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btrottie
03-04-2014, 01:57 PM
I'm sure many of you out there in Deloreanland have done engine swaps....

Is it possible to do one for under $5k?? :confused:

or am I in Dreamland?

thanx in advance...

/Blair

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 02:12 PM
I'm sure many of you out there in Deloreanland have done engine swaps....

Is it possible to do one for under $5k?? :confused:

or am I in Dreamland?

thanx in advance...

/Blair

Hi Blair,

Is this your opinion having driven a DeLorean?

There is a ton of information on engine swaps. Have you run a search?

There are several threads happening right now with engine swaps from a turbo VR6 (IIRC) and a vette LS1 to a buick grand national.

Engine swaps are the most common question next to "I want a cheap DeLorean" we get around here. Take a look around and enjoy yourself. You'll find what you're looking for!

On the other hand, our PRV is the 351 of Europe and is an incredibly reliable and highly modifiable engine from carburation to EFI, turbo and supercharging etc. So I'd hardly call it the achillies heel.

Welcome!

Buick (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?8987-Grand-National-Powered-DeLorean-(Buick-3-8L-Turbo-V6-non-intercooled))
Turbo VR6 (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?7884-Turbo-VR6-DeLorean)
Twin Turbo PRV (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?5606-Fantasy-1984-RHD-Twin-Turbo-DeLorean&highlight=corvette)

louielouie2000
03-04-2014, 02:16 PM
The "easiest" & "cheapest" swap is to replace the DeLorean's 2.8 PRV with a later Eagle 3.0 PRV. The benefits of that engine are the fact it's got more power, it's EFI (NOT mechanical K-Jet), later models have distributorless ignition, it's even fire, and it's a relatively straightforward engine swap. Not quite plug & play, but as close to that as possible with the DeLorean.

About 10-15 years ago there were several Chevrolet 4.3 v6 engine swaps done. That motor was a good fit for our cars because it was compact, reliable, parts were sourced easily, it was more powerful, and easy to modify. There was even an adapter plate available to mate the 4.3 to the DeLorean transaxle. This conversion seems to have gone the way of the dodo, though.

Modern engine swaps seem to be all over the place due to the proliferation of aftermarket EFI. Everything from a Honda/Acura V6, to a Nissan V6, a few GM small block V8s, a VW VR6, and even a Toyota Supra inline 6. The sky, your abilities, and your bank account are the limiting factors.

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 02:18 PM
Whole thread on engine swaps! (http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2455-PRV-mods-and-Engine-swaps&highlight=engine+swaps)

btrottie
03-04-2014, 02:24 PM
I inherited a bunch of engine issues from the car I just bought. I've done a lot of research on the PRVs and haven't seen a lot of positive comments.

I was hoping that there was an easy (and well documented swap) I could do for under $5k....

I know nothing is plug-n-play but I'm looking for something straight-forward..

/Blair

opethmike
03-04-2014, 02:25 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 02:26 PM
Carb it.

There. I said it.

louielouie2000
03-04-2014, 02:27 PM
Is this your opinion having driven a DeLorean?

On the other hand, our PRV is the 351 of Europe and is an incredibly reliable and highly modifiable engine from carburation to EFI, turbo and supercharging etc. So I'd hardly call it the achillies heel.

I've owned 2 DeLoreans, and I definitely think the PRV is the DeLorean's Achilles Heel. K-Jet applications are very fussy/unreliable, the top ends of many PRV engines are starting to rot completely through, the PRV is very sensitive & prone to vacuum leaks, the stock DeLorean PRV sounds very nasal & wheezy, and the engine just isn't very responsive or powerful. You have to spend big bucks to get small power from the PRV, even when modified they are pretty gutless on the low end, and once the valley rots out on one, they're done for. I will stop short of calling it a terrible engine, but it's definitely not the ideal powerplant for a low slung sporty 2 seater.

opethmike
03-04-2014, 02:30 PM
The funny thing about K-Jet is that I've dealt with a whole lot of cars with that system, but I've only ever seen it be problematic on DeLoreans. Wonder why that is. *shrugs*

Cory W
03-04-2014, 02:39 PM
OK, I know who you are now. You're on the ODOC FB page. We've talked there a bit.

Let's start here: what are these engine issues, specifically?

The chances of you being able to swap an engine for less than taking the time to actually make what you have work is unlikely, unless your engine problem is "it's missing" Dave up above had what is considered to be the simplest and cheapest advice out there if your issues are fuel related. Even still, there are things you'll be doing to make it work, and you'll be fabricating and spending over $1000 Cdn on it.

Most of ODOC is in the GTA, but there are Ottawa/Montreal owners, with varying degrees of mechanical aptitude. Maybe a shout out to them can get you some second opinions?

btrottie
03-04-2014, 02:48 PM
OK, I know who you are now. You're on the ODOC FB page. We've talked there a bit.

Let's start here: what are these engine issues, specifically?

The chances of you being able to swap an engine for less than taking the time to actually make what you have work is unlikely, unless your engine problem is "it's missing" Dave up above had what is considered to be the simplest and cheapest advice out there if your issues are fuel related. Even still, there are things you'll be doing to make it work, and you'll be fabricating and spending over $1000 Cdn on it.

Most of ODOC is in the GTA, but there are Ottawa/Montreal owners, with varying degrees of mechanical aptitude. Maybe a shout out to them can get you some second opinions?

Yeah, the guy I bought it from spent months on this board troubleshooting the problem and he replaced nearly everything fuel-related and it still runs as crappy as ever..

I'm going to run it by a few local Volvo mechanics to see if anything obvious pops up but I don't want spend a wad of cash trying to figure out what the issue is...I'd rather spend my money on a reasonable engine-swap if there is one out there..

/Blair

Cory W
03-04-2014, 03:03 PM
Yeah, the guy I bought it from spent months on this board troubleshooting the problem and he replaced nearly everything fuel-related and it still runs as crappy as ever..

Based on the accounts from the couple of people I've spoken with who went to talk with him and look at the car, he was not exactly mechanically inclined. It's nice there's a lot of new parts, but unless he could get them all to dance together, there will be trouble.

If you do wind up pulling it and replacing, let's talk about buying your old engine and components.


