Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4
Results 31 to 40 of 40

Thread: 3.0l bottom end/2.8 heads and valvetrain question

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Mar 2014

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    413

    My VIN:    04194: 5-Speed, Black Int, 79 Peugeot 604 Manifold, 05052: 5-Speed, Gray Int, 78 Peugeot 604 manifol



    Sorry to bring life back to an old thread, but I'm in the process of researching a 3.0 build with 2.8 heads as a long-term project. While both of my 2.8s are running well at the moment, since the supply of reasonably used 2.8's has pretty much dried up, I am looking into options for a 3.0 build down the road. The plan is as follows:

    * 3.0 Block, Crank and Pistons

    * 2.8 heads and cams retimed for the even-fire of the 3.0. (This will be a good opportunity to upgrade to performance cams)

    * Custom distributor likely built by combining a early 80's BMW even-fire 6 cylinder distributor with a stock DMC unit. (In the alternative, Farrar's car is using a modified AMC/Jeep 4.2 distributor)

    * Peugeot 604 Intake and Carb

    * Mechanical Fuel Pump


    Based upon the posts of others in the thread, the 2.8 and 2.7 heads can be mated to the 3.0 block. Furthermore, as evidenced by Farrar's recent 3.0 swap, the 2.8/2.7 cams can be utilized in the 3.0. So why not run the stock 3.0 bottom end with the stock 2.8 heads retimed for even-fire operation? I'm trying to avoid drilling holes in 3.0 heads, making intake adapter plates and dealing with alternator / AC compressor fitment issues that go along with using the 3.0 heads.

    My question is how would I go about setting-up the timing chains on the above referenced design? According to my research, the 2.8 and 3.0 use the exact same timing chains. While I wasn't able to verify the timing gear part numbers for the 3.0 vs the 2.8, it is interesting to note that the even fire Volvo B280F uses the same cam and crank timing gears as the odd-fire B28F.

    If anyone has a set of 3.0 and 2.8 timing gears laying around could you post a comparison picture?

    Also what head gaskets does one use when installing 2.8 heads on a 3.0? The 3.0 head gaskets appear to be a 3.0 exclusive.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated!

    Andrew
    4194
    5052
    Andrew
    4194 Since 7/98
    5052 Since 7/14

    1972 Buick Riviera
    1974 Bricklin SV-1 177
    1982 AMC Eagle SX/4 (4.2 I6, 4 Speed)
    1983 Pontiac Trans Am (Knight Rider Conversion in progress)
    1985 Oldsmobile Toronado (daily driver)

    Solex carb and antenna television guru.

    "My carbon footprint is bigger than yours!" :-)

  2. #32
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Plantation, FL

    Posts:    4,382

    My VIN:    02613

    Deleted earlier post because I misread something. Never mind. Sorry.

    So are you trying to build an even-firing 2.8L by using the 3.0L timing sprockets?
    Last edited by Farrar; 04-05-2018 at 08:23 PM.
    DeLorean status: back home again after two years!

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    -Douglas Adams

  3. #33
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Plantation, FL

    Posts:    4,382

    My VIN:    02613

    Timing chain info from Monaco/Premier workbook. Maybe this will be helpful?

    timing_chains_1.jpgtiming_chains_2.jpgtiming_chains_3.jpgtiming_chains_4.jpgtiming_chains_5.jpg
    DeLorean status: back home again after two years!

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    -Douglas Adams

  4. #34
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,446

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    The timing "gears" should be the same across the board between PRV odd, even, 3.0 as far as having 38 teeth on the cam sprocket. All it's doing is getting the 1:2 ratio between crank and camshafts so if you go messing around with different size sprockets you'll lose that ratio and your engine won't run. The difference is with the camshafts as far as valve timing, and the crankshaft as far as the split journals.

    I read you want to retain the 2.8 heads - just note that you'll get better flow and performance from the 3.0 heads, if that matters to you. Also, from past conversations, if you have 2.8 even-fire camshafts, you can send them to Josh/DPI to have a performance grind done. I have not done this yet, but it is an option.
    Last edited by dn010; 04-06-2018 at 09:53 AM.
    -----Dan B.

