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View Full Version : So I'm planning to go Carbureted



Dracula
06-20-2012, 02:28 PM
The tentative plan is to have the swap performed on my car at DCS '14 for all to see and observe; barring a failure of the K-Jet system before that. It's interesting to note that my car will be going from a Stage II to a carb setup and, in the process, I plan to ditch the Nology wiring setup.

More news to follow, but this is a preliminary outline of my plans and a chance for all the show attendees at DCS '14 to see just how easy the setup is to accommodate.

dvonk
06-20-2012, 02:57 PM
that will definitely be interesting for all to watch. the ease and simplicity of the carburetor is definitely an attractive proposition. if i end up getting a D with a 'basket case' K-Jet, i will seriously consider a carb swap as well.

stevedmc
06-20-2012, 03:12 PM
Too bad Captain Carburetor isn't on this forum anymore. It would be nice to be able to ask him some questions on here.

Dracula
06-20-2012, 03:31 PM
Too bad Captain Carburetor isn't on this forum anymore. It would be nice to be able to ask him some questions on here.

There's still the DML.

Dangermouse
06-20-2012, 04:00 PM
You can see the plan hatching in his mind already

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11017&d=1339898332

Best Pic at the Show, courtesy of DMCMWDave

Dracula
06-20-2012, 10:38 PM
They had nothing to do with my decision to go to a carb; though, I hope to learn a lot from them and hopefully Bill will be so courteous as to aide me with the initial install at DCS '14 for all interested to watch.

EdR5150
06-21-2012, 10:40 PM
When I saw that pic of you with Bill and Steve, I knew you were joining the Carburetor Cult.

stevedmc
06-22-2012, 09:48 AM
When I saw that pic of you with Bill and Steve, I knew you were joining the Carburetor Cult.

That picture wasn't even planned. We were chit chatting and Julie (I think) came up to us asking to take a picture. As far a I know, none of us discussed carburetors with Chad that weekend.

stevedmc
06-22-2012, 09:50 AM
hopefully Bill will be so courteous as to aide me with the initial install at DCS '14 for all interested to watch.

Provide me with a bottle of Diet Cheerwine and I might just drive up there and do the install free of charge. I plan to start canoeing the Mississippi River again and Wisconsin happens to be on my way to Minnesota.

Dangermouse
06-22-2012, 10:46 AM
As far a I know, none of us discussed carburetors with Chad that weekend.

It was subliminal.

thirdmanj
06-22-2012, 11:29 AM
He was using that FOOL Carb-I mind trick!!!

Dracula
06-22-2012, 11:49 AM
That picture wasn't even planned. We were chit chatting and Julie (I think) came up to us asking to take a picture. As far a I know, none of us discussed carburetors with Chad that weekend.

Actually, it was Dave S who said he had to get a picture. And, no, carburetors weren't discussed there. An issue on the way home inspired it.


Provide me with a bottle of Diet Cheerwine and I might just drive up there and do the install free of charge. I plan to start canoeing the Mississippi River again and Wisconsin happens to be on my way to Minnesota.

First I have to get some wiring issues sorted out at DMCMW and get a manifold. Otherwise, I'll do better than some Cheerwine. There's a few great steakhouses around here.


It was subliminal.

No, I repair '70s cars for a living, so it makes more sense to convert the car to my area of familiarity.

Dangermouse
06-22-2012, 12:09 PM
Wait a second....what happened to 1265, your auto conversion car?

DeLorean
06-22-2012, 12:18 PM
It is mysterious why anyone would want to replace an antiquated fuel injection system with an even older technology. Update, don't backdate. Megasquirt, or just use the renix or Chrysler EFI from an Eagle premier. My K-jet system works fine, and I don't anticipate anything "serious" going wrong with it that I could not easily fix. If I were going to do an an upgrade to my DeLorean, it would actually be an upgrade, not a downgrade (carb).

DMCMW Dave
06-22-2012, 12:33 PM
And, no, carburetors weren't discussed there. An issue on the way home inspired it.

I don't normally get into this discussion, but If I recall correctlyt I have read quite a few discussions on this board about fuel pump issues with carb cars, and people replacing them relatively often. Keep in mind replacing the entire fuel system does not eliminate the fuel pump.

