Is my water pump leaking?

[jawn101]

This is a new pump from Hervey, installed in late 2010. Been totally dry and leak free ever since. The system holds pressure just fine and I don't see anything in the valley, though I haven't removed the manifold yet (this week) to check.

Here's a photo of what I am seeing, though. It's a little dried up green goo just below the RH lower corner of the pump, near the timing plate. I touched it and it is not "wet", though the photo sort of makes it look like it is. It's dried up and gummy, but I didn't want to clean it off until I had a better idea what was going on.

Any thoughts?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22294&d=1380853619

Edit: Sorry it's upside down. Man I wish I knew why the forum does that sometimes.

[jackb]

Mine looked worse than that when it was leaking, but yeah, that's about how it looks... Def pull the manifold and inspect.

[jawn101]

Mine looked worse than that when it was leaking, but yeah, that's about how it looks... Def pull the manifold and inspect.

So what is actually leaking? I can't tell. Is it the pump back? A hose? The pump body itself somehow?

[kings1527]

It looks like coolant, Jon. There's a weep hole on the underside of the pump that's designed to let coolant out in the event the seals fail on the water pump. Kind of like an early warning indicator. It'd probably be easiest just to scrap it and put in a DMC unit.

I was running into a similar problem with Hervey's water pump and installed a DMC in my car and I swear the car runs about 10-15 degrees cooler sometimes. You might want to think about ordering some silicone coolant lines 'while you're in there'. After hearing nothing but good things about them, I put them in my car on this go around. They should last forever and they're much more resistant to packing down compared to rubber, which causes leaks until you're able to tighten the clamp again. Usually not a problem unless it's one of the clamps on the backside of the water pump. Then you have to take the manifold off again just to tighten the clamp up!

[jawn101]

It looks like coolant, Jon. There's a weep hole on the underside of the pump that's designed to let coolant out in the event the seals fail on the water pump. Kind of like an early warning indicator. It'd probably be easiest just to scrap it and put in a DMC unit.

I was running into a similar problem with Hervey's water pump and installed a DMC in my car and I swear the car runs about 10-15 degrees cooler sometimes. You might want to think about ordering some silicone coolant lines 'while you're in there'. After hearing nothing but good things about them, I put them in my car on this go around. They should last forever and they're much more resistant to packing down compared to rubber, which causes leaks until you're able to tighten the clamp again. Usually not a problem unless it's one of the clamps on the backside of the water pump. Then you have to take the manifold off again just to tighten the clamp up!

Oh yeah, I know it's coolant. Just wondering what part may have failed. The pump back hoses are new, as is basically everything on the top end of my engine. But I was curious if it's a matter of a bad pump back seal, or a pump back hose, or something much more sinister. Curiosity is all. Plus it will help me decide what to buy :)

The more Hervey parts I remove the happier I'll be.

[Rich]

Oh yeah, I know it's coolant. Just wondering what part may have failed. :)

It's the same as any such water pump in terms of tracing the leaks.

Grab an inspection mirror and a flashlight. Look upward just behind the WP pulley and you'll find a large weep hole in the WP casting. If the coolant is coming from there then the water pump's shaft seal has failed. If not then check out the hose connection and the main gasket. Aside from a pinhole or crack in the WP body that's about all the leaking that can happen in that area.

A failed shaft seal or a leak in the WP body might both be warranty items depending on when you bought the WP. Hose connections and gaskets are something else, nothing a vendor can control.

[Delorean02378]

[QUOTE=kings1527;121921]It looks like coolant, Jon. There's a weep hole on the underside of the pump that's designed to let coolant out in the event the seals fail on the water pump. Kind of like an early warning indicator. It'd probably be easiest just to scrap it and put in a DMC unit.

