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View Full Version : Has anyone ever built stainless front and rear bumpers for their DeLorean?



EarlHickey
05-06-2012, 02:32 PM
Thought about hanging the plastic ones on the wall while wheeling and hammering out some out of stainless. My shop hand is worked into a lather over the prospect of getting a good chance to have another finger smashed. Maybe a bit zippier and incorporate the back up cameras. Maybe faithful to the originals.

Kenny_Z
05-06-2012, 05:14 PM
As far as I've ever heard it has never been done. I say go for it, I'd love to see you succeed. I just hope your fingers survive. Stainless is a hard metal to work with. I've sliced my hand a couple of times with some pieces I have laying around.

Nicholas R
05-06-2012, 06:38 PM
As far as I've ever heard it has never been done. I say go for it, I'd love to see you succeed. I just hope your fingers survive. Stainless is a hard metal to work with. I've sliced my hand a couple of times with some pieces I have laying around.

This would be pretty awesome. I'm almost positive I read somewhere in the piles of factory and design documentation that stainless front and rear bumpers were briefly considered but, at least at the time, it wouldn't have been possible to stamp out such sharp curves, bends, etc into stainless. So they went with the plastic ones.

EarlHickey
05-06-2012, 11:25 PM
I think it will take some E-wheeling, hammering and then welding together some sections.

Building a stamping die to make the pieces would be nice, but, that ain't gonna happen.


Getting cut with stainless is a picnic compared to wheel rollers not caring your hands aren't metal. Ouch!

SIMid
05-07-2012, 12:13 AM
It would be an extremely expensive exercise if you need someone to make them!

EarlHickey
05-07-2012, 09:10 AM
It would be an extremely expensive exercise if you need someone to make them!


I imagine it would. Fortunately, I don't need much and unpolished stainless sheet isn't too heart $topping.

I have built a few stainless fuel/oil combination tanks for motorcycles that required far more finesse.

This will be comparatively much easier.

Rich W
05-07-2012, 12:33 PM
I think the statement about how this task is easier than making custom fuel/oil tanks for motorcycles is the over-statement of the year.

The task of attempting to reproduce the front fascia in stainless (as exact as possible to the original) has been tried numerous times in
the past few decades, by very good stainless steel fabricators, with no recorded (photo documented) success...yet.

I have seen progress photos of an on-going attempt (on again, off again) for the past few years, with only partial success. This includes
several "scrapped" attempts and complete re-starts from scratch. Again, the primary goal is to make the fascia appear "stock".

Just a hint of how complex this task will be, after seeing several failed attempts, there is no way to form a stainless sheet into the exact
same dimensions as the stock fascia, by hand fabrication, and thoughts of stamping a part as complex as this is completely a pipe-dream.

If you spend enough time, carefully studying and measuring this part, with all the complex angles, I am sure your opinion will change.

However, if you think otherwise, successfully fabricating a front fascia from only a stainless sheet would certainly change my opinion.

Later,
Rich W.


I imagine it would. Fortunately, I don't need much and unpolished stainless sheet isn't too heart $topping.

I have built a few stainless fuel/oil combination tanks for motorcycles that required far more finesse.

This will be comparatively much easier.

DMCVegas
05-07-2012, 01:06 PM
DeLotus back in Vegas was working on a project where he was getting copper to adhere to the fascias so he could nickel-strike it and electroplate the existing fascias with Stainless Steel. He stopped work on it, but I don't remember why. It's a great idea, and he'd be a good person to ask about how to do this.

dmcjohn
05-07-2012, 01:29 PM
Just a hint of how complex this task will be, after seeing several failed attempts, there is no way to form a stainless sheet into the exact same dimensions as the stock fascia, by hand fabrication, and thoughts of stamping a part as complex as this is completely a pipe-dream.



If someone has attempted this a few times and failed, this simply means it is beyond their capabilities. It does not mean that there is no way to do it. Unless you mean that there is no way to do this from a single sheet of stainless - but then no-one who knows what they are doing would bother trying to do it that way anyway.

As Earl said, it would be done in sections and welded together, and I can't see why it would be impossible at all. Difficult / lots of work / requiring skill - yes.

Regards,
John

Rich W
05-07-2012, 02:36 PM
Was there someone who specifically posted that this task it was impossible? I mentioned it had not been done yet.

My reply was geared more toward the someone attempting to fabricate a stainless steel front fascia from only stainless sheets,
as was implied in replies from Earl and others. An entire sub-structure is needed and certain areas may need more than just a
thin sheet of stainless to get the right bends and angles AND be able to hold this form (and the whole fascia), once installed.

