for a fraction of the cost of Ed's brackets.

The bottom line for me is that I'd look to chase a true wishbone setup with an extra triangulating rod that rotates on the same axis as the LCA and is mounted to the frame extension. That's the only "proper" way of doing this.

Some pics from the internet. First off an S1 esprit - the link to the DeLorean is obvious

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/re/rennvendio/lotus_esprit_front_suspension.jpg

And the later equivalent:

http://www.delorean.ie/images/009_oblique_view_lh_jpg.jpg

http://www.thelotuscentreonline.co.uk/usrimage/cat125.jpg

[stevedmc]

Some pics from the internet. First off an S1 esprit - the link to the DeLorean is obvious


All Bill bashing aside, that suspension looks 99.9% like a Delorean suspension. Do you think the parts are interchangeable?

[DCUK Martin]

I did try and keep things focused on the issue and not Bill's comments.

I know the tie rods are longer so I expect the LCA at least is not interchangeable. The upper arm may be and the joints and bushes probably are

[Martyn]

Tie rods are from a Hillman imp.
Slighty shorter.:wink:

[propony]

The Delorean front suspension reminds me of the 1974-1978 Mustang II front suspension that is so popular with the street rod builders. After market companies have replaced the "strut rods", with tubular contol arms.
I am not picking a fight, or taking sides, but do a search and see for yourself. I think it could be done without reinventing the whole front end.
Curt

[DCUK Martin]

Tie rods are from a Hillman imp.
Slighty shorter.:wink:

Rods or rod ends?

[Farrar]

Is it just me, or does it look like mounting the ARB bushings backwards has caused them to split?

[DCUK Martin]

Which image?

[Farrar]

Which image?

These two:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/375011_267060150005909_100001057778755_815811_2047 237322_n.jpg
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/377600_267044393340818_100001057778755_815782_5084 50166_n.jpg

It looks to me like they have cracked through.

[DCUK Martin]

That's the split line where they're meant to fold for install

[Farrar]

That's the split line where they're meant to fold for install

Oh! OK, thanks. It looked kind of ragged so I assumed that they were split from use. (Obviously I haven't replaced mine yet.....)

[DCUK Martin]

I recommend the kit from DMCNW ;)

[Jeff K]

I recommend the kit from DMCNW ;)

Martin, can you post a link to that kit please? I went to the site and was confused., I didn't want to order the wrong thing.. Thanks!

[DCUK Martin]

http://delorean-parts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DPNW&Product_Code=K1006DP-A