By pass accumulator and adding regulator...

[Mydmc5898]

I'm going to bypass the fuel accumulator.
I want to make sure this is right first... I'm going to connect the pressure lines together. Inlet and outlet.

The return line has part number 106996 attaching it to the other lines.
Can I just replace this part? And if so what size do I need?
Or is there another method?

I have the stock regulator that is on the 3.0. I haven't had a pressure test done yet. Assuming it's good, should I replace it anyway? And if so is there a preferred regulator to use after market?

Thanks
Darryl

[AdmiralSenn]

I'm not sure what you're going to gain from bypassing the accumulator. I may be wrong - my experience with K-Jet was painful and short - but I don't think it can hurt an EFI setup whether it's working or not. Lots of people just leave them in there. Unless it's leaking gas I wouldn't worry about it. It's too much of a hassle to get in there and do the job and the benefits are minimal.

Adding another regulator before it as in a 3.0 EFI setup really just makes the accumulator moot. (I think.)

As far as brands of regulators I have no idea. My setup is all custom hoses so I went with an Aeromotive, but your selection of 'stock fit' regulators is going to be limited to your usual parts house brands (Bosch, Beck Arnley, etc etc). If you need to replace the regulator it came with I would get the exact original OEM replacement - besides my own stupidity causing problems, I have had awful experiences with cheaper fuel system parts deciding to suddenly fail internally or fountain gas out the side. Almost lost my daily driver to a leak that way once. I learned my lesson - you can spend $25 on the crappy part now, or ~$70-100 (your part cost may vary) on the correct one with an added risk of replacing the car.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It's got to be better to leave the working accumulator installed. Not only will it hold rest pressure but it also smooths out the pulse of power and pressure that some pumps make.

[Mydmc5898]

The reason I wanted to bypass it was if there was a fuel pressure problem...
I think I'm just getting confused.
Just to go over it quick... The car is using the 3.0 stock regulator with the accumulator.
I'm not sure what works or doesn't. With school I'm limited on time, so I have yet to check pressure.
The symptoms so far is that between 90-215 the car has issues starting.
I've played with all the cranking numbers and afterstart etc... And it will sometimes work fine and fire right up. Other times it will need to be cranked... Or if I turn the key on maybe a handful of times it will then start.
Once in a great while it struggles to find an idle and will want to stall.
I dropped all the afterstart numbers from 180 to 90 down to 100%
And it seems to help, but still has issues.

If I start the car at 190 or up, so long as it is within 5mins or so of shutting down, it starts just fine.
So it seems like a hot/warm start issue. That's why I thought if I dumb the accumulator it would be good.
Otherwise it runs perfect... Once it starts.

So first step I made a datalog while driving. Haven't been able to make one while it acts up.
I will try and upload it tonight.
Also I know I need to check fuel pressure. What pressure should I be looking at?
Just thinking too, is there a gauge I could add to always leave in the fuel feed to monitor the pressure. Like an analog gauge on line with the fuel line?
Would I add that on the pressure or return line too?
I'm sure most of these are stupid questions. But I just want to finish the 3.0 set up so I can work on other items in need of attention.

Thanks again guys, sorry to be a pain.

Anyone available to help over the phone? :p
I'm better at that.
I would still post updates here too, just so anyone else in my shoes could follow as well.

[dmc6960]

I haven't had a pressure test done yet.


The reason I wanted to bypass it was if there was a fuel pressure problem...

I think your have your order of operations a little out of order. Just stop and think about it.

[Mydmc5898]

I know, I didn't explain right at first.
I have been typing on my iPhone on breaks at work, so my messages are always rushed.
Bypassing was more or less an "if" question. Assuming the accumulator is bad and I have no or little pressure.
I thought since it wasn't needed anymore I could just dump it. Assuming (incorrectly) it would just screw up the system and be an unnecessary variable. And if the regulator is bad than what is the best fix? Replacing it with the same one, or use an after market. And is it best to add an inline gauge. Just for future tests. I haven't looked to see if they make an inline gauge.
Since I only have a short time at work to play with the car I'm trying to get as many "what ifs" out if the way now.

I'm just curious because it seems to be an intermittent issue.
All day it was running and starting fine, left work stopped to get gas and boom, stopped starting.
I want to identify all mechanical possibilities. This way it will just leave me the computer.... Hopefully.

