One Time Opportunity: Upgraded (“bulletproof”) transmission coupler order

[Mario]

Yeesh, Josh. Okay, I will willingly give up my spot since my DeLorean won't be arriving for some more months anyway. You can have my coupler.

[SEO Motorsports]

I'm going to approach this objectively. I will take fault in not asking a number of these questions up front to those I knew were involved with this at the time:

I was under the impression when this went down that our commitment for 10 got this rolling with only a few others committed at that time. I would think at the very least you and I should have at least one a piece. Not only to install and test the product prior to handing out to everyone else but because out of anyone on this list we are the only two that will have the component installed immediately. IMO this "process" has not gone smoothly and I am thankfully that I am a committed end user in this situation and not directly related to production.

My supplier came through a few days after this started rolling with our tooling returned for use with another manufacture. I have stayed committed after I said I would. I would also appreciate better communication from all involved. (I'm not even sure the extent of that) We worked to help sell the product in quantity and have a number of people waiting and of course watching this thread. All aware that not a single coupler will be shipped unit installed on our end and tested. Our version is more expensive in comparison and I would rather not need to re quote (not an option regardless) and or give at cost to appease those waiting or if the product does not test out. (what will end up happening worst case)

This is absolutely not how this should have gone down. I'm definitely concerned at this point about liability. Are owners actually being supplied couplers without testing prior? Who is responsible for the design work if their is a failure or issues? Does the manufacturing company hold liability, the designer of the print used?

I"m not questioning the manufacturer, design or engineer work without seeing it first. But these concerns are kinda common sense and clearly crosses the line between "hobbyist" activities and a business developing and marketing a product. The question stands: who is actually responsible and standing behind this?

Josh,

I don't know what to tell you other than Nick fronted the money for the 20 pieces so it was going to happen no matter what because he knew he would get his money back. I needed one to finish this project and Nick already had the design completed and stepped up to the plate. We are doing this just to offer them to the community, if someone doesn't want to buy one because it's not tested or have a warranty, that's up to them. The next guy will buy it. The only part I have in this is recieving the couplers from the manufacturer and shipping them out because Nick is out of the country. Nick is a professional mechanical engineer who designes stuff for Disney and has a functioning one piece shaft in his car of his design that is much more complicated than this simple coupler.



All,

So we put it out there for everyone, these are "Hobbyist" pieces designed by a very competent mechanical engineer but are the only ones that I know of actually available for purchase. There is no warranty and are to be used at your own risk. I will be installing one this weekend and will post pictures when completed.

[SEO Motorsports]

Yeesh, Josh. Okay, I will willingly give up my spot since my DeLorean won't be arriving for some more months anyway. You can have my coupler.

We can make this happen at your request.

[Mario]

Yes, I am 100% serious. I wouldn't have any use for it for at least a few more months, so he can have mine. I will wait for the later batch.

[Delorean Industries]

Mario, Appreciate the gesture but that wasn't the point. We have our own and are simply working to keep our prior commitment.


My reaction to this is simply based on a lack of knowledge of who is doing what. I was under the impression Henrik contracted SEO to make these and that someone had put out a toby unit on loan to copy (nick). Again as I posted previously credentials are not in question. I'm sure Nick is more than capable. With that said this is "business" and applies to the rules of such for the protection of consumers. Hobbyist approach aside no matter what this is called liability exists. If we could go through life simply doing things without being responsible for our actions business liability structuring wouldn't exist.

Again... I should have asked for more details up front but was under the impression that this was much different than what it turns out to be. I thought SEO was responsible for this as a product. I was simply implying that if a risk of any sort concerning a component meant to solve a strength issue in a car certain care and caution should be exercised. At this point it sounds like the engineer is liable for it as he put it into production. If he is working for a corporation I'm sure they have a clause or policy involving engineering work outside of the constraints of his employment. All of this stuff matters. Not trying to start something but prevent it from going sideways. I've been doing this long enough to know the boundaries and limits.

[SEO Motorsports]

Mario, Appreciate the gesture but that wasn't the point. We have our own and are simply working to keep our prior commitment.