Delorean Industries
06-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Wait a second....what happened to 1265, your auto conversion car?

Can't wait to hear this nightmare explained.

Squall67584
06-22-2012, 01:09 PM
I don't normally get into this discussion, but If I recall correctlyt I have read quite a few discussions on this board about fuel pump issues with carb cars, and people replacing them relatively often. Keep in mind replacing the entire fuel system does not eliminate the fuel pump.

It's been about 3 years, but in an issue of Hot Rod, someone mailed in a question about carbing a Fox body Mustang (80's-early 90's 5.0) on the cheap. In the reply, they mentioned keeping the high volume EFI fuel pump and using a fuel pressure regulator to keep the 8-9lbs of pressure (or whatever is needed) and using the stock return line for the bypassed fuel. Since I can't remember the issue it was in, the brand they suggested slips my mind, but I remember it was something you had to call the manufacturer and order since most regulators are made to regulate high pressures or low but not in the way the one they used was. Seems like using a regulator like that would be the best way.

stevedmc
06-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I don't normally get into this discussion, but If I recall correctlyt I have read quite a few discussions on this board about fuel pump issues with carb cars, and people replacing them relatively often. Keep in mind replacing the entire fuel system does not eliminate the fuel pump.

My fuel pump issue seemed to have been ground related. I rewired my ground connection to the fuel pump and have logged at least 10,000 miles with zero fuel pump issues since then.

SamHill
06-22-2012, 02:36 PM
It is mysterious why anyone would want to replace an antiquated fuel injection system with an even older technology. Update, don't backdate. Megasquirt, or just use the renix or Chrysler EFI from an Eagle premier.

Because it's easy, that's why.


My K-jet system works fine, and I don't anticipate anything "serious" going wrong with it that I could not easily fix.

Good for you? When it suddenly doesn't work fine anymore, let me know how easy the fix is. But then I guess that would be termed "serious." There was something "seriously" wrong with mine.


If I were going to do an an upgrade to my DeLorean, it would actually be an upgrade, not a downgrade (carb).

There's no bigger downgrade than a rotting Delorean. Lots of them out there, aren't there. They could all be easily upgraded with EFI! Get crackin.' It's easy.

By the way, how many PRV Eazy-E EFI'd Deloreans are out there (since say, 2009)? Don't include the ones that keep having problems.

opethmike
06-22-2012, 02:40 PM
Forum: Carb

The purpose of this subforum is to provide technical references for the conversion of the DeLoreans to carburation and for documenting individual project progress. It is not for debating one form of fuel delivery over any other and the thread author reserves the right to audit/edit or have removed, any posts at his discretion. These guidelines are clearly presented in advance and if you do not wish to abide by them, please feel free to refrain from contributing to this subforum.

SamHill
06-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Forum: Carb

The purpose of this subforum is for someone to take a swipe at carburetion, which is okay, and is allowed to stand, then to complain when someone responds.

Fixed for accuracy.

opethmike
06-22-2012, 02:57 PM
Fixed for accuracy.

http://www.varbak.com/images/the-ugly-cry-baby-nb17519.jpg

stevedmc
06-22-2012, 03:24 PM
Forum: Carb

The purpose of this subforum is to provide technical references for the conversion of the DeLoreans to carburation and for documenting individual project progress. It is not for debating one form of fuel delivery over any other and the thread author reserves the right to audit/edit or have removed, any posts at his discretion. These guidelines are clearly presented in advance and if you do not wish to abide by them, please feel free to refrain from contributing to this subforum.

Unlike EFI guys, we (carb trash) like drama. I welcome all white trash comments.

SamHill
06-22-2012, 05:48 PM
I keep having sync loss issues!
\
http://www.varbak.com/images/the-ugly-cry-baby-nb17519.jpg

Fixed again. Love ya!

Ron
06-23-2012, 12:33 AM
It's been about 3 years, but in an issue of Hot Rod, someone mailed in a question about carbing a Fox body Mustang (80's-early 90's 5.0) on the cheap. In the reply, they mentioned keeping the high volume EFI fuel pump and using a fuel pressure regulator to keep the 8-9lbs of pressure (or whatever is needed) and using the stock return line for the bypassed fuel. Since I can't remember the issue it was in, the brand they suggested slips my mind, but I remember it was something you had to call the manufacturer and order since most regulators are made to regulate high pressures or low but not in the way the one they used was. Seems like using a regulator like that would be the best way. You can get low pressure electric fuel pumps (even rail mounted) for 20-30 bucks.