But so I have it correct:
If low pressure
Accumulator doesn't matter if it works or not.
Keep the same type of regulator

Would this be it?

Thanks again,
Darryl

[Rich]

I'm just curious because it seems to be an intermittent issue.
All day it was running and starting fine, left work stopped to get gas and boom, stopped starting.
I want to identify all mechanical possibilities.

Yes, the hot no-start condition you describe is consistent with either a bad accumulator or a fuel leak, even a tiny one, somewhere between the pump and the pressure regulator. Could also be a bad check valve in the pump. These are all mechanical possibilities (bad components and not bad computer).

Here is what Bosch tells us about the function of the accumulator in the K-Jet system - read it carefully and consider it against the symptoms:


"Fuel accumulator
The fuel accumulator maintains the pressure in the fuel system for a certain time after the engine has been switched off. When the engine is running it serves to deaden the noise of the electric fuel pump. After the engine has been switched off, the fuel accumulator maintains the pressure in the fuel system in order to facilitate re-starting, particularly when the engine is hot. The design of the accumulator housing is such that it deadens the noise from the fuel pump when the engine is running. The interior of the fuel accumulator is divided into two chambers by means of a diaphragm. One chamber serves as the accumulator volume for the fuel, the other chamber contains a spring. During operation the accumulator chamber is filled with fuel. This causes the diaphragm to bend back against the force of the spring until it is halted by the stops in the spring chamber. The diaphragm remains in this position, which corresponds to the maximum accumulator volume, as long as the engine is running."

[AdmiralSenn]

I think your have your order of operations a little out of order. Just stop and think about it.

A thousand times this. Acquire an appropriate fuel pressure gauge and test that system. One of my biggest regrets is waiting as long as I did to put a proper fuel pressure tester on my car - I never correctly tested my K-Jet, but my EFI has had a gauge built in from day one. I probably could have fixed the system I had and done my EFI right the first time if I'd grabbed a gauge first.

[Mydmc5898]

Sorry for the late reply. We've had issues with our Internet and it is still down. So I was wait g to repost with my datalogs I've made since I last posted.

We checked for fuel leaks and didn't find any. Pump is new, however that could be an issue if it is faulty.
Well there was fuel on top of the fuel pump.
A new boot was installed, however when I opened up the fuel pump cover and looked down after pulling the boot up I found the pump was sitting under gas. I will try and take pictures later and send them to show what I mean.
When the key is one and let the system pressurize it doesn't shoot fuel out anywhere.
But I could smell it once in a great while. I assumed it was the fuel ontop of the pump.
Maybe I over filled?

Since I lowered the cranking numbers to 100 from about 90 degrees and up, it seems to be starting better.
Sometimes...


I was just looking in TunerStudio. The option under engine constants to integrate the target of 14.7 ratio was turned off. Should this be on? I'm running at around 12.5 at idle after warmup.
I don't seem to be getting good gas mileage either.
It seems on par with my Jeep which is 13.5MPG inner city driving.

Thanks,
Darryl.

And as soon as I get the Internet up I will post my data logs.
Still waiting to get a gauge in my car as well.
Just haven't had time at work.

[Mydmc5898]

Besides the 14.7 question.
I won't touch anything megasquirt wise until I test the pressure and send it here.

Thanks again!

[Mydmc5898]

I had to order some parts from SpecialTauto. So once the car goes in this week to have them installed, I will have the pressure checked.
What pressure should it be running btw?

In the meantime this is my data log and most recent MSQ.
So here is a list of the issues...

1 Trouble warm starting still

2 seems to sometimes buck or bog down usually in 2nd and 3rd gear at around 2000 RPM. Not always just sometimes.
i notice it more under more aggressive driving. not sure if it shows up on the datalog.

3 has a very low idle. 550-650 when the cooling fans kick on. is there a way to fix it?

4 when idling it seems to surge. not much just a little.



update has the starting issue
update 2 is some driving


thanks again for the help, any advice is appreciated!
Darryl

[AdmiralSenn]

I will be the first to admit that I haven't done a lot of log analysis and it's been a while, so please don't take this as gospel truth. This is more of a 'things to look into' type deal. I would still double check your fuel pressure before changing anything else like you said. Typically you want 43-45 psi for EFI - specifics vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but that's the number I keep seeing. The regulator should take care of any pressures that go above that, we just need to make sure you're at around those numbers.