Don't scrap it! There's a $200 core charge on your Water Pump through DMC. Before you throw anything away, look at the Miscellaneous page on DMC's website and make sure there's not a core on it.

http://store.delorean.com/c-393-miscellaneous.aspx

[DavidProehl]

Jon - Keep me posted on when you plan to do this job, I'm up for lending a hand!

[DMCMW Dave]

A good rule of thumb - never throw ANYTHING away until your project is finished. I'm surprised how often we get requests for parts that got tossed out before the new one got there, and someone the realizes that they toss a part that is either unobtainable, expensive, or just inconvenient to get again.

examples:
--water pump fittings/back/bolts
--metal strips for lower door seals

Another tip:

Before you order things, pull it apart (if this isn't your only car). It could just be a loose hose or a poorly sealed pump back. The gasket on the pump back should be fairly heavy material, if it was like writing paper it will leak.

[jawn101]

A good rule of thumb - never throw ANYTHING away until your project is finished. I'm surprised how often we get requests for parts that got tossed out before the new one got there, and someone the realizes that they toss a part that is either unobtainable, expensive, or just inconvenient to get again.

examples:
--water pump fittings/back/bolts
--metal strips for lower door seals

Another tip:

Before you order things, pull it apart (if this isn't your only car). It could just be a loose hose or a poorly sealed pump back. The gasket on the pump back should be fairly heavy material, if it was like writing paper it will leak.

Great advice as always Dave. I can definitely afford to take my time and pull the pump to inspect it carefully, though if I'm honest I'm sort of bummed at the timing as I have a couple events on the schedule right now (after a summer of pretty much nothing).

I do recall the pump back gasket being that thin paper, sort of like what we use on the W-pipe. But it's been sealed up for a couple years now with no issue, do you think it could have gotten loose over time? I am also 95% sure we used a gasket sealant on it.

[DMCMW Dave]

I do recall the pump back gasket being that thin paper, sort of like what we use on the W-pipe. But it's been sealed up for a couple years now with no issue, do you think it could have gotten loose over time? I am also 95% sure we used a gasket sealant on it.

It's usually thick black gasket material, I've also seen some brown gaskets sort of like the y-pipe. Those are OK too. I've seen one that was bright white and I swear was cut out of the same paper I have in my printer. That one leaked like crazy.

DO NOT be tempted to install the pump back without a gasket, as the clearance is needed, and without a gasket (or with a too-thin gasket) the impeller will drag on the pump back. I found a photo I took of the one we had the issue with. You can see the impeller marks on the back . . .I have no idea what is going on with the impeller, it kind of looks like someone ground on it to make it thinner. Didn't work.

You can also see where the coolant just leached through the paper gasket.

22297

[AugustneverEnds]

The SpecialT supplied gasket is terrible! Much too thin. Your pump is not that old so I'd strongly suspect the gasket is allowing a very tiny weep. Good Luck!

[DeLorean03]

This is a new pump from Hervey, installed in late 2010. Been totally dry and leak free ever since. The system holds pressure just fine and I don't see anything in the valley, though I haven't removed the manifold yet (this week) to check.

Here's a photo of what I am seeing, though. It's a little dried up green goo just below the RH lower corner of the pump, near the timing plate. I touched it and it is not "wet", though the photo sort of makes it look like it is. It's dried up and gummy, but I didn't want to clean it off until I had a better idea what was going on.

Any thoughts?

http://dmctalk.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=22294&d=1380853619



Last year, I had a leak that looked nearly identical to that. Turned out to be the short fat hose on the backside of the waterpump that connects the pump to the Y-coolant pipe. I installed an entire water pump kit from DMCNW, and I haven't looked back! And I'll vouch as well for the lower engine temperature (or coolant temperature technically), mine has definitely run a bit cooler ever since DMCNW water pump installation, and I also went from Herveys pump to DMCNWs.

I felt 9 years for a pump change was pretty good - I am not bad-mouthing John's pump as it wasn't the component to fail here. It was one of those "while I am RIGHT HERE" jobs.

