Ask Bill about carbing a DeLorean and other K-Jet/Carb tangets

[stevedmc]

I've got my bowl of popcorn and am ready for some good reading.

[DCUK Martin]

I see no Bill in the membership list? :dunno:

[DMCMW Dave]

Maybe nobody told him about the .org thing. . . . .

[stevedmc]

I wonder what happened to theAviator. He was getting ready to convert a few months back.

[The Aviator]

we're back!!!

[The Aviator]

I wonder what happened to theAviator. He was getting ready to convert a few months back.

i was checking everyday to see if there was any updates, i than threw a google search found a dmchelp.com thread about dmctalk going now, checked that daily to find us with a new name, glad they worked everything out, i was kicking myself in the ass because i didnt have bills contact info

danny

[stevedmc]

Shoot me a PM. I believe I have both his phone number and email addy.

[Farrar]

I think Bill is not talking to me because I bought another Chrysler product. :lol:

Farrar

[The Aviator]

Shoot me a PM. I believe I have both his phone number and email addy.


ah thanks man, i appreciate that!


I think Bill is not talking to me because I bought another Chrysler product. :lol:

Farrar

Farrar, whats up!? glad to see you!

[Farrar]

Farrar, whats up!? glad to see you!

Thanks, it's good to be seen. :)

Not much is up here apart from the ambient temperature, hence I haven't been driving the car much. The car is still waiting for a new evaporator core while I get busy with moving to a different apartment in a few weeks. I'll probably replace the alternator at that time, too.

Farrar

[joebob101]

I just got my "Bill" carb kit installed. I'm not finished with everything, but I am so pleased to be able to start and drive the car without the inherent problems of K-Jet. Once finished, I may be able to drive the car to the Sonic without the fear of getting it to restart. Engine runs smoothly, idle is good, throttle response is crisp.

I love the D and wish I could keep it totally original, but I want to drive the car and it has been so unreliable that I finally decided to make the change and keep all the parts for a future restoration.

[SamHill]

Invalid reasons. Sorry. 8)

[Farrar]

After my a/c leak was conclusively sourced to the evaporator, and I had no time or money to fix it, I opted to let the car sit until such time as I can repair the leak and drive with a/c. Well, a few weeks ago, it was cool enough after sundown to simply drive with the windows open, and so I decided to take the car for a spin. Once the bowl was filled with fuel, the engine fired right up. Throttle response was fantastic, idle was rock-solid. And the fuel in the tank was more than a couple of months old. My car never behaved as well when it was K-Jet, even after it was looked over and pronounced to be just fine. All I can say is "it works for me."

Farrar

[Oddfire]

Does anyone have a picture of the setup Bill assembles (not his car, but the aftermarket intake manifolds)? I would like to see what's done with the throttle cable.

Let me clarify though; I've seen Bill's car, and what he did for his, but how are others doing it. Are you using the stock throttle spool? If so, did you rig up a support bracket of some sort? Did you run a new cable? or did you hack the existing?

Thanks!

[stevedmc]

Here are a few pictures of my manifold. I used my old throttle cable and simply cut it short enough to fit the new throttle assembly.

[The Aviator]

anyone inform bill that the site is back up?!

[DCUK Martin]

....without the inherent problems of K-Jet.

Now come on.... let's turn over a new leaf please.

There are things on the car that are inherantly flawed, the handbrake callipers spring to mind. The fuel injection system is not one, unless you count:

1) Intolerance to being left for years with old fuel in it.
2) Lack of knowledge on the part of those working on it.

I ain't gonna moan at anyone for converting to a carburetor, but I will continue to pipe up when K-Jet is unfairly bashed.

[nofear365]

Now come on.... let's turn over a new leaf please.

There are things on the car that are inherantly flawed, the handbrake callipers spring to mind. The fuel injection system is not one, unless you count:

1) Intolerance to being left for years with old fuel in it.
2) Lack of knowledge on the part of those working on it.

I ain't gonna moan at anyone for converting to a carburetor, but I will continue to pipe up when K-Jet is unfairly bashed.


+1

[Soundkillr]

I'm not sure why this thread or several others were revived. These serve no purpose other than to stir the pot. I understand if Bill was here but has anyone even heard from him? And who even cares where the monch and real world pricing fight thread has gone?

[stevedmc]

Bill is probably on vacation. Unlike me, he probably has a life.

[The Aviator]

where in the world is bill!? we miss u bill, even martin misses you!

[Farrar]

Martin misses Bill only because it's difficult to aim properly over so great a distance.

OK, just kidding. :)

Farrar

[content22207]

Apologies for the delayed response -- I've been preoccupied with my newest vehicle:
672

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

Apologies for the delayed response -- I've been preoccupied with my newest vehicle:
672

Bill Robertson
#5939

Nice. I told you guys Bill actually has a life, unlike some of us.

[The Aviator]

Apologies for the delayed response -- I've been preoccupied with my newest vehicle:
672

Bill Robertson
#5939

Alright bill! now i feel like everything is back to normal, glad to see you back!

danny

[Bitsyncmaster]

Apologies for the delayed response -- I've been preoccupied with my newest vehicle:
672

Bill Robertson
#5939

I would use your truck to push it. Not the D :D

[Farrar]

Welcome to the new DMCTalk, Bill! Glad you're doing well.

Farrar

[sean]

Welcome to the new DMCTalk, Bill! Glad you're doing well.
Roger that! He's my favorite Diet Cheerwine drinking carb installing North Carolinian DeLorean I know.

[Dangermouse]

It's the Carb SchoolBus :cheers:

[content22207]

Actually, this is the carbureted bus:
687

I'm on my way to the church right now, so I'll snap a pic of its engine compartment while I'm over there (Motorcraft 2100 carburetor, 40,000 volt Pertronix coil, MSD plug wires -- sound familiar?)

The new bus grosses nearly 30,000 lbs, which simply is too much for gasoline combustion.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

As promised:
688

I keep telling you Boo Boos: if you want your vehicle to run right:
- Motorcraft 2100
- High voltage ignition (this bus has an Ignitor electronic ignition module where the points used to be)
- MSD plug wires
- Motorcraft or Delco plugs with .05" gap

The bus starts immediately on the first key turn, no matter how hot or cold it is outside, and runs flawlessly thereafter (even sans vacuum advance -- did you notice the barb has a vacuum cap on it? There's a hole in the advance diaphragm, and replacement diaphragms for those Holley distributors are rare as hens teeth and cost a small fortune when you do find one. I just advanced base time slightly. The engine spends most of its time at full throttle anyway because it's saddled to a humongous Allison automatic transmission -- you basically put your foot on the floor and just leave it there. Everyone is bitching & complaining because the new bus is a straight drive, and apparently I am the only person able to drive it, which is fine with me because they have tortured this poor International every which way since Christmas yet it still hums along. They did manage to put a rod through the oil pan of the other bus).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

Bill,

Now that my car is carbureted, can I safely remove the idle ECU and Lambda ECU and save some current draw? My volt meter reads 13v while driving with no lights or a/c running, which seems low to me.

Thanks,
Farrar

[DCUK Martin]

Yes you can unplug them.... although the power saving will be negligible. Wanna sell your idle ECU? :D

[content22207]

Works for me:
736
(Is anyone ever going to move archives from the old site to this one...).

Dash gauges can be notoriously inaccurate -- put a hand held meter on the car itself.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

FWIW, with everything on except the power windows, at 2,000 RPM, my car draws slightly more than 62 amps:
737

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

Yes you can unplug them.... although the power saving will be negligible. Wanna sell your idle ECU? :D

Thanks, Martin. Looks like it might be time for a new alternator -- I guess 18 months is average lifespan for a DMC alternator? Oy, vey.

Not planning on selling the idle ECU, though. All of the old fuel system parts I've taken off the car are in storage.

Edit: Bill, do you have low-amp cooling fans on your car?

Edit of the edit: That was measured with a volt meter at the battery terminals. 13.1 v.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

Bill,

Now that my car is carbureted, can I safely remove the idle ECU and Lambda ECU and save some current draw? My volt meter reads 13v while driving with no lights or a/c running, which seems low to me.

Thanks,
Farrar

Yes and no. It all depends on what you are tapping into for 12v power to your electric choke. I am currently tapped into a 12v wire that is coming from the idle ECU.

Someday I am going to get around to removing my K-Jet wiring and will run a 12v wire directly from the fusebox area. Perhaps we need to have a tech session to remove our K-Jet wiring.

[stevedmc]

Thanks, Martin. Looks like it might be time for a new alternator -- I guess 18 months is average lifespan for a DMC alternator? Oy, vey.

Another reason to use a lifetime warranty from Autozone.

[Farrar]

Another reason to use a lifetime warranty from Autozone.

Already bought one -- need to buy washers. :lol:

Farrar

[Bitsyncmaster]

Yes and no. It all depends on what you are tapping into for 12v power to your electric choke. I am currently tapped into a 12v wire that is coming from the idle ECU.

Someday I am going to get around to removing my K-Jet wiring and will run a 12v wire directly from the fusebox area. Perhaps we need to have a tech session to remove our K-Jet wiring.

If you are using the idle motor center conductor than that has a 2 amp diode driven from the idle ECU. Don't know what your choke uses but you could just spice the green wire to the black/pink wire and then you won't need the ECU.

[Farrar]

I would use the 12v wire to the warm-up regulator. I'm not sure, but I think that's the one Bill picked when we did my conversion.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

I would use the 12v wire to the warm-up regulator. I'm not sure, but I think that's the one Bill picked when we did my conversion.

Farrar

Unplug your idle ECU and see if you still have voltage at the choke. If you do then it is safe to remove your idle ECU.

With the alternator make sure you wrap the washers with some electrical tape. It will make it much easier to install them as one spacer. If you don't install it by July 9th I can install it for you at Freds. He is talking about having a tech day and going to a cruise in that night.

If you haven't swapped pulleys they can probably do that at autozone or I can do it for you with a pipe wrench and breaker bar.

[content22207]

CPR supply comes off the RPM relay, which will render it useless if you ever throw the damn thing away.

Look closely at my ECU compartment pic (which is #2508 BTW) and you'll see the choke wire coming off one of the old ECU harness connectors and running out the same grommet as the distributor signal wire.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

I'll have to see about ditching the ECU when I'm working on the car in the coming weeks... not point in having it there if I'm not using it, and it's crowded in that compartment with the Wings-A-Loft alarm system box there as well. I can add it to the pile of K-Jet parts that I don't need any more...

[Farrar]

Wait -- when did Ashyukun carburete? And how do you pronounce Ashyukun anyway?

Farrar

[content22207]

Bob Babcock. He got Jim Edwards' manifold, right before DCS'10. I am *FINALLY* putting the finishing touches on Jim's conversion, about a year late....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[theMonch]

So, is anybody running a carb conversion manifold with a throttle body efi system like the Fast EZ-EFI or Holly Avenger on the PVR? I know they are a bit pricey at 2k on average, but they really are great turn key self tuning systems.

[DCUK Martin]

The idle system is NOT part of the fuel system!

[content22207]

The idle system is NOT part of the fuel system!

I'm not sure where this comment comes from (almost looks as if it refers to a preceding post deleted by Sean), but with a carburetor the idle system (closed throttle plates) most definitely is integrated with throttle fuel delivery. The Motorcraft 2100 even uses the same metering jets for both (some carbs have different jets for idle mixture).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

Okay, I admit it, I did a Robertson, reading stuff that wasn't actually written. :dunno:

I see posts referring to the ditching of the idle system as well as the fuel system when the two are wholly indepentent. The fact that you can't use the CIS is a major drawback of converting to carburetion.

[content22207]

Actually you *CAN*incorporate an idle air valve into a carburetor, including the 2100. Look clodely and tell me what do you see hanging off the back of this bad boy (I'll give you a hint -- it's an idle air valve): http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqIOKiQE2f!ucs6uBN1TRVoSYQ~~_12.JPG.

That's a 2350 BTW -- later rendition of the same carb I use.

You're trolling in my sandbox now, homeboy....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

Not trolling. So why aren't you advocating the use of CIS? I do see how one could be incorporated into a carburetor, but it'd be a "wet" system and the valve would need to be able to stand up to fuel in the air it's passing.