I also don't have TunerStudio on this machine so I can't look at your file just yet. I will try to get to it but this is finals week so I'm a bit slammed.

Here's some things I noticed.

It looks like you're actually idling at ~400-500 RPM for a good bit of the first log. General consensus is that you should be at around 900 or so. Usually this means not enough air, so you'd want to bump your idle motor farther open. I'm not sure what kind of idle system you have though. You've also got a fairly rich AFR, in the 8-10 range, for most of that. See around the 100s mark on update.msl. That should help with the low idle and lean it out a little bit, which *might* also help your idle surge if it's starving for air. Don't go too crazy, usually you want it to idle at least a little rich, around 13 to 13.5.

Your pulsewidths the first few unsuccessful starts are really low - 4.4 vs 10+ on a successful start. Not sure why, just something I noticed.

Are you using a modern wideband oxygen sensor (e.g. a four-wire heated unit)? Your AFR readings on startup are crazy rich but that could be the sensor warming up - I know the Bosch sensors recommended on the Innovate LC-1 don't deliver a signal until they're warmed up, although mine reads super lean when it's off. If the sensor is accurate and you're really running in the 3 or 4 to 1 range on startup, your problem would be either too much fuel or not enough air.

Next time it has problems starting, try holding the throttle partway open (say halfway to full throttle) and see if that helps.

Bucking under hard driving could be a few things. Can you log it and point out the segment where it happens?

[Mydmc5898]

The car is at work now.
I got some parts that have to be installed, so while its in we are going to test the pressure.
I did find fuel resting on top of the fuel pump. It was nearing the brim.
Don't think that is suppose to happen.

As for the starting pulse... I wanted to change that depending how the pressure turns out in the fuel.
How much should I go up?

As for the pedal, that sometimes seems to help. If I give it a little push sometimes it starts right up.
The idle motor is the a GM 4 wire stepper.

The o2 is a Wideband 4 wire LC-1.
The right side of the car has carbon built around be exhaust tip. The right side is clean.
The O2 is on the left side as well.

I will make another datalog hopefully this week if I get time to work on it again.
I hear you on school. I have several projects lining up.

Thanks for the help!

[Mydmc5898]

Alrighty, we are working on the car as I type this.
Pressure tested at 50psi and comes down to just under that while running.
The fuel lines definitely pressurize as well.

I also undid some changes and it seems to be running very well.
However we noticed that when the car wants to start it is sending a signal to the ecu, the lines fill with gas, and it will start, other times it seems that the test light on the spark plug is showing the car isn't firing. It's just dumping fuel. The test light indicates there is no spark.
All four wires going to the EDIS coil pack are operating. But the plug wires aren't getting anything.
Then randomly they do. Maybe a bad coil pack?
And his only seems to happen when the car is warm or hot... Wonder if the pack is just bad...?
Or maybe just a computer setting?

Any thoughts?

Thanks
-Darryl


Also to add to this, if you crank and crank and suddenly let off the key you see the test light show a quick spark. Sometimes it's enough to start it.
Also Matt Cramer has said based on my log, it's showing a random missfire.

[Spittybug]

Alrighty, we are working on the car as I type this.
Pressure tested at 50psi and comes down to just under that while running.
The fuel lines definitely pressurize as well.

I also undid some changes and it seems to be running very well. Such as what?
However we noticed that when the car wants to start it is sending a signal to the ecu, the lines fill with gas, and it will start, other times it seems that the test light on the spark plug is showing the car isn't firing. It's just dumping fuel. The test light indicates there is no spark.
All four wires going to the EDIS coil pack are operating. But the plug wires aren't getting anything.
Then randomly they do. Maybe a bad coil pack?
And his only seems to happen when the car is warm or hot... Wonder if the pack is just bad...?
Or maybe just a computer setting?

Any thoughts?

Thanks
-Darryl

Also to add to this, if you crank and crank and suddenly let off the key you see the test light show a quick spark. Sometimes it's enough to start it.
Also Matt Cramer has said based on my log, it's showing a random missfire.

If you are confirming that there is current to the coils from the MS unit (actually, they ground through the MS), but no spark..... ipso facto problem is with coils! The hot vs. cold symptoms reinforce this. I do NOT believe this to be MS related.