My reaction to this is simply based on a lack of knowledge of who is doing what. I was under the impression Henrik contracted SEO to make these and that someone had put out a toby unit on loan to copy (nick). Again as I posted previously credentials are not in question. I'm sure Nick is more than capable. With that said this is "business" and applies to the rules of such for the protection of consumers. Hobbyist approach aside no matter what this is called liability exists. If we could go through life simply doing things without being responsible for our actions business liability structuring wouldn't exist.

Again... I should have asked for more details up front but was under the impression that this was much different than what it turns out to be. I thought SEO was responsible for this as a product. I was simply implying that if a risk of any sort concerning a component meant to solve a strength issue in a car certain care and caution should be exercised. At this point it sounds like the engineer is liable for it as he put it into production. If he is working for a corporation I'm sure they have a clause or policy involving engineering work outside of the constraints of his employment. All of this stuff matters. Not trying to start something but prevent it from going sideways. I've been doing this long enough to know the boundaries and limits.

Your assumption were incorrect.

[Delorean Industries]

Alright so I'm still asking a very valid question. With no one reaching out privately on this matter I'll continue to ask here. As I thought I was dealing with a business on this product with instructions to send payment and correspondence there upon completion. Where does the buck stop? A product is being manufactured and sold for profit. This isn't a hobby situation helping a few people out. This is something I ask of all of my manufactures and suppliers. If it is someone mentioned it should be known and they should have the appropriate measures in place for liability. Expressed or not this is expected of the others purchasing these as consumers. If it is the machining outfit or the circumstances some how are different please inform me privately. I'm just extremely concerned over this as it appears that I have stumbled onto uncharted territory in this manufacturing venture. I'm not trying to preach on or undermine this in any way. I am continuing to reiterate myself based on the numerous posts followed by responses ignoring a very straight forward question.

To be as forward as possible: If there were a problem my liability and manufacturing insurance (or any one else with such insurance for that matter) does not cover a product not produced or engineered by us or that is purchased from a supplier not protected by the same type of liability coverage. I would be insane to purchase anything in quantity without first verifying the path of liability of any component we purchase for use/resale. If the manufacturer of a component is not liable for the components integrity then it is negligent on my part to use and sell it. Making me liable and not covered/protected. This question is simply good business practice.

The age old question in the community. "why do vendors not purchase products made my owners in the community?" Its not because we don't like people. But they don't have certain things allowing them to safely do so.

[DrJeff]

Josh,

Now don't be going all Delorean1 on us...

You signed up, if it isn't what you expected then back out. The concerns you're citing are yours and as you've explained, in the interests of protecting your business.

I'm just interested in improving my car, if this coupler doesn't work or causes problems then I fully understand the risk is carried by me alone, and I have no problem with that. I'm fitting it in a car that I own. I don't need a vendor to sign off on a coupler as tested (whatever that means - perhaps for those that are interested you can specify the engineering specifics involved in your testing.) I do appreciate that Nick has been kind enough as a fellow enthusiast to do the hands on checks against the design request. Perhaps some day I'll get the opportunity to return the favor.

Jeff

[Delorean Industries]

Jeff,

While I respect your good will towards the situation that is not how the world works. If you or anyone is injured by something manufactured not you but your insurance or loved ones etc will go after that person. Someone always picks up the check.... We can all sit back and say we are friends on here but that means nothing when it gets down to it. If Nick is assuming responsibility for this product then he needs to be fully aware of the obligations of doing so. Designing and making for yourself. One thing. Design and making while handing to others. Completely different.At this time I would find it extremely hard to believe with how intelligent he is that he would willingly open himself up to this type of liability. IF he is truly the one holding the bag for this. Again I signed on thinking something else as I was clearly led to believe a business was manufacturing and regardless will complete our end of the agreement if this is being conducted properly and or liability is properly assigned. I agree with you Jeff I really do. I would love to go through life with everyone living and working together as you posted. That is not how this type of thing works. Please don't see this as me trying to interject on your project. I know Nick (if he is at the end of this) has worked extremely hard to get where he is at in life. I would hate to see him (or anyone for that matter) fall prey to a nasty technicality in the way things work. I know the best of intentions are behind all of this. In the end there is simply too much at stake to roll the dice.