  5. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Mar 2014

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    413

    My VIN:    04194: 5-Speed, Black Int, 79 Peugeot 604 Manifold, 05052: 5-Speed, Gray Int, 78 Peugeot 604 manifol

    Thanks for the replies. Basically, my idea is to build a even fire 3.0 engine with 2.8 heads and 2.8 cams. Essentially, the only difference between this build and Farrar's engine would be the use of 2.8 heads on my 3.0 engine. I would have never thought that the odd fire 2.8 cams would work in an even fire 3.0 engine, but Bill and Farrar have proven otherwise.

    While I agree that the 3.0 heads have better flow, I would like to avoid having to drill the distributor and mechanical fuel pump holes in the 3.0 heads and I would also like to avoid using adapter plates for the intake manifold.

    I watched the video that Bill made in which he explained why the odd fire cams will work in the even fire engine. However, I would presume that at least the passenger side camshaft would have to be set in a different position on the 3.0 vs the 2.8. Otherwise, the valve timing would be out of sequence with the even fire engine.

    Perhaps I'm using the wrong term, but is the alignment reference tab on the 3.0 passenger timing gear in a different positon than the 2.8?

    Farrar, could you ask Bill if he set up the timing chains and gears on the 3.0 per the Eagle shop manual? (thank you for the pictures the pages). Also, did Bill have a reason for not using the 2.8 heads on the 3.0 block?

    Thank you!

    Andrew
    4194
    5052
    Andrew
    4194 Since 7/98
    5052 Since 7/14

    1972 Buick Riviera
    1974 Bricklin SV-1 177
    1982 AMC Eagle SX/4 (4.2 I6, 4 Speed)
    1983 Pontiac Trans Am (Knight Rider Conversion in progress)
    1985 Oldsmobile Toronado (daily driver)

    Solex carb and antenna television guru.

    "My carbon footprint is bigger than yours!" :-)

  6. #36
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Plantation, FL

    Posts:    4,382

    My VIN:    02613

    In the world of the PRV engine, there's no such thing as an "odd-fire camshaft" or an "even-fire camshaft." Chains and sprockets, yes - camshafts, no.

    I will send your question to Bill since I don't have the information you require.

    Edit: Forgot to address your other question. I think the reason for not using the 2.8L heads on the 3.0L block was a combination of the rot holes in the 2.8L heads (also possibly failed head gaskets and/or cylinder liners) and the fact that fitting a distributor and fuel pump was easier than swapping heads.
    Last edited by Farrar; 04-08-2018 at 10:46 PM.
    DeLorean status: back home again after two years!

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    -Douglas Adams

  7. #37
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Plantation, FL

    Posts:    4,382

    My VIN:    02613

    info from Bill R.

    Bill says he's sure that the indexing marks on 3.0L chains are in different locations than those on 2.8L chains; otherwise, valves would be opening and closing at the wrong times. Chains themselves are likely the same length, since the timing chain covers are the same size, heads are in the same location, etc.

    Bill also says that a user named "Admiral Senn" built a hybrid 2.8L/3.0L engine. Try looking up that user name here on DMCTalk and send him a message. He could probably give you all the information you need for this project.
    DeLorean status: back home again after two years!

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    -Douglas Adams

  8. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  Mar 2014

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    413

    My VIN:    04194: 5-Speed, Black Int, 79 Peugeot 604 Manifold, 05052: 5-Speed, Gray Int, 78 Peugeot 604 manifol

    Quote Originally Posted by Farrar View Post
    Bill says he's sure that the indexing marks on 3.0L chains are in different locations than those on 2.8L chains; otherwise, valves would be opening and closing at the wrong times. Chains themselves are likely the same length, since the timing chain covers are the same size, heads are in the same location, etc.

    Bill also says that a user named "Admiral Senn" built a hybrid 2.8L/3.0L engine. Try looking up that user name here on DMCTalk and send him a message. He could probably give you all the information you need for this project.