[Mydmc5898]

The Tunerstudio was asking for me to set the target AFR to 14.7.
It was an option in the settings. When I did that I didn't smell as much gas, however it did seem to run worse.
Once I set the settings back to the way they were before it seems to run sooooo much better and smoother.
My bad. However there still seems to be a miss.

Now on to the coils. We did get a new coil pack and it was randomly loosing spark just like the old one.
The module is brand new as well.
I agree about MS. I pulled the fuse for the ecu and the problem of random spark loss was still present.
We are closing shop for tonight.
But we ordered a new VR sensor to see if that has an issue.
When MS is connected it still shows that the VR is picking up the signal.
Unless it's just reading wrong and that's why there is no spark?
My heat shield is missing that I got from Harvey.
Don't know if it would have helped or even fit with the new exhaust.

Nice part about working at a shop is you can return parts.

-Darryl

[Mydmc5898]

I should clarify that it's hard to tell if when it's missing spark if its picking up the crank. Sometimes it looks as if the rpm gets frozen on screen. Like a glitch or something. I assumed this was do to to my friends laptop.

[Spittybug]

Are you using the TS coil test mode? That will let you isolate ignition and diagnose it. I think the AFR target setting you are referring to is simply part of the closed loop fuel settings.

I'm going back to your comment about the "wires going back to the coil pack are operating". What does your trigger log show?

[Mydmc5898]

I wasn't aware of that mode. Tomorrow I will give it a shot.
Where is it in TS? Is it in the upgraded version?

Not sure on the log either. I've only been posting them, I don't have a log viewer.
I can make one and post it.

I will attempt to do it tomorrow. If not Saturday will be the next best day.
I appreciate the help too!

Thanks,
Darryl

[Spittybug]

No offense intended Darryl, but it sounds like you've jumped into some fairly complicated stuff without all the necessary learning that it requires.

I would strongly suggest you get the current versions of Tuner Studio and Megalog viewer so that you can have access to all the necessary tools. There are way too many variables to try and solve blindly.

I am the first to point out that the volumes of documentation on the MS forums can be overwhelming (and not organized as well as it could be), but there are precious few shortcuts in this area......

Most of us are more than willing to help, but we need some good data to be able to rule things out.

[Mydmc5898]

Being that I work 48+ hours a week and attend school on my days off, not counting all of my responsibilities at home. I simply lack the time to do the research to fix this myself.
Actually, to be honest in another forum I posted in, I did in fact pay $13,000 for an extensive amount of work to be done. Which included a fully running car. I have the receipts even!
But since that work wasn't preformed I've had to have a crash course. Had the work been properly done I would be asking about door realignments, or how best to refurbish the interior.
However no offensive taken.
I also had all of those programs downloaded (megatune not tuner studio to be honest) in which is now a missing laptop.
So I'm at the mercy of this board and Megasquirt forums.
So please excuse the silly questions.
This isn't meant to sound mean, but I feel it's best to explain why I'm in need of help.
But it's very frustrating doing the work that was paid for.

I will try and download the log programs I need in my friends computer, once that is done I will make a log.
Expect more questions lol.

Thanks again,
Darryl

[Mydmc5898]

So none of the surrounding stores has a VR sensor that is identical to what came with my EDIS kit. Using another one doesn't allow it to sit properly. I'll have to do a scavenger hunt for one.
Assuming all the hardware is working correctly, the module, coil pack, VR sensor... Should I start with the wires?
What order do I need to proceed to I guess is my question.

As far as the downloading goes, had to turn the laptop over to my friend for the night. I'll try and get those programs taken care of.

Thanks,
Darryl

[Spittybug]

I fold.

[Mydmc5898]

I know I pretty much require someone to walk me through step by step.
However I don't want to tie anyone's time up. But any ideas are welcomed. As of now I'm just taking the car home as is. I'm waiting on some MS forums as well. If its just the EDIS at least it's isolated. Any googling the symptoms came up with a a few possibilities.

[AdmiralSenn]

Fair warning: I haven't ever messed with ignition via MS, and trying to troubleshoot this kind of thing over the Internet is stupid hard. I didn't even think about spark not being present as a problem - goes to show you how much I know about troubleshooting other people's cars...

