View Full Version : Engine 3.0 / 2.8 teardown
I'm doing a side by side tear down of a 3.0 Premier, and the D's 2.8 and learning alot.
If you have any requests for pictures / dimensions / etc. Let me know. Send me a PM incase I don't see this thread.
Right now I have them torn down to a long block. My primary interest were the Heads and the upper block. Heads are nearly identical save for the injector ports on the 2.8. I am curious if its possible to have an intake spacer machined that would include injector ports for the D's intake manifold.
Anyway, any requests for pictures?
timothymoore
10-02-2013, 10:37 PM
pictures would be great to see the differences and similarities between the 2.
Exolis
10-03-2013, 08:03 AM
Take pictures of everything!
Though some ideas that come to mind that might be helpful for others planning to do a swap is: Mounting Points (To Body and Transmission), Intake Manifold and Valley, possibly exhaust manifold, etc.
We are compiling a complete 3.0 swap thread on the other site.
I don't know about yourself, but I tried to take pictures when taking everything apart on my engine, but i either forgot, or I didnt want to keep washing my hands every 5 minutes to take a picture. I supposed you offered though, I kind of figured people would say "Take pictures of everything". Easy to say from a computer chair, a little more challenging to do when wrenching on an engine.
jawn101
10-03-2013, 10:24 PM
We are compiling a complete 3.0 swap thread on the other site.
I don't know about yourself, but I tried to take pictures when taking everything apart on my engine, but i either forgot, or I didnt want to keep washing my hands every 5 minutes to take a picture. I supposed you offered though, I kind of figured people would say "Take pictures of everything". Easy to say from a computer chair, a little more challenging to do when wrenching on an engine.
One tip I found useful - I asked my family to dig out any old, crappy digital cameras they had shoved in drawers after they had moved on to nicer ones. I have a couple that are just for "garage" use - you'd be surprised how durable they actually are. Can handle a lot of grease and throwing around if you don't care what they look like when you're done :)
That avoids the hand-washing part anyway. I just keep one in my pocket at all times and take as many pictures as I can.
That is a decent point. I did try this but my crappy cameras are very crappy! Grainy, and blurry if you do not hold them perfectly still. So, now my crappy camera is my cell phone. Wish is a tad bit of a problem. Perhaps I need to invest in a nicer crappy camera, haha.
jawn101
10-03-2013, 10:33 PM
That is a decent point. I did try this but my crappy cameras are very crappy! Grainy, and blurry if you do not hold them perfectly still. So, now my crappy camera is my cell phone. Wish is a tad bit of a problem. Perhaps I need to invest in a nicer crappy camera, haha.
Reach out to family and friends on this one. I bet you'll find plenty of cameras from a few years ago tucked away in drawers just searching for a new home. I did anyway.
DMC5180
10-04-2013, 11:15 AM
I'm doing a side by side tear down of a 3.0 Premier, and the D's 2.8 and learning alot.
If you have any requests for pictures / dimensions / etc. Let me know. Send me a PM incase I don't see this thread.
Right now I have them torn down to a long block. My primary interest were the Heads and the upper block. Heads are nearly identical save for the injector ports on the 2.8. I am curious if its possible to have an intake spacer machined that would include injector ports for the D's intake manifold.
Anyway, any requests for pictures?
To answer you spacer question. Yes it can be done as seen in the photo. Sorry I don't have a close up. Also this engine has never been run. it was built up for a "project car" that has yet to came to fruition.
22298
The engine is now in the hands of Rich W. (D-rex)
To answer you spacer question. Yes it can be done as seen in the photo. Sorry I don't have a close up. Also this engine has never been run. it was built up for a "project car" that has yet to came to fruition.
22298
The engine is now in the hands of Rich W. (D-rex)
Very nice engine there.