[content22207]

Um, this is just a guess in the dark: because I don't want to?

Owners are free to do with their cars whatever they want. If an owner wants to install an electronically controlled carburetor, that's his or her business, and his or her business alone. Neither my opinion, nor your opinion, nor anyone else's opinion has any bearing on the decision.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

electronically controlled carburetor


Ber?

I'm talking about constant idle control, the carburetor part would remain resolutely "dumb"

[content22207]

Bullshit. Please read up on electronically controlled carburetors, such as the ThermoQuad and Ford VV, before posting.

Curious isn't it that Sean kicks me out of EFI threads, yet lets Martin troll away in the carburetor threads.... (Oops -- probably just got my myself temporarily banned from the new website for that one).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

Bullshit. Please read up on electronically controlled carburetors, such as the ThermoQuad and Ford VV, before posting.

I'm trying to establish why the CIS can't be employed on the DeLorean running a carburetor. it'd be an improvement. I'm not trolling, I'm asking questions. You seem intent of avoiding answering. Any CIS system controls air flow bypassing the throttle. The throttle is downstream of the venturi ipso facto is would need to be a "wet" system in a carburetor. FI meters air flow pre-throttle and injects it downstream of the throttle solving this problem.

[content22207]

I make what I make. If you don't want it, don't buy it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

So it can't be used then?

[content22207]

No, I simply choose not to.

If you want to adapt a 2350 to the stock CIS ECU, knock yourself out. I've got my hands full just making what I already make.

I offer a conversion that more or less transforms a DeLorean PRV into a 1979 Mustang V6.

The reason these carb conversions work so well is because I stick to a vetted design. Now that the manifolds are welded up on a jig, positive results are virtually guaranteed on the very first key turn. Nevertheless, I test drive each conversion extensively on my own car before signing off on it.

The other advantage of sticking to a standardized design is that every conversion increases a common knowledge base.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

While I'm taking an A/C break, since no one seems interested in reviving the old DMCTalk archives:
1055 1058 1053 1052 1059 1054 1057 1056

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

Just when I was starting to take my carburetor for granted I have noticed several threads with issues related to fuel delivery. Man I love my little Motorcraft 2100.

It is so nice to not have all the K-Jet issues. The purists can say what they want but DMCTalk is proof.

[content22207]

How about owners trying to get an EFI conversion to work -- talk about a barrel of monkeys.

Say whatever you want about a carb conversion -- the engine does start (and continues to run) on the very first key turn.

Have you noticed the double standard: whenever an EFI converter gets discouraged and contemplates giving up, Forum members come out of the woodwork with encouragement to keep trying. Whenever a carb converter mentions that his car started on the first key turn, Forum members tell him to shut up (or worse -- remember the carb thread on the old site, especially around Page 50...).

As long as I have a bowl full of fuel and air moving through my venturis (and only through my venturis), I have fuel delivery. It is physically impossible for my fuel/air mixture to get out of whack unless I change jets. "Reliable" and "trouble free" are totally inadequate to describe what's going on behind me.

I drive the ever living crap out of #5939 without doing anything more than change its oil (I am OCD about oil changes). I don't even wash the poor thing. I just jump in, turn the key, and go. Logged nearly 10,000 miles last year alone. Some K-Jet Boo Boo is going to jump in and say "so did I" -- I really don't give a damn. At least I can change Spark Plug #4 (in seconds, thank you very much).

I've got a few other irons in my fire at the moment, but hopefully next week I can finish Danny's and Jim's conversions. I'll definitely post pictures of Danny's -- an early model 2100 adapted to a Peugeot 604 manifold (I still have James Wallen's Peugeot manifold, so I'll be able to test drive Danny's installation). The throttle cable bracket still needs to be designed and fabbed. Most likely it will hang off the back of the carburetor itself because a Peugeot 604 manifold doesn't have any suitable mounting points (if you remember Del Silveira's installation, he mounted his throttle cable bracket to the passenger side head).

Anyone care to place bets whether or not Danny's and Jim's conversions will work on the very first key turn?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

How are things working out with the green manifold? I've been wondering if you have put it on your other car yet.

[content22207]

#2508 is still in pieces all over my house and back yard. It will be a while before that manifold is put into service.

My hope is to have #2508 on the road in time for DMA FF'11.

I did have my machine shop fill a void in the carb adapter that will be created when I turn the manifold around (PO's were using it with the vacuum ports towards the front). I modify the passenger side port to hold my throttle cable bracket, so I need it in the back (HVAC/brake booster barb needs to be back there too). The adapter welded to that manifold is footprinted for a Motorcraft 2100 already, which is terribly convenient.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

The adapter welded to that manifold is footprinted for a Motorcraft 2100 already, which is terribly convenient.

It also supports the argument that the Motorcraft 2100 is a commonly used carburetor with far better support than Kjet.

[content22207]

The 2100 was Ford's front line 2 barrel carburetor (for engines above 170 cubic inches) for more than a quarter century. AMC and Chrysler also used it. It remained in new vehicle production through 1991 (Jeep Grand Cherokee).

A claim was made on the old site that K-Jet is better known and supported than the 2100. That is beyond laughable. The number of Mustangs alone still running around with 2100's under their hoods has to be in the hundreds of thousands, if not close to a million (8.5 million Mustangs were built through 1985, of course not all of them 2 barrel). Don't forget F100/150's, other vintage Fords, pre-emission Jeeps, AMC V8's, etc. I recently looked under the hood of a 370 equipped 1987 school bus -- guess what I found sitting on top....

Bill Robertson
#5939

[joebob101]

I'm still sorting out some automatic kick-down issues, but the 2100 has completely changed my outlook on my D. I want to drive the car, but was afraid that the K-jet would leave me stranded somewhere (and it did frequently). That's not a worry with the 2100. It starts and runs perfectly every time. Thanks for all your work, Bill. I'm really enjoying my car now that it's reliable. Garen Martens

[content22207]

The important thing to understand about putting a 2100 on a DeLorean is that the 2100 was thoroughly vetted through more than a quarter century of use. We are doing absolutely no original engineering as far as the carburetor itself is concerned (remember that Ford used the 2100 as original equipment on its 2.8 liter V6's). An owner can simply bolt one on (suitably sized and jetted of course) and expect known operational characteristics, engine health itself permitting. I'm not saying carburetion in general is good or bad -- only that a 2100 in particular will produce predictable results.

Re: full throttle kickdown: first & foremost ensure your microswitch is working via a continuity check. It's a cheap switch that does go bad. The plunger on the switch I use for test fitting tends to get stuck inside and not spring back out.

If the switch is OK, make sure your throttle arm is closing it at full throttle. Holes in the bracket are oblong so you can adjust it front to back.

The switch closes a ground -- make sure the black wire from it has continuity to the block.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

Just because a 2100 is basically guaranteed to always work properly (no vaccum leaks elsewhere), do *NOT* assume that fuel delivery itself is assured. There are two trouble spots elsewhere in the system that can, and often do, fail:
1) If you are using factory pump wiring, you are every bit as dependent upon the RPM relay and inertia switch as a K-Jetter. RPM relays are notorious for failure, especially after prolonged use. I've also seen several melted inertia switches, including my own. Any failure in the pump electrical circuit will allow the bowl to run dry and the engine will stop.
2) Airtex has had QC issues. I lost a pump to bearing failure at DMA FFT'09 (the poor thing jumped around like a Mexican jumping bean, but moved almost no fuel). Users of my fuel pump carrier are not beholden to Airtex pumps -- any pump that fits inside can be substituted, or a length of hose can be run from it to a pump mounted elsewhere.

It is possible to limp a carbureted DeLorean to a safe haven in case of pump failure by filling the bowl manually. I carry a tiny funnel and an empty Coke bottle for such purpose, and as stated at DMA FFT'09 I had to do just that. In a worst case scenario you can dip fuel directly out of the tank. Each bowl full will get you 1/2-3/4 miles, terrain and speed depending. Fill the bowl through one of the vent chimneys. Be careful not to overfill it or you will flood the intake and lose precious distance rev'ing the engine to clear out excess fuel.

The longest distance I have ever limped a car is approximately 10 miles. In that instance I was able to rig up a Coke bottle to gravity feed the carb so refills were nearly a mile apart (I could only run the Coke bottle halfway down before fuel level dropped below the neck):
1313
This was a high compression 460, which only gets 8-10 MPG in the best of circumstances. A similar arrangement on a DeLorean might yield up to 2 miles between refills.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

Wait -- when did Ashyukun carburete? And how do you pronounce Ashyukun anyway?

Farrar
Sorry, didn't see this until I went back hunting to see what I could safely ditch from my ECU compartment while I'm working in there (need to hunt down the picture of Bill's compartment, though a keep/remove list wouldn't hurt :P).

16655 has actually never run in my possession with anything other than the carb, and I've never regretted it at all. I'm firmly convinced there's no way it would have made it to DCS last year on time if I'd been trying to get the K-Jet running for as long as the car had sat and how much of a disaster the fuel tank was.

It's technically pronounced Ash-you-coon. Back something in the vicinity of 15 years ago or more when I was in college first had to start coming up with a username for sites as the internet became more prominent, my nickname (as there were several 'Bob's) was Ash (due to my love of Army of Darkness). However, due to the popularity of ANOTHER 'Ash' from Pokemon, there wasn't anyplace that 'Ash' was available as a username. As most of the sites I was at the time signing up on were in one way or another related to anime (Japanese animation), I used what I knew of the language to 'romanize' the name- any words that end in a consonant besides 'N' usually get a 'u' added to the end (the 'yu' makes it a bit more pronouncable... yeah, doesn't matter in application, but made sense at the time...) , and '-kun' is a common-usage honorific. I've just stuck with using it ever since as it's not something I've ever seen anyone else use...

[Ashyukun]

Works for me:
736
(Is anyone ever going to move archives from the old site to this one...).

Bill Robertson
#5939
One question on this... doesn't the annoying white/grey wire to the coil come from the removed box there (Idle ECU, I believe...)?

[content22207]

CIS has nothing to do with ignition. They are two totally separate systems.

I am currently running with a Ford Duraspark module temporarily substituted for the Bosch ignition ECU (testing for another owner):
2319
It's just laying loose in the ECU compartment.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

It's technically pronounced Ash-you-coon... '-kun' is a common-usage honorific.

Ah, so that would make our mutual friend "Bill-sama"? ;)

Thanks for the clarification.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

I am currently running with a Ford Duraspark module temporarily substituted for the Bosch ignition ECU (testing for another owner)

I wonder if he is planning any major tests this weekend. We are having a tech day and cruise in this saturday.

[content22207]

Owner is in Georgia.

We don't for certain whether his Bosch unit is bad -- I just wanted to be ready in case it is (you can't buy a replacement Bosch ECU over the counter).

I do intend to make another adapter to keep in my car, for my own future contingencies. Duraspark modules are stock items at all parts houses nationwide.

To be brutally honest, I haven't noticed any difference running a Ford module versus Bosch. There's a loose wire from the Duraspark ECU that is normally attached to a starter trigger signal (not present in the Bosch harness), but my car is starting just fine without it.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

Ah, so that would make our mutual friend "Bill-sama"? ;)

Thanks for the clarification.

Farrar
I would probably go with -sensei vs. -sama. 8)

[sean]

The delicious tangent can be continued here:
http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?705-The-heavenly-nectar-that-is%E2%80%A6Cheerwine.***Split-from-Ask-bill-about-carbs-thread***

[Farrar]

I would probably go with -sensei vs. -sama. 8)

Pfft -- shows you how long it's been since I watched any anime. :lol: OK, back on topic...

Bill, I'm gearing up to replicate your ground bus. Can you please explain why you used plates to connect some of the wires instead of grounding them directly to the brackets in the compartments behind the seats -- was it because the bolts were different sizes? Thanks!

Farrar

[DCUK Martin]

RPM relays are notorious for failure, especially after prolonged use.

This is Bill's opinion and is not backed up by significant data.


One question on this... doesn't the annoying white/grey wire to the coil come from the removed box there (Idle ECU, I believe...)?