I know of at least three different attempts that were made here in the US, by fabricators that tried to "get the stock look" and
still keep the weight reasonable, all while keeping the mounting criteria relatively stock as well. While the fabrication may not be
an impossible task, attempting to make a stainless steel sub-structure lighter than the metal itself may be considered impossible.

For these three guys, with "their" decades of collective fabrication experience, yes, it may be beyond their capabilities or their
interest in the project. I did not commission the works or fund the projects, so I do not know if the project funds were limited.
In most cases, all I saw were "old school" photos taken on 35mm cameras and Instamatics, so many of these were years ago.

Again, replying to Earl's statement, this task will not be easier than building custom fuel/oil tanks for motorcycles...period.

Later,
Rich W.


If someone has attempted this a few times and failed, this simply means it is beyond their capabilities. It does not mean that there is no way to do it. Unless you mean that there is no way to do this from a single sheet of stainless - but then no-one who knows what they are doing would bother trying to do it that way anyway.

As Earl said, it would be done in sections and welded together, and I can't see why it would be impossible at all. Difficult / lots of work / requiring skill - yes.

Regards,
John

dmcjohn
05-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Was there someone who specifically posted that this task it was impossible? I mentioned it had not been done yet.

Well....


there is no way to form a stainless sheet into the exact same dimensions as the stock fascia, by hand fabrication

I understood your comment about there being no way to do this, to effectively mean it is impossible in your opinion.



My reply was geared more toward the someone attempting to fabricate a stainless steel front fascia from only stainless sheets,
as was implied in replies from Earl and others. An entire sub-structure is needed and certain areas may need more than just a
thin sheet of stainless to get the right bends and angles AND be able to hold this form (and the whole fascia), once installed.

What do you mean by "only stainless sheets"? As I mentioned already (and as Earl also said - I'm sure he can clarify if I am misunderstanding him), the only practical way to do this would be in sections, but I get the impression you are talking about a single sheet of stainless, which was not suggested by Earl nor anyone else. Not sure what you really mean by an entire sub structure - I think it is a given that there would be a need to incorporate mounting points and reenforcement, which would be the easier part of the task.



While the fabrication may not be an impossible task, attempting to make a stainless steel sub-structure lighter than the metal itself may be considered impossible..

I have no idea what you are trying to say there?

In general, I think there has been a bit of a myth out there about stainless fabrication over the past few years. Sure, its harder to work with than regular steel, but there are plenty of skilled stainless fabricators all over the world who would confirm it's not rocket science. I suppose put simply, I think its better to bring a positive supportive attitude to a conversation where someone wants to try something new rather than making the task sound impossible (or "no way to do this")...

Looking forward to hearing your progress Earl if you decide to go ahead - check out this link you and your shop hand may find interesting how a full set of stainless panels were fabricated in a matter of weeks - http://www.delorean.ie/vintage_works.html - showing what is possible when you have a person with the right skills.

Best of luck,
John

Rich W
05-07-2012, 06:40 PM
John,

Once again, I am not sure how you are drawing your conclusions based on what was actually posted
and in general, I am not sure how you are stringing some ideas together, to get to these conclusions.

For instance, what does some apparant myth about stainless fabrication have anything to do with a
guy claiming to have fabricated stainless motorcycle fuel/oil tanks, think that fabricating a stainless
DeLorean fascia would be much easier, in comparison (in his opinion). The same guy implies that he
can take a stainless sheet and make this happen. I disagree. Other stainless material will be needed.

You and I both agree that there are plenty of skilled stainless fabricators out there and that it would
take a skilled fabricator plenty of time, effort and money to produce almost anything in stainless.

The original statements from Earl were as follows:

(1) I think it will take some E-wheeling, hammering and then welding together some sections.
Building a stamping die to make the pieces would be nice, but, that ain't gonna happen.
Getting cut with stainless is a picnic compared to wheel rollers not caring your hands aren't metal. Ouch!

(2) I imagine it would. Fortunately, I don't need much and unpolished stainless sheet isn't too heart $topping.
I have built a few stainless fuel/oil combination tanks for motorcycles that required far more finesse.
This will be comparatively much easier.

I interpreted part of statement (1) as an endorsement of a stamping of fascias out of stainless sheets.
Even with todays technology, there is no way to stamp a part as complex as the facia in a stainless sheet
and have it look exactly the same as a stock front fascia, so I called that BS. Your post appeared to agree.