Also, I appreciate the comments and interest. And yes, as far as taking pictures of everything, I would prefer specifics, if there is some piece you are wondering about. Like Josh said, taking random pictures could turn into a project of its own. Send me a PM if there is some specific part you want to see.
I'm almost at the point of tearing the heads off. I was told that I won't be able to use the 3.0 block (upper crankcase specifically) because 'the liners do not match up with the 2.8's crankshaft.' I haven't learned enough yet to know what that means. But I'm excited for the next part of the tear-down.
Some additional notes:
The water pump and Y pipe of the 2.8 fit onto the 3.0 block.
The water pump Y pipe of the 3.0 is solid and does not have the ports for the various sensors of the 2.8's opened up.
I cannot find any external differences with the upper crankcase of the 3.0.
Bellhousing is the same.
95% sure the flywheel is the same. Still need to verify.
Lots of external bits are the same - engine lift points, plugs for the coolant block drain, caps at the camshafts in the heads... things like that.
Things to do yet:
The valve train in the 3.0 is larger, but look like they can be swapped into the 2.8 heads. I plan on verifying that. The valve covers of the 2.8 would need to be ground to fit the larger valve train.
Why can't the upper crankcase be used in a 2.8 rebuild?
Delorean Industries
10-06-2013, 02:16 PM
The 2.8 crank fits the 3.0 block. The mains are the same. The liner seats are different. if you wanted a 3.0 block with a 2.8 bore you would need to make a liner that is a 3.0 on the outside and a 2.8 on the inside.
So it looks like the 2.8 crankshaft fits into the 3.0 crankcase and can rotate the assembly. The next thing to learn is if the 2.8's camshafts fit in the 3.0's heads and can work in conjunction with the crankshaft. That would give me an odd-firing 3.0 I believe... This is next months project I think.
The 2.8 crank fits the 3.0 block. The mains are the same. The liner seats are different. if you wanted a 3.0 block with a 2.8 bore you would need to make a liner that is a 3.0 on the outside and a 2.8 on the inside.
I think I'm beginning to understand.
That is correct, odd and even firing has everything to do with your crankshaft. The difference is the angle at which the crank pins are in relation to one another.
Spark and fuel management must be able to support the type of firing your engine is using.
deloreanone
10-09-2013, 10:33 PM
Would a 3.0 intake manifold bolt on to 2.8 heads?
opethmike
10-09-2013, 10:34 PM
Would a 3.0 intake manifold bolt on to 2.8 heads?
Nope.
That is correct, odd and even firing has everything to do with your crankshaft. The difference is the angle at which the crank pins are in relation to one another.
Spark and fuel management must be able to support the type of firing your engine is using.
And if the 2.8's cams fit and work in the 3.0's heads, that means I should be able to use the 2.8's distibutor and the rest of the stock spark system.... but one project at a time.
Would a 3.0 intake manifold bolt on to 2.8 heads?
The runners of the 3.0's intake are too long by about 3/4"
deloreanone
10-09-2013, 11:09 PM
The runners of the 3.0's intake are too long by about 3/4"
Could it be modified or shaved down to fit or do the holes simply not line up.
And if the 2.8's cams fit and work in the 3.0's heads, that means I should be able to use the 2.8's distibutor and the rest of the stock spark system.... but one project at a time.
You will need to drill out the hole in the 3.0 drivers side head to allow the 2.8 distributor to be used. I think this has been done before. Just compare the 2.8 heads with the 3.0 ones and take them to the machine shop. I never looked closely enough at mine, happily getting rid of silly distributors and kjet :)
Could it be modified or shaved down to fit or do the holes simply not line up.
Well people have installed 2.8 intakes on 3.0 heads with spacers on each head intake. So, the 3.0 intake manifold head surface would need a significant amount of material removed from it. I cannot comment on the intake holes lining up, hopefully someone can comment on this. For my curiosity I wish I tried swapping the intakes around when I had my 2.8 together.
Picture Time!