[Nicholas R]

First off I just want to say thanks to Ed and everyone else. Being 12 hours different, working long hours, and being a slave to my VPN doesn't allow me to stay as connected as I wish.

Again I want to say thank you for the support in the project, and reiterate that this project was only meant to help people, and was no way intended to cause angst or upset people.


Josh,

I am not a DeLorean vendor. You called this a "hobbyist" venture? Well, you're absolutely correct! DeLoreans are your job, and I get that; but this is not my job. I have a day job that suits me just fine. I am not making these parts to make money, nor am I making them so that you can make money. I'm making them to help the community; so that people can enjoy their cars they way they want to, while worrying a little less (and because I have a soft spot for high powered DeLoreans). Truth be told, I designed this coupler back in February but I was not planning to have any made for quite a while (if ever). Obviously having them made weeks before I knew I was going to Shanghai, China was a ridiculous idea. I was only motivated to do so now because the community need was here, and Ed was able to manage the project in the USA in my absence. If I'm lucky, by the time all the couplers are sold, I'll recoup my investment, and come out MAYBE a couple hundred dollars ahead; (after months of time, energy, and headache) money that will end up right back with this machine shop, sunk into trying to improve my one piece shaft.

I'm getting the sense that you feel very invested in this project and don't feel like you're getting anything out of it. For this I am sorry. I am a person that keeps my work and my designs very close to the chest and guarded, letting in only a select few. Often I will not speak of my projects until after they are complete. This is also why I do not take any money up front; to avoid people feeling invested in my work before it is complete. I was not aware that you sent Ed one of Toby's couplers that you owned; I believe that took place before I spoke to Ed about my design (I have my own collection of original and Toby couplers). That was certainly a very nice gesture on your part and I'm sure your coupler will be returned to you. Still, please understand that I do not feel as though I owe anything to you or anyone else (except for Ed; I do owe him for his help and hard work). I understand that you expressed interest in 10 couplers, but please know that I would have had these made even if you didn’t want any at all, because I believe in the part. If it ends up that no one wants these couplers right now, it will not faze me. I’ll hold onto them over the years and sell them one at a time as needed. My livelihood is not contingent on their sale.

I'm sure with vendors like Stainless Works, you have contracts, business partnerships, design requirement specifications, deliverables matrices, financial investments and interests, etc. That is not the case here. We have no business relationship. I am not a part supplier. I may be some day, but right now consider me an enthusiast that had some parts made to help out other owners. If you're not comfortable with this, I understand. You are free to back out with no hard feelings. Obviously no money has changed hands.

Your posts have certainly given me perspective on how people can negatively react to a project that’s intentions are good. For that I do sincerely thank you. As a result, no couplers will be sold without the purchaser first signing a Sales & Liability Agreement, with an attached Limited Warranty. This will be emailed to the purchasers and will need to be signed, scanned, and returned to me before couplers will be sent. I have made Ed aware of this.

As far as the parts themselves, each one was tested for spline fit before being sent. Normally I would also test every party by hand myself as a sanity check, but being on the other side of the globe, I regrettably cannot do that right now. If there are any issues, I want to be personally made aware. Please note that the fit of these couplers is meant to be tighter than Toby’s which slides on and off by hand with ease. The splines of the shafts should be lubricated (to aid in install and prevent fretting), and the coupler may need tapped on. It is meant to be a tight connection.

Also, on that note, I know Ed and I have gone back and forth on who should be communicated with (he or I) and I apologize for the confusion. I believe Ed has everyone’s contact information and address. Ed is the keeper of the list of those interested as well as the order in which people expressed interest. It is only fair that they are distributed in the order that people chimed in.

Each member who’s screen name that Ed has posted will receive a PM from me. I will send you my email address for paypal, and I will request your email address so that I may send you the sales agreement with warranty. I will request that you sign it and send it back to me. After I have the agreement and the paypal’d funds, I’ll let Ed know to ship your parts (coupler & roll pin).

[please note my responses may be slightly delayed due to the time zone difference]

I hope this clears things up.

Thanks again to everyone,

Nick