I interpreted the last part of statement (2) as fabrication of a front fascia would be easier than a motorcycle
fuel or oil tank, and I referred to that as a BS statement as well (actually, the over-statement of the year).
If you think a stainless front fascia is easier to fabricate, then Earl may have a few done in time for DCS 2012.

Not every metal fabricator can just "switch gears" and successfully work with stainless, without putting in
extra time and effort, to learn to work with the different characteristics of stainless steel. I know several
stainless experts and I expect John knows more than one as well. SS fabricators need to put in due time.

There is thinking about doing something, talking about doing something, then there is actually doing it.
In most cases, talking is as far as many ideas get, and talk is cheap. Saying and doing are very different.

I agree stainless fabrication is not rocket science, but I also know things do not get done with only talk.

On this, I think we can agree.

Later,
Rich W.

Rich W
05-07-2012, 06:47 PM
John,

Once again, I am not sure how you are drawing your conclusions based on what was actually posted
and in general, I am not sure how you are stringing some ideas together, to get to these conclusions.

For instance, what does some apparant myth about stainless fabrication have anything to do with a
guy claiming to have fabricated stainless motorcycle fuel/oil tanks, think that fabricating a stainless
DeLorean fascia would be much easier, in comparison (in his opinion). The same guy implies that he
can take a stainless sheet and make this happen. I disagree. Other stainless material will be needed.

You and I both agree that there are plenty of skilled stainless fabricators out there and that it would
take a skilled fabricator plenty of time, effort and money to produce almost anything in stainless.

The original statements from Earl were as follows:

(1) I think it will take some E-wheeling, hammering and then welding together some sections.
Building a stamping die to make the pieces would be nice, but, that ain't gonna happen.
Getting cut with stainless is a picnic compared to wheel rollers not caring your hands aren't metal. Ouch!

(2) I imagine it would. Fortunately, I don't need much and unpolished stainless sheet isn't too heart $topping.
I have built a few stainless fuel/oil combination tanks for motorcycles that required far more finesse.
This will be comparatively much easier.

I interpreted part of statement (1) as an endorsement of a stamping of fascias out of stainless sheets.
Even with todays technology, there is no way to stamp a part as complex as the facia in a stainless sheet
and have it look exactly the same as a stock front fascia, so I called that BS. Your post appeared to agree.

I interpreted the last part of statement (2) as fabrication of a front fascia would be easier than a motorcycle
fuel or oil tank, and I referred to that as a BS statement as well (actually, the over-statement of the year).
If you think a stainless front fascia is easier to fabricate, then Earl may have a few done in time for DCS 2012.

Not every metal fabricator can just "switch gears" and successfully work with stainless, without putting in
extra time and effort, to learn to work with the different characteristics of stainless steel. I know several
stainless experts and I expect John knows more than one as well. SS fabricators need to put in due time.

There is thinking about doing something, talking about doing something, then there is actually doing it.
In most cases, talking is as far as many ideas get, and talk is cheap. Saying and doing are very different.

I agree stainless fabrication is not rocket science, but I also know things do not get done with only talk.

On this, I think we can agree.

Later,
Rich W.

dmcjohn
05-07-2012, 07:37 PM
John,

Once again, I am not sure how you are drawing your conclusions based on what was actually posted
and in general, I am not sure how you are stringing some ideas together, to get to these conclusions.



Well - I quoted your words to show how I drew my conclusions! I also quoted you in my first post in this thread. After that, not sure what else you need? :hmm:



For instance, what does some apparant myth about stainless fabrication have anything to do with a
guy claiming to have fabricated stainless motorcycle fuel/oil tanks, think that fabricating a stainless
DeLorean fascia would be much easier, in comparison (in his opinion).

My initial post was simply in reply to your comment (and again I helpfully quoted you!) that there is no way to hand fabricate a fascia from a sheet of stainless steel. Maybe you missed it, but Earl said it would involve making it in sections and welding them together. Perfectly feasible. That was the point of my post, to disagree with your comments, especially as they only serve to continue a myth I perceive in DeLorean circles that many people think stainless can only be worked on by a handful of people. If you don't percieve this also, that's fine - it is only my opinion.

I did question in both my replies exactly what you meant by "from only stainless sheets" but you haven't clarified. Again, if you mean that there is no way to form a perfect fascia from a single sheet of stainless, i.e. you mean working a single flat sheet into a fascia by hammers and dollies, then obviously that's not possible. But - my point was, no one was suggesting this, so I think you are misinterpreting the first few posts in this thread.



The same guy implies that he can take a stainless sheet and make this happen. I disagree. Other stainless material will be needed.