You will need to drill out the hole in the 3.0 drivers side head to allow the 2.8 distributor to be used. I think this has been done before. Just compare the 2.8 heads with the 3.0 ones and take them to the machine shop. I never looked closely enough at mine, happily getting rid of silly distributors and kjet :)
The 3.0 heads already have the 'distributor hole'. It may need to be opened up, but that should be trivial.
First the 3.0 head images:
22451
22452
For reference, the 2.8 distributor
22453
Well people have installed 2.8 intakes on 3.0 heads with spacers on each head intake. So, the 3.0 intake manifold head surface would need a significant amount of material removed from it. I cannot comment on the intake holes lining up, hopefully someone can comment on this. For my curiosity I wish I tried swapping the intakes around when I had my 2.8 together.
So the 3.0 intake ports do align with the 2.8 head ports. I would probably have the 3.0 intake customized if I were going that route. Shorten the lengths of the runners, and remove the injector port. After all, the 2.8 heads already have injector ports right? Modifying the heads would be the other option too. See pic for reference of the 3.0 intake on the 2.8.
22454
Thank you for test fitting the intake! The picture is great. However the intake is on backwards :P (i think it can be installed both directions though).
The 2.8 heads would need to be modified to fit electronic injectors. Depending on the amount of material to be shaved off of the 3.0 intake the injector holes may still work... but it would be close. Leaning towards no though. The 2.8 head injector holes can be plugged with a bolt, common in carb conversions.
opethmike
10-11-2013, 12:05 PM
The 2.8 heads would need to be modified to fit electronic injectors. Depending on the amount of material to be shaved off of the 3.0 intake the injector holes may still work... but it would be close. Leaning towards no though. The 2.8 head injector holes can be plugged with a bolt, common in carb conversions.
Several folks have gone EFI on the stock 2.8 heads without modifications to the heads at all, just using the present injector bungs.
Several folks have gone EFI on the stock 2.8 heads without modifications to the heads at all, just using the present injector bungs.
Thanks for clearing up that mis-information! How is this done? A thread in adapter? What kind og injectors are used?
opethmike
10-11-2013, 01:22 PM
Thanks for clearing up that mis-information! How is this done? A thread in adapter? What kind og injectors are used?
For details, I'd have to defer to SpittyBug or Darcom. I believe that regular Bosch style injectors are placed into the bungs directly.
nullset
10-11-2013, 02:21 PM
The 2.8 crank fits the 3.0 block. The mains are the same. The liner seats are different. if you wanted a 3.0 block with a 2.8 bore you would need to make a liner that is a 3.0 on the outside and a 2.8 on the inside.
Would that make an odd-fire 3.0?
Is there any advantage to using the 2.8 crank vs the 3.0 crank?
AdmiralSenn
10-13-2013, 05:30 PM
For details, I'd have to defer to SpittyBug or Darcom. I believe that regular Bosch style injectors are placed into the bungs directly.
Yep DARCOM was the first to do this if I recall right. I can confirm that regular 14mm Bosch injectors placed into the existing bungs will run the car quite adequately. It's certainly not ideal from a performance perspective (some fuel will hit the injector bung walls and puddle) but unless you're looking to extract every single erg of power from the motor it's fine.
You do need to make sure that you put them in far enough that the o-ring seals the bung, and that there is enough pressure on the injectors to keep them in there securely. Spittybug, myself, and a few others are using a fuel rail extrusion that is heavily clamped down via various bracket designs to retain the injectors in place. You do NOT want them flying out from a backfire or happenstance, and unlike the factory injectors there are no clips to hold them in.
The spacers needed are exactly 3/4" high. Fitment on the kjet is done when then engine is assembled so there is room and provisions for everything.
Still experimenting with what could be possible here, but this project has been put on the back burner. I will come back to it in time.
It also appears that there may be a fitment issue with the 3.0's connecting rods on the 2.8's crank.