That "annoying grey wire" is your ignition signal, without it, your engine will not work

[content22207]

Bill, I'm gearing up to replicate your ground bus. Can you please explain why you used plates to connect some of the wires instead of grounding them directly to the brackets in the compartments behind the seats -- was it because the bolts were different sizes?

Brackets in the ECU and relay compartments are as crappy as the rest of the car (my opinion). That ground block is 1/8" thick stainless steel. The crappy (my opinion) ECU bracket merely has to hold it still, which debatably is within its realm of capability.

I have no idea what I may need to ground in the future. That's the purpose of the 1/4" center stud -- to give me a convenient, non-crappy ground point for anything I ever need to attach.

I also am using the stainless bar across the front of the car as a ground block (both ground junctions behind the headlights are tied into it with 8 gauge wire). It is attached to the radiator bracket bolt with 8 gauge wire -- that's the only part of my bus that isn't 4 gauge (ground bus originates at that bolt).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

That "annoying grey wire" is your ignition signal, without it, your engine will not work
Believe me, I know the engine won't work without it. :P It's 'annoying' in the manner of 'I've had problems with the bulkhead connection being flaky', not, 'I wish I could just get rid of that wire.'

There's a decent chance I'm going to run a new wire in its place when I'm doing all this work, one that goes through the bulkhead hole the wire from the distributor goes through and straight to the coil so I don't have to deal with all the crap from the connectors. I think that the cruise control system I'm also putting in needs to tap off that signal line as well, so it'll kill two birds with one wire so to speak.

[content22207]

I don't know where you tapped your choke heater, but removing an ECU could kill it as well. Just run a new wire through that same grommet to the power supply for the CIS ECU (Green). Use a male quick connect and stick it into the harness connector.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

I don't know where you tapped your choke heater, but removing an ECU could kill it as well. Just run a new wire through that same grommet to the power supply for the CIS ECU (Green). Use a male quick connect and stick it into the harness connector.

Bill Robertson
#5939
My choke heater is tapped off one of the wires from the aux relays, so removing the ECU shouldn't affect it in the least.

[DCUK Martin]

The crappy (my opinion) ECU bracket merely has to hold it still, which debatably is within its realm of capability.

Let's have that debate now shall we? Anyone out there have problems with this collapsing due to not being made of 1/4" thick plate? :smackbum:

BTW you do realise that stainless steel is actually a pretty poor conductor? The best conductor per unit mass is aluminium.

[Bitsyncmaster]

Let's have that debate now shall we? Anyone out there have problems with this collapsing due to not being made of 1/4" thick plate? :smackbum:

BTW you do realise that stainless steel is actually a pretty poor conductor? The best conductor per unit mass is aluminium.

Actually, silver is the best conductor of electricity, then copper.

[DCUK Martin]

Notice my words "per unit mass"

[Bitsyncmaster]

Notice my words "per unit mass"

I was just going to edit my post. You got me.

[DCUK Martin]

Well you got me opening my books to check what the resistivity of gold was - you almost got me! :wink:

[content22207]

Is Martin seriously going to argue that my DeLorean is *LESS* well grounded than a stock vehicle?

Every single OEM ground junction has been tied into 4 gauge bus (except the two behind the headlights, which are 8 gauge). The engine is also attached with 4 gauge cable (located at the top of the block, where it is most weather and road grime protected). The bus itself is attached to the battery with its own lug. This is all *ADDED* to the original grounds. My DeLorean is arguably the best grounded DeLorean in the world (which may explain why I never have any of the electrical problems that seem so prevalent in the General forum).

BTW: That bundle of ground wires at the radio bracket is almost exclusively grounds *IN*. There is only *ONE* 16 gauge ground wire out towards the battery. Pretty piss poor design if you ask me (every single device grounded at the radio bracket is dependent upon one single undersized ground wire).

Total cost of my ground bus was less than $50 (closer to $30 IIRC) -- less than a single stainless steel DMC logo doodad. Pretty cheap investment for the return, IMHO.

Apparently Martin's ongoing attacks on my car are not tangential, for moderators are perfectly content to leave them in place.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[SamHill]

Let's get back to carbs: the breather cover is also a superior surface for resting a bottle of cold beverage, as seen from the ring stain on this picture, when Dad and I took my (or should I start saying 'our' at this point) dirty car to last week's cars and coffee in VA Beach

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mc_photo/5910444323/in/set-72157627135332330

[content22207]

I am still on a quest to find label laminating material that will hold up to engine compartment heat. Bring your car to FFT'11 (Alexandria VA) and I'll swap out your lid for the latest candidate.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

Is Martin seriously going to argue that my DeLorean is *LESS* well grounded than a stock vehicle?


When did Martin say anything of the sort? You do what makes you happy, even if it's pointless. You go on about the size of wires being inadequate, but have you measured the current carried by them and the resistance of them? (I know you like to measure resistance).



Apparently Martin's ongoing attacks on my car are not tangential, for moderators are perfectly content to leave them in place.


Martin, as ever, likes to police your erroneous comments wherever he spots them. And he was talking about your daft statement that the bracket holding the ECU is not up to the task... using stainless for a bus bar was just an offhand comment.

(and now Martin is facing an identity crisis due to speaking about himself in the third person :what_the:)

[content22207]

Martin, as ever, likes to police your erroneous comments wherever he spots them.

I clearly said "in my opinion" -- twice. There is absolutely nothing you can do to police American opinion (you nice British people tried that already in the late 1700's, and yet again about 40 years later -- it doesn't work).

In my opinion, DeLoreans are unmitigated English crap. Ford Motor Company on its worst day never built a car half a crappy as the cobbled together nee Lotus monstrosities DMC tried to foist on an uninterested market. The company died the quick death it deserved.

In my opinion.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

(you nice British people tried that already in the late 1700's, and yet again about 40 years later -- it doesn't work)

I have to admit this made me laugh. There were no "Americans" until after the Crown accepted that the colonies were lost. I have an "American" penny from 1775 -- guess whose head is on it. ;)

Farrar

[DCUK Martin]

I clearly said "in my opinion" -- twice. There is absolutely nothing you can do to police American opinion (you nice British people tried that already in the late 1700's, and yet again about 40 years later -- it doesn't work).

When have I ever brought nationality into this? You're the xenophobe here (and check out my surname, numbnuts...)



In my opinion, DeLoreans are unmitigated English crap. Ford Motor Company on its worst day never built a car half a crappy as the cobbled together nee Lotus monstrosities DMC tried to foist on an uninterested market. The company died the quick death it deserved.

http://techrights.org/files/trolltracker/20080528155008/troll.gif

Saying something really doesn't make it true, you know... And I think the guys in Norther Ireland might have something to say about being called "English".

[content22207]

The poor people in Ireland were relegated to building crap the English designed.

The only decent engineering on the car was done in the factory itself (integrated door pulls, rear fascia reinforcement, etc). The remainder of the vehicle is nothing more than warmed over substandard Lotus (English) garbage.

In my opinion.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DCUK Martin]

The remainder of the vehicle is nothing more than warmed over substandard Lotus (English) garbage.


You'll have to qualify that statement a bit better before people'll accept it as more than just a warmed over substandard attempt to troll. It's quite pathetic really.:nono:

[Farrar]

rear fascia reinforcement

What sort of reinforcement? My rear fascia is pretty warped. Maybe this reinforcement is missing on my car...

Farrar

[stevedmc]

Today my RPM relay decided to quit working while I was driving home from work. I was able to jumper pins 87 and 30 in order to get home but the fuel pump always runs when jumpered, even with the key removed.

On the old forum I seem to remember Bill talking about bypassing the RMP relay completely for reliability. I was considering leaving the connector jumpered but obviously I can't do that since it keeps pumping even when I remove the key from the ignition.

Does anyone know what trick he does to get it to stop pumping? I am guessing I could just run a keyed 12v wire directly to the pump.

[ramblinmike]

There is a keyed 12v at the RPM relay already.


Today my RPM relay decided to quit working while I was driving home from work. I was able to jumper pins 87 and 30 in order to get home but the fuel pump always runs when jumpered, even with the key removed.

On the old forum I seem to remember Bill talking about bypassing the RMP relay completely for reliability. I was considering leaving the connector jumpered but obviously I can't do that since it keeps pumping even when I remove the key from the ignition.

Does anyone know what trick he does to get it to stop pumping? I am guessing I could just run a keyed 12v wire directly to the pump.

[Ashyukun]

There is a keyed 12v at the RPM relay already.
Yeah, this is how mine is set up- it's jumpered such that the the fuel pump is running whenever the key is turned to 'run'- I just have to remember to not just leave the key sitting there in 'run' when 'aux' would suffice.

[Farrar]

Bill mentioned keying the fuel pump to switched power on the old DMCTalk, to the accompaniment of much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Evidently, if you wire up your fuel pump to run with the key on, your car will explode in a fiery ball of gasoline if you're ever in an accident. You have been warned... ;)

(FYI, I plan to make the same modification -- although I like the arrangement where the pump runs with a switch to fill the fuel bowl after sitting for a long time, I don't like the idea that I might hit the switch by accident.)

Farrar

[DCUK Martin]

If you run the fuel pump directly from the green wire at the RPM relay plug, you're loading the pump onto the wrong fuse. The RPM relay is there for a reason and that reason is primarily one of safety.

[Farrar]

If you run the fuel pump directly from the green wire at the RPM relay plug, you're loading the pump onto the wrong fuse.

I'm not sure if that's the wire Bill used; we'll have to wait for him to speak up.

Good evening, Martin! :)

Farrar

[stevedmc]

If you run the fuel pump directly from the green wire at the RPM relay plug, you're loading the pump onto the wrong fuse.

I know that. But our low pressure fuel pumps only use a few amps. My guess is it will pull from fuse #1 instead of fuse #7.

Fuse #1 - 10A fuse that powers, RPM Relay, distributor, vacuum solenoid, ignition ECU, and idle speed ECU
Fuse #7 - 20A fuse that powers lambda relay, lambda ECU, frequency valve, fuel pump, and control pressure regulator

The real question is can a 10A fuse power our low amp fuel pumps along with everything else on that circuit or will it blow?

[ramblinmike]

your car will explode in a fiery ball of gasoline if you're ever in an accident. You have been warned... ;)

Isn't that what the inertia switch is for?

[stevedmc]

This afternoon I am planning to remove my old K-jet wiring since I no longer need it. I have been staring at a messy engine bay for about a year and I am ready to clean things up.

I have searched a little bit and I can't find any pictures of what the bulk head connections should look like after the K-jet wiring has been removed. Does anyone have any pictures of a cleaned up engine bay such as Bills?

Bill used to have pictures on the old forum but I can't find them anywhere on the new forum.

[content22207]

2516

2517 2518

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

If you run the fuel pump directly from the green wire at the RPM relay plug, you're loading the pump onto the wrong fuse. The RPM relay is there for a reason and that reason is primarily one of safety.

Look closely at my empty RPM Relay socket:
2519
Purple/White is driven by a Green wire attached to Fuse 7 (if you look real closely you can see insulation piercings where Purple/White and RPM Relay Green used to be scotch locked together). The quick connect allows me to disable the pump.

Airtex low PSI pumps only draw 1.4 amps -- you could tap them in pretty much anywhere. I moved mine to Fuse 7 for design consistency, not because of electrical load.

As far as safety is concerned: when the needle valve is open, fuel pressure plummets to 2-3 PSI. Fuel flow into a carburetor is extremely low (it has to be -- the only thing shutting it off is a foam float pressing against a piece of rubber). Very different from EFI pressures, which seems to be where DeLoreans are catching fire and burning up, thank you very much.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

Thank you so much for the pictures and drawings. I was able to remove my old Kjet wiring this afternoon and I also rewired my ignition resistor and gapped my plugs to .50

I immediately noticed how much higher the car would idle. I assume this is because of the increased voltage and gap, although I might have managed to screw something up. Anyway, I set the idle down to 900 and everything seems to be fine.

Right now I am taking an AC break but I will try to go back out there before dark to snap some pictures.

I also made a jumper wire with connectors to jump my RPM relay wire. If I remember correctly I have a wire ran from the white/purple wire to the green one. I have another wire connected into my jumper that is supplying 12v to the electric choke on the carburetor.

Things are looking nice.


Edit: I forgot to mention but the picture of your RPM connector isn't loading for some reason.

