EFI made easy for the PRV... maybe??

[Spittybug]

I'm throwing the red bull shit flag on the field guys.

Read through the EFI sections of this board and see the sharing of the information, the discussions on converting a stock system, the calling for sharing of fuel and spark tables and other examples of "knowledge control". Look at the dates. The thanklessness of the task ultimately causes its demise.

Just read and see the amount of sharing that is going on before making claims of locking anyone out. Hell, at one point I was willing to make kits (and actually converted 2 other member's cars) but there wasn't enough interest by others.

FYI, I have spent $0 on a tuner or a dyno. My tables are pretty darn good and my car runs better than it did on a fully functional K-Jet system. Could it be even better? You bet. I could optimize the acceleration enhancement and fine tune the warm up parameters. The local tuner said he could do it for $450 if I wanted, FYI. He concurs with the general theme here; the problem is that people don't learn what they are getting into, don't have peripherals that are in good shape, are too lazy to put in the effort and then expect miracles out of him. He therefore usually charges $750 for the same service because he knows he's going to have to do a bunch of BS that he shouldn't have to........

[SamHill]

I'll just come out and say it: It is great that we have the support of the EFI group, but what I'd really prefer to see is a community-accepted standard for an EFI conversion. For the exact same reasons that I wanted it for carburetor conversions....

I agree and wish there was a general expansive book to follow. Both ways have undergone some further development from the starting point, I'm sure. If you're not planning on making a business out of it, I don't understand why one wouldn't share with the class, Spicoli.

[Bitsyncmaster]

If you're not planning on making a business out of it, I don't understand why one wouldn't share with the class, Spicoli.

+1
I think most owners are happy to share what they have learned.

[DMCVegas]

the problem is that people don't learn what they are getting into, don't have peripherals that are in good shape, are too lazy to put in the effort and then expect miracles out of him.

Truth be told, that's not merely a problem with people who convert to EFI. That's an issue, if not an outright concern, with any consumer product out there. And I understand that. If someone wants to buy something, they just expect it to work right away. IF that kind of "plug & play" ability is something that isn't possible, especially with an EFI conversion that has to be tuned, then there needs to be a simple as possible process for that to occur. Such as the number of aftermarket V8 EFI conversion kits which will self-tune without the need for a laptop. Or you simply need to present to the prospect that the conversion isn't a good match for them.

It's just like the old story an (alleged) former GM engineer told me: The electric starter wasn't some sort of humanitarian invention spurned by injuries of death. Cars were hard to start and way too complicated for the average person. So when it comes to sales, there are more dumb people with money they're willing to part with than there are smart people who have money they're willing to part with. A simple button instead of a crank was able to widen the appeal of the product to the masses.

So that convenience aspect is a big part of it. As is the concern about "locking people out". Now please understand that no one is accusing anyone in the EFI conversion realm of such a thing. Not in the least. But there have been echos of that type of concern in the past from other projects, and in particular carburetion is a prime example of that. So there is going to be a bit of skepticism to say the least because people don't want to go down that same path. The best way to overcome all of that is to get this kind of project accepted as a standard type of modification within the community.

What we need is a guide. The first step of which is to create a how-to on the physical installation of an EFI Conversion. This will comprise the following:

1. Tools required.
2. Parts and sensors required, including part numbers
3. Step by Step Instructions for the physical installation.

Once that is complete, we need said installation guide to then be broken down into 4 different installation types:

• Stock 2.8L PRV Cylinder Heads w/K-Jetronic Manifold. -Odd Fire
• Sock 3.0L Cylinder Heads & Manifold w/Ignition Distributor. -Even Fire
• Stock 3.0L Heads & Engine w/Distributorless/Waste Spark Ignition. -Even Fire
• Hybrid 2.8L PRV w/3.0L Cylinder heads w/Ignition Distributor. -Odd Fire

The second step is going to be the guide on how to tune the system. We can start with some fuel maps, and that's a great starting point. From there would be some great instructions on how to tune the system on your own to get it running optimally.

The biggest hurdle to overcome though is that it's not CARB certified. So such a conversion may still be of a concern to some of us who are on the west coast. Nevada still has far more strict emissions testing than California does. So one of the big concerns here for some would be emissions testing to ensure that the EFI conversion still runs clean. But again, that is the kind of information that many people need to have. If that can be put together and organized, then yes, you've got a good shot at widening the appeal of EFI conversions.

[Delorean Industries]

"The EPA will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word the president has dissolved the agency permanently. The last remnants of the climate concerned Republic have been swept away. "

[Drive Stainless]

Sharing the fuel table/warmup/acceleration/ignition table are only useful if:

• everyone agrees to use the same injectors
• everyone agrees to connect the MAP sensor to the same place
• everyone agrees whether to use a TPS, and if so, to the same extent
• everyone agrees on where to locate the intake air temp sensor
• everyone agrees to use the same or similar throttle body
• everyone agrees to use the same grade of gasoline
• everyone agrees to use a similar edition of Megasquirt having the same fuel/spark table resolution
• everyone agrees to the extent that the tune should be focused on performance vs fuel economy

Any variation in the above, and there will be variation in one or more of the configurable parameters. There are likely many more points that I'm forgetting.

[DMCVegas]

Sharing the fuel table/warmup/acceleration/ignition table are only useful if:

• everyone agrees to use the same injectors
• everyone agrees to connect the MAP sensor to the same place
• everyone agrees whether to use a TPS, and if so, to the same extent
• everyone agrees on where to locate the intake air temp sensor
• everyone agrees to use the same or similar throttle body
• everyone agrees to use the same grade of gasoline
• everyone agrees to use a similar edition of Megasquirt having the same fuel/spark table resolution
• everyone agrees to the extent that the tune should be focused on performance vs fuel economy

Any variation in the above, and there will be variation in one or more of the configurable parameters. There are likely many more points that I'm forgetting.

That is a damn good point, and exactly why we need to have standardized installation guide that defines specifically what parts MUST be used, and where they must be installed at.

[David T]

"The EPA will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word the president has dissolved the agency permanently. The last remnants of the climate concerned Republic have been swept away. "

Not in La La Land. I hear California wants to secede from the Union. Point is, any compliance issues are a State thing. Each owner must check with the Motor Vehicle agency in the State they live in and learn what the rules are. In most States, once the car is old enough, you can do what you want. Some States have varying rules as to how it is registered, how many miles you do etc. You would not want to modify the car and after spending all that money find out you can't pass inspection.

[Delorean Industries]

It was a Star Wars reference that i thought would be fitting...

[DMCVegas]

Not in La La Land. I hear California wants to secede from the Union. Point is, any compliance issues are a State thing. Each owner must check with the Motor Vehicle agency in the State they live in and learn what the rules are. In most States, once the car is old enough, you can do what you want. Some States have varying rules as to how it is registered, how many miles you do etc. You would not want to modify the car and after spending all that money find out you can't pass inspection.

Absolutely state rules will vary. Such as the example I gave of where California is no longer the most stringent of states when it comes to classic vehicles. Without getting political here, emissions rules have typically been that if CARB (California Air Resources Board) approves a vehicle or system, then the EPA will accept such certifications as Federal approval. Otherwise you have separate Federal regulations which can be applied to different classes of vehicles, or ones with drivetrain configurations not certified for operation out in the Golden State. Such vehicles are not allowed entry into California save for a 2 week visitation limit. So regardless of future policies or political schisms, California already has rules which supersede that of the Federal government on vehicle emissions.

Now while the 1970's was a massive transitional period of tightening fuel economy and emissions regulations which saw such variations in drivetrain configurations based upon their certifications, that isn't likely to ever happen again. Not only are those emissions programs with automakers still in progress for future vehicles, most of the cars we purchase are already part of global platforms. As such they are sold concurrently in other countries which can have stricter emissions, so it's cheaper to just maintain global compliance. Plus cleaner vehicles fit better with consumer tastes. So don't think that next year's cars are all gonna be installed without catalytic converters, or will roll coal right out of the factory.

Getting back on track to be DeLorean-specific, the future is also something you need to think about when it comes to such mods. Be it swapping a fuel delivery system, or an entire engine outright. Even once we overcome any worries about future support, we then have to consider worries about being 50-state compliant. You may not live in a state, or even a county right now that requires you to undergo emissions testing. But if you ever do move to an area where such testing is required, or you sell your car and it goes without you, that is a factor to consider.