    Farrar: Thank you to you and Bill for the information. I greatly appreciate it! I compared the Eagle shop manual pages that you provided with the DMC shop manual and confirmed that the method for installing / setting the timing chains is identical for the 2.8 and the 3.0. Thus, I figured that the sprockets had to have different timing marks.

    I've currently got a Oldsmobile 403 that has taken up residence on my engine stand pending its installation in my 1985 Toronado, but once that project is complete (hopefully later this spring) I will start my 3.0 build.

    I'll get a hold of Admiral Senn and see if he has any further information / input regarding this build.

    Thanks again!

    Andrew
    4194
    5052
    Andrew
    4194 Since 7/98
    5052 Since 7/14

    1972 Buick Riviera
    1974 Bricklin SV-1 177
    1982 AMC Eagle SX/4 (4.2 I6, 4 Speed)
    1983 Pontiac Trans Am (Knight Rider Conversion in progress)
    1985 Oldsmobile Toronado (daily driver)

    Solex carb and antenna television guru.

    "My carbon footprint is bigger than yours!" :-)

  9. #39
    Senior Member AdmiralSenn's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Posts:    433

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew View Post
    Farrar: Thank you to you and Bill for the information. I greatly appreciate it! I compared the Eagle shop manual pages that you provided with the DMC shop manual and confirmed that the method for installing / setting the timing chains is identical for the 2.8 and the 3.0. Thus, I figured that the sprockets had to have different timing marks.

    I've currently got a Oldsmobile 403 that has taken up residence on my engine stand pending its installation in my 1985 Toronado, but once that project is complete (hopefully later this spring) I will start my 3.0 build.

    I'll get a hold of Admiral Senn and see if he has any further information / input regarding this build.

    Thanks again!

    Andrew
    4194
    5052
    I have been summoned.....

    Just to clarify, I did NOT create the frankenmotor described in this thread. I inherited it already-finished from a DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner).

    The motor uses a stock 2.8 crankcase and crankshaft, with rods and pistons from a 3.0 Premier engine. The 2.8 block was fly cut to accept the larger diameter piston liners from the 3.0 engine. As far as I have been able to tell, everything else was OEM 2.8 (timing components, cams, heads, etc).

    The engine performed pretty well, the PO estimated it was worth in the neighborhood of 50hp at the crank, but he also was quick to point out that for the price of the machine work you could do literally almost anything else to get better results. He claimed to have dyno'd the car at ~200 rwhp with the addition of custom headers and exhaust and a freer flowing intake - lots of people have been quick to dump all over this number though and I never got to dyno it for myself. Unfortunately this motor is dead and the car has sat for 6+ years as I ran into some difficult life situations and have only recently gotten to the point where I can start contemplating resurrecting the car again.

    If you have a serious interest in the short block let me know, I'd be very willing to let it go for very little - mostly I would just want to cover the cost to ship it. In its current state you would definitely want to have the entire thing disassembled and professionally evaluated, I believe there is some damage to the crankshaft bearing surfaces and the assembly needs to be rebalanced at a minimum. It's just taking up space in my garage right now, I was planning to convert it to a coffee table as a trophy of sorts. But it would be cheaper to fix it up than to duplicate the work.
    Aka Adam S, aka Adam Wright
    1981 DMC-12 #3416, mothballed in preparation for motor swap
    2006 Volvo S60R

  10. #40
    Owner since 2007 Farrar's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Plantation, FL

    Posts:    4,382

    My VIN:    02613

    Quote Originally Posted by AdmiralSenn View Post
    the car has sat for 6+ years as I ran into some difficult life situations and have only recently gotten to the point where I can start contemplating resurrecting the car again.
    Off topic, but I have to jump in here and say I sympathize. My car sat for over two years because of a bunch of unplanned life events (it's now running thanks to a replacement engine, but it's still a work in progress). I'm glad that you, too, are able to look at getting yours back on the road, however long it has taken. Hang in there!
    DeLorean status: back home again after two years!

    "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
    -Douglas Adams

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •