3.0L engine swap

[Bitsyncmaster]

Thanks, Dave. You just saved me some money.

I ran a test of the Ford unit when I was testing the GM modules. The Ford unit runs pretty much the same as the stock ECU. The GM modules adjust the dwell a lot and when the engine is not running they don't power the coil. I'm now running the GM module with no coil resistors.

Bill sent me the Ford unit for testing.

[DMCVegas]

Robert, you are forgetting there is two mechanisms to advance / retard timing. Sure you slide around the distributor to set the base timing but you need to advance the timing dynamically as the engine is running (most distributors do this via a vacuum source). But i'm sure you already know that. Cause you know everything. I find it hard to take advice or information on swap and retrofit ideas for someone whos car has not run for years and is otherwise stock.

You know what, you are correct, I did forget about those two items, so it does indeed make it a moot point about an adapter.

But as for the personal attacks with people whom you disagree with, that really isn't anything new with you, now is it?

[Farrar]

The 3.0L PRV has a provision for mounting the 2.8L's Ignition Distributor. You just need to drill out the hole.

That's what Bill thought, but when he took the valve covers off and looked, there was no gear for driving a distributor. Maybe this engine had been modified from stock, but regardless we're working with what we've got.

At one point Bill entertained the idea of taking the 3.0L camshaft to a shop and have a 2.8L distributor gear installed on it, but that would have been expensive.

[DMCVegas]

That's what Bill thought, but when he took the valve covers off and looked, there was no gear for driving a distributor.

Right. That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

[Farrar]

Right. That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

You do? Fine. But I don't, and won't.

The earliest planning stages of #2613's engine swap were, I think, somewhere around summer or autumn of 2015. From that time all the way up until last week there was no plan to mess with any donor 3.0L engine south of the heads. Engine mounts were to be adapted/fabricated. But, upon investigating the procedure, Bill decided that swapping the lower crankcase actually isn't all that bad of a job. By the time the decision was made to swap the lower crankcase, the distributor was already mounted.

Spark distribution has now been taken care of. We're not going back now, only forward. I don't see much point in discussing it any more.

That said, I received the following this afternoon in an e-mail from Bill, who asked me to copy & paste here on his behalf. It corrects some misinformation I accidentally posted about the ignition distributor.

As a participant in this project, please allow me to correct some misinformation being bantered about:

1) 3.0 ignition distributors are nothing more than caps & rotors. That's it. No provision for an ignition signal. No provision for ignition advance. They are the topmost portion of a traditional ignition distributor alone -- nothing more.

2) Distributor bodies do not move. They are fastened tight to the engine.

3) Reluctor assembly inside a traditional distributor does move -- independently of the rotor. That's what gives you spark advance.

4) Reluctor assembly determines ignition module behavior. If the reluctor has 4 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 4 times each camshaft rotation for a 4 cylinder engine. If the reluctor has 6 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 6 times each camshaft rotation for a 6 cylinder engine. If the reluctor has 8 vanes, ignition module will turn on & off 8 times each camshaft rotation for an 8 cylinder engine. Similarly reluctor vanes determine whether the module turns on & off in an even fire sequence or in an odd fire sequence. If the reluctor has equal sized/spaced vanes the module will turn on & off in an even fire sequence. If the reluctor has alternating sized/spaced vanes the module will turn on & off in an odd fire sequence.

5) 3.0 ignition distributor has absolutely no provision for driving an ignition module. 3.0 ignition distributor has absolutely no provision for spark advance. For the purposes of this project, 3.0 ignition distributor was useless.

Farrar's engine now has a brand new Ford distributor interfaced to the camshaft (he's running an AMC/Jeep cap & rotor because the Ford cap & rotor looked comically large on such a small engine). This distributor has everything a 3.0 distributor is missing: hall effect sensor, six even fire reluctor vanes, centrifugal advance weights (swappable with other Ford distributor weights should Farrar ever want to play with advance curves), and a vacuum spark advance diaphragm. This distributor will properly signal any inductive ignition module Farrar wishes to attach to it (his car currently has the stock Bosch module and an adapted generic Duraspark module -- either is ready to be plugged into the stock wiring harness). In the exciting world of ignition, Farrar is now ready to rock & roll (after the brackets are painted of course).

I am a little perplexed by all the hand waving about gear lubrication. What exactly does everybody think the box around the gears is for? If I had no intention of lubricating the gears I would have saved myself the trouble of making that box.

This project will draw on the best technology 1981 has to offer. I appreciate everyone's concern, but I assure you: there is nothing causing me to scratch my head in bewilderment. It's simply a matter of careful fitting.

Distributor is done. Next up is adapting Farrar's existing carbureted intake manifold to the 3.0 heads (3.0 intake ports are located higher on the heads than 2.8 ports -- plates are necessary to fill the gaps created by moving the manifold higher in the intake valley). Again, please do not worry: If I can make entire intake manifolds from scratch, I assure you I can make a set of adapter plates.

Okay, now everybody please try to stay calm. I know we have a lot of colorful personalities here on DMCTalk, but I think we can all get along if we try hard enough to not let things get personal.

Regarding Bill's comment about me playing with advance curves later on: I doubt that will happen. After over two years -- possibly three by the time we're done -- I will happy just to have a DeLorean that moves under its own power. And every time I plan to do some kind of upgrade to the car, something on it breaks, which is a good indication that I should just leave well enough alone. (Except cruise control ... NC - NY is a long drive, so I really want cruise control.)

Bear in mind that this engine swap is part of a larger resurrection project that will include CV joints, brakes, air conditioning, and possibly some frame repair (I have a rust hole on the left side of the engine cradle by the tow hook, and having the engine out will be a great opportunity to fix it). Let's also not forget that #2613 has a fuel tank with gallons of ancient crap in it, most of the hoses on the car are nine years old, and the tires are eight years old. And who knows what electrical problems it has by now. There's mold on the vinyl door panels, too. So, you see, I have to keep the big picture in mind. If I worry myself to death about the engine, I'll never get around to fixing anything else. As for EFI, I will point out that this thread is in the "Carb" subforum of DMCTalk.

I will post updates for those interested in the progress of this project, and answer questions when I see them. In the meantime, happy holidays!

[Josh]

You know what, you are correct, I did forget about those two items, so it does indeed make it a moot point about an adapter.

But as for the personal attacks with people whom you disagree with, that really isn't anything new with you, now is it?

The issue I have is that you have guys like Farrar thinking outside of the box and actually getting out in the garage fabricating and building new ideas and putting them to work. Then there are people like yourself behind your keyboard criticizing their every move, based purely on theoretical knowledge. If you have so many bright ideas, then try them on your car instead of telling everyone else what to do.

I will admit I think there is a better way to tackle this problem with EFI, but that is not Farrar's or Bill's cup of tea. I can respect that. I can respect even more so that they are doing something unique and off the wall.

[Farrar]

Ahem.

Okay, now everybody please try to stay calm. I know we have a lot of colorful personalities here on DMCTalk, but I think we can all get along if we try hard enough to not let things get personal.

Peace!

[Drive Stainless]

He would need the odd-fire camshafts and the odd-fire crankshaft to make an odd-fire 3.0L. Otherwise, he's going to be firing when the pistons aren't anywhere near TDC.

[Farrar]

He would need the odd-fire camshafts and the odd-fire crankshaft to make an odd-fire 3.0L. Otherwise, he's going to be firing when the pistons aren't anywhere near TDC.

I think that's what DMCVegas meant when he said this:

That is why you swap the 2.8's cams and crank over. It brings the drive gear with it. You then have a 3.0 odd-fire engine.

Back on topic: next step is adapter plates for my 2.8L intake manifold. Stay tuned.

[Drive Stainless]

I think that's what DMCVegas meant when he said this:



Back on topic: next step is adapter plates for my 2.8L intake manifold. Stay tuned.

Yup, you're right. I don't know why I didn't see that before.