[jawn101]

Last year, I had a leak that looked nearly identical to that. Turned out to be the short fat hose on the backside of the waterpump that connects the pump to the Y-coolant pipe. I installed an entire water pump kit from DMCNW, and I haven't looked back! And I'll vouch as well for the lower engine temperature (or coolant temperature technically), mine has definitely run a bit cooler ever since DMCNW water pump installation, and I also went from Herveys pump to DMCNWs.

I felt 9 years for a pump change was pretty good - I am not bad-mouthing John's pump as it wasn't the component to fail here. It was one of those "while I am RIGHT HERE" jobs.

Interesting that several folks have reported a different pump has had an impact on coolant temps. I wonder why, is it just a matter of the pump circulating more coolant? If so, why? Different impeller or something? My car runs super cool as it is but I'm all for trying anything to lower the temps even further.

I guess I really need to tear into it and see what's what. I should have a little time this weekend, just need to check if I have enough copper washers to seal the fuel lines back up if I remove the mixture unit.

Hopefully it's just a loose hose or a bad gasket.

[jawn101]

PS Jer - your PM box is full.

[DeLorean03]

PS Jer - your PM box is full.

Fixed. Apparently going mod takes your messages available from 150 to 50 O_o....

Oh, and resend me that "list" we talked about. I fricking deleted it on accident >_< ....

[Jack]

What I did to "fix" the thin gasket problem.
I cut a gasket out of thick gasket paper which I coated in gasket maker silicon.
I then coated the pump back and "front" seals with gasket maker silicon.
Let everything dry over night.
Installed the next day.
I'm sure you could find a new gasket from any of the vendors, but I already had the gasket paper and gasket maker silicon.
So all it cost me was time.

[kings1527]

[QUOTE=kings1527;121921]It looks like coolant, Jon. There's a weep hole on the underside of the pump that's designed to let coolant out in the event the seals fail on the water pump. Kind of like an early warning indicator. It'd probably be easiest just to scrap it and put in a DMC unit.

Don't scrap it! There's a $200 core charge on your Water Pump through DMC. Before you throw anything away, look at the Miscellaneous page on DMC's website and make sure there's not a core on it.

http://store.delorean.com/c-393-miscellaneous.aspx

Let me rephrase: You might want to consider replacing your water pump with a DMC unit.

I wasn't advocating removing your water pump, throwing it away, and then ordering a new one after you've thrown the old one out.

[jawn101]

[QUOTE=Delorean02378;121930]

Let me rephrase: You might want to consider replacing your water pump with a DMC unit.

I wasn't advocating removing your water pump, throwing it away, and then ordering a new one after you've thrown the old one out.

LOL, no worries Alex. I knew what you meant :)

[louielouie2000]

DeLoreans really chew through water pumps. I have to wonder what all factors lead to this. My guess is things like 30 year old gummed up radiators, corroding coolant passages, and aged gaskets do them no favors. Not to mention the distance the water pump has to push the coolant is very substantial. Combine this with the uneven way in which owners replace cooling system pieces, and it starts to make sense why water pumps have such a high mortality rate in DeLoreans.

I also really wonder how heat affects the pumps. The PRV was designed for front engined applications- in other words, it was designed to have a constant stream of fresh air hitting it while the engine is running. Instead, in DeLoreans it's stuck in a stagnant engine compartment with a toasty catalytic converter, and a muffler constantly baking it from just a few inches away. I also wonder if all these metal replacement muffler heat shields truly reflect heat, or do they instead radiate it? My point being: does all of this extra engine compartment heat fry water pump bearings?

[jawn101]

DeLoreans really chew through water pumps. I have to wonder what all factors lead to this. My guess is things like 30 year old gummed up radiators, corroding coolant passages, and aged gaskets do them no favors. Not to mention the distance the water pump has to push the coolant is very substantial. Combine this with the uneven way in which owners replace cooling system pieces, and it starts to make sense why water pumps have such a high mortality rate in DeLoreans.

I also really wonder how heat affects the pumps. The PRV was designed for front engined applications- in other words, it was designed to have a constant stream of fresh air hitting it while the engine is running. Instead, in DeLoreans it's stuck in a stagnant engine compartment with a toasty catalytic converter, and a muffler constantly baking it from just a few inches away. I also wonder if all these metal replacement muffler heat shields truly reflect heat, or do they instead radiate it? My point being: does all of this extra engine compartment heat fry water pump bearings?

These are all really good questions. In my case, every inch of the cooling system (except the heater core, header bottle and block itself) is brand new or freshly cleaned/refurbished (in the case of the pipes) in the last 2 years. I definitely agree that all the extra heat in that engine compartment does the motor no favors, but there is still some fresh air coming up from beneath the car - though not much.

[DMCMW Dave]

Interesting that several folks have reported a different pump has had an impact on coolant temps. I wonder why, is it just a matter of the pump circulating more coolant? If so, why? Different impeller or something? .

It has somewhat to do with how close the impeller is to the back of the pump. Something apparently not all vendors check the impeller depth.

I also wonder if you guys are changing the thermostat at the same time as the pump, that is much more likely to cause a temperature difference across the board. I'd think a difference in the pump would only be apparent under load, hot days etc. rather than all the time. Thermostats can have quite a bit of variability one from the other.

[jawn101]

Something apparently not all vendors check the impeller depth.

Well, if I need a pump guess who I'll be calling...


I also wonder if you guys are changing the thermostat at the same time as the pump, that is much more likely to cause a temperature difference across the board. I'd think a difference in the pump would only be apparent under load, hot days etc. rather than all the time. Thermostats can have quite a bit of variability one from the other.

Good point. Maybe this is a noob question, but wouldn't the thermostat just open once and then never close while the car is running? I'd think that a lower temp thermostat might open sooner, but eventually the system would reach equilibrium and be the same temperature it would have been anyway.

[DMCMW Dave]

Maybe this is a noob question, but wouldn't the thermostat just open once and then never close while the car is running? I'd think that a lower temp thermostat might open sooner, but eventually the system would reach equilibrium and be the same temperature it would have been anyway.

The thermostat will open and close based on water temp. In the summer it is probably mostly open, but in the winter it will close at idle. The thermostat does regulate the temperature at the low end, i.e. it will hold the engine at a certain minimum (typically the number that it's rated for, e.g. 195 degrees).

You Californians have probably never seen this, but if the thermostat sticks open in the winter, the heater will start blowing cold at idle (if the car has an old-school mechanical fan) and get warm again as you accelerate. And may actually get cold at high speed due to so much air through the radiator.

[Rich]

DeLoreans really chew through water pumps.

They do? Am still running the original on ours with >60K miles on it.

Seems to run fine. No leaks, no squeaks, plenty of flow as near as I can tell.

[Bitsyncmaster]

They do? Am still running the original on ours with >60K miles on it.

Seems to run fine. No leaks, no squeaks, plenty of flow as near as I can tell.

A water pump will normally not fail in your daily driver. Many have > 200K miles. I've replaced a few but just think it's the luck of the draw (running straight water not counted). That is why I never changed my pump in the D. Only have less than 30 K miles.

[DMCMW Dave]

They do? Am still running the original on ours with >60K miles on it.
Seems to run fine. No leaks, no squeaks, plenty of flow as near as I can tell.

I was wondering the same thing. We change a few "while we're in there" at the owners request, but the number we change due to true "failure in use" is pretty low. One or two a year.

