Introverts versus extroverts

[Jonathan]

I wanted to share a couple links with you that I found were a really good read and helped make clear how I think about me, work environments, relationships, and a few other things.

The first is a write-up on cubicle culture in an office setting. It is from one of our newspapers and I can definitely relate to the challenges of working in this type of setting.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/give-staff-a-break-from-cubicle-culture/article4511740/

The second thing I wanted to mention, along a similar line, is a book I've been reading called Quiet by Susan Cain. It is all about introverts. How introverts differ from extroverts, how they thrive in different settings such as working alone versus in groups, how they prefer deep conversation versus small talk, how they don't like to keep selling themselves in big social or business settings but instead would rather quietly go about their business.

Here is Susan's webpage or check the book out the next time you're in a book store:

http://www.thepowerofintroverts.com/

I think the reason I thought of mentioning it here is partly because the idea that an introvert (me) likes deep conversation versus small talk is exactly how I take to car shows and gas station circuses in the DeLorean. It is an awfully strange choice in automobiles for someone that would rather keep to themselves, but I think many of us fall into this category. I love talking someone's ear off on the history of the car, it's design, features, even BTTF, but I don't care for as much when it is just some random comment from a guy at a gas station.

Check it out. As Susan mentions early on, it is quite liberating and enlightening to read this and realize you do fit rather well in the mix of society, even if it is not the dancing on the kitchen table kind.

[DMCVegas]

It's not strange at all. Years ago there was a fan page put up by a DeLorean owner who had made the statement that you cannot be a DeLorean owner AND be an introvert. It's a bad combination that most people can't handle. And boy is that true. I know it doesn't seem like it from my posts online, but I'm actually quite introverted myself. If I'm in a situation where I don't know people, I'm actually very quiet and tend to stay out of the foray of conversations until I've sized everyone up. Then I might jump into things. While a big drawback to online communication mediums such as this one is there is a ton of social interaction removed, it actually doesn't hinder everyone. Granted I spent a few years working in a call center so I've been rather burned-out by talking on the phone all of the time, I sometimes find it much easier to communicate online like this.

The first aspect is the same as "Theater of the Mind" as it applies to radio. When thoughts are disconnected from the sight and sound of a person speaking them, be it a voice and even the physical appearance of that person or even their handwriting, allot of the social and psychological bonds that regulate our normal social interactions are removed. Otherwise known as the Online Disinhibition Effect. Sometimes it has it's negative effects as demonstrated by John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. (http://www.recreatingtampa.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/giftheorypennyarcade.jpg). But usually the much more likely occurrence is the positive effect where we abandon our social hangups and prejudices and communicate with one another.

DMCH's 2005 Open House is to date the only actual DeLorean event that I officially have attended. I've popped in for other ones to say high for a couple of hours to a few people, but I've never actually participated otherwise. What I noticed that day was that being a younger person that day, as well as one of the first ones in there, older DeLorean owners (with the exception of a single one) did not come over to talk with me in the lobby. Even later on during the BBQ catering @ DMCH, they tended to ignore me and didn't start up conversations with me. Younger owners I noticed had the same experience and all started clustering together. I attribute that to the online environment versus the real world. 50% was my restrained social behaviors that prevented me from starting up conversations as easily as I jumped into this one, and the other 50% was the social constraints of others who had the same reasons as well as perhaps others for not talking to me.

When I am in a situation where I have to be social and outward to everyone, I think of Howard Cosell. I once watched a documentary on him years ago where they said that he too was an introvert, but overcame it with ego and self confidence. As a result I LOVE being an information junkie because it helps be confident in conversations when I know the actual facts.

[Dangermouse]

What's the difference between an introverted engineer and an extroverted engineer?

An introverted engineer looks at his shoes when he's talking to you, an extroverted engineer looks at your shoes when he's talking to you.

[dmc6960]

I am a pretty solid introvert. Have been all my life. When I'm with my DeLorean it all changes for the better socially. Without this car I'd probably have very little social experience. It really makes things manageable. This probably wouldn't work if you absolutely dont want to leave your introvert norms, but I sure did.

[Mike C.]

Im an introverted extrovert. I'm quiet and keep to myself... until I don't. Then all bets are off.

