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Thread: EFI made easy for the PRV... maybe??

  1. #21
    EFI'd Member dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    But how much other work went into de-installation, fabrication, installation, and calibration for that system to even be up and running before you got to that point?
    You said "correct, functioning parts" so I was just going off that.
    -----Dan B.

  2. #22
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    Maintaining and troubleshooting a motor with an EFI system requires a through knowledge of how the system operates and the documentation on that system in particular. The person who installed it would have that knowledge. Not the next owner and usually not a Delorean service center. It gets down to simple things such as replacement air and fuel filters. Once set you should not need to tweak or adjust ANY settings on a K-Jet or an EFI system so simplicity is not a reason to convert to EFI, besides an EFI system is more complicated than K-Jet. As good as an EFI conversion can be the single biggest determining factor is going to be how well the install is done. If you want to experiment then go for it. I can't think of any good reason to convert except for that purpose. It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is. While some may call me a "purist" I agree an owner can do whatever he chooses to his car. Just be honest and do it for the right reasons. A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system. It was tuned specifically for the Delorean PRV. While it is true it can be harder to adjust, once set it works very reliably. Even an EFI system can have problems, especially if you get old, stale, or bad gas. Gee, that can happen to the K-Jet too! If you want cheap put a carburetor on if you think the K-Jet is that bad that it has to be ripped off.
    David Teitelbaum

  3. #23
    Not a DeLorean Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T View Post
    It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is. While some may call me a "purist" I agree an owner can do whatever he chooses to his car. Just be honest and do it for the right reasons. A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system. It was tuned specifically for the Delorean PRV. While it is true it can be harder to adjust, once set it works very reliably. Even an EFI system can have problems, especially if you get old, stale, or bad gas. Gee, that can happen to the K-Jet too! If you want cheap put a carburetor on if you think the K-Jet is that bad that it has to be ripped off.
    "It can't be cheaper than to fix up a broken K-Jet system no matter how bad it is"

    This is plain and simply not true.

    "Just be honest and do it for the right reasons."

    Who made you the gate-keeper of "right reasons?" What are those 'right reasons'? Oh yeah, that's right, you're a DeLorean Guru.

    "A well functioning K-Jet system can work as well, if not better, than an EFI system."

    This is also plain and simply not true.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  4. #24
    Not a DeLorean Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    But how much other work went into de-installation, fabrication, installation, and calibration for that system to even be up and running before you got to that point?
    It takes about a weekend. The complexity is highly over-stated.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  5. #25
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    It takes about a weekend. The complexity is highly over-stated.
    Do you have any links or starting points over in the EFI section then on how to get started? Just like with carbs, I've always stated that what we need is a guide on how to do all of this. I doubt that we'll have a K-Jetronic shortage anytime soon, but it would be great to have this kind of backup. Especially if it could be broken down into a 2.8 & 3.0 DIS guide for people dropping Premier engines in since we are starting to see fewer PRVs available. Such a guide would be great for people with block rot that may only have a 3.0 replacement available from their local junkyard. If we are going to have some sort of modification like this, the best thing would be to document it in order to standardize it for the community.

    I've no doubt that the complexity itself is overstated given what I've seen with other kits. But a guide would go a long way with helping others.
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    Do you have any links or starting points over in the EFI section then on how to get started? Just like with carbs, I've always stated that what we need is a guide on how to do all of this. I doubt that we'll have a K-Jetronic shortage anytime soon, but it would be great to have this kind of backup. Especially if it could be broken down into a 2.8 & 3.0 DIS guide for people dropping Premier engines in since we are starting to see fewer PRVs available. Such a guide would be great for people with block rot that may only have a 3.0 replacement available from their local junkyard. If we are going to have some sort of modification like this, the best thing would be to document it in order to standardize it for the community.

    I've no doubt that the complexity itself is overstated given what I've seen with other kits. But a guide would go a long way with helping others.
    I agree. Some kind of standardization would be very helpful. The actual mechanics of the installation are not all that bad. The big job is the creation of the tables to get it to work under all operating conditions. The good news is, when it gets done, it can be good for everyone and only has to be done once. It is so much work big automotive manufacturers have whole departments devoted to getting it right. It is a large undertaking for 1 individual.
    David Teitelbaum

  7. #27
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
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    I'm always amused when people argue over things like EFI, Carbs and K-Jet. Especially the arguments that come from those who have never experienced, never mind installed one of the others.

    As an early adopter of EFI and having had several cars with various kinds of carbs, (Zenith Strom, Weber, Summit Union....) I can share the following observations without even having the lofty title of guru.


    1. If you don' know the basics of engines, you have NO business changing anything. If your idea of fixing the car is taking it to DMC and DMC only, end of discussion.
    2. Once you have educated yourself on the theory, the equipment, the pros and the cons and think you are ready, form an implementation plan.
    3. Understand your car's OTHER systems that will be impacted by a change. Cooling (manifold cooling, temp sensor locations, etc), electrical (loads, commonality with K-Jet components, wiring in general), fuel delivery (pump, pressure, lines), air (pathway, exhaust), physical sizes of things for mounting, etc........
    4. DO IT.


    K-Jet relies on air plates, plungers, fuel pressure accumulators, rubber diaphragms, frequency valves, electronic control boxes and all kinds of other interconnected bits and bobs. It's RUBE GOLDBERG. Dismantling and spreading out all of the functions of a carb doesn't make it better. Doesn't mean it doesn't or can't work, but face it, it was the first steps from carburetion to fuel injection.

    Carburation is tried and true but is again largely mechanical in nature, subject to limitations of jet sizes, acceleration pumps, floats, etc... It has been improved upon.

    EFI is a modern solution that allows for infinite tweaking and tuning if that is what you wish to do. 1 brain (less than K-jet), standard issue electro mechanical injectors, tried and true idle control valves and NO OTHER MOVING PARTS to wear out or go out of spec. All choices use some kind of throttle plate, so I don't count that. The O2 sensor, like K-jet, along with temp sensor, manifold pressure sensor (in box) and the incoming air sensor are all simple. Only the throttle position sensor can be a bit of a challenge to install on the stock Delorean throttle body.

    The challenge/time consumer of EFI after the learning curve of actually LEARNING IT, is integrating it into our cars. A carb bolts on nice and easy once you have a properly sized manifold. Easy! It therefore MUST be better right? K-Jet came with the car, so that MUST be the best thing for it.... except EFI as it exists today didn't exist.... It's all about what your goals are. I didn't do mine to simply find an easy route. I did it to LEARN, to enjoy the benefits of modern technology and to keep advancing the capabilities. It wasn't easy for the first few of us to learn what does and does not work well when integrating into a Delorean. If I were to convert another car tomorrow I could do it in a weekend.

    So for those of you that have no first hand knowledge of what you speak and only opine on the theoretical or academic, why not defer to those that have blazed the trail to the future?
    Owen
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  8. #28
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    While I have done some "conversions" I never did one on a Delorean and most of my work on "conversions" was to finish other people's work and get it to run correctly because the original person who started it didn't get it finished or get it done right. It is an ambitious project because of the steep learning curve. The actual mechanical work is not nearly as great as the programming necessary to make it work under all operating conditions. Most shops won't even attempt it, they do the mechanical work, get it to run as best they can, and then send it to a tuner to tweak it and get it to run right. Can cost a LOT of money, especially if you dyno it to tune it. While EFI is the way of the future it does not mean everyone with a Delorean must do it. Getting the K-Jet system to work well and keeping it working well is still the best option for most. LED's are the future too but I don't say everyone should rip out all of their bulbs and replace them with LED's. Each owner has to decide what they want to do and what they want to spend. K-Jet is still a viable option (and in most cases the cheapest option). While the biggest virtue of EFI is the ability to tune it easily (and on the fly), once done it never really needs to be done again.
    David Teitelbaum