I'm going to run it by a few local Volvo mechanics to see if anything obvious pops up but I don't want spend a wad of cash trying to figure out what the issue is...I'd rather spend my money on a reasonable engine-swap if there is one out there..

Your proximity to Quebec (and people who may be aware and familiar with) Peugeot and Renault cars can't hurt. Also see VW, Mercedes, and Porsche dealers...KJet was common on them for a while here.

TheSmokingMan
03-04-2014, 03:07 PM
Sorry, but I have to disagree with the premise of the thread. The PRV is actually one of the more reliable parts of the car as long as it gets regular service, doesn't overheat, or is left to sit. I don't know the history of your car, but I would wager that at some point your car has had one or more of those things happen to it. You need to have someone who knows DeLorean PRV's diagnose it before you rush out to do an engine swap out of desperation.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 03:33 PM
Sorry, but I have to disagree with the premise of the thread. The PRV is actually one of the more reliable parts of the car as long as it gets regular service, doesn't overheat, or is left to sit. I don't know the history of your car, but I would wager that at some point your car has had one or more of those things happen to it. You need to have someone who knows DeLorean PRV's diagnose it before you rush out to do an engine swap out of desperation.

Every Volvo mechanic I've talked to cringes at the mention of the PRV engine. If you Google the InterWeb you won't find any positive reviews on it so I think the consensus is that it's a crappy under-powered engine that ended up in a nice car...

/Blair

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 03:34 PM
Blair,

If your budget is $5,000, why not trailer it down to Dave at DMC Midwest and be done with it?

It would be a day of driving each way but you'd have the right people look at it for the first and last time in a very long time.

Sometimes where there is a problem I can't solve I go to Toby and John at Dmc northwest and be done with it.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 03:40 PM
Blair,

If your budget is $5,000, why not trailer it down to Dave at DMC Midwest and be done with it?

It would be a day of driving each way but you'd have the right people look at it for the first and last time in a very long time.

Sometimes where there is a problem I can't solve I go to Toby and John at Dmc northwest and be done with it.

I just might do that....now if they can "guarantee" to fix the problem I'd be set... :driving1:

/Blair

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 03:42 PM
Every Volvo mechanic I've talked to cringes at the mention of the PRV engine. If you Google the InterWeb you won't find any positive reviews on it so I think the consensus is that it's a crappy under-powered engine that ended up in a nice car...

/Blair

The interweb is full of misinformation Blair. A lot of mainstream media and uniformed people propagate this information daily. I was talking to a guy last week that asked if I still had the terrible original engine. He asked because Rick Harrison from pawn stars made the comment on TV. Rick knows nothing about Deloreans. Even video bob was correcting him over and over again. Want the truth about PRVs? Call a franchise and talk to a pro.

You have to remember our PRV was choked for emissions along with all the other early 80's cars. Is it a powerful engine? Not even close, but that doesn't make it crap. I've worked on 4 Deloreans now, 3 of which sat for a long time. They all run fine now. There were some headaches yes, but I'm a stickler for originality!

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 03:46 PM
I just might do that....now if they can "guarantee" to fix the problem I'd be set... :driving1:

/Blair

I'm just guessing but if the system is now made up entirely of new components, there is something holding it back that should be relatively straightforward to fix like timing, misrouted k-jet lines, a clog, who knows, but if the parts are all brand new the problem must be in adjustment or improper installation.

Sometimes something simple can cause real headaches.

Hopefully there isn't internal engine issues.

TheSmokingMan
03-04-2014, 03:54 PM
Every Volvo mechanic I've talked to cringes at the mention of the PRV engine. If you Google the InterWeb you won't find any positive reviews on it so I think the consensus is that it's a crappy under-powered engine that ended up in a nice car...

/Blair

The DeLorean variant is different than the PRV's most volvo mechanics are familiar with, so it's not surprising what they are saying about it. You're probably not going to get much help from them, unless what you're looking for is someone to validate what you think you already know about the PRV.

louielouie2000
03-04-2014, 03:54 PM
The funny thing about K-Jet is that I've dealt with a whole lot of cars with that system, but I've only ever seen it be problematic on DeLoreans. Wonder why that is. *shrugs*

I will never forget- several years back I was out walking & stopped in to say hello to a neighbor of mine who was working on his late 70s/early 80s vintage Porsche in his driveway. I asked what he was doing, and it turns out he was ripping out K-Jet in favor of carbs. He said it's something many folks do who own that vintage of Porsches. Apparently K-Jet isn't just fussy in DeLoreans.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with the premise of the thread. The PRV is actually one of the more reliable parts of the car as long as it gets regular service, doesn't overheat, or is left to sit. I don't know the history of your car, but I would wager that at some point your car has had one or more of those things happen to it. You need to have someone who knows DeLorean PRV's diagnose it before you rush out to do an engine swap out of desperation.

This is exactly why it's a problematic engine for many DeLorean owners. Most DeLoreans have sat for extended periods, weren't serviced regularly or correctly, and have experienced some sort of overheating issues due to extensive coolant routing, inherent cooling system flaws (bubbles in the system, failing otterstat, failing coolant bottles, faulty fan modules, etc), & poor maintenance. If properly tended to the PRV certainly can last several hundred thousand miles. But the same could be said of any engine, really.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 03:56 PM
I'm going to run it by a few local guys that hopefully can figure it out..if they can't maybe it will be time for a road trip to Ohio...

/Blair

opethmike
03-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Louie, you'll notice that I said in my experience.

krs09
03-04-2014, 04:11 PM
How about a video of your problem so we can have a listen?

btrottie
03-04-2014, 04:20 PM
Here's a short video clip with a quick walk-around of the car...

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/10gifqd/8)

/Blair

mluder
03-04-2014, 04:22 PM
Carb it.

There. I said it.

How dare you, Sir. :nono:

Cheers
Steven

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 04:26 PM
How dare you, Sir. :nono:

Cheers
Steven


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhrZxSoLmgA

krs09
03-04-2014, 04:29 PM
Here's a short video clip with a quick walk-around of the car...

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/10gifqd/8)

/Blair

What have you replaced so far? What have you checked?

btrottie
03-04-2014, 04:30 PM
What have you replaced so far? What have you checked?

Fuel Pump (Tank Cleaned as well)
Fuel Filter
Fuel Accumulator
New plugs and wires.
Fuel Regulator
Fuel Distributor
water pump

/Blair

mluder
03-04-2014, 04:33 PM
Here's a short video clip with a quick walk-around of the car...

View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/10gifqd/8)

/Blair

Wow... Sounds like an exhaust leak at minimum. That can lead to all sorts of problems with the O2 sensor and mixture control. Also seems to have a misfire. Too much fuel building up in the cylinders could be from faulty or dirty injectors. Too much fuel can also lead to fouling the O2 sensor with the same effects as previously mentioned. Have you tried basics like a tube up - replacing the distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs, wires, ignition coil?

Cheers
Steven

NightFlyer
03-04-2014, 04:57 PM
When is the last time that the valves were adjusted?

Also, did you do an injector test to gauge if the flow rate and pattern looks OK?

How about pulling the plugs to see what they could tell you about what's going on? You also might to want to replace whatever plugs are currently in it for the correct Bosch HR6D - either silver (S) or copper (C) electrode. While the plugs are out, it also wouldn't hurt to do a compression check.

Check the timing at all?

Is the frequency valve buzzing?

Merely throwing new parts at a problem won't necessarily rectify the problem - you must first identify what/where the problem is, and you do that by performing relatively basic diagnostic procedures/tests.

That fact that it starts, runs, and stays running, means that you're pretty close to getting things right. It would be foolish and short sighted to just give up on the PRV now IMHO.

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 05:14 PM
Blair -

that sounds exactly like your spark plug leads are incorrect. If, for example lead 5 and 6 are backwards it will fart and choke like that. So i'd also double check the leads right from the distributor to the plugs.

Also - like NightFlyer said - INJECTORS! one bad injector can ruin your picnic.

EDIT - unbolt the air mixture unit so it can be moved enough to see the top of the distributor - you do not need to disconnect fuel lines. This is done with an allan key on top of the intake runners and the 11mm bolts at the w-pipe. You'll need to pop off the throttle linkage too.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 06:35 PM
The distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs, wires, ignition coil have been replaced. Timing has been double-checked and the Spark plug wiring has been triple-checked.

Only thing that hasn't been replaced are the injectors....

/Blair

louielouie2000
03-04-2014, 06:44 PM
That could be a really horrific vacuum leak. A hose could have come undone somewhere when you were replacing all of those components.

AussieDMC
03-04-2014, 06:45 PM
I always find it quite bemusing that people would rather go to the huge effort and expense of changing engines rather than getting the original engine running right. First of all you would need to source and buy the new engine ($$), decide what to do with the gearbox (try to use the original or use another one?), get the car certified and road legal, also there would be heaps of wiring, mods etc that would be needed. The car will now be worth less than before and will be harder to sell one day. DeLorean shops probably won't want to touch it either. So my point is surely changing the motor is a last resort? I'm a bit biased as I think the PRV engine is just about the best part of the car. It just needs some love and care like most old engines. As one of the previous blokes said start with the basics and do a full 30,000 mile tune up as per the manual and don't just throw bits at it. Then once it's running right and you still don't like it, by all means change it. Modern engines though also have their fair share of problems too.

AugustneverEnds
03-04-2014, 07:09 PM
I always find it quite bemusing that people would rather go to the huge effort and expense of changing engines rather than getting the original engine running right. First of all you would need to source and buy the new engine ($$), decide what to do with the gearbox (try to use the original or use another one?), get the car certified and road legal, also there would be heaps of wiring, mods etc that would be needed. The car will now be worth less than before and will be harder to sell one day. DeLorean shops probably won't want to touch it either. So my point is surely changing the motor is a last resort? I'm a bit biased as I think the PRV engine is just about the best part of the car. It just needs some love and care like most old engines. As one of the previous blokes said start with the basics and do a full 30,000 mile tune up as per the manual and don't just throw bits at it. Then once it's running right and you still don't like it, by all means change it. Modern engines though also have their fair share of problems too.

+1

Silverbullet
03-04-2014, 07:10 PM
If you are stuck.... You really need to let someone who knows the car look at it.... It will cost less, and be worth more in the long run... You don't throw the baby out with the bath water, as they used to say....

Craig

mluder
03-04-2014, 07:27 PM
I always find it quite bemusing that people would rather go to the huge effort and expense of changing engines rather than getting the original engine running right. First of all you would need to source and buy the new engine ($$), decide what to do with the gearbox (try to use the original or use another one?), get the car certified and road legal, also there would be heaps of wiring, mods etc that would be needed. The car will now be worth less than before and will be harder to sell one day. DeLorean shops probably won't want to touch it either. So my point is surely changing the motor is a last resort? I'm a bit biased as I think the PRV engine is just about the best part of the car. It just needs some love and care like most old engines. As one of the previous blokes said start with the basics and do a full 30,000 mile tune up as per the manual and don't just throw bits at it. Then once it's running right and you still don't like it, by all means change it. Modern engines though also have their fair share of problems too.


+1

+2

Cheers
Steven

btrottie
03-04-2014, 07:36 PM
+2

Cheers
Steven

+3

Beachdrifter
03-04-2014, 07:36 PM
If you want the reliability of a modern engine, just get an EFI conversion. That's what I eventually plan to do with mine in the future. If you want the turn on the key and go , without all the delays of the mechanical feedback and BS, and warm-up, then that will work out fine for less than $5k. If you want performance, then EFI and Turbo it too.

Of course this is assuming you have an engine that hasn't been sitting for 10 yrs and in such bad shape that it would make sense to replace it in the first place.

If you want something more, then I would go for an engine swap at that point.

The Kjet can be a fussy system; it is hit or miss depending on how often you drive your car and to what degree you have gone through and replaced everything / rebuilt the system. If you have moisture or other contaminants it screws it up.

All Delorean needed was a little more time and the PRV would have been a different beast; if he had wanted to keep going with the PRV. I've heard even some good performance cars of that era had PRVs in them, so it's an engine with potential.

-Randy

btrottie
03-04-2014, 08:00 PM
If you want the reliability of a modern engine, just get an EFI conversion. That's what I eventually plan to do with mine in the future. If you want the turn on the key and go , without all the delays of the mechanical feedback and BS, and warm-up, then that will work out fine for less than $5k. If you want performance, then EFI and Turbo it too.

Of course this is assuming you have an engine that hasn't been sitting for 10 yrs and in such bad shape that it would make sense to replace it in the first place.

If you want something more, then I would go for an engine swap at that point.

The Kjet can be a fussy system; it is hit or miss depending on how often you drive your car and to what degree you have gone through and replaced everything / rebuilt the system. If you have moisture or other contaminants it screws it up.

All Delorean needed was a little more time and the PRV would have been a different beast; if he had wanted to keep going with the PRV. I've heard even some good performance cars of that era had PRVs in them, so it's an engine with potential.

-Randy


I'm surprised that no one has come out with a swap "kit" that would include all the pieces and parts to make this work using a modern readily available engine...

/Blair

Dangermouse
03-04-2014, 08:04 PM
The distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs, wires, ignition coil have been replaced. Timing has been double-checked and the Spark plug wiring has been triple-checked.

Only thing that hasn't been replaced are the injectors....

/Blair

Check that distributor again as it is easy to put it on 180 degrees out. It's hard to check because of where it is, but there should be a little tab inside that lines up. But it will go on the other way around and effectively screw you wire destinations up.

Dangermouse
03-04-2014, 08:09 PM
Every Volvo mechanic I've talked to cringes at the mention of the PRV engine. If you Google the InterWeb you won't find any positive reviews on it so I think the consensus is that it's a crappy under-powered engine that ended up in a nice car...

/Blair

I suspect that most of them would be stumped by anything that they can't connect a laptop to.

I'm sure you would get a similar response if you asked a BMW dealer mechanic to work on a 2002tii

Try finding an old school Indy Volvo mechanic that may be able to help.

Or just work with us on this forum; some of the most knowledgeable PRV mechanics in the world. :)

btrottie
03-04-2014, 08:20 PM
I suspect that most of them would be stumped by anything that they can't connect a laptop to.

I'm sure you would get a similar response if you asked a BMW dealer mechanic to work on a 2002tii

Try finding an old school Indy Volvo mechanic that may be able to help.

Or just work with us on this forum; some of the most knowledgeable PRV mechanics in the world. :)

Yeah, the Volvo mechanics I spoke to are Indy/ex-dealership boys with 20-30 years of experience...I would never bring this car into a Volvo dealership!

/Blair

opethmike
03-04-2014, 08:46 PM
Check that distributor again as it is easy to put it on 180 degrees out. It's hard to check because of where it is, but there should be a little tab inside that lines up. But it will go on the other way around and effectively screw you wire destinations up.

If it was 180 out, the car wouldn't even start.

thirdmanj
03-04-2014, 09:21 PM
There was nothing wrong with Achilles' heal. That's Fox News propaganda. So that just leaves the PRV the bad-ass Brad Pitt of engines. So what's your point?

btrottie
03-04-2014, 09:34 PM
Peugeot and Renault made some of the crappiest cars out there. I know because I've owned them.. The fact that they collaborated to make the PRV doesn't exactly inspire confidence... That's my 'point'...

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

thirdmanj
03-04-2014, 09:39 PM
Peugeot and Renault made some of the crappiest cars out there. I know because I've owned them.. The fact that they collaborated to make the PRV doesn't exactly inspire confidence... That's my 'point'...

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Your points about as sharp as Philip Seymour Hoffman's last needle.

sdg3205
03-04-2014, 09:41 PM
The engine is more volvo than anything else.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 09:41 PM
In response to Thirdmanj..

Thanx for your 'contribution' to this thread. it's much appreciated..

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

thirdmanj
03-04-2014, 09:44 PM
Thanx for your 'contribution' to this thread it's much appreciated..


Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Careful son, you might overdose on Vitamin-DMC.

Sent from my bitch-ass iPhone using Lucas Electronics

Nicholas R
03-04-2014, 09:52 PM
Peugeot and Renault made some of the crappiest cars out there. I know because I've owned them.. The fact that they collaborated to make the PRV doesn't exactly inspire confidence... That's my 'point'...

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
That's not the best argument. Every car maker has terrible cars. Even Delorean at times... :wink:



I'm surprised that no one has come out with a swap "kit" that would include all the pieces and parts to make this work using a modern readily available engine...

/Blair
That's because Delorean numbers are so low. It's not like buying a Chevy 350 kit for the Fiero where almost 400,000 were made. Heck the percentage of engine swapped deloreans is probably similar to the percentage of engine swapped fieros. Then again there are about 1/40th the number of deloreans.

Plus no one can decide on which "modern" engine to use. Almost every Delorean engine swap is different. :biggrin:

nullset
03-04-2014, 10:22 PM
Most engine swap projects end up becoming a "selling my project car" post or a "hey I found this abandoned delorean in a barn" post, depending on how much time passes.

It is doable, but if your budget is that low and you're not mechanically inclined, you're setting yourself up to fail.

btrottie
03-04-2014, 10:25 PM
Most engine swap projects end up becoming a "selling my project car" post or a "hey I found this abandoned delorean in a barn" post, depending on how much time passes.

It is doable, but if your budget is that low and you're not mechanically inclined, you're setting yourself up to fail.

Looks like an engine swap is going to be a lot more expensive than a trip to DMCNW... ;-)

/Blair

Dangermouse
03-04-2014, 10:48 PM
If it was 180 out, the car wouldn't even start.

No, it starts alright, just runs like crap. At least it did when I screwed it up.

:(

krs09
03-04-2014, 11:08 PM
Pull the 3 injectors on the right side of the engine (easiest to get to), put in jars, jumper the rpm relay, turn the key and make sure they don't drip, tap the intake plate just a little to check spray and eveness. It does sound like a large vac leak though (like by the manifold or w-pipe). Vac lines from the VOD ok?

AugustneverEnds
03-04-2014, 11:21 PM
That's not the best argument. Every car maker has terrible cars. Even Delorean at times... :wink:
:

+1

IMHO and experience the PRV is far less of a pain in the ass to live with than its pop culture and online reputation can lead people to believe. Same applies to K-Jet. And even though PRVs are not performance monsters, they are durable and reliable and relatively cheap to maintain. So you can, you know, DRIVE the D whenever you like. :biggrin:

Of course this is coming from the guy who used to own a '89 BMW 750iL (the Mir space station on wheels, found more ways to strand me than previously known to exist :swear1: See EVERY car maker does make crap sometimes!

btrottie
03-04-2014, 11:29 PM
Pull the 3 injectors on the right side of the engine (easiest to get to), put in jars, jumper the rpm relay, turn the key and make sure they don't drip, tap the intake plate just a little to check spray and eveness. It does sound like a large vac leak though (like by the manifold or w-pipe). Vac lines from the VOD ok?

You lost me after "Pull the 3 injectors" :biggrin: I'll pass this stuff on to the mechanic.....

thanx for the advice!

/Blair

dustybarn
03-05-2014, 12:01 AM
Engine swaps are not trivial. Anybody contemplating one should think long and hard about whether it's the right thing to do.

IMHO there is nothing inherently wrong with the PRV. It is a bit complex and fiddly, but it was designed to serve 3 different OEMs, in both fwd and rwd applications. It did sterling service in the Alpine A310/610/GTA and in the Venturi.

With all due respect to Volvo mechanics, I think they sometimes have a warped opinion of what constitutes automotive reliability. Their beloved redblocks are truly bombproof beyond all reasonable expectations (I only say this because I had a 740 Turbo years ago and that darn thing was an absolute anvil).

Granted, K-Jet as implemented on the D appears to have more than the usual share of problems, but the typical trouble spots are well-known and are fixable. I would implore you to pick the brains of the knowledgeable folks in this community before doing anything too drastic.

NightFlyer
03-05-2014, 01:17 AM
You lost me after "Pull the 3 injectors" :biggrin: I'll pass this stuff on to the mechanic.....

thanx for the advice!

/Blair

Hold the phone - this guy was all amp'd up to do a full-on engine swap, and he can't even handle doing something as simple and basic as a fuel injector test on his own - anyone else find this to be a little ironic?

sdg3205
03-05-2014, 01:21 AM
Hold the phone - this guy was all amp'd up to do a full-on engine swap, and he can't even handle doing something as simple and basic as a fuel injector test on his own - anyone else find this to be a little ironic?

Be nice! He's obviously frustrated!

Blair - do all 6 injectors at once so you don't dump raw fuel into the other cylinders. Search "corona" and you'll read how to do the injector spray test. It's very easy. The hardest part is getting injector 4 out IIRC.

NightFlyer
03-05-2014, 01:24 AM
There was nothing wrong with Achilles' heal. That's MSNBC propaganda. So that just leaves the PRV the bad-ass Brad Pitt of engines. So what's your point?

Fixed it for you :biggrin:

From Peter Weller to Sigourney Weaver, eh?

thirdmanj
03-05-2014, 05:17 AM
Fixed it for you :biggrin:

From Peter Weller to Sigourney Weaver, eh?

Ooooh ooooh, there's that trademark wit again.

Dangermouse
03-05-2014, 08:27 AM
Maybe as a point of reference to the OP, out of the 6500 cars still thought to be in existence (a number often quoted but never proved), I only know of about 20 that have had non-PRV (non-electric) engine swaps, and not all of those are successfully in operation.

Exolis
03-05-2014, 08:47 AM
So I just found out about the VQ35 Swap yesterday, this makes me very excited! Granted I want to keep my PRV and try finding the Intake Manifold for EFI (forgot the name of it 307 or something?). But the fact someone put in a VQ35 has got me thinking that putting in a QR25DER, VQ35-k3, maybe even a MR16DDT, hell maybe even gut a Leaf to swap parts on to it! Maybe even the 2.9L Cummins Diesel.

Ohhh the possibilities, but I don't foresee my self doing that anytime soon...

NightFlyer
03-05-2014, 01:26 PM
Maybe as a point of reference to the OP, out of the 6500 cars still thought to be in existence (a number often quoted but never proved), I only know of about 20 that have had non-PRV (non-electric) engine swaps, and not all of those are successfully in operation.

Anyone know if any of the 4.6L Cadillac Northstar swapped DeLoreans are still running?

Rich W
03-05-2014, 01:46 PM
About 10-15 years ago there were several Chevrolet 4.3 v6 engine swaps done. That motor was a good fit for our cars because it was compact, reliable, parts were sourced easily, it was more powerful, and easy to modify. There was even an adapter plate available to mate the 4.3 to the DeLorean transaxle. This conversion seems to have gone the way of the dodo, though.

Danny at DMC CA has done a few 4.3L V6 swaps in the past few years and there was talk of making a "parts kit" available to sell back in 2012.

Of course, this was when Don Steger was still at DMC CA, so the 4.3L V6 parts kit idea may have gone the way of the dodo now.

DMCMW Dave
03-05-2014, 02:33 PM
Anyone know if any of the 4.6L Cadillac Northstar swapped DeLoreans are still running?

I've heard that the only one really done (ACE) is languishing in a garage somewhere, and neither Cadillac people nor DMC people will touch it. No more info than that.

Chronic issue with swaps - in this case the Cadillac people are scared of the DeLorean part, and the DeLorean people don't know anything about Cadillac engines. So you get a car that only the builder will work on, and he's long gone.

Nicholas R
03-05-2014, 02:48 PM
I've heard that the only one really done (ACE) is languishing in a garage somewhere, and neither Cadillac people nor DMC people will touch it. No more info than that.

Chronic issue with swaps - in this case the Cadillac people are scared of the DeLorean part, and the DeLorean people don't know anything about Cadillac engines. So you get a car that only the builder will work on, and he's long gone.

Interesting; I never really considered that that could be an issue.

Luckily, the LS crowd is nuts and puts LS engines in everything from mustangs, to priuses, to dune buggies. I've had several people ask if they could tune my car in their shop, just as publicity for their shop! I guess if you're going to do an engine swap use an engine with a welcoming fanbase.

With regard to the OP, in my honest opinion, with all due respect, if you aren't capable of diagnosing and servicing a PRV engine, there is absolutely no way you are going to be capable of swapping an engine. Having serviced countless PRV's as well as having done an engine swap, I can promise you that if you're not qualified to do the first, you're certainly not qualified to do the second. Best of luck with whatever you choose.

Bitsyncmaster
03-05-2014, 03:25 PM
So what have the guys that have done it spent on cost (estimate hours if you did the work yourself).

DMCMW Dave
03-05-2014, 03:51 PM
Interesting; I never really considered that that could be an issue.

It isn't, until the guy doing the conversion sells the car. You will probably say that you'll never sell it, but in a few years wives/houses/kids/career changes happen and people move on. Sometimes. Never is a long time.

Yours by all accounts is also the exceptional conversion, i.e. done by an engineer who actually bothered to research and document his work.

More often than not someone starts the project, maybe even gets the car running and driving, but never get it quite sorted out, A/C working, no overheating, agreeable shifter and clutch, overall reliability etc. As you probably know that can take as much work as doing the conversion itself.

Then they lose interested and it gets sold off cheap or goes into a barn for a decade.

DeLorean03
03-05-2014, 04:43 PM
So what have the guys that have done it spent on cost (estimate hours if you did the work yourself).

Eddie informed me on the VR6 he has easily put in 1000 hours into everything from part research to turning the key and hearing the engine run.

There's more coming with brake work and minor frame work, but as this is for engine conversions: 1000 hours.

Bitsyncmaster
03-05-2014, 04:48 PM
Eddie informed me on the VR6 he has easily put in 1000 hours into everything from part research to turning the key and hearing the engine run.

There's more coming with brake work and minor frame work, but as this is for engine conversions: 1000 hours.

I'm not surprised at those hour estimates. So unless your the one doing all the work (and love to do that stuff) that $5000 wanted price is way to low.

Nicholas R
03-05-2014, 05:53 PM
Eddie informed me on the VR6 he has easily put in 1000 hours into everything from part research to turning the key and hearing the engine run.

There's more coming with brake work and minor frame work, but as this is for engine conversions: 1000 hours.

I can definitely believe that, and that is with the benefit of having already done an engine swap in a DeLorean.

I ran the numbers a while back and came up with about 1500 hrs. just for myself including research, manufacturing, and installation. Lots of long days and nights between the garage and the machine shop. And that doesn't even really include the time thinking about the project, trying to work things out throughout the day while doing other stuff.

That 1500 hrs. does include some scope creep though since there were quite a few "while I'm in their" jobs. Since the project included a body frame separation there were some things that were just too accessible to not fix or replace. (Every piece of rubber hose on the car was replaced, trailing arm bolts, a few frame repairs, etc.). In addition I also did a transmission swap which certainly took some of that time; research, rebuilding, frame modifications, and installation.

All of that being said, I also had probably between 500 and 750 hours of help from other people on the project. All and all, I'd say 2000 man-hours easily; probably more.

David T
03-05-2014, 05:57 PM
I also find it ironic that someone would contemplate as huge a project as an engine swap when they can't seem to get the PRV going well. It may seem counter-intuitive but no matter WHAT you do to the PRV it will be vastly faster and cheaper then trying to engineer something else in place of it. Maybe you are approaching it the wrong way. Maybe what you REALLY want is to swap the "broken" PRV with a good running one? In any case even that is not the way to go since it may not take all that much to get your existing PRV to run well. Start with the basics. Does it have good oil pressure and can it pass a compression test? Is there any knocking? If it is basically healthy then you have a problem with one of the systems, most likely fuel and/or ignition. Properly tuned and maintained the PRV is one of the most reliable things in the car (if you don't overheat it!).

louielouie2000
03-05-2014, 07:34 PM
Eddie informed me on the VR6 he has easily put in 1000 hours into everything from part research to turning the key and hearing the engine run.

There's more coming with brake work and minor frame work, but as this is for engine conversions: 1000 hours.

So at the average hourly shop rate of $100/hour... :dead:

DMCMW Dave
03-05-2014, 07:51 PM
So at the average hourly shop rate of $100/hour... :dead:

But think of all the money you'll save not fixing the K-Jet. . . . .

Nicholas R
03-05-2014, 08:49 PM
So at the average hourly shop rate of $100/hour... :dead:

I saved a bunch of money by only billing myself $50 hour :). It was a nice discount.

Dangermouse
03-05-2014, 09:17 PM
Friends and Family Discount ?

DeLorean03
03-05-2014, 09:28 PM
So at the average hourly shop rate of $100/hour... :dead:

With Eddie, $85/hour.

Our deal was a pre-shop agreement - for "fixed amount" price, you get the turbo VR6 installed. My price will not be what anyone else pays because I was willing to let my car be the "guinea pig", and Eddie is using it for some thorough networking/exposure. I will not reveal how much it was, but I'll say this - cheaper than anything any other vendor currently has on the market.


But think of all the money you'll save not fixing the K-Jet. . . . .

I'll say this - if my stress levels were pushups, I'd have to dig a hole to go any lower to the ground when I get my car back in late April/early May.

Knowing that I don't have to the key and let the pump prime, swap blue and grey plugs, feather-press/pump the gas, wait 10 seconds to 5 minutes for the idle hunting to stop, wait 30 seconds to 5 minutes to leave my driveway without some random miss going down the road, rub some magic 8-ball, or any other magical thinking is like a whole other world, and I haven't even experienced it yet. No more getting out fuel gauges and measuring pressures - just get in the car and go like the rest of the world.

Most here know I had chronic KJet issues for years, and it was VERY weird knowing my car was an "often driver" - 3 to 4 days per week. Never understood it, and I wish my experience with KJet could have been more pleasant. After what I went through, I just could never EVER promote KJet again. For me, having KJet on a DeLorean makes about as much sense to me as a snake trying to make a sandwich.

The EFI guys here on the forums have been pretty dang quiet with starting/running issues (my perception), that alone says at the minimum an EFI swap is considerable. Most here quote an EFI in the low 2's or having someone do it for mid 3's, and the KJetronic components alone add up to roughly $1700. That's not TOO much more to have something - IMHO - much more reliable and definitely more modern.

Not a personal attack on the vendors, Dave - just stating why I "paid more" to fix a "cheap problem." No animosity intended towards you, sir.

DMCMW Dave
03-05-2014, 09:43 PM
Not a personal attack on the vendors, Dave - just stating why I "paid more" to fix a "cheap problem." No animosity intended towards you, sir.

None taken. I was just glad to see some rational discussion in response to the periodic discussions on the board here about doing exotic engine swaps to save money over just fixing what you have. As expensive as it seems to fix the OEM stuff, to do it any cheaper you either have to have:

--A talented friend willing to work cheap;
or
--A talented shop willing to write off 90% of the effort in the name of development work towards future fame and fortune;
or
--Lots of talent yourself combined with plenty of free time.

In all of the engine swap threads I've seen, the engine itself is always the cheapest component of the swap. It's the detailed engineering that gets you.

I typically don't get involved in these discussion, but I do find the "my car won't start so I'll just toss a Chevy/Buick/Nissan/Mazda/Jeep etc. engine in my DeLorean and all will be well" threads to be massively understated and potentially misleading to the casual reader. You and Nick are really showing what it takes to get it done, and I do truly admire and respect this sort of effort. There are very few engine-swapped DeLoreans that are really done right.

DeLorean03
03-05-2014, 09:58 PM
None taken. I was just glad to see some rational discussion in response to the periodic discussions on the board here about doing exotic engine swaps to save money over just fixing what you have. As expensive as it seems to fix the OEM stuff, to do it any cheaper you either have to have:

--A talented friend willing to work cheap;
or
--A talented shop willing to write off 90% of the effort in the name of development work towards future fame and fortune;
or
--Lots of talent yourself combined with plenty of free time.

In all of the engine swap threads I've seen, the engine itself is always the cheapest component of the swap. It's the detailed engineering that gets you.

I typically don't get involved in these discussion, but I do find the "my car won't start so I'll just toss a Chevy/Buick/Nissan/Mazda/Jeep etc. engine in my DeLorean and all will be well" threads to be massively understated and potentially misleading to the casual reader. You and Nick are really showing what it takes to get it done, and I do truly admire and respect this sort of effort. There are very few engine-swapped DeLoreans that are really done right.

100% agree with you. The engine was $1700, but the time investment is the massive killer.

A huge reason I agreed to let Eddie do this job was the confidence and the relentless assurance he gave me that he knows what he is doing. Seeing the 2JZ car from years ago, he really didn't have to assure me he knew what he was doing; it was simply the fact that he was so detailed and methodical into what he was doing before he even got his hands on my car - I knew all would be well.

The details he provides are 2nd to none. It is absolutely constant updates, photos, videos, R&D decisions, constant discussion about which way we should go next - it has been a truly involved effort, and I am just the guy writing the checks. I have some knowledge on all of this, but I am not there for the "hands on" portion. Without a doubt, WAY beyond my level of skillsets.

It didn't come cheap, but rarely are cheap things worth it.

I appreciate your compliments, Dave. Coming from you, they hold a lot of water, and I know you don't give those out very often.

Now if you were just nicer on FB ): ...

Henrik
03-05-2014, 11:22 PM
....constant updates, photos, videos, R&D decisions, constant discussion about which way we should go next - it has been a truly involved effort....

That alone is worth its weight in gold. I've had a few PM exchanges with Eddie and I like him already.

Henrik
03-05-2014, 11:57 PM
Yes, this is a 4 valve DOHC, twin-turbo application but for anyone thinking that the PRV is somehow incapable of putting out, this web page is for you:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/5221/WM-P88-Peugeot.html

In fact, this PRV-powered Le Mans car holds the top speed record at Le Mans:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/5221/WM-P88-Peugeot.html

OverlandMan
03-06-2014, 10:48 AM
Yes, this is a 4 valve DOHC, twin-turbo application but for anyone thinking that the PRV is somehow incapable of putting out, this web page is for you:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/5221/WM-P88-Peugeot.html

In fact, this PRV-powered Le Mans car holds the top speed record at Le Mans:

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/5221/WM-P88-Peugeot.html

So that's what twin turbos, DOHCs, and a teeny bit more displacement gets you? Pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

kings1527
03-06-2014, 11:26 AM
I had no prior experience with KJet let alone car engines (maybe a bit of experience with 2-stroke jet skis) and no real problem with my engine when I bought it (other than an idle at about 1000 RPM due to bad decel springs...fixed thanks to the tip from Dave McKeen). I've done a ton of work to my engine, basically getting everything off of it, including the cooling system, to where the next step would be pulling the heads if I had to, and then put it all back together and it runs like a champ. It looks like it had gotten a little hot in there before but my plastic screen was still intact on the oil filler so it probably wasn't that bad. But history-wise, it looks like things were ok to start with on my engine.

Granted, you have those funky qwirks with KJet usually dealing with hot starts, sometimes a cold start, etc. But I have a tremendous amount of respect for an engine that I can massacre with my inexperienced hands, put it back together and then take it on a 450 mile roundtrip without any problems. Kind of like being a factory worker from Dunmurry who might've not even had a driver's license back in the day! It's been my experience with the PRV and KJet that when it's working, it works rather excellent. If my biggest worry after a new fuel accumulator is that I have to press my accelerator about 1/3 of the way for an easier cold start (as stated in the driver's manual), then I'll take it.

I know SEVERAL PRVs that have eclipsed 250k miles rather easily and a few that have gone 500k and that's just within the DeLorean community. What about the Volvo community? This was a popular engine in Europe before the DeLorean and it seems the key is don't overheat it and maintain regular oil changes. Other than that, it's very difficult to claim the PRV is an Achille's heal. There's been way too much success with it. A company doesn't produce over 970k units during a production run if it's a disaster.

NightFlyer
03-06-2014, 02:34 PM
Pretty good online forum for PRVs. Now if only I could read French...

http://www.prv-concept.com/

thirdmanj
03-06-2014, 03:17 PM
Pretty good online forum for PRVs. Now if only I could read French...

http://www.prv-concept.com/

Isn't that why God invented Google Translate?

David T
03-06-2014, 03:50 PM
Isn't that why God invented Google Translate?

If you have had several shops/mechanics try to fix your car and it is still not working right, that speaks to the abilities of the people who are trying to fix it, NOT the car or it's systems. The PRV CAN be made to run well with it's K-Jet system but ONLY if you know what you are doing! I agree, if you can't get anyone to fix it right one option is to shitcan the motor and try something else but that is like moving out of a house because you can't fix a roof leak. If you think you have problems now just wait till you do the engine swap. The ONLY way these are anywhere near successful is when the owner has the time and abilities to do all of the tweaking necessary. No one can afford to pay someone to put all of the time in. That includes THROUGH AND COMPLETE documentation. And it is not like you will do it once. Things never go the way you plan and you will find you will be doing and redoing many things over. No engine swap has ever demonstrated long-term reliability and has been pointed out you will have very few options when you need service. Most of these swaps are done just because they want a challenge. If that is what you want then go for it. The motor always turns out to be the cheapest part. It is all of the other things you will need and the time that gets you. And has been mentioned the car will be seriously devalued.

Henrik
03-06-2014, 04:52 PM
So that's what twin turbos, DOHCs, and a teeny bit more displacement gets you? Pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

So upgrade to a 3.0L Premier PRV and you're a third of the way there !!:nana1:

SEO Motorsports
03-07-2014, 12:30 AM
I have tons of respect for the PRV, but I think everyone is forgetting about doing an engine swap to be unique like why people buy DeLoreans in the first place and gain respectable performance gains. The engine I pulled out of my 60K mile perfectly running 350z is probably "better" than the VR6 I put in but the car is being built right and will sell for way more that a stock car when I decide to sell it. That's another factor, the 2JZ car sold for more than what I've seen concourse DeLoreans sell for. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and being unique doesn't hurt.

nullset
03-07-2014, 08:57 AM
I have tons of respect for the PRV, but I think everyone is forgetting about doing an engine swap to be unique like why people buy DeLoreans in the first place and gain respectable performance gains. The engine I pulled out of my 60K mile perfectly running 350z is probably "better" than the VR6 I put in but the car is being built right and will sell for way more that a stock car when I decide to sell it. That's another factor, the 2JZ car sold for more than what I've seen concourse DeLoreans sell for. Something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and being unique doesn't hurt.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a well done engine swap. However, it's not cheap and it's not easy. I'd say at least 80% of engine swaps end up in the car being undrivable and sold for parts.

The 2JZ swap was incredible. It was done by someone with a large amount of skill and money. Nick's LS1 is pretty awesome, and again, he is quite skilled.

Most of the time, your average owner would be better off either fixing the existing engine, or replacing it with a crate engine from one of the vendors.

thirdmanj
03-07-2014, 09:42 AM
...or replacing it with a crate engine from one of the vendors.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/07/pa7epuza.jpg

DeLorean03
03-07-2014, 10:30 AM
The 2JZ swap was incredible. It was done by someone with a large amount of skill and money. Nick's LS1 is pretty awesome, and again, he is quite skilled.



You do know that 82dmc-12, the gentleman you're addressing, IS the one who did the 2JZ swap, right?

Flicky
03-29-2014, 03:16 AM
In your video in the first like 5 seconds what is that puff of smoke from the rear left hand side? It looks to also do it when you rev'd it from a location near your hand. It sounds more "ticky" than I'd expect. Could this be a massively clogged cat or exhaust restriction? What are your vacuum gauge readings (steady/bouncy) any drop when held at rev? Did it ever run right for you in the past?

Nicholas R
03-29-2014, 03:47 PM
In your video in the first like 5 seconds what is that puff of smoke from the rear left hand side? It looks to also do it when you rev'd it from a location near your hand. It sounds more "ticky" than I'd expect. Could this be a massively clogged cat or exhaust restriction? What are your vacuum gauge readings (steady/bouncy) any drop when held at rev? Did it ever run right for you in the past?

To what video are you referring to? Is this where you meant to post?

Flicky
03-29-2014, 06:12 PM
The video from the OP on March 4th (page3). He was showing what the car is doing when running.

I know you guys got caught-up in debating the validity of an engine swap vs fixing the PRV, but he likely still has a problem.

John U
05-08-2014, 04:19 PM
Btrottie.....is this your car?

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/ottawa/81-delorean-project-car/590785073?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Domi
05-08-2014, 04:48 PM
Cool project car, this one needs to be saved :)

Gfrank
05-09-2014, 07:45 AM
Do believe that is the car in question yes

Dangermouse
05-09-2014, 08:31 AM
Based on the hail damaged hood, I would say so, too.

John U
05-28-2014, 08:54 PM
Im surprised this thing hasn't sold yet. Don't see many DeLoreans in the $10000 range anymore

lazabby
05-30-2014, 10:53 AM
So I just found out about the VQ35 Swap yesterday, this makes me very excited! Granted I want to keep my PRV and try finding the Intake Manifold for EFI (forgot the name of it 307 or something?). But the fact someone put in a VQ35 has got me thinking that putting in a QR25DER, VQ35-k3, maybe even a MR16DDT, hell maybe even gut a Leaf to swap parts on to it! Maybe even the 2.9L Cummins Diesel.

Ohhh the possibilities, but I don't foresee my self doing that anytime soon...

You can do an EFI conversion on your Delorean and keep the existing intake manifold.

dn010
05-30-2014, 06:18 PM
If there is someone out there that can confirm the fit on a stock DeLorean engine - I have 2 or 3 spare EFI intakes and butterfly assemblies...

I still have my original, stock engine sitting in my garage covered on a dolly; but unfortunately I took it out running perfect and I don't want to mess with it in case I decide to sell it as a whole, running assembly - otherwise I'd pop the intake off and check the fit.

Anonymous
08-09-2017, 08:46 PM
Louie, you'll notice that I said in my experience.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

opethmike
08-10-2017, 12:31 AM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I that popcorn isn't buttered; not good for your heart.

sdg3205
08-10-2017, 12:32 AM
French toast

opethmike
08-10-2017, 05:20 AM
ghost peppers