turbo diesel delorean?

[pgringo]

now that people have finally "figured out" how to get gobs of power & speed out of turbo diesel motors, has anyone done a turbo diesel swap yet? i would guess there's even TD engines from europe that bolt up to the renault trans. the vw d24t maybe? bmw m21?

[pgringo]

ah. after some search-fu, it looks like the bmw m21d24 turbo diesel bolts up to the renault un1 transaxle as in the vixen motor homes! oh no. now i have another project on my list of wanna-builds.

well, my question still stands...has anyone done this yet?

[Dangermouse]

I have never heard of a diesel or TD conversion, even in Europe where diesels have been popular for years.

[Nicholas R]

ah. after some search-fu, it looks like the bmw m21d24 turbo diesel bolts up to the renault un1 transaxle as in the vixen motor homes! oh no. now i have another project on my list of wanna-builds.

well, my question still stands...has anyone done this yet?

There is more than one production bellhousing used with a renault UN1, are you sure it's the same as the DeLorean?

And I believe the answer is no, no one has.

[pgringo]

There is more than one production bellhousing used with a renault UN1, are you sure it's the same as the DeLorean?


i have no idea if it bolts up to the b28f bellhousing setup, but i understand that the un1 was mated to the m21d24 in a production vehicle so that means the proper bellhousing exists. the m21d24 bolt pattern/bellhousing may be common in europe. i don't know. further research is needed. i'll probably find out through bmw_524td/vixen folks...(ie. ask what trans bolt up to that block).

cheers!

[DMCVegas]

The purpose of a bellhousing isn't just to mate a Transmission/Transaxle to an engine and to house the clutch/torque convertor. The other purpose it serves is to allow for multiple engine/transmission combinations. The bellhousing itself acting as the adapter with different bolt patterns on each side to make this possible.

It does indeed seem that the BMW diesel was mated to the UN369 transaxle (or some other variant used here). However there are a couple of things to consider. The first is that just because it was done, that doesn't mean that you might easily find that specific part. In this case a bellhousing. Because without that part, you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting things to work. Find it or fab it, you'll need one of the other. I have pre-production sales material for the Eagle Premier for example that shows Eagle had adapted the AMC 2.5 Jeep engine to the UN369, but it never made it into production. It may exist, but you might not find it.

Another thing to consider here is that while quickly browsing a few boards for the Vixen and BMW engine, this may not have been a very common engine here stateside. So locating one of these engines, let alone upgrading it may not be quite in the cards. Aside from that, while Diesel does indeed offer many, MANY advantages over gasoline (mostly economy and being able to refine & produce one's own fuel), the power still isn't quite up there for a passenger car. GM as an example is coming out with Diesel passenger cars soon, and even then they're only hitting about 160bhp. Hell, you could massage that and more out of the existing PRV lump for far cheaper than what an engine swap would cost.

If you positively, absolutely, without any doubt MUST have a diesel conversion, I would recommend ditching the UN369 for a Porsche 6-speed manual (you'll have to fabricate brackets), since I've been told it's shorter, it will mount up to the half-shafts of the DMC-12 no problem, and can handle the torque you're going to throw at it. Then I'd wait a couple of years to hit the junkyards for the 3.0L V6 twin turbo diesels from the Porsche Cayenne or a Chrylser EcoDiesel from it's truck lineup (which when you compare the specs, these may all be the same engine actually from VM Motori S.p.A.). Drop that combination in and see what you get. But be warned, engine swaps are long, difficult processes that usually don't see completion. Only for those with true grit and a blind determination to see the crazy ride all the way to the end.

[pgringo]

well, unfortunately for me...i'm all about the idi and/or mechanical diesels. lol. i've got to finish my current project before i move forward with any of my other diesel swap wanna builds anyway.

current project: d24t into 1981 volvo 262c bertone coupe. hopefully running under its own power before the end of 2013 :banghead: shooting for 250+hp
next?: 6bt into 1970's dodge ramcharger 4x4
then?: mtdi into vw cabriolet

if i run across any of this stuff for cheap i may be inclined to just jump on them and have them sit and wait for the other pieces of the puzzles to fall in my lap. :)

i really really appreciate your input. you've certainly got me thinking.

[Nicholas R]

[QUOTE=DMCVegas;91051
If you positively, absolutely, without any doubt MUST have a diesel conversion, I would recommend ditching the UN369 for a Porsche 6-speed manual (you'll have to fabricate brackets), since I've been told it's shorter, it will mount up to the half-shafts of the DMC-12 no problem, and can handle the torque you're going to throw at it. [/QUOTE]

Which transmission are you talking about? Just curious. As far as I knew both the 915 and the G50 were 5-speeds. I know some of the very new transaxles are 6-speeds but I'm sure acquiring one would be extremely expensive.

[DMCVegas]

Which transmission are you talking about? Just curious. As far as I knew both the 915 and the G50 were 5-speeds. I know some of the very new transaxles are 6-speeds but I'm sure acquiring one would be extremely expensive.

The 993's used an updated version of the G50 that has the extra gear. It does appear to be a bit longer, but it was successfully transplanted into the DeLorean a while back with that 3-Rotor conversion. A quick search online shows that the most expensive 6-speed G50 is less than $2K from junkyards. Here are some pics and info of rebuilt units:

http://www.californiamotorsports.net/G50%206%20speed.htm

[Rich W]

The 993's used an updated version of the G50 that has the extra gear. It does appear to be a bit longer, but it was successfully transplanted into the DeLorean a while back with that 3-Rotor conversion. A quick search online shows that the most expensive 6-speed G50 is less than $2K from junkyards. Here are some pics and info of rebuilt units:

http://www.californiamotorsports.net/G50%206%20speed.htm

IIRC, the stock DeLorean axle shafts and CV joints did not fit well with this conversion and custom axles had to be fabricated.

The stock setup did not last long and I am not sure how long the first custom axle setup lasted (they may still be working?).

[DMCVegas]

IIRC, the stock DeLorean axle shafts and CV joints did not fit well with this conversion and custom axles had to be fabricated.

The stock setup did not last long and I am not sure how long the first custom axle setup lasted (they may still be working?).

I may have been told incorrectly that the flange sides were the same from the 915 Transaxle up to the G50. I'll have to research that a bit more then...

Do you know what part of the setup failed? I do know for a fact that the 915 drops in with no problems. Duke used one in his Chevy Vortec 4.3L swap, and Marc Levy has one paired with a VQ35. One thing that I did notice about both of their cars however is that the engines sat comfortably back from the firewall. That 20B Rotary though was just right up on it. Could the problems have been with more severe angles on the CV Joints? Or was it a bolt pattern issue, or even weakness with the half shafts themselves?

Please, let me know. As of right now, I've still at least another 2 years or so before my car will even see pavement again, and even though I have a spare PRV I've still not ruled out an engine swap yet.

[Rich W]

I may have been told incorrectly that the flange sides were the same from the 915 Transaxle up to the G50. I'll have to research that a bit more then...

Do you know what part of the setup failed? I do know for a fact that the 915 drops in with no problems. Duke used one in his Chevy Vortec 4.3L swap, and Marc Levy has one paired with a VQ35. One thing that I did notice about both of their cars however is that the engines sat comfortably back from the firewall. That 20B Rotary though was just right up on it. Could the problems have been with more severe angles on the CV Joints? Or was it a bolt pattern issue, or even weakness with the half shafts themselves?

Please, let me know. As of right now, I've still at least another 2 years or so before my car will even see pavement again, and even though I have a spare PRV I've still not ruled out an engine swap yet.

Again, IIRC, it was in fact the CV angles being too severe. No problem with the bolting up to the other stock DeLorean suspension parts.
Suggestions were made to get custom axles made through a shop that builds custom racing axles for Porsches. I think he went that route.