[Hokie]

My pump and leak look almost identical to yours (see picture.) Just a little liquid, and no temperature problems. I sent this pic to DPI Josh and he says the pump needs replaced. I'm having him replace it next week. I'll let everyone know how it all turns out.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/05/hase3ete.jpg


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[jawn101]

My pump and leak look almost identical to yours (see picture.) Just a little liquid, and no temperature problems. I sent this pic to DPI Josh and he says the pump needs replaced. I'm having him replace it next week. I'll let everyone know how it all turns out.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/05/hase3ete.jpg


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Yep, that's a much better pic of basically exactly what I see. I'm going to take off the manifold on Sunday just to look around and make sure there's not something a little simpler to be done, and then go from there.

[louielouie2000]

They do? Am still running the original on ours with >60K miles on it.

Seems to run fine. No leaks, no squeaks, plenty of flow as near as I can tell.

I replaced the pump on my first DeLorean when it had around 30k miles. My second DeLorean had around 70k miles when I bought it, and it had a Volvo replacement pump on it. I had to replace the replacement pump during my ownership... so by 75k miles it was on at least it's third water pump. From my personal experience with DeLoreans, the pumps seem to fail at a very low mileage. I've never known an owner personally who hasn't replaced their pump... and as we all know, most DeLoreans are pretty low mileage vehicles.

[mluder]

I could take the same picture of my car too... It would appear that my Hervey pump is leaking too and it's just over a year old. Granted it could be coming from elsewhere as I haven't inspected thoroughly yet. I'm starting to suspect it's the back plate as I used the supplied brown paper gasket which it sounds like is pretty useless.

Additionally, since I installed it the car has run significantly hotter than the old one did. I put a new Hervey thermostat in at the same time. Sounds like the pump may be deficient in moving coolant through the system. Perhaps I should replace with a DMC unit.

Cheers
Steve

[jawn101]

I don't think my car runs any hotter with the Hervey pump and thermostat - in fact it runs quite cool in my opinion.

That said, I got a light down to the valley today before taking the whole thing apart and can plainly see there is no coolant back there. I took a 120 mile drive yesterday and there was no wet coolant in the problem area afterwards. I cleaned off the green goo and plan to monitor it carefully to see if it reappears.

[Hokie]

[QUOTE=Hokie;122055]My pump and leak look almost identical to yours (see picture.) Just a little liquid, and no temperature problems. I sent this pic to DPI Josh and he says the pump needs replaced. I'm having him replace it next week. I'll let everyone know how it all turns out.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/05/hase3ete.jpg

Just to update, Josh didn't make it to the tech event thus my water pump was not replaced. I've put several hundred more miles on the car with no problem, just a little drip now and then in the same place. Keeping an eye in it.

[SS Spoiler]

FYI I ended up replacing a water pump that was leaking from a loose hose clamp!

[jawn101]

My car is also still staying perfectly cool but does seem to still be potentially weeping there. I haven't had a chance to tear into the valley yet, but I can see that it's very dry back there. I do think that it's pretty likely that the shaft seal is dead and that it was my fault for over-tightening my alternator belt. A certain vendor who sells alternators with smaller than stock pulleys sent me the wrong length V-belt (unbeknownst to me) and I had to really crank it down to keep it from slipping.

I later replaced it with a shorter one but probably not before some damage was done. I'll get in there and see what the story is soon!

[Michael]

[QUOTE=Hokie;122055]My pump and leak look almost identical to yours (see picture.) Just a little liquid, and no temperature problems. I sent this pic to DPI Josh and he says the pump needs replaced. I'm having him replace it next week. I'll let everyone know how it all turns out.http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/05/hase3ete.jpg

Just to update, Josh didn't make it to the tech event thus my water pump was not replaced. I've put several hundred more miles on the car with no problem, just a little drip now and then in the same place. Keeping an eye in it.

That exact picture was what I was looking at around this time last year. Just a few drops of coolant on the floor was traced up to right below the weep hole. I didn't wait for it to get worse, I immediately replaced the water pump and all has been well. The thing about a leaking water pump, fix it ASAP. A: They never get better and B: It's usually a short trip from a few drops to outright failure and overheating your engine.