22607
I was able to work on this again, and I thought I would pass on a few things I learned:
timing & oil pump chains are the same
heads are swappable - with the appropriate new bolts
valve and timing covers are swappable
exhaust manifold bolts are the same
valve trains are swappable (3.0's are hydraulically adjusted) valve covers of 2.8 require slight grind to clear 3.0's valve train.
camshafts are swappable - 3.0 boss needs ground for use in the 2.8's heads (if you intend on running even fire 2.8, with the stock distributor). Optionally, the cam gear can be cut off and machined and fit onto the 3.0's cams.
oil pumps are different & not interchangeable (though they physically fit, they have issues generating proper oil pressure).
automatic flywheels are the same
timing chain guides and shoes are the same
engine lift points are the same
2.8 water pump & pipes are direct fit onto 3.0 & vice versa (though the pumps and pipes themselves are a bit different).
Oh, always use the 2.8 lower crankcase
I have more details about custom work required if you want to use a 3.0 block to replace a ruined 2.8 block. But I'm still testing out those details.
vwdmc16
05-11-2014, 01:13 AM
Interesting cross over info. One error I see. Can not use a odd fire 2.8 distributor on a 3.0 (even fire) cam even if you machined a worm drive to fit on the 3.0 cam end to drive it, The distributor pick up points and cap leads are not spaced evenly. the ignition would miss fire on 3 cylinders unless you installed a different bosch style distributor or modified the pulse coil in the dizzy body.
I was thinking of doing that for my ever delayed 3.0 swap, Machine/weld on the worm drive to the driver side cam , punch out the dizzy hole in the 3.0 head and keep the simple and ready to use 2.8 ignition while using a Bosch LH 2.2 EFi for fuel only. This was all to avoid using Megasquirt or simular with a coil pack set up but it kinda seems hardly worth the trouble especially when I would end up with a older less powerful ignition system.
Interesting cross over info. One error I see. Can not use a odd fire 2.8 distributor on a 3.0 (even fire) cam even if you machined a worm drive to fit on the 3.0 cam end to drive it, The distributor pick up points and cap leads are not spaced evenly. the ignition would miss fire on 3 cylinders unless you installed a different bosch style distributor or modified the pulse coil in the dizzy body.
I was thinking of doing that for my ever delayed 3.0 swap, Machine/weld on the worm drive to the driver side cam , punch out the dizzy hole in the 3.0 head and keep the simple and ready to use 2.8 ignition while using a Bosch LH 2.2 EFi for fuel only. This was all to avoid using Megasquirt or simular with a coil pack set up but it kinda seems hardly worth the trouble especially when I would end up with a older less powerful ignition system.
This info (in more detailed form) will be in a follow-up as soon as I finish my list. However, the short answer is yes you can... however....
Using the even fire cams - with a cam gear machined into the boss or having the cam gear cut off and pressed on, this allows the original distributor shaft to be used. Here is the problem you mentioned - distributor is built for oddfire. The solution is similar to switches from the 70's american v6 stuff. You need an even fire distributor, rotor and reluctor ring - one that fits the 2.8's distributor. Those parts will all come from the distributor of a 1974 Volvo 164. BOSCH Part # 03008 is the reference for the distributor cap. Yes, some work will be needed to create that even fire 2.8 distributor, but yes it is possible.
More info coming soon... just need to verify that the combinations are correct.
NightFlyer
05-11-2014, 05:50 PM
This is all GREAT info - thanks for doing this and sharing :thumbup:
DMCMW Dave
05-11-2014, 11:16 PM
Those parts will all come from the distributor of a 1974 Volvo 164. BOSCH Part # 03008 is the reference for the distributor cap. Yes, some work will be needed to create that even fire 2.8 distributor, but yes it is possible.
.
And when you have made the mods, you'll may up with a non-indexed (i.e. no index boss to orient the cap to the body) cap that can be a bit of an adventure to time.
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