Bitsyncmaster
06-23-2012, 09:47 AM
You can get low pressure electric fuel pumps (even rail mounted) for 20-30 bucks.

The low pressure required for a carb is the one big advantage I see of going carb. A regulator with the OEM fuel pump should really make that pump run forever. Current draw of a regulated OEM pump should run close to a low pressure pump. So if you have a working fuel system why not leave it.

The two disadvantages of going carb are less MPG (your mixture will change with altitude and other variables) and non-regulated idle speed (AC on, cold engine warmup, etc).

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 09:52 AM
The two disadvantages of going carb are..................cold engine warmup, etc).

We have a fast idle thingie that can be set to make it idle high until the engine is warmed up. It works very nicely. We do loose a little gas mileage yes, but its a trade off I'm willing to accept for reliability.

Whats funny is in some instances I get high gas mileage compared to a poor running K-Jet system. Properly tuned/running K-Jet or EFI should be us in gas mileage any day though. We would have to be complete idiots to argue against that.

Delorean Industries
06-23-2012, 10:02 AM
Regardless of the fuel delivery option MPG is dependent mainly on the fuel available. I have seen the exact same car with a difference of minimum 5mpg due to fuel quality.

ccurzio
06-23-2012, 10:04 AM
Regardless of the fuel delivery option MPG is dependent mainly on the fuel available. I have seen the exact same car with a difference of minimum 5mpg due to fuel quality.

What would you consider high quality fuel versus low quality?

Personally I put Chevron in my cars, but if there isn't one around I'll use Shell.

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 10:09 AM
What would you consider high quality fuel versus low quality?

Personally I put Chevron in my cars, but if there isn't one around I'll use Shell.

Chevron is garbage if it has ethanol in it. A high quality gas is one that is 100% gas. When I burn ethanol I get as low as 20mpg. I've seen gas mileage as high as 28mpg (actually 30 twice but I have doubts it was accurate) when I burn 100% pure gas.

Delorean Industries
06-23-2012, 10:22 AM
What the problem is and always will be is consistency. Despite what we are told gas is not produced to that great of a regulatory rule book. In the early 2000's in school we tested the actual rating of fuel and the results were surprising then. The amount of cutting and additives has doubled since then.

Best results high end race gas for economy. That kinda negates the entire thing though with the price difference and or cost savings.

ccurzio
06-23-2012, 10:38 AM
Chevron is garbage if it has ethanol in it. A high quality gas is one that is 100% gas. When I burn ethanol I get as low as 20mpg. I've seen gas mileage as high as 28mpg (actually 30 twice but I have doubts it was accurate) when I burn 100% pure gas.

I recalculate my gas mileage with every fill-up and I pull between 25 and 28 MPG with whatever gas I use. That being said, I also don't ever drive aggressively and I've peaked between 38 and 41 on my Audi A4.

And I can't speak for your moon colony but it's damn near impossible to find non-ethanol gas around here.

Nicholas R
06-23-2012, 10:40 AM
You can get low pressure electric fuel pumps (even rail mounted) for 20-30 bucks.

Wait, has anyone used a rail mounted pump in a DeLorean? I would LOVE to see that setup because I'd actually really like to get my fuel pump out of the tank. I wanted to have a wall mounted pump in my car anyway, with a pickup line running to the tank, but I couldn't come up with a good system.

Also I say do what makes you the most comfortable with the car. If you're better with carbs, carb it! IF you're better with EFI, do it! If you know K-jet inside and out, keep it original! Same goes with engines!

Ron
06-23-2012, 10:44 AM
The low pressure required for a carb is the one big advantage I see of going carb. A regulator with the OEM fuel pump should really make that pump run forever. Current draw of a regulated OEM pump should run close to a low pressure pump. So if you have a working fuel system why not leave it.

The two disadvantages of going carb are less MPG (your mixture will change with altitude and other variables) and non-regulated idle speed (AC on, cold engine warmup, etc).
Agreed!
Another advantage of a low pressure pump is that you don't have ~90psi running the length of the vehicle and 70psi in the engine compartment. If you mount it near the engine, you have no pressure (other than what might be in the tank and that due to gravity) until it's needed.