[stevedmc]

As promised here are some pictures. Now it is time to pickup my tools, put the old wires in a bag, take a shower, and go for a cruise.

[content22207]

Make sure you are running a performance coil. Not all coils are rated to handle 12.5 volts on the primary side.

What happened to your fancy fuel filter bracket?

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

I believe I am running a Flamethrower coil from Hervey. If memory serves me right it is 40,000 volts.

Anyway, I replaced my fuel filter a few months back and couldn't get the new one in there without it leaking. I gave up and decided to just let the new one hang in the engine bay. I'm thinking maybe one day I will make a new fancy smancy fuel filter bracket with a hinge on it. That would make replacing the thing much much easier.

Edit: I forgot to mention but I just got back home from a 15 minute drive and had a blast. I took it on the interstate for a few minutes, had plenty of power, and nothing fell apart or exploded.

[ramblinmike]

Make sure you are running a performance coil. Not all coils are rated to handle 12.5 volts

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but will removing the ignition resistor hurt the ignition module? I'm running an aftermarket coil on the advice of one if the local guys and I didn't touch the resistor when I installed it. Thanks.

[content22207]

Resistors are there for the coil's benefit.

A Bosch coil can not handle full charging voltage. The stock resistor grid knocks primary voltage down to 6-8 volts. A Bosch coil itself adds another 1K ohms resistance. By the time you get to the negative terminal, voltage is only 3-4 volts.

Because they have more windings, performance coils actually have higher internal resistance than a Bosch coil. Pertronix is 1.5K ohms IIRC.

Coils are rated for maximum potential voltage, not nominal voltage. If you leave the stock resistor grid intact, there is no way a performance coil will produce anything close to 40,000 volts because there simply is not enough voltage going into the thing.

Even though I am running a 45,000 volt Pertronix coil at full charging voltage on my Ignitor equipped Lincoln no problem, I decided to leave at least some resistance on my DeLorean (note that Ford reduced primary voltage to 10.5 volts on its Duraspark systems). By wiring the resistors in parallel, which drops primary resistance to .25K ohms, I get 12.5-13 volts on the primary side. That means my 40,000 volt coil is probably producing closer to 38,000 volts maximum -- still more than enough to reliably jump a .05" plug gap.

In my case, simply sticking a high winding coil on an otherwise stock DeLorean igntion system (both primary resistors in place) would not produce anything close to 40,000 secondary volts -- more like 20,000 volts maximum. I do not know if that is enough to jump a wide plug gap reliably.

Before Martin starts waving his arms about "current" versus "voltage", remember that there are only two ways to increase current: increase voltage and/or decrease resistance. I do both: not only do I increase secondary voltage, but I run low ohm plug wires as well.

Don't forget there is a 5K ohm resistor built into the rotor button. One of these days I am going to Dremel mine out and straight wire it. I think that stupid resistor is what caused Farrar's distributor cap to melt. Andrea in Italy is running a resistorless rotor button IIRC. American manufacturers of course never added any resistance inside the distributor. Doing so only makes sense if you're listening to AM radio.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before but will removing the ignition resistor hurt the ignition module? I'm running an aftermarket coil on the advice of one if the local guys and I didn't touch the resistor when I installed it. Thanks.

Depends on your new coil resistance. The original setup draws about 6 amps when the engine is off. If your resistors and coil have lower resistance you will draw more current. I don't know the specifications of the output transistor in the ECU but you should not exceed that specification.

[stevedmc]

In my case, simply sticking a high winding coil on an otherwise stock DeLorean igntion system (both primary resistors in place) would not produce anything close to 40,000 secondary volts -- more like 20,000 volts maximum. I do not know if that is enough to jump a wide plug gap reliably.

About 6 months ago I installed a high performance coil, MSD wires, and increased spark plug gap without rewiring the resistor. This caused the engine to flood.

[content22207]

Carburetors don't care a lick about combustion -- they respond to intake alone. A carburetor will meter fuel normally even if ignition is missing altogether.

You weren't flooding anything -- by killing your spark (too wide plug of a gap for the voltage) you simply failed to ignite fuel that was being drawn in same as before.

A 2100 will flood the intake if a piece of trash prevents the needle valve from shutting off fuel inlet into the bowl. You will also flood the intake if you engage the accelerator pump multiple times before starting the engine.

And remember: the only way to change fuel/air mixture on a 2100 is to physically unscrew the jets and exchange them for a different size.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

You weren't flooding anything -- by killing your spark (too wide plug of a gap for the voltage) you simply failed to ignite fuel that was being drawn in same as before.

Thats what I mean. It wasn't igniting fuel.

[content22207]

Totally different problem than flooding.

Your's was an electrical problem, wholly independent from gasoline.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

OK, I've printed out Dave Delman's diagrams and chosen which wires I need to keep in the engine compartment. Bill, can you double-check this list for me?

Here's what I think I need to keep:

3 - top right side of ignition coil ballast resistor
5 - to primary (-) of ignition coil
10-18 - the entire "red plug harness" since I have an automatic transmission
25 - oil pressure switch
26 - choke heater (formerly control pressure regulator)
28 - a/c compressor clutch
29 - coolant temperature gauge sender
30 - oil pressure gauge sender
31 - to alternator light
32 - to starter motor solenoid
34 - auto trans kickdown switch
35 - ground for both tail light assemblies
36 - reverse lights
37 - power to engine compartment light
38 - right directional light
39 - from engine compartment light to switch
40 - left tail light/license plate light
41 - brake lights
42 - right tail light/license light
43 - left directional light

My plan is to simply remove the stock wiring and run new wires from the appropriate pins, making a new and much smaller harness.

Are any of the grounds in the engine compartment ganged together? In my list above I omitted a few ground leads, e.g. for the control pressure regulator and diagnostic port; however, if those grounds are shared by anything else, I suppose I would want to keep them.

Thanks!

Farrar

[stevedmc]

OK, I've printed out Dave Delman's diagrams and chosen which wires I need to keep in the engine compartment. Bill, can you double-check this list for me?

Here's what I think I need to keep:

3 - top right side of ignition coil ballast resistor
5 - to primary (-) of ignition coil
10-18 - the entire "red plug harness" since I have an automatic transmission
25 - oil pressure switch
26 - choke heater (formerly control pressure regulator)
28 - a/c compressor clutch
29 - coolant temperature gauge sender
30 - oil pressure gauge sender
31 - to alternator light
32 - to starter motor solenoid
34 - auto trans kickdown switch
35 - ground for both tail light assemblies
36 - reverse lights
37 - power to engine compartment light
38 - right directional light
39 - from engine compartment light to switch
40 - left tail light/license plate light
41 - brake lights
42 - right tail light/license light
43 - left directional light

My plan is to simply remove the stock wiring and run new wires from the appropriate pins, making a new and much smaller harness.

Are any of the grounds in the engine compartment ganged together? In my list above I omitted a few ground leads, e.g. for the control pressure regulator and diagnostic port; however, if those grounds are shared by anything else, I suppose I would want to keep them.

Thanks!

Farrar

No need to replace wires. Just come over and we can start yanking stuff out while in the shade.

[Farrar]

No need to replace wires. Just come over and we can start yanking stuff out while in the shade.

Oh, I'm not doing this just yet -- I still have to buy the necessary supplies. Besides, I don't want to piggyback this project which I can do myself onto the other work we'll be doing at your place -- I think we'll have our hands full with the evaporator and heater core replacement!

Farrar

[Farrar]

Hey Bill, how's the power steering project coming? I was just looking at Chad's '69 Ambassador for sale and was thinking of power steering, and it reminded me of your #5939 and #2508.

Also, I think you might need to buy that Ambassador -- to keep your other AMC company. :)

Farrar

[Kenny_Z]

Very cool modification thread. Nice to know that there are some interesting tinkering options on the Delorean. I'm still learning the ins and outs of this KJet so I won't be making the mod myself but I enjoy seeing ingenuity.

I have to disagree with the Ford over Delorean comment. Maybe I don't have enough experience with the D yet but that 66 Mustang I have was built to be a throw away car. The cowl area wasn't even rust protected from the factory until the second gens hit the roads. They were a hastily thrown together car to compete with Chevy and were not originally built for speed, luxury, or longevity. The thing is just a rebodied Falcon so there wasn't any real "designing" going on and the engine selections were taken straight from the other cars in the line. Don't get me wrong, I love that car but she wasn't quality, she was quantity. Parts for her restoration were cheap though :D

[content22207]

Mustangs have only been mentioned twice in this thread:
Post 59) Explains that our carb conversions basically make the PRV emulate a mid 1970's Mustang Cologne V6 (an owner in Georgia is even running Ford ignition on his in lieu of Bosch)
Post 66) Points out that the number of Mustangs alone (in addition to a host of other Ford/AMC/Jeep vehicles) still running Autolite/Motorcraft 2100/4100's is why that particular carburetor is much more familiar and supported in this country than K-Jet.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Kenny_Z]

Actually, I was referring to your post that Ford hasn't ever put out anything as bad as a Delorean. I believe they have and it was their most iconic car. I also believe that if Delorean had survived the next generation would have seen an improvement like the next gen Mustangs did. While the death of the company was unfortunate for those that lost their jobs it probably was a blessing for the automotive industry.

And I don't doubt that there's support for the 2100. I had many options for it when it was on my 66 but it was too restrictive and under-powered for my engine plans so I replaced it with a 4 barrel Holley.

[content22207]

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. I've been messing with vintage Fords for decades, yet the boys in Dearborn still continue to surprise me with inexplicable engineering. That said, even at Ford's most diabolical, DeLoreans as built are worse. They can be modified into reliable vehicles, but from the factory they were an unmitigated mess (let's be brutally honest: DeLoreans were the automotive equivalent of a school paper written the night before it is due).

Vintage Fords may not have been perfect, but they were popular. What that means is a ready supply of parts that are plentiful and cheap. It is comforting to know that if worse comes to worse while you're traveling, whatever has broken can be replaced at the nearest parts house.

If you wanted a 4 barrel, I would have gone with a 4100. Autolite/Motorcraft 2100/4100's have several advantages over Holleys:
1) single piece castings (Holleys are prone to leak at their gasketed mating surfaces)
2) simpler overall design (Holleys have lots of valves and diaphragms that do go bad)
3) smaller overall footprint
4) jets are mounted at the bottom of the bowls rather than on the sides (it is virtually impossible to expose the jets)

I am going to replace the Holley my latest school bus came with with a 4100. Tomorrow I will photograph them side by side for a comparison.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Kenny_Z]

The 2100 left such a bad taste in my mouth that I went with the Holley over the 4100. Amusingly enough my first repair job with the Stang (other than the extensive body damage caused by telephone pole contact) was a hard start issue caused by the 2100. Looking back at it the root of the problem was probably caused by a poor rebuild job by the previous owner. I think my 69 Ford truck has a 4100 sitting on its 390. I'll have to go look tomorrow, I haven't spent much time with that truck.

I do love the simplicity of 60s engineering. I once managed to get the Stang back on the road with some items from the hobby section of Walmart when she left me stranded (brake related).

My main problem with the Mustang is in the handling. I've got a 66 Nova and a 66 Mustang. The Nova, on her suspension's pre-restored state, could out-handle and ride better than the Stang in her completely restored state. The bump steer alone is unforgivable. Sometimes I can't believe people drove these things back in the 60s.

[content22207]

You should have swapped it for a refined (Motorcraft) 2100. Ford struggled with Automatic choke designs throughout the 1960's. In addition to problems inherent with hot air choke operation, there are a variety of pulloff permutations: vacuum operated piston attached to the choke mechanism, a row of bypass holes drilled into the choke plate itself, a spring working against manifold vacuum, etc. Autolite of course didn't have any such problems in its original design because the choke plate was manually operated (which is what many owners who stick with Autolites end up converting to).

There are two Motorcraft 2100 pulloffs, both of which work excellently: a diaphragm integrated into the upper casting (early 70's), and a separate pulloff that hangs off the back of the carb (late 70's).

Ford also went to electrically heated choke springs in the 1970's, which can be substituted for hot air springs on earlier models -- housings are the same size.