[Jonathan]

Yea, I haven't made it through the entire book yet, but she has some great thoughts on things. Like you know how if when you were a young kid and if the teacher reported back to the parents that the child is not outgoing, or is shy, or only has a few friends, or likes to keep to himself, that this was seen as something that needed to be fixed? Susan points out that perhaps all along that is not something that should be fixed. Just maybe it is so inherent to your DNA that it's not something that can be changed. She postulates that in this "extrovert ideal" society, an introvert has to pretend to be outgoing and the life of the party to get noticed, get promoted, get married, etc., but the whole time you're pretending to be someone you're not.

What I've read that has been the most value is hearing how many other successes in life throughout history have been from introverts. She talks about us being in a culture of personality versus the culture of character that we used to be in. Imagine when it used to be all about how hard you worked, ambition, dedication, determination, yet now it is more about how your appearance looks, how convincing you are, etc. There is a chapter on discussing CEO's and how supposedly the best leaders are better off coming across confident even when they are making the wrong decisions for lack of spending the time and research on getting facts and deliberating on the answer, yet this is seen as better than a leader who doesn't sell himself as well with that confidence, but might choose to take longer to make his decision and what might ulimately be the smarter choice. I'm looking forward to further chapters on how I see all this relating to things like Facebook and even consumerism. Sell, sell, sell yourself, gotta look good, fluff over substance.

I think the book is a good read even if you aren't an introvert.

Dermot, she mentioned that same/similar joke in the first couple chapters, but it wasn't about engineers, it was "how do you know a Finnish introvert is interested in you? He's staring at your shoes and not his own." Apparently Finland is known for being introverted. Which in itself is an important point. She mentions how the ones who came to North America on a boat from Europe or elsewhere were possibly the ones more outgoing and less shy and perhaps more willing to take a chance. If being introverted is hereditary, then the idea is that there are more per capita extroverts in North America than there are in Europe or other countries where these people came from. Loud and boisterous Americans? What do you mean? lol She really tears into Anthony Robbins too. But in a factual, non-sheeple kind of way.

Check the book out. I think you would enjoy it.

[Jacko]

Along the same line of reasoning, the farther west one goes in America the more extroverts one encounters.

[DL4567]

What an interesting thread. Being an introvert myself, this has been a good read. Many years ago I read a book called "Personality Plus," and it talked about the 4 personality temperaments that all people fall into. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments
It starts off with a short test that lets you know exactly which one you are, or you can be a mix of more than one. Knowing what you are makes reading the book much more interesting. I highly recommend it as well:
http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Plus-Understand-Understanding-Yourself/dp/080075445X

Your mention of the author of your book tearing into Anthony Robbins reminds me of something the author of Personality Plus said. Most motivational seminars are "by sanguines, for sanguines." (sanguine being the most talkative, social people of the 4 temperaments). And that introverts (melancholics) won't benefit much from those seminars.

[Shep]

I too am a hardcore introvert. I've done quite a bit of research into myself and what makes me tick (partially for other things that I won't get into), and I have yet to come across a defining characteristic of introversion that doesn't fit. Enjoyment of solidarity? Check. Disliking of and/or easily overwhelmed by social gatherings? Check (and yes, even family counts). Deeper yet fewer relationships? Almost check (fewer, but none that are deep). Quiet demeanor? Check. Desire for verbal silence over conversation? Check. Preference of observation over involvement? Check. Lack of social interaction? Check. I am that guy who keeps track of every escape route, methodically avoids confrontations by placing myself in the area that will generate the least attention (gotta be careful though: too far away and people get suspicious and/or start looking for you), knows where every single visible security camera is located in the areas I frequent and how to avoid all of them, has developed (and uses) methods to disinterest anyone wanting to talk to me that I don't want to talk to, and is even known to wait around a while until the coast is clear. Bottom line: I'm just not a people person.