We have a fast idle thingie that can be set to make it idle high until the engine is warmed up. It works very nicely. We do loose a little gas mileage yes, but its a trade off I'm willing to accept for reliability.

It's called a choke (lol), the K-Jet equivalent is the idle speed control.
As for reliability, it seems you are comparing a (who knows how many times) rebuilt carb to a 30 year old system???
...and often "mechanics" that barely understand either.


Regardless of the fuel delivery option MPG is dependent mainly on the fuel available. I have seen the exact same car with a difference of minimum 5mpg due to fuel quality.
I basically agree with this. But if you put the same fuel in a carbed and a K-Jet, the K-Jet will give better mileage, good or bad gas....and w/o a lambda system the difference will be greater the worse the fuel.

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 11:36 AM
It's called a choke (lol), the K-Jet equivalent is the idle speed control.

Nope. Its called a fast idle cam/screw. It holds the throttle plates open (to increase idle) until the choke plate is fully open. Once the choke plate is open the fast idle screw is released and idle returns to normal. This is basically used to make our carbs idle high until the thing is warmed up. It is fully adjustable and you can make it idle as high or low as you please.

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 11:37 AM
And I can't speak for your moon colony but it's damn near impossible to find non-ethanol gas around here.

http://pure-gas.org/

Ron
06-23-2012, 11:58 AM
Nope. Its called a fast idle cam/screw. It holds the throttle plates open (to increase idle) until the choke plate is fully open. Once the choke plate is open the fast idle screw is released and idle returns to normal. This is basically used to make our carbs idle high until the thing is warmed up. It is fully adjustable and you can make it idle as high or low as you please.

It's not that simple...
What sets the cam? -- The choke. (Which also adjusts the A/F ratio during fast idle.)
You have to set the choke, which sets the cam, which you have to set correctly to open the throttle plates to the correct position. (Then you have to hit the pedal once to get it to work (if the engine is cold). And it will needlessly set there even after the engine is warmed up, wasting fuel, if you don't hit the pedal (on most of those older carbs anyway). K-Jet does most of this for you.

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 12:00 PM
And what sets the cam? -- The choke.
You have to set the choke, which sets the cam, which you have to set correctly to open the throttle plates to the correct position. (Then you have to hit the pedal once to get it to work (if the engine is cold). And it will needlessly set there even after the engine is warmed up, wasting fuel, if you don't hit the pedal (on most of those older carbs anyway). K-Jet does most of this for you.

The choke releases the cam. Its the screw on the back of the carb that determines how high or low the thing idles until the choke is open.

Ron
06-23-2012, 12:05 PM
The choke releases the cam. Its the screw on the back of the carb that determines how high or low the thing idles until the choke is open.Yes. You have to set the choke to corectly set and release the fast idle...it is in control!
???

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 12:05 PM
Yes. You have to set it to corectly set and release the fast idle...it is in control!
???

Ron sucks.

Ron
06-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Ron sucks.
Love ya bro!

...I have to go to a reunion

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Love ya bro!

...I have to go to a reunion

When is the next tech day out there? I need to put a few more miles on the Delorean this year?

Ron
06-23-2012, 03:15 PM
Nothing planned yet. I'd like for us to have a social/tech day this summer...

Farrar
06-23-2012, 06:40 PM
Nothing planned yet. I'd like for us to have a social/tech day this summer...

Can you put me on the mailing list for this? I need a road trip and if I have air conditioning...

stevedmc
06-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Can you put me on the mailing list for this? I need a road trip and if I have air conditioning...

Can you drive a stick? The ride will be easier for me if I can sit in the passenger seat once in a while.

Farrar
06-23-2012, 07:34 PM
Can you drive a stick?

No.

Ron
06-24-2012, 12:34 AM
Can you put me on the mailing list for this? I need a road trip and if I have air conditioning...:thumbup:

ccurzio
06-24-2012, 11:53 AM
:thumbup:

Just be sure to schedule it in late August so I can go too. :)

stevedmc
06-25-2012, 03:38 PM
Be sure to ask Bill to include a can of Dinte Moore Beef Stew with your conversion.