If your choke plate isn't working properly, the engine will always be difficult to start. Optimally, the choke plate (without any bypass holes) should snap fully closed when tension is taken off the throttle mechanism, then crack open ~1/8" as soon as the engine starts (and of course continue to open the rest of the way as the engine warms up).

Ford threw out the 4 barrel baby with its bathwater and designed the 4300/4350 from the ground up. It's a rather abortive piece of hardware -- many owners retrofit 4100's in its place, albeit with electric choke springs. Early 60's pistons seem to be preferred over other pulloff options.

The Variable Venturi was another abortive Ford design that fortuitously shares the same bolt pattern with 2100/2150's -- owners retrofit them as well.

And of course Jeeps owners are converting to 2100's in droves from their Carter BBD's.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

More 1960's Ford weirdness I forgot to mention: one of my 4100's has Holley size jets in it, not Autolite/Motorcraft jets (Holley jets have smaller threaded ends, so obviously it came from the factory that way -- wasn't retapped).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[The Aviator]

OK, I've printed out Dave Delman's diagrams and chosen which wires I need to keep in the engine compartment. Bill, can you double-check this list for me?

Here's what I think I need to keep:

3 - top right side of ignition coil ballast resistor
5 - to primary (-) of ignition coil
10-18 - the entire "red plug harness" since I have an automatic transmission
25 - oil pressure switch
26 - choke heater (formerly control pressure regulator)
28 - a/c compressor clutch
29 - coolant temperature gauge sender
30 - oil pressure gauge sender
31 - to alternator light
32 - to starter motor solenoid
34 - auto trans kickdown switch
35 - ground for both tail light assemblies
36 - reverse lights
37 - power to engine compartment light
38 - right directional light
39 - from engine compartment light to switch
40 - left tail light/license plate light
41 - brake lights
42 - right tail light/license light
43 - left directional light

My plan is to simply remove the stock wiring and run new wires from the appropriate pins, making a new and much smaller harness.

Are any of the grounds in the engine compartment ganged together? In my list above I omitted a few ground leads, e.g. for the control pressure regulator and diagnostic port; however, if those grounds are shared by anything else, I suppose I would want to keep them.

Thanks!

Farrar

exactly what i want to do! sorry i havent been around much guys, work has gone absolutely crazy... just came on here quickly to see if it still works

[Ashyukun]

35 - ground for both tail light assemblies
36 - reverse lights
38 - right directional light
40 - left tail light/license plate light
41 - brake lights
42 - right tail light/license light
43 - left directional light

My plan is to simply remove the stock wiring and run new wires from the appropriate pins, making a new and much smaller harness.


All of the wires above are in the same plug/harness for the rear lighting (black plug)- wouldn't it just make sense to leave that plug/harness intact instead of messing with running all new wiring back there? Unless the existing wiring is really messed up...

[content22207]

exactly what i want to do! sorry i havent been around much guys, work has gone absolutely crazy... just came on here quickly to see if it still works

Is a PM still waiting for you? (June 11)

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

All of the wires above are in the same plug/harness for the rear lighting (black plug)- wouldn't it just make sense to leave that plug/harness intact instead of messing with running all new wiring back there? Unless the existing wiring is really messed up...

I believe he decided not to run new wire. He was just trying to be fancy but you have to buy new wire in spools of 100 ft, so it would cost a small fortune to make a new harness.

[content22207]

As promised, Autolite 4100 versus 4 barrel Holley of some ilk:
2782 2781

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

I believe he decided not to run new wire. He was just trying to be fancy but you have to buy new wire in spools of 100 ft, so it would cost a small fortune to make a new harness.

This is correct. Sorry I didn't respond quicker; I've been on the road for a few days.

Farrar

[Ashyukun]

The cruise control system I'm installing is vacuum-powered, and as such needs to tap into a vacuum line somewhere. We don't have nearly as many running around as a K-Jet-fueled D does- where should I splice in the T for the cruise unit? I'm assuming there isn't an unused port that could just be uncovered and plugged into...

[opethmike]

The cruise control system I'm installing is vacuum-powered, and as such needs to tap into a vacuum line somewhere. We don't have nearly as many running around as a K-Jet-fueled D does- where should I splice in the T for the cruise unit? I'm assuming there isn't an unused port that could just be uncovered and plugged into...

Perhaps a plastic vacuum tee, and tap into an existing manifold vacuum line?

[content22207]

You've got an unused 1/8 NPT port with a brass pipe plug in it right next to the vacuum barb going to your HVAC and brake booster.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

You've got an unused 1/8 NPT port with a brass pipe plug in it right next to the vacuum barb going to your HVAC and brake booster.

Bill Robertson
#5939
That's good to know! What kind of driver to I need to get it out? I can't tell with it in the car whether it's a hex or a square drive. Is it possible to remove it without pulling the carb? What kind of store would have the hose barb I'd need locally?

[content22207]

Pull the carb off. It's only held down by four nuts.

The vacuum ports are in the adapter block between the manifold and the carb. Studs are in the manifold itself -- the adapter block just slides on them.

It'll be a lot easier to remove that plug and spin a barb in with the adapter block off the car.

Threads are standard 1/8 NPT. Lowes should have a brass 1/8 NPT to hose barb fitting in whatever hose diameter you need (they may not have 3/16").

Bill Robertson
#5939

[DMCMW Dave]

The cruise control system I'm installing is vacuum-powered, and as such needs to tap into a vacuum line somewhere. We don't have nearly as many running around as a K-Jet-fueled D does- where should I splice in the T for the cruise unit? I'm assuming there isn't an unused port that could just be uncovered and plugged into...

If you are mounting the cruise unit inside the car, there is a perfectly good vacuum line that goes to the Mode Switch right through the ECU compartment behind the driver seat. Otherwise in the engine compartment, T-tap into whatever you are pulling that one from (Since I presume you don't have the stock intake anymore).

[content22207]

In a stock configuration that line is hard plastic -- not readily amenable to splicing into.

Cruise buckets typically mount in the engine compartment anyway, about 2 feet max from the throttle linkage.

HVAC & brake booster vacuum line is 3/8" -- if his cruise control uses a different size hose, he will need an adapter tee (difficult to source over the counter) to tap into that line. Why create a Rube Goldberg collection of vacuum tees anyway when he has a perfectly good vacuum port sitting unused in his adapter plate that can give the cruise bucket its own dedicated barb.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

The cruise unit included a number of adapter tees including for larger size lines since it is a nearly universal unit (Audiovox CCS-100), however they do (understandably) strongly discourage you from tapping the brake booster line.

Ideally, I'll have the time to pull the carb and put in the new hose barb. Unfortunately, time is not something I have in spades at the moment- I'm leaving on Sunday to drive back East, and ideally want to drive the D.

If I get the car back from the exhaust shop this evening I may have a shot at it, but if it's not until after work tomorrow that I get it back, I'll only have that evening and part of Saturday to get everything done as I want to have everything done mid-afternoon Saturday so I can test everything out and make sure nothing goes wrong on a medium-distance (60 miles) drive before heading off on a 650-mile drive.

That said- if I don't have the time to pull the carb and do it right, which line would be best to tap temporarily?

[Bitsyncmaster]

That hard plastic line is easy to tap or fix. Cut it with a hacksaw fine tooth blade and stick vacuum hoses over the ends. Then find a plastic T for vacuum lines to tap into those hoses you just installed.

[Farrar]

Audiovox CCS-100

Good luck with this -- I never managed to get mine working. If you have more success than I did, please let me know how you managed.

Farrar

[DMCMW Dave]

Good luck with this -- I never managed to get mine working. If you have more success than I did, please let me know how you managed.

Farrar

I've installed a number of them without issue. They were discontinued last year though.

[Farrar]

I've installed a number of them without issue.

I'd really like to know how.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

I still think this is the best cruise control unit that money can buy:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TeraFlex-Hand-Throttle-Jeep-TJ-LJ-XJ-YJ-CJ-4870400-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53e09a0d39QQitemZ36025 0477881QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

[DMCMW Dave]

I'd really like to know how.
Farrar

What problem did you have? We put magnets on the inner CV joint, mounted the controller on the kneepad, the brain box inside the car behind the carpeted panel, etc. When it's done you see the controller and a cable in the back, everything else is hidden.

It's a long install for what it is, but I don't recall much in the way of problems.

Of course I wasn't trying to get it to pull on a carburetor, so your linkage may be a bit different.

[Farrar]

I wasn't trying to get it to pull on a carburetor, so your linkage may be a bit different.

Mine pulled on the linkage ... and pulled and pulled and pulled ... until I disconnected the power. I assume it's an electrical problem, so I was curious what you hooked up to where.

Farrar

[content22207]

That hard plastic line is easy to tap or fix. Cut it with a hacksaw fine tooth blade and stick vacuum hoses over the ends. Then find a plastic T for vacuum lines to tap into those hoses you just installed.

Good grief -- wouldn't a proper brass hose barb in a vacuum port specifically intended for such be much cleaner, neater, and professional?

How long does it take to unscrew a pipe plug and screw in a hose barb anyway? 2 or 3 minutes perhaps?

Even if Bob were to tap into his HVAC line in the ECU compartment, he'd still have to run the cruise line back out to the engine compartment. Why not pull its vacuum in the engine compartment to begin with?

I put those vacuum ports in the adapter plate for a reason. Aversion to using them for their intended purpose, especially in favor of arguably convoluted alternatives, does perplex me.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

Mine pulled on the linkage ... and pulled and pulled and pulled ... until I disconnected the power. I assume it's an electrical problem, so I was curious what you hooked up to where.

Farrar
Interesting... I didn't know someone had tried putting one on a carbed D before. I do have to admit to being a bit worried about the servo being strong enough to overcome the fairly hefty return spring I have.

Like Dave said, I put the magnets (two of them- our cars are closest to FWD in the 'driveshaft' setup, so I followed the FWD instructions) on the inboard CV joint with the bracket bolted to a nearby bolt. I've currently got the servo mounted next to my fuel filter, which is located on the cover Bill made to replace the vacuum canister cover at the back of the driver's side of the bay.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to finish hooking it up in time though... but it IS a high priority- having cruise on a 650 mile drive would make it a LOT easier on me than not having it- I'll readily pass on putting in the new sunshades to finish the cruise install. Frankly, it's looking like it'll be a small miracle if I'm going to be able to take the D- and if I do, there's a high chance it will be sans muffler with just a straight pipe from the cat out past the back of the fascia. -_-

However- unless someone has another suggestion as to where to find 1/8 NPT hose barbs, I'll at least temporarily have to tap into another line. Neither Lowes, Home Depot, or Autozone had 1/8 NPT hose barbs.

[DMCMW Dave]

Mine pulled on the linkage ... and pulled and pulled and pulled ... until I disconnected the power. I assume it's an electrical problem, so I was curious what you hooked up to where.

Farrar

It's been quite a while since we put one in but it's safe to assume I followed the wiring instructions that came with it. It sounds like it wasn't seeing the magnets or the engine RPM Signal and tried to speed things up. There are also a series of DIP switches on the unit that you have to set correctly.

PS to answer Bill's rant, since I install the unit inside the car it made sense to me to use a vacuum line already inside the car instead of running another one all the way back to the engine. That way I added about 8 inches of hose to the car, which to me was much neater.

[content22207]

Not a rant -- just genuine dumbfoundedness that people have the audacity to criticize my car as a FrankenDeLoren, then advise Bob not to use a vacuum barb that is expressly designed and provided for such purpose.

#5939 may not be much, but it does at least have vacuum barbs in all the right places.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

It sounds like it wasn't seeing the magnets or the engine RPM Signal and tried to speed things up.

Yes, I thought that was odd, since I had just started the engine and hadn't turned the unit on yet (or so I thought).

Oh, well -- I'm probably going to try a different unit eventually using the magnets and sensor that came with the Audiovox unit.

Thanks anyway.

Back to more Bill stuff...

Farrar

[Ashyukun]

Yes, I thought that was odd, since I had just started the engine and hadn't turned the unit on yet (or so I thought).

Oh, well -- I'm probably going to try a different unit eventually using the magnets and sensor that came with the Audiovox unit.