What do you mean other stainless material will be needed? You do know that stainless generally comes in sheets, right? From which, you cut patterns out - fold, cut, weld, etc. I really don't get your point. I see nothing wrong with the concept of starting with some sheets of stainless steel as raw material, and ending up with a fascia.



You and I both agree that there are plenty of skilled stainless fabricators out there and that it would take a skilled fabricator plenty of time, effort and money to produce almost anything in stainless..

Good.





The original statements from Earl were as follows:

(1) I think it will take some E-wheeling, hammering and then welding together some sections.
Building a stamping die to make the pieces would be nice, but, that ain't gonna happen.
Getting cut with stainless is a picnic compared to wheel rollers not caring your hands aren't metal. Ouch!

(2) I imagine it would. Fortunately, I don't need much and unpolished stainless sheet isn't too heart $topping.
I have built a few stainless fuel/oil combination tanks for motorcycles that required far more finesse.
This will be comparatively much easier.

I interpreted part of statement (1) as an endorsement of a stamping of fascias out of stainless sheets.
Even with todays technology, there is no way to stamp a part as complex as the facia in a stainless sheet
and have it look exactly the same as a stock front fascia, so I called that BS. Your post appeared to agree.

I interpreted the last part of statement (2) as fabrication of a front fascia would be easier than a motorcycle
fuel or oil tank, and I referred to that as a BS statement as well (actually, the over-statement of the year).
If you think a stainless front fascia is easier to fabricate, then Earl may have a few done in time for DCS 2012...

Actually on this bit above, I am not sure what Earl meant. By saying (in piece 1) "a die to make the pieces" did he mean the parts of the fascia that would then be welded together to make the finished product? Possibly. A lot of the cars from the 50's with the big chrome bumpers had them made in this way - stamped in pieces and then welded together. Or, maybe he was talking about a single die to make the entire fascia, which I agree is not feasible. Actually, either way is not financially feasible anyway so it's a moot point. Then, on point 2, I wasn't sure if he meant that he had made some complex shapes in stainless before during fabrication of a custom fuel tank, and that comparatively the shapes and bends in a DMC fascia would be easier. Who knows - I would have to see a few pics of this fuel tank to have an opinion on it.

Anyway, tried to make that as clear as possible - I'm making a simple point really that a stainless fascia is perfectly feasible, and I'm trying to offer some encouragement to Earl as I'd love to see how it turns out! If you're still confused Rich, then I give up.

Regards,
John

Rich W
05-07-2012, 07:59 PM
Hi John,

Sorry I did not address all of your concerns in my last post. Just so your misunderstanding does not continue,
at no point did I say or imply that the fascia be fabricated out of a single sheet of stainless, so I am not sure
how that has now been included in at least two of your reply posts. My statement was that the fascias could
not be produced with only stainless steel sheets (for example, like the front fenders are only made from sheets).

Other panels, such as the doors and even parts of the rear quarter fenders have other stainless metal supports.

Hopefully this clarification helps you to understand my meaning of "only stainless sheets".

Let me know if you need any further clarifications, but I think I am done with this thread.

Later,
Rich W.

BTW: IIRC (from the last time you posted the fabricated panel link), all those stainless panels were fabricated
from "only stainless sheets", including the outer door panel skins, so I hope that will help clarify the term I used.

dmcjohn
05-07-2012, 08:53 PM
Hi John,

Sorry I did not address all of your concerns in my last post. Just so your misunderstanding does not continue,
at no point did I say or imply that the fascia be fabricated out of a single sheet of stainless, so I am not sure
how that has now been included in at least two of your reply posts.

When I read your sentence "there is no way to form a stainless sheet into the exact same dimensions as the stock fascia, by hand fabrication", I thought to myself that you couldn't possibly mean what I thought you meant. I must be misunderstanding you...

So, I twice questioned if you meant it could not be fabricated out of a single sheet -because in that case your comment could sort of make sense.

However, as you have now confirmed what you meant, I'm happy to report I disagree! Sorry, but what you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.



Other panels, such as the doors and even parts of the rear quarter fenders have other stainless metal supports.

Hopefully this clarification helps you to understand my meaning of "only stainless sheets".

You know that these other stainless metal supports you refer to started off as sheets of stainless steel too, right? This is why your original point makes no sense.

Unless you want to be really pedantic and start including threaded pieces attached to the stainless panels, every bit of the DeLoreans stainless steel skin started off as a piece of sheet stainless steel. It is perfectly feasible to create a fascia from sheet stainless steel. To argue otherwise because some stainless brackets would also need to be fabricated is a bit baffling to be honest!



Let me know if you need any further clarifications, but I think I am done with this thread.


No thanks, I understand what you meant now. When you said "there is no way to form a stainless sheet into the exact same dimensions as the stock fascia, by hand fabrication", you meant exactly that. And that as you would say yourself is BS, period!

EarlHickey
05-07-2012, 09:59 PM
Again, replying to Earl's statement, this task will not be easier than building custom fuel/oil tanks for motorcycles...period.

Later,
Rich W.


I suppose that's an easy blanket absolute to assert if you haven't seen any of the vessels mentioned or know of their complications.

I would tend to agree that this undertaking would be much more difficult if surface finish had to be 2B or better, it doesn't and for that matter, it's my party and if I want to integrate autistic skulls, flames and lightning bolts into the design.... I can! Heck, I suppose I could even clad it with heavy aluminum foil and start pimping a sombrero if I get the wild hair around the southern zone.

Now as for making the stainless "sub frame" lighter than steel, I didn't know I was boxed into that, but.... let me turn you on to 2205 super duplex stainless, stronger than chrome moly, less elastic (pretty sure) and quite weldable. Use 309 only, no autogenous beads and keep interpass temps below 300 F degrees. It is seriously mean to machine.

For all that matter, I can indeed weld stainless to steel or chrome moly.

I also whole heatedly disagree that the faithful reproduction pieces could not easily be rendered by a stamping die and will also point out that dies are much easier and cheaper to make today, than in the 80's.

Machining has come quite a long way in the last 30 years as have welders, but, I still love my massive transformer tig even though I have a modern high zoot inverter.

It's on the list and short of catastrophe or unexpected poverty, I'll certainly have them on my car before this year ends.


Maybe I'll put a 4' tall Daytona or Super Bee wing on the rear one with adjustable leading and trailing edges?

EarlHickey
05-07-2012, 10:49 PM
Looking forward to hearing your progress Earl if you decide to go ahead - check out this link you and your shop hand may find interesting how a full set of stainless panels were fabricated in a matter of weeks - http://www.delorean.ie/vintage_works.html - showing what is possible when you have a person with the right skills.

Best of luck,
John

Hey! That can't be done! Kudos on the very clever photochopping!!! ;-)

Seriously, I made tissue babies while looking at every single pic.

Masterful workmanship and I'm quite certain this gent could make the ends as well or better than myself.

However and regardless, I will certainly have some and maybe I'll even intentionally make them 300 pounds heavier than the plastic originals!!

Thank you very much for the links and encouragement!

tc connors
05-08-2012, 01:26 PM
Although stainless steel bumper covers certainly would look cool, they would undeniably be impractical as they would be easily damaged and more difficult to repair.

Also, the inability of a stainless cover to flex increases the chance that a bumper impact would damage the stainless fenders or rear quarter panels.

There are stainless colored paints on the market, but I'm not aware that anyone has achieved satisfying results by using one on the stock covers.

Kenny_Z
05-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Although stainless steel bumper covers certainly would look cool, they would undeniably be impractical as they would be easily damaged and more difficult to repair.

Also, the inability of a stainless cover to flex increases the chance that a bumper impact would damage the stainless fenders or rear quarter panels.

There are stainless colored paints on the market, but I'm not aware that anyone has achieved satisfying results by using one on the stock covers.

If you were to make the fascia in 3 pieces (upper stainless, center rubber, lower stainless) you could still have a functioning bumper. You'd build it like modern day cars with the plastic bumper cover splitting the upper stainless from the bottom stainless. However, a hard impact or one hitting the stainless sections of the fascia would do exactly what you said and damage the hood and fenders.

That link to the Delorean sculpture is impressive. I wish I had 1/16th the talent that artist displayed.

EarlHickey
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
I had never given that any thought although I generally have not been known to build on any of my street vehicles with the express intentions of crashing them. I realized this is true because none of them are adorned with exterior full roll cages, head-ache racks, schedule 200 water pipe bumpers or even feather pillows bungied or duct taped to them!!!

Years ago, I did build a motorcycle with a full roll cage so falling over repeatedly was really no problem. Perfect for the clumsy or drunk types.


all in good fun.... so..... if by some freakish chance it proves truly impossible, I could always have the local high school kids make some fine fiberglass custom units.



Although stainless steel bumper covers certainly would look cool, they would undeniably be impractical as they would be easily damaged and more difficult to repair.

Also, the inability of a stainless cover to flex increases the chance that a bumper impact would damage the stainless fenders or rear quarter panels.

There are stainless colored paints on the market, but I'm not aware that anyone has achieved satisfying results by using one on the stock covers.