It sounds like you're on the right track with the EDIS system since your fuel pressure is good but I doubt there's anything further we can do that Matt wouldn't be able to do faster and more accurately. If any MS problem is fixable he's the one to go to. But I do agree with Owen, this sounds more like a hardware problem somewhere. It could be something as simple as a bad solder joint somewhere or a heat-damaged wire, or a dying sensor, or noise from another circuit - this last one is a particular problem on some installations, and DMCs tend to be pretty electrically noisy especially if the circuits go through bad grounds.

I second the suggestion that you use TunerStudio. I think pretty much everyone expects it before they'll be willing to help fix stuff.

I would get a good log of the VR sensor as it tries to start, make sure the pattern looks healthy, and proceed from there. If it looks like it's occasionally missing a tooth where it shouldn't be, then you've learned something. If it looks good across the board then you will need to diagnose parts and replace.

Are you using a toothed wheel on the crankshaft? I assume so since you're using EDIS but you never know.

I found a few things for you to read if you want to really get into this - and you may have to in order to understand and fix the problem. I don't recommend changing anything based on these just yet, just read them for the theory (for example MegaManual is somewhat old and assumes MegaTune for most of the settings).

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/EDIS.htm
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm
http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/vrsensor/megasquirt_vr_index.htm

[Mydmc5898]

I'm very sorry I didn't get your post, for some reason I never got an email from DMCTALK saying I got a response.

I am using a tooth 36-1 wheel.
I do have a promising update. I decided to check all the wiring again and also check out all the hardware.
I swapped out every part of the EDIS with the exception of the tooth wheel. Each time I had the same problems.
I decided to check the wiring because that has been a huge issue. And my gut was saying that was it.
Per a Autolabs forum. They suggested I run a ground wire to a bolt on the EDIS and ground it ( although i found mixed onfo if this works or not) to the valve cover (which I found has a nice leak).
I then ran the engine and experienced the same problems.
I also ran new spark plug wires on the chance one was bad. At the same time I went and checked every wire by taking off all coverings and also checking for any damage etc... I found that one of the wires from the VR was loose, as was a ground, but it still when I checked everytime tested good. After fixing all of those I seem to be good now!
Usually after the second crank it starts!
So now I just have to work on some start up settings.... Hopefully!

Thanks too for the help and suggestions, working on the setting now,
-Darryl

[Ron]

I'm very sorry I didn't get your post, for some reason I never got an email from DMCTALK saying I got a response.
If you don't subscribe to the thread, you will only get email notifications when you get PMs...

[Mydmc5898]

I was getting them at first, I thought anyway. Maybe I did something a didn't realize it.

[vwdmc16]

Hey Owen, im picking up more EFI parts, Getting this Aeromotive regulator and I was wondering how you connected/adapted the 12mm Banjo Fuel fitting from the filter to the -6 Inlet of the Regulator? I may end up relocated the Fuel Filter into the left side pontoon or something in which case I will have to make all sorts of new hoses. Just wondering if you found something to make it easier.



http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/AEI-13129_ml.jpg

[Spittybug]

I moved my fuel filter into the engine bay. I had bad luck getting a banjo fitting from Jegs. The ones they kept sending did not thread into the hose (threads cut on exterior of the hard pipe that goes inside the braided hose) and relied only on the friction of the braiding inside the fitting end cap to not come off. No way.......not for the pressures we're talking. So I went with a tight radius fitting. You can see my regulator on the end of my fuel rail on the other side.

It's not your eyes, the entire cooling system has been moved to the driver's side to make a hole for the supercharger project (on summer hell hot hold).

[AdmiralSenn]

Hey Owen, im picking up more EFI parts, Getting this Aeromotive regulator and I was wondering how you connected/adapted the 12mm Banjo Fuel fitting from the filter to the -6 Inlet of the Regulator? I may end up relocated the Fuel Filter into the left side pontoon or something in which case I will have to make all sorts of new hoses. Just wondering if you found something to make it easier.



http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/AEI-13129_ml.jpg

I used a straight 12mm -> AN-6 adapter, then a 90 degree AN-6 swivel fitting and then ran regular AN-6 hose and a straight AN-6 fitting to the regulator (okay, technically I ran it to the entire engine but your setup is a little different).