Getting back to the Diesel aspect of this thread, although I have thought about putting a VW TDI into a DeLorean as far back as a decade ago,
I was more concerned with getting the gear ratios "right" for a Diesel conversion (this is where the Vixen transmission might come in handy).

Not sure if there would be any easier way to modify a DeLorean manual transmission and final drive to take better advantage of the lower RPM
Torque and HP in a Diesel engine, and still have a great "overdrive gear" where you could maximize MPG during long trips on the highway.

Thoughts?

[Nicholas R]

This is very intriguing. I have the Renault transmission pushed 2 inches forward in my car to fit the new engine. I was able to get away with this because the automatic transmissions have the deeper bellhousing. In essence, I put my manual output flanges where the automatics usually are.

On the car with the 2JZ engine though, the transmission was pushed 4 inches forward in the car and custom axles were made. However, despite the much more severe angle, the car still uses the DeLorean CV joints, the only custom part is the splined shaft running between the two which is a little bit longer.

[tommyrich]

167101671116712


I can say from experience that the 915 output flanges do match the Delorean exactly, if you get the Turbo flanges. They are harder to come by and are something like 110mm vs 88mm in diameter. With my swap, the transmission was set so the axles were perpendicular to the transmission. The engine still has plenty of room (without the stock Delorean muffler). I had plenty of room to move the whole assembly forward, but I liked the idea of not constantly exercising my CV joints while I drive. I am not sure of the output flanges on the G50, but it sure looks like a nice transmission.
Tom

[DMCVegas]

Not sure if there would be any easier way to modify a DeLorean manual transmission and final drive to take better advantage of the lower RPM
Torque and HP in a Diesel engine, and still have a great "overdrive gear" where you could maximize MPG during long trips on the highway.

Thoughts?

:thinkin:

What about a donor Ring and Pinion from a Renault Fuego? 3.78:1 and theres plenty whole units out there for about $200. A pain to get that pinion on, but doable.




On the car with the 2JZ engine though, the transmission was pushed 4 inches forward in the car and custom axles were made. However, despite the much more severe angle, the car still uses the DeLorean CV joints, the only custom part is the splined shaft running between the two which is a little bit longer.

That's very true, but not quite the same per se. The 2JZ (and IMO that car sounds cool as the 2JZ-D) engine was so long that he ended up cutting the rear portion of the chassis. Since that was inevitable that relieves allot of stress about having to push the engine so far forward since breaching the frame yielded more space for the engine. So when you look at that installation, the powerplant isn't slammed up against the firewall. While those CV Joints are subject to a steeper angle, they're still not shoved as far forward as on the rotary car.

[Timebender]

Getting back to the Diesel aspect of this thread, although I have thought about putting a VW TDI into a DeLorean as far back as a decade ago,
I was more concerned with getting the gear ratios "right" for a Diesel conversion (this is where the Vixen transmission might come in handy).



So are you basically saying a VW TDI engine (which I assume is from a FWD VW), can be mounted in the back of the D to a a vixen or possibly D tranny?
I'm asking because my limited experience with transmissions/power trains is in front engine/RWD (my old Datsun wagon and my son's 1970.5 Camaro), and air-cooled VW's.

Never really understood how a FWD and engine are hooked up, and every time I look into the engine bay on our 2000 Turbo Beetle I cringe, aside from doing routine maintenance stuff.

[Nicholas R]

So are you basically saying a VW TDI engine (which I assume is from a FWD VW), can be mounted in the back of the D to a a vixen or possibly D tranny?
I'm asking because my limited experience with transmissions/power trains is in front engine/RWD (my old Datsun wagon and my son's 1970.5 Camaro), and air-cooled VW's.

Never really understood how a FWD and engine are hooked up, and every time I look into the engine bay on our 2000 Turbo Beetle I cringe, aside from doing routine maintenance stuff.