Let me put it this way: Besides church on Sundays and work, the only times I ever go around other people are when I'm shopping or at car shows, neither of which are regular occurrences. Even at work, I avoid confrontations at all costs, preferring emails and IMs over phone calls and trips to another cubicle and/or office. I'll even delay visits so I have less of them; instead of visiting my boss after every task I finish, I'll wait until I'm stuck on nearly all of my tasks before visiting him, excepting important time-sensitive tasks (which, again, I do through IM). The only "IRL" friends I have are those my parents have and know from church. I used to have some back in high school, but the last time we spoke was last Christmas, and it's September. And frankly, I like it this way. At car shows, I'll usually let my dad be the one to walk up to people and ask them questions (and he tends to have better questions anyways). Ditto for shopping. That's one thing I'm really hoping DeLorean ownership will change. I do want to be able to socialize more, especially with strangers, but I don't need to spend time with friends to be happy. Owning a DeLorean does that already. Well, a companion would be nice, but my D keeps me company. :approve:

[Mike C.]

This thread needed a poll.

Are you introverted or extroverted?

[Mike Z]

I would also consider myself an introvert but I've been way better in my adult years. I was quiet and sometimes awkward growing up but when I got older I just thought to myself I might as well enjoy life and I'm much more social now.

[Iznodmad]

Wow, reading the posts in this thread makes me very aware that I am introverted. I've always known it, but I never really think actively about it. Apparently it is a common theme among us. What is it that makes us want to own a car that attracts so much attention, when it clearly isn't what we truly desire? Perhaps it did (and still does) teach me how to deal with people better. I'm actually amazed that we even choose to interact with each other at all.

[Jonathan]

Quoted directly from page 63, I thought I would share in regards to those of us here online:

"Studies have shown that, indeed, introverts are more likely than extroverts to express intimate facts about themselves online that their family and friends would be surprised to read, to say that they can express the 'real me' online, and to spend more time in certain kinds of online discussions. They welcome the chance to communicate digitally. The same person who would never raise his hand in a lecture hall of two hundred people might blog to two thousand, or two million, without thinking twice. The same person who finds it difficult to introduce himself to strangers might establish a presence online and then extend these relationships into the real world."

The last number of pages I read spoke at length about the success of Stephen Wozniak (Apple) and how his success he himself attributed to being able to work, and think, alone. This was followed up with a chapter on the cubicle and open space work environments and their ill effects on creativity and productivity.

I guess what I see in a few of you starting out shy or reclusive, is different from myself in one small way and that is that I see myself going towards that as I get older instead of having already been there growing up. There's been lots of sports teams, classrooms, clubs and groups, and lots of social settings with small, medium, and large groups of people there. But I find myself being more and more at ease in the last number of years doing my own thing, and not always having to "on" with big groups of friends or coworkers or whatever. I'm sure there's an extreme side to it somewhere and at some point, but it's been enlightening reading someone else's take on how it's a-okay to want to have a little time to yourself. And actually prefer it that way.

Yay, fully agree that those of us answering yes to the introvert poll having picked an awfully high attention getting car to toot around in on your spare time. Not sure what that might be all about. Although I might contact the author to see if she would like to weigh in...

[Shep]

What is it that makes us want to own a car that attracts so much attention, when it clearly isn't what we truly desire?Personally, I own a D because it's my favorite car by far. Attention is more or less a "side effect" of ownership, not necessarily the reason for owning it, but still being a valid concern. Although I'm hoping I learn to handle small talk with strangers better. I tend to stumble over my words and "edit" what I'm saying midway through sentences. Maybe training and practice will help. It's unnoticeable over written medium though; I do all the editing before submitting posts (and I rewrote that last sentence three or four times, actually). Reason being: I know exactly the point I want to get across, but I'm half-focused on what words to use and half-focused on forming those words. There's barely any left to focus on whether or not I'm making sense, and often I'm not. This is why I wish I had a Bluetooth brain -- language wouldn't be a hindrance for me, and I could just upload my thoughts directly to whoever I'm talking to without all this unnecessary English stuff.


I'm actually amazed that we even choose to interact with each other at all.That's the wonder of the internet! If this were a group that met on regular occasions, I'd go once or twice and never attend again (also why I have no intention to join a DMC club). I'm terrible at socializing in person, but when it's over the internet, all those problems vanish, hence my active involvement here and my seemingly anonymous life. It's not terribly surprising this forum is as active with introverts as it is. What would be surprising to me is if the same proportion applies to in-person events (e.g. DCS).