Farrar
06-25-2012, 05:56 PM
Be sure to ask Bill to include a can of Dinte Moore Beef Stew with your conversion.

11399

Ron
06-25-2012, 06:06 PM
Just be sure to schedule it in late August so I can go too. :)
I don't even know where yet...IIRC, Derek said he might hold one if no one else does...


Be sure to ask Bill to include a can of Dinte Moore Beef Stew with your conversion.
Isn't that out of season in DC right now?


11399
See Unban Bill Poll results...

stevedmc
06-26-2012, 11:16 AM
See Unban Bill Poll results...

That poll was rigged.

Dangermouse
06-26-2012, 04:44 PM
How can you even say that?

Even though there were only 43 voters, the 470 votes cast for “Dinty Moore Stew” just shows how firmly the electorate believe in that option.

Can’t argue with democracy

stevedmc
06-26-2012, 05:51 PM
How can you even say that?

The poll was rigged because Diet Cheerwine wasn't even an option.

Dracula
06-26-2012, 05:59 PM
The poll was rigged because Diet Cheerwine wasn't even an option.

I've never had Diet Cheerwine, but I do like the regular variant.

Also, it's 100% certain; I will be going carbureted on my car.

stevedmc
06-26-2012, 11:25 PM
I've never had Diet Cheerwine, but I do like the regular variant.

Also, it's 100% certain; I will be going carbureted on my car.

Well I guess I won't be doing your conversion if you can't get me any Diet Cheerwine. See if Bill will include a bottle with your shipment of parts. If he does, I'll drive 16 or so hours up there to do your conversion.

Farrar
06-28-2012, 06:41 PM
Bill and I did my conversion when there was no promise of Cheerwine of any sort. Good thing I got in on the deal before inflation.

Dracula
06-29-2012, 02:42 PM
My conversion won't be occurring until 2014; barring an unfortunate failure of the fuel system, so there'll be plenty of time to find some and all the assistance at DCS '14 will be welcome; even if it's just moral support.

SamHill
06-29-2012, 05:58 PM
My conversion won't be occurring until 2014; barring an unfortunate failure of the fuel system, so there'll be plenty of time to find some and all the assistance at DCS '14 will be welcome; even if it's just moral support.

Poppycock. Start EFI now and it could be done by 2014. In fact, you might just be trolling for a free EFI conversion from moral outrage in the greater stuffed-shirt D communitay! (Brilliant!)

Ron
06-29-2012, 06:25 PM
Poppycock. Start EFI now and it could be done by 2014. In fact, you might just be trolling for a free EFI conversion from moral outrage in the greater stuffed-shirt D communitay! (Brilliant!)
I'll donate a carb provided Steve rebuilds it...I showed him a few he could even pick from.

stevedmc
06-30-2012, 01:39 PM
I'll donate a carb provided Steve rebuilds it...I showed him a few he could even pick from.

Awesome idea. I can pick it up next time I am at one of Ron's tech days. I'll rebuild the thing at my expense and send it to a certain someone so he can test it on Chad's new manifold.

Dracula
06-30-2012, 01:42 PM
Wonderful news. For all those interested, watch the first carb conversion on a Stage II engine happen in 2014 live at DCS. At the very least, a video should be made of the entire process.

1Mcfly4u
06-30-2012, 09:53 PM
Bil....err He Who Shall not Be Named and I talked about carbing my stage II back in December at the VA. meet. I emailed him a few times to talk more about it but he never responded so I just let it drop. I think carbing a stage II is going to be sweet, best of luck on it Chad! (Even if it is in two more years...)

Dangermouse
06-30-2012, 10:52 PM
Bil....err He Who Shall not Be Named

Voldebertson?

Billdemort?

Dracula
07-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Well, the issue that was giving me a headache was a strange fuel pump failure; kudos to the good people at DMCMW. My car would run for about 18-20 miles, then start bucking and kicking like it was getting no fuel. On smaller trips, it would be fine and no issues would be present, but when the car warmed up it wouldn't produce sufficient pressure. This is the type of issue that, had it happened to a carbed car, I could have easily ignored due to the lack of pressure needed to run the fuel system. I had thought it was a fuel system issue, but I've never seen that sort of failure from a fuel pump before. It only reaffirms my desire to switch to a carb; maybe before 2014.