  9. #29
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spittybug View Post
    I'm always amused when people argue over things like EFI, Carbs and K-Jet. Especially the arguments that come from those who have never experienced, never mind installed one of the others.
    If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I will continue to say it until the day I die: More than once I have changed my opinion on something because someone was able to present me with facts that convinced me otherwise. And I am starting to turn my opinion here on EFI as more of a feasable alternative rather than a luxury mod. But let us talk about a couple of things here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spittybug View Post
    1. If you don' know the basics of engines, you have NO business changing anything. If your idea of fixing the car is taking it to DMC and DMC only, end of discussion.
    2. Once you have educated yourself on the theory, the equipment, the pros and the cons and think you are ready, form an implementation plan.
    3. Understand your car's OTHER systems that will be impacted by a change. Cooling (manifold cooling, temp sensor locations, etc), electrical (loads, commonality with K-Jet components, wiring in general), fuel delivery (pump, pressure, lines), air (pathway, exhaust), physical sizes of things for mounting, etc........
    4. DO IT.
    Great points I totally agree with. The biggest problems with my own DeLorean over the years haven't been engineering shortcomings, but rather sub-par mechanical work. Which leads me to my biggest concern here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Spittybug View Post
    Only the throttle position sensor can be a bit of a challenge to install on the stock Delorean throttle body.
    And this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spittybug View Post
    So for those of you that have no first hand knowledge of what you speak and only opine on the theoretical or academic, why not defer to those that have blazed the trail to the future?

    There are to be challenges to be certain, absolutely yes. Looking at the price of K-Jetronic parts as someone who is pulling a car out of long-term storage, EFI sure as hell is looking better and better to me. But that again is for someone who is looking at starting from scratch. If someone already has K-Jetronic working fine and just needs troubleshooting, that's a different story. But I digress. I'm getting off topic.

    I'll just come out and say it: It is great that we have the support of the EFI group, but what I'd really prefer to see is a community-accepted standard for an EFI conversion. For the exact same reasons that I wanted it for carburetor conversions:

    1. No individual, or group of individuals should hold control over knowlege so as to lock anyone out.
    2. A standardized, commonly accepted process gives both legitimacy, as well as easy repairability for future work.
    3. I don't want to see someone go and start off with a project that they never finish because they, nor especially the next owner.

    I want to avoid all of these pitfalls because I want all owners to always be able to enjoy their cars by having a positive experience. If that means switching over to EFI, then so be it. More importantly I want it to mean that they can easily start, finish, and maintain such a project for the foreseeable future without worry. There is noting worse than an abandoned project car in the garage that brings the owner nothing but frustration, and that is paramount to being avoided. With a standardized procedure, especially for those "tricky" things you have to deal with, those can be avoided.

    But I also don't want someone to feel that the only solution to have a running DeLorean is to dump K-Jetronic, or that an immediate switch is going to resolve all of their problems.
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary
    Ask me how the DOA can help get the word out about your club's local car shows!

  10. #30
    Delorean Guru
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I will continue to say it until the day I die: More than once I have changed my opinion on something because someone was able to present me with facts that convinced me otherwise. And I am starting to turn my opinion here on EFI as more of a feasable alternative rather than a luxury mod. But let us talk about a couple of things here.





    1. No individual, or group of individuals should hold control over knowlege so as to lock anyone out.
    2. A standardized, commonly accepted process gives both legitimacy, as well as easy repairability for future work.
    3. I don't want to see someone go and start off with a project that they never finish because they, nor especially the next owner.

    I want to avoid all of these pitfalls because I want all owners to always be able to enjoy their cars by having a positive experience. If that means switching over to EFI, then so be it. More importantly I want it to mean that they can easily start, finish, and maintain such a project for the foreseeable future without worry. There is noting worse than an abandoned project car in the garage that brings the owner nothing but frustration, and that is paramount to being avoided. With a standardized procedure, especially for those "tricky" things you have to deal with, those can be avoided.

    But I also don't want someone to feel that the only solution to have a running DeLorean is to dump K-Jetronic, or that an immediate switch is going to resolve all of their problems.
    When "converting" to EFI this is the single biggest problem. Whoever invests a LOT of time and effort in the programing generally won't share it and for good reason. That precludes any "standardization" and makes each install that much harder and more custom.
    David Teitelbaum

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