That does sound odd... especially if you hadn't turned on the control for it yet... I would think it wouldn't even try and do anything until you hit 'On' and then pressed 'Set'... I wonder if the control unit was wired in incorrectly? (seems kind of hard since the connectors are color-keyed as to which wires go in which spot...) Or perhaps the 'normally open' and 'normally closed' (or something to that effect...) DIP switch was set backwards- that's the one switch that the instructions really say nothing useful about.

For us carb-runners, the RPM signal should be a piece of cake- the wire for it comes with a spade connector that I just plugged right into the otherwise unused connector with the white/slate wire on from the removed ECU box. The power-on-when-key-is-on line is going to the tap off the aux relay that runs my electric choke, though I could put a spade on it and plug it into the power at the unused ECU connector instead. The two paired wires go to the magnetic pickup. There's the wires for the brake connection, which look like they'll be the only ones I have to extend out. The control box connection uses a standard (pre-SATA) computer power connector, so even though I likely need more wire there I have extension cables from my vast supply of computer cables that I'll use for that purpose. The wiring actually surprised me with how simple it is... my main concern is that I have the magnetic pickup close enough to the magnets to generate the pulses it needs and that the servo is powerful enough to pull on the throttle...

With luck, I'll be testing it out on Saturday... if not, it'll be a few weeks (though if I don't finish it but drive the D, I may try and get it working while there...)

[stevedmc]

One of my injector clips has been broken for a while now and my cheap/forgetful self hasn't gotten around to replacing it yet.

Today I was doing some creative driving on the way to work and decided i would coast a little with the engine off, and only start the engine as needed. I was going to play a game and see what sort of gas mileage I could get doing the coast and drive method. I have done this on my Geo Metro before and have gotten as high as 67 mpg.

Well, upon starting the engine back up, the engine back-fired, and my poortly clipped injector plug flew out and is now somewhere on the highway. I couldn't find thing on the road or in the intake valley so I put a penny over the injector hole and was able to limp to work.

Upon getting to work I discovered a nickel is a perfect fit for the hole. I am thinking about plugging the hole with a nickel and some JB weld for a semi permanent plug. Has anyone done this before? If I can make it look good I might go ahead and do the rest of the plugs as well.

[Farrar]

I have a whole cup full of silicone plugs at my apartment. Just stop by and I will give you six of them.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

Do they need to be clipped in?

I would be more than happy to come by after work and take some springs off your hands too if you'll be home.

[Farrar]

Do they need to be clipped in?

No, they're held in by tension. You can remove them, if needed, with a little bit of effort.

Give me a shout. I'm done with work at 7:00 tonight.

Farrar

[Ashyukun]

So, interesting fact I learned today: a piece of 2" pipe bent properly to go from the output of the cat out through the muffler exit on the driver's side is nowhere NEAR as loud as I expected. And because of this- and the fact it's impossible to get the new exhaust on and finish everything else up and test it all out- I'll be heading out East with just that straight pipe and no muffler. I have my suspicions that my cat is hollow and is partially acting like a muffler anyway. :P

Since I've been completely unable to find a 1/8" NPT hose barb locally and can't get one in from elsewhere fast enough, I think I'm going to tee the cruise control vacuum off the spark advance line. It's closest to the cruise unit, and is also the closest in size to the line that goes to the cruise unit.

[Farrar]

You don't want ported vacuum for the cruise bucket; you want manifold vacuum. Put a T in your brake booster or HVAC vacuum line instead.

Farrar

[Ashyukun]

You don't want ported vacuum for the cruise bucket; you want manifold vacuum. Put a T in your brake booster or HVAC vacuum line instead.

Farrar

Hmmm. I'm kind of loathe to T into the brake booster line, especially since the cruise installation expressly warns not to. Not that I don't think I could stop the car if the cruise sapped all the vacuum boost to the brakes mind you, but still. How about the crankcase vent/PCV connection? Is that manifold or ported vacuum? I could T into that between the carb and the valve.

Here's where the cruise bucket is mounted in my setup (doesn't matter for this since vacuum line is cheap, but I took the picture, so :P)
2883

Also, for a laugh:
The finest "performance" exhaust system $50 will buy. :P
28812882

[content22207]

I find it hard to believe that nobody in a big city like Lexington sells barbed hose fittings.

You all are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

(BTW: I am talking about the port that Farrar and Garen use for their modulator valves -- for 5 speed users that port is just lying fallow).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

I find it hard to believe that nobody in a big city like Lexington sells barbed hose fittings.

Oh, I can find no shortage of barbed hose fittings- in sizes larger than 1/8" NPT. Nobody has anything more than a plug or a coupler in 1/8". Home Depot literally has like 3 1/8" NPT items. I'm going to check with some specialty plumbing places today in hopes they'll have one, but I don't know how many will be open. It's just not that common of a part it seems for most places to think it profitable to stock them...

[content22207]

1/8 is not an uncommon size. Your PCV valve came with 1/8 threads. Your carburetor uses 1/8 fittings (the 4100 I just installed on a school bus has threads on its ported barb as well as the fuel inlet). Your fuel filter bracket was made with 1/8 fittings. The stock thermostat housing bleeder is 1/8 BSPT (threads are so short that 1/8 NPT will work). Generic electric fuel pumps come with 1/8 threads (you could buy a spare pump and use one of the barbs that comes with it, albeit 5/16 hose most likely). Etc.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

Try your basic hardware stores or NAPA. But like Bill said....I can find them in Lowes and other home stores.

[Farrar]

Hmmm. I'm kind of loathe to T into the brake booster line, especially since the cruise installation expressly warns not to.

If the instructions forbid it, then by all means ignore what I said! I obviously remembered incorrectly.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?915-Carbs-for-a-PRV

That thread got closed pretty dang quick.

[content22207]

This thread really is the best place for him to find carburetion specific info. Apparently the OP did not know it even exists -- Sean could have included an explanatory sentence to that effect.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Byrne H&A]

Hello Martin,
We have made two conversions to carburetor fuel delivery and offer all or part of the complete K-Jet systems from fuel pump to injectors including ECUs. Reasonable offers accepted. Thanks, Byrne

[content22207]

For clarity: Byrne is counting the number of conversions he has done himself, not the total number of carbureted DeLoreans altogether (there are more than 2 carbureted DeLoreans in existence, including apparently this one in Florida that neither Byrne nor I had anything to do with: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?906-what-IS-behind-the-seats&p=9439&viewfull=1#post9439).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

For clarity: Byrne is counting the number of conversions he has done himself, not the total number of carbureted DeLoreans altogether (there are more than 2 carbureted DeLoreans in existence, including apparently this one in Florida that neither Byrne nor I had anything to do with: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?906-what-IS-behind-the-seats&p=9439&viewfull=1#post9439).

Bill Robertson
#5939

I believe there is one on youtube as well that had nothing to do with Bill or Byrne. Apparently more people seem to understand carburetors than just Bill and a few of us other people.

My guess is, with a proper manifold, anyone with a little carburetor knowledge could convert one of these cars to carburetion.

[content22207]

With a suitable intake manifold, you can put one or more carburetors on any gasoline engine (yes, I know the same can be said for MegaSquirt...).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

I know the same can be said for MegaSquirt...)

True, but we don't need any special software or computers to make ours work. The hardest part of installation for us is the 5 minutes it takes to run a new fuel.

[content22207]

If fuel delivery from the physical properties of air pressure alone is important to an owner, then carburetion is indeed be an option that owner may want to consider.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

Well, after a lot of calling around, I finally found that an Ace Hardware across town actually had 1/8" NPT hose barbs, and drove over and picked up two (yes, I only need one- but they're cheap). Unfortunately, my road test with the cruise unit was unsuccessful, and everything I've checked so far has worked as it should. The most likely culprit now is that the magnet sensor isn't close enough to the magnets to pick them up- something I'll attempt to rectify in the morning.

However... that's about the only negative at the moment- and something that was new and not essential for the car to be able to travel. Everything else necessary for me to leave in the morning to drive the car from here in Lexington to north of Philly is done, and I took my girlfriend out to dinner half an hour away ("You know, most people don't go LOOKING for places to eat that require a bit of driving..." :P) to make sure everything behaved on the highway, and got an unexpected good test of the coolant system when we got stuck in a traffic jam for 20 minutes (in 90-degree ambient).

All that has to be done in the morning is to finish loading the car back up and to rinse it off again- I washed it in a real hurry this afternoon, and got a bit liberal with the BKF- and I get enough bad cocaine jokes as it is without having the car actually covered in white powder.... :P

[Ashyukun]

The Good:
The cruise control works.
I'm safely in my hotel room in PA.

The Bad:
I got here some 3 hours later than I should have after the car died at the end of a construction zone, leading to my replacing the fuel pump and running a new fuel line... and still not being convinced they were the problem. But, after that it didn't have any fuel problems and didn't die... though I now get to track down more 1/8" NPT fittings HERE because I couldnt get everything off the old pump (which I am saving, as I think it's actually fine...) but thankfully was able to rig something up with what came with the new pump.
My evaporator drain plug clogged, flooding the passenger carpet (again). Not critical, but damn annoying (and smelly)
For some reason all my accessory lights are behving weird- if working at all. Wish I still had the instructions for Dave's solid-state dimmer, though I think this goes beyond that...
My iPhone crashed some 50 miles after getting the car going again... Thankfully I'm old-school enough to carry an atlas in my cars since it was my gps too.

The Best:
This day is now over and nothing ELSE can go wrong (until tomorrow)

[content22207]

Are you sure your RPM relay didn't fail? I've had real bad luck running them more than 9-10 hours straight.

Pull the fuel line off the carb, let it hang down into a container of choice (motel ice bucket), then jump the pump. Flow is about the same as a garden hose barely cracked open -- fuel is not going to shoot out everywhere. If gas comes out, your pump is fine.

You can draw through a stationary fuel pump no problem -- install barbs and electrical terminals on your spare pump in advance so it can be spliced in right behind the original pump if necessary (just let it lay on top of the tank).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

Since the problems I had earlier this year with the fuel, I've been running a jumper that has the pump running whenever the key is on 'run'. Ironically after things on this trip I'm faintly convinced that it's not the RPM relay at all. I may put it back in so I don't have to worry as much about having the key on.

Frankly, I'm not even convinced that it was the pump OR the fuel line... After I'd replaced both, I was still not seeing fuel flow. I finally pulled the line off the carb itself and put it in a water bottle and fired up the pump, and then it started flowing properly. Before then, it was behaving like the line was getting pressurized but nothing would flow. It's behaving now, but it still makes me nervous... Whenever the compressor for the A/C would kick on and there'd be a hiccup in the engine's power my heart would skip a beat.

[Farrar]

Hey Bill, now that I've disconnected and removed the K-Jet wiring in the engine compartment, I plan on removing the Lambda box as well, but I can't tell where that light blue wire goes. Is it accessible for removal or should I just coil it up out of the way somewhere? I thought I'd ask since you've already done this on your car.

Trying to make as much room as I can for new 6AWG ground cables. :)

Thanks!

Farrar

[stevedmc]

Frankly, I'm not even convinced that it was the pump OR the fuel line... After I'd replaced both, I was still not seeing fuel flow.

Maybe I am missing something but did you replace the fuel filter? Its a $3 part at Autozone.

As far as the AC cycling and your engine loosing power, just bump up your idle during the summer. Simply turn on your AC and adjust your idle to about 900 with the compressor running. It will idle a little high when you aren't using the AC but where I live the AC is always on during the summer.

Once this summer heat is gone you can turn off the AC and adjust your idle for the winter. This is my strategy and it has been working fine.

[Ashyukun]

Maybe I am missing something but did you replace the fuel filter? Its a $3 part at Autozone.

As far as the AC cycling and your engine loosing power, just bump up your idle during the summer. Simply turn on your AC and adjust your idle to about 900 with the compressor running. It will idle a little high when you aren't using the AC but where I live the AC is always on during the summer.

Once this summer heat is gone you can turn off the AC and adjust your idle for the winter. This is my strategy and it has been working fine.

I replaced the fuel filter after the incident a few months back with a clear plastic one so I can see when there's fuel flowing and when not (what I really want is a flow sensor so I could set up a warning light in the cabin).

It's not that the A/C was causing idling problems, it's that when it kicks on you can feel it- and it feels somewhat like the carb starting to be starved of fuel...