DMCMW Dave
07-12-2012, 01:19 PM
This is the type of issue that, had it happened to a carbed car, I could have easily ignored due to the lack of pressure needed to run the fuel system. I had thought it was a fuel system issue, but I've never seen that sort of failure from a fuel pump before. It only reaffirms my desire to switch to a carb; maybe before 2014.

Carbs still need fuel pumps. You would not know there was an issue (i.e. you could "ignore it") until it failed completely, so you would not be aware that there was a problem until it quit. It would not be giving you any warning.

In my experience, fuel pumps generally work one minute and not the next.

Dracula
07-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Excellent point. What I meant was more of that I wouldn't have been pulling my hair out in frustration or debating selling the car due to confusion over such an issue.

stevedmc
07-12-2012, 05:22 PM
Carbs still need fuel pumps.

Bill needs to rig up a way for us to suplement our electric fuel pumps with mechanical pumps. Suprisingly the mechanical fuel pump in my mustang works nicely, however I plan to eventually suplement it with an electric fuel pump.

Ron
07-12-2012, 06:39 PM
Bill needs to rig up a way for us to suplement our electric fuel pumps with mechanical pumps. Suprisingly the mechanical fuel pump in my mustang works nicely, however I plan to eventually suplement it with an electric fuel pump.
OK, I'll bite...Why?

stevedmc
07-12-2012, 06:41 PM
OK, I'll bite...Why?

Just for redundancy. I think it would be super cool that have a fuel system that doesn't need a single bit of electricity to function.

Bitsyncmaster
07-12-2012, 07:00 PM
Just for redundancy. I think it would be super cool that have a fuel system that doesn't need a single bit of electricity to function.

I bet you can modify an aircraft MAG so your ignition will run without electricity also.,

DMCMW Dave
07-12-2012, 08:24 PM
Just for redundancy. I think it would be super cool that have a fuel system that doesn't need a single bit of electricity to function.

Yeah - now you've de-evolutioned to pre -1975 or so. And I recall changing mechanical fuel pumps at the time much more often than electric pumps on modern cars. BTW there is a fuel pump lobe on the back of the passenger side cam under the blanking panel, so somewhere out there is a mechical PRV fuel pump waiting to be re-discovered. :wink:

DMCMW Dave
07-12-2012, 08:25 PM
I bet you can modify an aircraft MAG so your ignition will run without electricity also.,

I can see it now - a DeLorean with a hand crank hanging out of the rear bumper. Or even better - lawnmower-style pull cord.

Farrar
07-12-2012, 08:35 PM
Diesel.

stevedmc
07-12-2012, 10:35 PM
I can see it now - a DeLorean with a hand crank hanging out of the rear bumper. Or even better - lawnmower-style pull cord.

I push started my car once when the tow truck refused to tow me. That was the week I canceled road side assistance.

If I can push start a car, I've got no need for a hand crank.

Dracula
07-13-2012, 12:32 AM
Yeah - now you've de-evolutioned to pre -1975 or so. And I recall changing mechanical fuel pumps at the time much more often than electric pumps on modern cars. BTW there is a fuel pump lobe on the back of the passenger side cam under the blanking panel, so somewhere out there is a mechical PRV fuel pump waiting to be re-discovered. :wink:

This sounds like a great thing to me; a carbureted car with mechanical pump and no advanced systems. Then, if the electrical system were simplified even further, there'd be nothing strange, DeLorean-specific, or confusing about the mechanics of the car.

Ron
07-13-2012, 01:31 AM
Just for redundancy. I think it would be super cool that have a fuel system that doesn't need a single bit of electricity to function.Hmmmm....
Well, there is no electricity and a lot of redundancy involved with Bill's Coke can of fuel down the carb vent trick.

stevedmc
08-08-2012, 01:04 AM
Hmmmm....
Well, there is no electricity and a lot of redundancy involved with Bill's Coke can of fuel down the carb vent trick.

Thats just silly. A coke bottle of fuel will only get you a few miles down the road.

Ron
08-08-2012, 01:20 AM
Thats just silly. A coke bottle of fuel will only get you a few miles down the road.

"redundancy"