With the proper adapter plate you could bolt any engine to any transmission. They won't bolt up directly though. As far as gear ratios, our transmission has a large number of different ratios available especially through the GT 40 replica crowd.

[pgringo]

fwd vs. rwd has more to do with the transmission than anything else really. people regularly take transversely mounted engines from fwd applications and adapt them to inline rwd vehicles.

[tommyrich]

fwd vs. rwd has more to do with the transmission than anything else really. people regularly take transversely mounted engines from fwd applications and adapt them to inline rwd vehicles.

I did.

[Timebender]

Good to know. I always assumed that because the FWD engine on a VW is transversally mounted across the engine bay, it couldn't be mounted long ways as the engine would essentially be sideways. Then I saw a diagram and found out I was wrong. It may look funny, but it would be a heck of a lot easier to work on as you'd have access to both sides.

Is the consensus to go with the Vixen tranny, or wold it be safe to stay stock?

I'd love to find a cheap D that's engineless and go this route. I drive over 300 miles round trip every day for work and going diesel would be a huge advantage to my wallet.

[Timebender]

I did.

What did you do?

[Nicholas R]

Good to know. I always assumed that because the FWD engine on a VW is transversally mounted across the engine bay, it couldn't be mounted long ways as the engine would essentially be sideways. Then I saw a diagram and found out I was wrong. It may look funny, but it would be a heck of a lot easier to work on as you'd have access to both sides.

Is the consensus to go with the Vixen tranny, or wold it be safe to stay stock?

I'd love to find a cheap D that's engineless and go this route. I drive over 300 miles round trip every day for work and going diesel would be a huge advantage to my wallet.

For all I intents and purposes, the Vixen transmission and the stock transmission are the same transmission. The only difference might be the bell housing bolt pattern (and likely a small difference in ratios). No one is really sure because they're so rare that few have actually laid their eyes on one.

Also for the most part, an engine is just an engine and can be mounted in whatever orientation you want. It's the transmission that determines where and what direction the output will be. The LS blocks for instance have been mounted longitudinally with the engine bolted directly to the transmission in the Camaros, longitudinally with the transmission mounted in the rear of the car connected to the engine by a torque tube in the Corvettes, and transversely in the SS Impalas to a transverse transmission.

With the right mounts and adapters you can adapt just about anything.

[Timebender]

Good to know and thanks for the small lesson Nicholas (off-topic we're dying to see the new episode of Doctor Who)..

So then I'm guessing I need the computer for the specific engine (if it's a newer VW TDI), wiring harness and probably a fuel pump for diesel0 - unless a DeLorean fuel pump can handle the different PSI of diesel, aside from an adapter to mate the engine and transmission.

How hard is it to route the harness and get it to hook up to the dash, get in a glow plug light, etc?

[pgringo]

Good to know and thanks for the small lesson Nicholas (off-topic we're dying to see the new episode of Doctor Who)..

So then I'm guessing I need the computer for the specific engine (if it's a newer VW TDI), wiring harness and probably a fuel pump for diesel0 - unless a DeLorean fuel pump can handle the different PSI of diesel, aside from an adapter to mate the engine and transmission.

How hard is it to route the harness and get it to hook up to the dash, get in a glow plug light, etc?

read up on mtdi. you need a particular era tdi and the mechanical injection pump from a particular range rover from the UK. BOLT ON BABY! no computers!

for a while now, I've wanted to drop one into a mk1 cabriolet.

[pgringo]

oh yeah...the fuel pump for a diesel is built in to the injection pump as the "lift pump". I have run my Benz from a gallon jug strapped in under the hood.

[Timebender]

That's good to know. So just leave the old pump in the tank or seal that off somehow?

[pgringo]

That's good to know. So just leave the old pump in the tank or seal that off somehow?

pull the sending unit. remove the in-tank pump and.replace it with a piece of tubing or viton hose. also remove the wiring for the pump.