[content22207]

A carb running dry is a very distinctive feeling. The engine does not stop instantaneously -- it shudders & stumbles for a few seconds, and sometimes even detonates as the mixture gets leaner & leaner. If your engine stops instantly, like flipping off a switch, the problem may well be ignition.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

A carb running dry is a very distinctive feeling. The engine does not stop instantaneously -- it shudders & stumbles for a few seconds, and sometimes even detonates as the mixture gets leaner & leaner. If your engine stops instantly, like flipping off a switch, the problem may well be ignition.

Bill Robertson
#5939
I know- exactly why the A/C compressor kicking on was making me nervous- it felt like the engine starting to stumble as the carb ran dry, in other words the first sign that something might be wrong, and that I might need to be looking out for a safe place to get off the road very shortly.

It handled the drive up from Quakertown to Lehigh Mall to get my phone fixed without any problems including getting stuck in traffic. I also now know that the pump and the line should be good, so I know to focus on the stuff in the engine bay if I have problems again... which hopefully I won't.

There's a few hardware stores near the mall too, so I can track down the 1/8" NPT coupler that I need and some plastic tubing and potentially even stop by Harbor Freight to pick up a rotary tool to do some fixes for the annoying A/C water problem.

[content22207]

For what purpose is the tubing intended? Not all plastics can handle gasoline (or even worse -- gasohol).

If your engine ever stops again, and you suspect fuel delivery, pop the top off the carb *BEFORE* re-energizing the pump (you want to see what was in the bowl at the time it stopped). That is how I recently diagnosed a damaged pickup tube in one of my church's school buses. Drivers were reporting problems, but as soon as the fuel stopped sloshing around they were able to restart the bus and bring it back. I had to catch it red handed on the side of the road *BEFORE* the engine was restarted (bowl was totally dry, but as soon as the pump was re-energized fuel refilled it normally).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

For what purpose is the tubing intended? Not all plastics can handle gasoline (or even worse -- gasohol).

The tubing is to run a drain tube for the evaporator, so (hopefully) it just has to deal with water...

[content22207]

When you were stuck in traffic, was your car in an elevated curve? The tube that is supposed to cool the blower motor, but which usually just carries condensed water to it and rusts the bearings, will flood the passenger footwell if the driver's side of the car is elevated for too long. I rerouted mine to the outside world. It's a stupid idea anyway -- none of my other cars have hoses going from the heater/evaporator boxes to their blower motors (which is probably why the bearings in my other cars' blower motors haven't rusted).

I am assuming you already have the coil boot mod on the driver's side drain:
2928

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ashyukun]

It's the driver's side drain that clogged and I'm working to fix. I'm planning on routing the hose from the drain there down to a new hole I plan to drill in the passenger's footwell- that way even if it does clog again, there will also be a way for water to get out of the footwell and it won't just pool there like it has when this has happened before...

I also plan to pull the fuel pump and install it in the boot 'properly' after work, since I now have the coupler I was missing on the road.

[Bitsyncmaster]

It's the driver's side drain that clogged and I'm working to fix. I'm planning on routing the hose from the drain there down to a new hole I plan to drill in the passenger's footwell- that way even if it does clog again, there will also be a way for water to get out of the footwell and it won't just pool there like it has when this has happened before...

I also plan to pull the fuel pump and install it in the boot 'properly' after work, since I now have the coupler I was missing on the road.

I did the new hole drain thing and love it. If I run the AC for 5 minutes in humid air I will get a very large puddle of water on the floor.

[Farrar]

Wait -- there are drains on both sides? I have never noticed this. And chances are that by the time I have working a/c both of those will be clogged so I will have to fix them. Can anyone illustrate or tell me exactly where they are, please?

Farrar

[Bitsyncmaster]

Wait -- there are drains on both sides? I have never noticed this. And chances are that by the time I have working a/c both of those will be clogged so I will have to fix them. Can anyone illustrate or tell me exactly where they are, please?

Farrar

There is only one stock AC drain.

[Farrar]

There is only one stock AC drain.

OK, thanks.

Farrar

[content22207]

There are two holes in the evaporator box. The hole closest to the driver is the condensation drain. The hole closest to the passenger is supposed to blow air on the blower motor. The air hole is raised slightly above the drain hole, which will keep water from running out of it as long as the vehicle is level side to side, but I have discovered that when the vehicle is tilted towards the passenger side condensed water will in fact run out of it as well (eventually causing the blower motor bearings to rust). I'm sure the air hose seemed like a good idea on paper, but in actual practice it doesn't as well as planned. How many other vehicles have you seen with an air hose to the blower motor anyway? My blower motor bearings used to squeal, but they haven't raised a peep since I rerouted that hose to the outside world (I PB'd the mess out of the bearings, then packed them with lithium).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Bitsyncmaster]

There are two holes in the evaporator box. The hole closest to the driver is the condensation drain. The hole closest to the passenger is supposed to blow air on the blower motor. The air hole is raised slightly above the drain hole, which will keep water from running out of it as long as the vehicle is level side to side, but I have discovered that when the vehicle is tilted towards the passenger side condensed water will in fact run out of it as well (eventually causing the blower motor bearings to rust). I'm sure the air hose seemed like a good idea on paper, but in actual practice it doesn't as well as planned. How many other vehicles have you seen with an air hose to the blower motor anyway? My blower motor bearings used to squeal, but they haven't raised a peep since I rerouted that hose to the outside world (I PB'd the mess out of the bearings, then packed them with lithium).

Bill Robertson
#5939

You have a condensation drain on the drivers side? Mine does not. So where did the stock drain hose run up the frame on the drivers side?

[content22207]

Driver's side of the box, the side of the box closest to the driver.

My condensation drain has the coil boot mod, which is less likely to clog than the OEM hose & elbow, and which is easily removed for cleaning if necessary (it's rubber, so squishy).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[ramblinmike]

You have a condensation drain on the drivers side? Mine does not. So where did the stock drain hose run up the frame on the drivers side?

There is only one drain. The hole on the passenger side of the box is right next to the blower motor and is meant to cool the motor while it runs. You should have an 'L'-shaped tube from this hole to the side of the blower motor.

[Bitsyncmaster]

There is only one drain. The hole on the passenger side of the box is right next to the blower motor and is meant to cool the motor while it runs. You should have an 'L'-shaped tube from this hole to the side of the blower motor.

So where is your drain located?

[ramblinmike]

So where is your drain located?

Passenger side of the console. You can see it by pulling the carpet back in the passenger side of the car under the center part of the dash. Bill has a pic of the drain in an earlier post. I did the coil-boot mod he was talking about last summer. I can go outside with my camera and take a pic if you need me to. (I'm w/my kid at the moment and the garage isn't an option right now...)

[ramblinmike]

I'm sure the air hose seemed like a good idea on paper, but in actual practice it doesn't as well as planned.

It wasn't planned by DMC. In it's original intended application on GM cars, that blower motor faces down instead of up like on the D. The blower is mounted on top of the A/C box and would never be anywhere near water.

[content22207]

I bet the combined effects of clogged condensation drains and water sloshing towards the passenger side of the car have led to a disproportionate number of premature blower motor failures.

Note also that a clogged windshield plenum drain will cause rainwater to fill the evaporator box (through the fresh air door).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

It wasn't planned by DMC. In it's original intended application on GM cars, that blower motor faces down instead of up like on the D. The blower is mounted on top of the A/C box and would never be anywhere near water.

Well at least we have something to be thankful for on these cars. It would be a total pain to replace the part if it was mounted with the motor facing down. At least my lifetime warranty part can be replaced in a matter of minutes when it does decide to quit working.

[ramblinmike]

Well at least we have something to be thankful for on these cars. It would be a total pain to replace the part if it was mounted with the motor facing down. At least my lifetime warranty part can be replaced in a matter of minutes when it does decide to quit working.

...yeah but on the GM application it is under the hood on top. Literally nothing in the way!

[Farrar]

Bill, did you install a heater core bypass or am I thinking of someone else's car?

Thanks,
Farrar

[content22207]

No bypass -- my heater core is very much active (that is where my radiator bleeds to, rather than the lower radiator pipe, which has been replaced with a length of hose, making it *SO* much easier to install than that stupid factory pipe with the bleeder nipple, which apparently doesn't work worth a damn because people are having to pull their bleeder hoses off their radiators to bleed them manually, or buy a collection of plumbing fittings to rig up a manual valve, still necessitating laying down in front of the car, both of which could be so easily avoided by simply putting a tee one of the heater core lines and letting the radiator bleed itself automatically).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[ramblinmike]

No bypass -- my heater core is very much active (that is where my radiator bleeds to, rather than the lower radiator pipe, which has been replaced with a length of hose, making it *SO* much easier to install than that stupid factory pipe with the bleeder nipple, which apparently doesn't work worth a damn because people are having to pull their bleeder hoses off their radiators to bleed them manually, or buy a collection of plumbing fittings to rig up a manual valve, still necessitating laying down in front of the car, both of which could be so easily avoided by simply putting a tee one of the heater core lines and letting the radiator bleed itself automatically).

Bill Robertson
#5939

Man, that is a good idea.

[content22207]

2967

Bill Robertson
#5939

[ramblinmike]

Does it matter which heater core line? I'd think the return line would be the way to go.

[content22207]

I used the line that was most accessible, which probably was the input since I sometimes hear the heater core burble & gurgle for a few seconds when the car is started after a system refill.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

OK, thanks for the info. I am considering removing my heater core and modifying the HVAC switch to run the compressor with the defogger in lieu of the normal defogger. The question currently in my mind is whether to simply bypass the heater core with a hose coupler or remove the heater system altogether. Gonna have to do more research.

Farrar

[content22207]

If we had more room under the hood you could simply put a manual shutoff valve on the heater core line, just like a school bus.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

If we had more room under the hood you could simply put a manual shutoff valve on the heater core line, just like a school bus.

Actually, I was thinking of how to do this and test my leaky-heater-core-windshield-fog theory, but can't figure out how to implement it.

Farrar

[content22207]

You can bypass a heater core with a piece of hose. People do it all the time. You lose your heat, but at least you can see through the windshield (the "fog" -- it's more of a slime really -- only shows up when it's cold outside).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

(the "fog" -- it's more of a slime really -- only shows up when it's cold outside).

Nope -- ALL of my interior windows fog up when the car is parked in HEAT.

Farrar

[content22207]

Sounds like outgassing from Armorall.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[stevedmc]

RainEx makes a product that is supposed to keep inside glass from fogging up. Perhaps this would help Farrar.

I bought some at Autozpne the other day but haven't gotten around to trying it yet.

[sean]

Sounds like outgassing from Armorall.

Bill Robertson
#5939

+1, I suggested that earlier and hope that isnt his problem b/c it can be a real pain to fix if there is a substantial layer of funk on the glass.

[Farrar]

Seems to be two schools of thought on my foggy glass (not just the windshield now). Going with the outgassing theory, I bought some of that Meguiar's "deep cleaning" vinyl cleaner yesterday at O'Reilly's. The bottle says "restores original appearance" as opposed to most other products that say "brilliant shine" or some such; unfortunately, I couldn't get a shady spot to work in and it was so hot outside yesterday that after about a half hour working on the car I felt sick, so I had to call it quits. I will try the Meguiar's this evening when it should be cooler, and let y'all know how it works.

Farrar

[stevedmc]

Seems to be two schools of thought on my foggy glass (not just the windshield now). Going with the outgassing theory, I bought some of that Meguiar's "deep cleaning" vinyl cleaner yesterday at O'Reilly's. The bottle says "restores original appearance" as opposed to most other products that say "brilliant shine" or some such; unfortunately, I couldn't get a shady spot to work in and it was so hot outside yesterday that after about a half hour working on the car I felt sick, so I had to call it quits. I will try the Meguiar's this evening when it should be cooler, and let y'all know how it works.

Farrar

You will have the oportunity to really go to town on it when we remove your dash saturday. Shoot, if the dash would hold up you could even pressure wash the thing (joking).

[Farrar]

You will have the oportunity to really go to town on it when we remove your dash saturday. Shoot, if the dash would hold up you could even pressure wash the thing (joking).

