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Thread: Falcon wing doors are just as hard to make as gull wings

  1. #21
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    Exactly, when you get into a conventional car in the front or back, its pretty intuitive to know where the handle is because its right in the open....someone gettiing into a Tesla for the first time probably isnt going to be aware of the hidden cable...it is a safety hazardm unless the owner takes time to explain what to do in case of a major crash. No car I've ever been in had hidden latches and even from the back seat of a 2 door car, the handle was accesible.
    Rob Depew
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  2. #22
    Formally hmm252000
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    I genuinely have no idea how it could be made clearer. And I honestly don't know if it is a lack of clarity in the explanation, or simply a prejudice thing with wanting to defend the Tesla no matter what.
    Just the opposite. I'm trying to say Tesla is no different and shouldn't be singled out like they are here. Like it or not, many modern cars will trap you in the event of an electrical failure. Not necessarily through electronic latches, but through electronic locks. Most are designed to auto unlock in the event of a crash (much like our DeLoreans do). However, lightning or a sudden fire that knocks the computer out will result in being locked in the car. You can even have some makes of cars trap occupants inside via the key fob which disables the internal latches.

    Thinking more about it, I'm glad Tesla doesn't make the manual override so obvious. In the event of a crash where the door could be jammed, you don't want the occupants messing around with trying to force the door open because they think a manual release is more like an emergency release. Just have them do what's instinctive when a door won't open: try another door. That's what the occupants in the OP article did and were fine. They could also use the manual release for the rear hatch to get out that way (assuming they knew about that method). Then there's the standby of also just smashing a window out. You may not agree with me on that and that's fine as it's just a personal opinion. But if there's an automotive safety expert that can weigh in here I'm willing to adjust my thoughts accordingly.

    Ultimately if you are super paranoid about being trapped in a car, then put one of these on your key chain:
    https://www.amazon.com/resqme-Origin.../dp/B000IDYKNC

    I'm now curious as to what you think about child door locks were the door just can't be opened from the inside at any time? Been in use for decades and hasn't been a major issue as far as I heard.

  3. #23
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4099 View Post
    Just the opposite. I'm trying to say Tesla is no different and shouldn't be singled out like they are here. Like it or not, many modern cars will trap you in the event of an electrical failure. Not necessarily through electronic latches, but through electronic locks. Most are designed to auto unlock in the event of a crash (much like our DeLoreans do). However, lightning or a sudden fire that knocks the computer out will result in being locked in the car. You can even have some makes of cars trap occupants inside via the key fob which disables the internal latches.
    Exactly which cars are these you reference that will trap you inside because of door locks?

    Now please understand that I'm not trying to be a troll here, but I'm not 100% certain that you may be aware of how door locks work. Specifically the idea of power door locks that GM introduced in their patents as a "coincidental locking system" that can actuate the locking rods, but still hand over primary control to the mechanical system for a redundant purpose. Which is what cars use to this day. Which again, if you know of a vehicle that doesn't have this redundant design, please let me know. Because I sure as hell wouldn't want to buy one!

    In a nut shell, all of the locking capabilities lie within the door latch itself. There are different door latch & linkage designs. We have our traditional one where unless we hold the exterior door handle open, closing the door will automatically unlock the latch to prevent you from accidentally locking yourself out. Most importantly, however, we have the concurrent feature of when the internal door handle linkage is activated to open the latch, it will simultaneously pull the internal lock within the latch open. Pulling on the external linkage does not do this. Thus we are able to lock a door from external unauthorized entry, while still allowing the occupant(s) to exit the vehicle at any time, regardless of the electrical power supply situation.

    The implementation looks different depending upon vehicles. Some vehicles may still use the traditional design of an external lock cylinder connected to the internal mechanical lock linkage on all doors. Most, however, will only have a single lock cylinder on the driver's door to save on costs. Some vehicles may actually eschew internal lock linkages all together, and rely solely upon an actuator to lock the doors. However, they still have the redundant unlocking feature for the interior door handles to let people out. So even if the actuators failed to unlock the doors (be it from a lack of power, or even a failed actuator), the passengers can still get out of the vehicle in the case of an emergency. But the main reason for unlocking the doors in the case of an accident is to enable responders to quickly open the doors to render first aid, or provide an extraction if needed.

    Now the DMC-12 is different because it uses TWO locking latches. It has an inherent issue with door latches potentially jamming to either prevent latching, and thus opening in an accident, or jamming which prevents the door from opening at all. Most likely the solution for this by DeLorean Motor Company were not only the guide blocks, but the combination of the Inertia Switch as well as the "LOCK DOORS" warning light. Forcing the driver to lock the doors in order to get the annoying light to turn off. And if the driver cannot lock the door because it isn't latched/closed all the way, they would be forced to open/close the door again until they could do so. This would prevent the problem of an opening door in an accident. On the flip side, study the schematic and you can clearly see that the Inertia Switch is hardwired into the Brown/Pink unlock wires from the doors. This causes not only the fuel pump to turn off in the event of a collision, but it also immediately unlocks the doors. This way if there is any deformity in the doors resulting in a pre-load condition on the locking rods, the laches are both quickly unlocked and the doors can still be opened internally or externally by first responders.

    But the key thing to remember here is that even our doors are still manual. There are no electrical items like motors that prevent the doors from functioning. Just like Mercedes. The only other car that has ever had this issue was the Bricklin SV-1. Which is because instead of counterbalancing the doors with a torsion bar, Bricklin installed hydraulic rams (which can be retrofitted to aftermarket pneumatics). In that case as well, you have the same problem that the Tesla has with a system potentially trapping an occupant inside if it fails. BUT, Bricklin knew this and placed emergency releases above the occupant's heads. A quick pull of the pin in a conspicuous location, and the door is disconnected and can be opened up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4099 View Post
    Thinking more about it, I'm glad Tesla doesn't make the manual override so obvious. In the event of a crash where the door could be jammed, you don't want the occupants messing around with trying to force the door open because they think a manual release is more like an emergency release. Just have them do what's instinctive when a door won't open: try another door. That's what the occupants in the OP article did and were fine. They could also use the manual release for the rear hatch to get out that way (assuming they knew about that method). Then there's the standby of also just smashing a window out. You may not agree with me on that and that's fine as it's just a personal opinion. But if there's an automotive safety expert that can weigh in here I'm willing to adjust my thoughts accordingly.
    I gotta be honest, I don't follow that line of reasoning. Cars aren't meant to have "emergency releases". They just have the primary releases that are always available. We may only use the coincidental locking systems, but those primary linkages are purely mechanical and don't need electricity to operate. Which is the main point of all this; Tesla's design is a poor one that provides no easy way out.

    Climbing over seats? Yeah, that isn't going to happen. I don't know if you've ever been hit hard enough to be punch drunk. It's not fun. Your vision is shaky, you can't think straight, and your hand-eye coordination (let alone motor control) is barely rudimentary enough to function. And that is assuming that the rest of you if physically fine. And when you're in an accident, even if you're wearing a seatbelt, that doesn't always protect you from other objects (including people) from hitting you and causing serious injury. Take a look at these women and tell me if you really think either one of them is ready to just start jumping over seats.


    https://youtu.be/1qU0DU-v2_I?t=5m36s

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4099 View Post
    Ultimately if you are super paranoid about being trapped in a car, then put one of these on your key chain:
    https://www.amazon.com/resqme-Origin.../dp/B000IDYKNC
    I'm not paranoid in the least. But I'm telling you right now that smashing tempered automotive glass isn't at all like breaking a bottle or a house window. Nor should I have carry tools with me in order to fight my way out of a vehicle at any given time when the car manufacturer could have just installed an damn door handle in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris4099 View Post
    I'm now curious as to what you think about child door locks were the door just can't be opened from the inside at any time? Been in use for decades and hasn't been a major issue as far as I heard.
    Child safety latches are a just a useless gimmick to give car buyers a false sense of security. First off, if a child is young enough that they don't know the danger of opening a car door while in motion, they belong in a car seat of some kind. The kind that also doesn't allow them to jump out of the car because it requires an adult to release them from the seat. Which then defeats the purpose of having the safety locks since they cannot get to the door handles in the first place.

    Second, we know it's bad to trap children in cars. This child here, Michael Esposito is the reason that we have conspicuous, glow-in-the-dark emergency release latches inside of car trunks. Because we know that it's bad to leave children locked inside of hot cars with no way to get out. Which renders the entire purpose of child safety locks utterly pointless. But even then, guess what? The doors can still be opened from the outside, which the Falcon doors still cannot do.

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