I have actually had the urge to simply remove the accursed thing and re-wrap it with NEW black vinyl that matches the kneepads -- I bought several yards of the material when it was on sale at a local fabric store a little while back. The only problem is, with all that grease on the original dashboard, NOTHING will stick to it! :angry_whip:

Farrar

[stevedmc]

I have actually had the urge to simply remove the accursed thing and re-wrap it with NEW black vinyl that matches the kneepads -- I bought several yards of the material when it was on sale at a local fabric store a little while back. The only problem is, with all that grease on the original dashboard, NOTHING will stick to it! :angry_whip:

Farrar

Have you considered sanding the dashboard to get fabric to stick to it?

[Farrar]

Have you considered sanding the dashboard to get fabric to stick to it?

I'd have to peel the old vinyl off first, and I am not sure if the original material is that durable. With my luck, I'd break the dashboard and have to save my pennies for months to buy one of Houston's plastic replacements... and in the meantime drive around with no dashboard. :P

Farrar

[sean]

Try covering the interior bits with some towels and see if that helps for a day.

[Farrar]

Try covering the interior bits with some towels and see if that helps for a day.

That's a good thought -- the towels should absorb the grease... Thanks!

Farrar

[sean]

That's a good thought -- the towels should absorb the grease... Thanks!

Farrar

That and it should trap the vapor so you can smell it afterward to see if its just moisture/condensation or interior treatment.

[Farrar]

That and it should trap the vapor so you can smell it afterward to see if its just moisture/condensation or interior treatment.

Oh, that reminds me -- I have a giant desiccant (Damp-Rid) pack hanging inside the car which has absorbed a great lot of water vapor over the last week or so. Not sure if I mentioned that earlier.

Thanks, Sean. I owe you a beverage. :)

Farrar

[sean]

thanks, sean. I owe you a beverage. :)

farrar

dcs12!

[Farrar]

dcs12!

Exactly, I'll see you there.

Do they have Guinness at DCS? :lol:

Farrar

[A Van]

A clean with a scourer as washing up liquid, followed by a respect ought to sort it

[content22207]

I am starting to receive PM inquiries that indicate a general "theory of carburetion" post would be appropriate (there's one on the old site, but those archives are slow to migrate over here):

To combust properly in the cylinders, gasoline and air must be mixed in appropriate quantities. The gasoline also needs to be atomized into fine droplets -- liquid gasoline does not combust very well.

For purposes of this post, "carburetor" refers to the Autolite/Motorcraft 2100/2150 2 barrel carburetor in particular.

A carburetor uses air flow into the engine to draw the proper amount of gasoline into the air stream and atomize it. That is the only thing the driver controls -- air flow into the engine (via the throttle plates). Gasoline delivery is automatic, using physical properties of fluid dynamics alone.

As air flows into the engine, it passes through restrictions known as venturis. The venturis are shaped like a section of garden hose pinched between your fingers (the pinch is 360 degrees around). As air passes through the venturis, it speeds up, reducing its pressure in the process -- air inside the venturis has lower pressure than air around any other part of the carburetor.

The venturis are connected to a small supply of gasoline in a little tank known as the bowl. Because air around the bowl has higher pressure than air in the venturis, gasoline is pushed from the bowl to the venturis. Small holes in the venturis atomize the gasoline as it leaves them and enters the air steam into the engine.

Opening the throttle plates increases air flow into the engine, further reducing air pressure in the venturis. As the pressure differential between the venturis and the bowl increases, increased amounts of gasoline are pushed into them. The converse happens when the throttle plates are closed. This is how a carburetor meters fuel for varying amounts of throttle (varying amounts of air).

The amount of fuel that leaves the bowl to the venturis is metered by holes known as "jets." Smaller jets allow less fuel to leave the bowl than larger jets do. To change overall air/fuel ratios, the jets are physically removed and replaced with different sizes.

That is the essence of carburetion.

The addition of a choke plate before the throttle plates allows more fuel to be drafted for any given amount of throttle plate opening. The choke plate restricts air flow into the engine. Because the size of the combustion chambers is unchanged, the volume of air drawn into them is the same, but reduced flow permitted by the choke plate causes that air to have lower pressure than it would have otherwise. Lower pressure than otherwise in the venturis leads to more gasoline than otherwise being pushed into the air stream. When the choke plate is mostly closed, gasoline flow through the venturis is at its richest. As the choke plate opens, gasoline flow through the venturis (relative to air flow metered by by the throttle plates) leans out. When the choke plate is fully open, gasoline flow through the venturis is at its leanest.

On a 2100, choke plate movement is typically automated. Early models used exhaust temperature to heat up a spring attached to the choke plate, gradually opening it. Later models passed electricity through the spring to heat it.

Because gasoline is heavier than air, rapid increases in air flow into the engine will cause the air/fuel mixture to go lean (gasoline being pushed out of the bowl takes longer to catch up to the air). To compensate, there is a little pump attached to the throttle mechanism. Small amounts of throttle movement will inject small amounts of fuel from this pump into the air stream. Large amounts of throttle movement will inject large amounts of fuel from this pump into the air stream. The pump only activates one time for each throttle plate movement.

And that is pretty much it. A carburetor uses air flow into the engine alone to meter its fuel. As long as there is fuel in the bowl, and as long as all air being drawn into the engine passes through the venturis, you will have appropriate fuel delivery.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

I am starting to receive PM inquiries that indicate a general "theory of carburetion" post would be appropriate

Would you like for me to post that document I typed up?

Farrar

[content22207]

Information is good.

I have handed your name out liberally (for an end user perspective), so expect some PM's yourself.

There are enough carbureted users now that this subset of the community is self supporting.

Byrne is converting his refurbs to 2100's (he has a fabricator slice the rails off a K-Jet manifold, route out a common plenum, then weld a big plate across the top).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

As Bill says, information is good.

Attached is a file explaining the fundamentals of carburetor theory and operation. The diagrams were copied from a book which is no longer in print, so I am fairly certain no copyright has been infringed. The text is largely from the book, too, but has been adapted by myself for modern use.

I hope it is useful.

Farrar

[content22207]

A couple of clarifications from Farrar's document Re: Motorcraft 2100's (the carb Byrne and I supply):
- 2100's do not use metering rods
- 2100 jets are not located in the venturi bores -- they are located at the bottom of the bowl
- The 2100 idle circuit uses the same metering jets as the throttle circuit
- 2100's do not have separate low and high speed circuits. Instead, they use a vacuum activated valve on the bottom of the bowl to allow additional fuel to bypass the jets as manifold vacuum drops -- same effect as having two different size sets of jets. High speed fuel enters the venturis through the same passages as low speed fuel (the full throttle enrichment valva, AKA "power valve", empties into the same fuel wells)

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

... The addition of a choke plate before the throttle plates allows more fuel to be drafted for any given amount of throttle plate opening....

Correction: I should have written that the choke plate is located before the venturis (which does place it before the throttle plates, but the important thing is it is located before the point of pressure drop).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Farrar]

I find it fascinating that Byrne is doing carb conversions. When did this begin?

Farrar

[SamHill]

Might I impose on you for a pic of your modified intake?

[content22207]

His personal car is running the prototype (the earlier installation with two tubes into stock K-Jet runners has been sold). He's installing a second one on one of his refurbs, which is the subject of the PM's I mentioned earlier. Don't know if the other two refurbs are getting carbs or keeping their K-Jet.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[joebob101]

Here are photos of one of Bill's manifold/carb conversions. It was a simple install. I am so pleased that I can drive the car without worrying about reliability. It starts every time and doesn't scare you by dying at a stop sign like the Kjet did. I can even kill the engine when I stop at a store and know that it will restart. I still have some linkage issues to work out with the automatic kickdown. I'm very pleased with my conversion.

3379338033813382

[content22207]

Clarification: Garin is talking about the shift point cable, not the kickdown microswitch. Apparently his cable is too short. We've been in direct communication about a replacement.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[sean]

. Apparently his cable is too short.

isn't this a standard piece of your kit? Does this cable length vary from car to car?

[content22207]

Cross posted from another thread:


... Isn't this the same argument as modifying the car by adding a carb? I see no difference…. (if you'll excuse the hyperbole. I know the carb mod isn't NEARLY as invasive)

Oh dear, obviously there is educating still to do.

A carb conversion only involves one "permanent" modification to the vehicle -- the throttle cable needs to be cut shorter to mate up to throttle plates in the middle of the engine rather than at the far end. Making a lazy bend in the original length just doesn't work very well -- the cable binds and does not slide smoothly.

All other adaptations either bolt on or are simply stuck in place:
- A low pressure fuel pump clamped in the original tank boot
- A new fuel line from the front of the car to the rear (K-Jet plumbing and components typically ride around idle underneath the car)
- Plugs stuck in the original injector boots
- Carbureted intake manifold mounted with the original head bolt holes
- One additional electrical line (original K-Jet wiring can be coiled up in the corner of the engine compartment, as mine has been for nearly a decade)

Everything north of the manifold is of course radically different, but once you unbolt the manifold all that differentness comes off with it.

Comparing a BTTF conversion to a carb conversion is either an attempt to be inflammatory, or simply displays significant lack of understanding.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[content22207]

isn't this a standard piece of your kit? Does this cable length vary from car to car?

All I provide is a ball end to go on your original cable.

The shift point cable should of course be the same length as the throttle cable. Both need to be cut shorter to mate up to a centrally located throttle mechanism. I don't know what happened to Garin's car, but for some reason his cable is too short already.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[sean]

Ok, I'm learning.

[content22207]

DeLorean carburetion has taken on a mystique that totally misrepresents what it in fact involves.

Carbureting a DeLorean is one of the easiest things you can do to the car. The whole process can easily be completed in one afternoon.

It also is one of the least invasive things you can do to the car. As stated, only one cable needs to be cut shorter (two for an automatic, although as Garin evidences the car is drivable even without the shift point cable attached). The longest part of the procedure is removal of K-Jet. Bolting down the carbureted intake manifold (everything north is already attached) only takes a minute or two. Since I test drive each installation on my own car, the carb shows up already adjusted and tuned -- as soon as it is bolted down (and the throttle cable cut shorter), you can start the car and drive it around.

We do run new fuel lines, so driving the car before a new line is in place will require filling the bowl manually, but it can be done -- a carbureted DeLorean can go from a bare intake valley to a drivable vehicle (within the range of a bowl of fuel) in minutes.

Bill Robertson
#5939

[joebob101]

This was a very simple installation. Like Bill says, the worst part is removing the Kjet. While I had the engine clean, I spent some time putting on new cooling hoses and working in the valley. Putting the manifold on and hooking up fuel lines, etc. took only a couple of hours and the car was purring like a kitten. I have kept and labelled all the removed parts. It would be a fairly easy job to convert back to the K/jet if I ever want to. Right now, I can think of no reason to reinstall unless I wanted a spot-on restoration, but that's not why I have the car. Right now, I want to get in it and go for a drive. It is so much more driveable now than with the K/jet.
I'm going to Bonneville next week. As soon as I get back, I'm going to see what I can do with the shift point cable. I'm sure it's an easy fix, I just haven't worked at it very hard.
Garen

[content22207]

If you need to snap the throttle plates to get them to close all the way, something is wrong with your supplemental return spring (stretched, popped off, etc). A healthy PRV pulls too much vacuum for the compression spring on the throttle cable alone to reliably close the throttle plates, so I add a supplemental tension spring:
3479

A partially closed choke plate will never cause a warm engine to rev high, but it will indeed cause it to struggle low (the poor thing can't breathe). Take the air filter off and look at it -- if the plate is open, it is working normally.

Converse is of course true for a cold engine: choke plate needs to snap closed, then crack open as soon as the engine is running. Don't pump the accelerator pedal -- just tap it lightly to take the tension off so the choke mechanism can rotate (positions the fast idle cam as well as closes the choke plate).

Bill Robertson
#5939

[Ron]

A partially closed choke plate will never cause a warm engine to rev high...
One can never say never around here!

Playing :devil: advocate-

A partially closed choke plate can indeed cause a warm engine to rev high:
-Set the fast idle cam you mentioned (that's its job).
-Compensate for vacuum leaks (a great test BTW).

=====

They should have named this "$tir$hit" instead of "woot"->:woot: