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Thread: EFI Conversion Questions.

  1. #1
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Location:  Las Vegas

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    EFI Conversion Questions.

    Now that I'm finally back in Vegas, I'm anticipating on wrenching on my car to get her back on the road, starting either this winter or next spring. The bad news is the price of K-Jetronic parts. Between the basic list of major parts I need, along with the tools I need for K-Jet, and a buffer for miscellaneous supplies and items I may have missed, I'm looking at around $3,000 to repair the stock fuel injection system.

    So I'd like to look into an EFI conversion. Not just as potentially a cheaper alternative, but while I am comfortable with K-Jet, I've had too many problems with it and ethanol, and I'm admittedly a bit concerned with the pool of available replacement parts. Now I don't anticipate that this would be a complete "plug & play" conversion that doesn't require work. Reading the posts I understand about the work put in for fabrication, and most of all testing. I also am not in any hurry here to get the system running. But with that, I have some questions that I've not seen answered in the sticky threads, or the others I've browsed.

    1. Is there any turn-key kit that is available yet?

    I know that DPI has a conversion service, but it's $6K, and I'd have to ship the car off. I'd rather do this myself for both the savings, as well as the education from a hands-on experience. Not that I'm complaining, since I understand it would damn near be the same cost to have K-Jet repaired at a service center. But I like to DIY things.

    2. What is the average cost of an EFI Conversion?
    I have a target of $3K for K-Jet. Would EFI come in under that?

    3. Which would be the preferred engine to perform an EFI Conversion on?
    I would assume that the 3.0L PRV would be easier given that the manifold already has bungs for the injectors, and requires less fabrication. But am I wrong? Also, is there any reason that the 3.0 wouldn't be compatible with aftermarket exhausts like DPI's?

    4. If no full kit is available, is there at least a complete list of what automotive parts are needed for the conversion?

    Both parts, numbers, and available sources.

    5. Does anyone who has an EFI conversion have tailpipe emissions readings?
    I see the fuel maps and whatnot for tuning, but what I'm curious about is how clean the engines run since I would still be subject to emissions testing. Accordingly of course, I need to ensure the Evaporative emissions system is still in place, and I'll be running dual catalytic converters. But what about NOx and CO2 readings? Does anyone have any?

    I've always liked K-Jet because I understood it, but I feel that it's time to finally retire the system and move on to something more modern, and more reliable since it doesn't have as many failure points. If I can move on, I sure as hell will.

    Big thank you in advance to everyone.
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary

  2. #2
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,887

    My VIN:    01049

    I'll answer what I can, but it's been 5 years since I did my conversion, so I'm a little rusty on some of the setup.

    1. Outside of DPI's, there is nothing I am aware of. Most of us on here have used Megasquirt. It can be as easy or as difficult as you'd like depending on whether you get a pre-assembled ECU or not.

    2. I spent approximately $2,000 on my conversion, and that was a bit on the high side since I purchased an assembled ECU, and an EFI ready Renault manifold from Martin Gutkowski.

    3. I have no experience with the 3.0, but since everything is pretty much there already, I'm sure the setup would be a bit quicker. But the hardware isn't really the long part of the job; that would be the wiring and the tuning. The aftermarket exhausts will fit; people have done it.

    4. Somewhere on this site I have a PDF detailing how I did my conversion that contains most of that information. You'll get to know diyautotune.com very well.

    5. Sorry, I don't have a sniffer read out, so I can't help with this one.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  3. #3
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    All good information to know. Thank you indeed.

    There are a few questions I still have about the Z7X-711 & 715 3.0L engines. Little things like if the injector ports could handle alternative injectors, etc. I'm not too worried about emissions since unlike a static flow rate on a CIS injector or jet, I can manipulate the duty cycles of the electronic injectors.

    I found your write-up and I'm still going over it. Very much appreciated! But let me ask you an honest question: After 5 years, what is your impression of your EFI system? Not just how much tinkering has it required of you, but how reliable has it been? Are you still happy with the conversion?
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary

  4. #4
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

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    My VIN:    01049

    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    All good information to know. Thank you indeed.

    There are a few questions I still have about the Z7X-711 & 715 3.0L engines. Little things like if the injector ports could handle alternative injectors, etc. I'm not too worried about emissions since unlike a static flow rate on a CIS injector or jet, I can manipulate the duty cycles of the electronic injectors.

    I found your write-up and I'm still going over it. Very much appreciated! But let me ask you an honest question: After 5 years, what is your impression of your EFI system? Not just how much tinkering has it required of you, but how reliable has it been? Are you still happy with the conversion?
    Quite happy. Other than taking a while to get the tune right the first year I had it, I've had literally zero issues with it.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  5. #5
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

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    I too am quite happy with my conversion and I'd never go back to stock. I even sold my original engine that I was saving "just in case" I wanted to go back. I turn the key and go, the only issue I have is a slight stumble right when I start the engine cold, for about 10 seconds - fixable but I've just been too lazy to deal with it. Other than that, I am very comfortable with EFI, I am not concerned about breaking down and I don't even carry my laptop with me like I used to when I first did the conversion. As a bonus, there are far less points for fuel leaks, far more room, and many possibilities when it comes to tuning. You are able to pick and choose between different injectors [as long as they're EV1 or EV6], you're not limited to stock.

    The 3.0 would be an easy conversion, you swap the lower crankcase and drop it in. For me, I had a 2.8 B280F from a Volvo 780 sitting so my conversion was very cheap, only the cost of the ECU, Ford EDIS, LC-2 and some random parts like a TPS, upgraded injectors and a MAF [MAF isn't needed if you don't want to base your fueling off of an airflow sensor, I did and it saved me from having to tune a fuel table]. If you're not able to fabricate parts then you're looking at more cost (Crank sensor brackets, I made a custom ECU tray to replace the stock ECU tray behind the driver seat, etc.) My car has much more power compared to the prior engine. It runs much smoother than the odd-fire original engine. While there might not be hundreds here, there are quite a few of us who can help you through a conversion. I do have a write-up and wiring diagram created, but it's on my laptop and hasn't been posted to the forum yet - I'll look into this in the next few days if you're interested in it.

    I cannot comment on cost, I am pretty sure for me it was under $1000 but again, I had almost everything I needed. I can provide a list of what sensors or parts I used along with numbers and where you can get them, as Mike said - DIY was a big shopping experience, but also eBay was a source of some parts. I too do not have exhaust readings, all I have is what the ECU provides me as far as readings from the O2 sensor.
    Last edited by dn010; 09-27-2017 at 10:03 AM.
    -----Dan B.

  6. #6
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,887

    My VIN:    01049

    So, in short - you won't regret it! And if something does go wrong, it is SO much easier to diagnose. Just hook up your laptop, open your tuning program, and you'll see right away which sensor isn't working.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  7. #7
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    517

    My VIN:    10270

    A few notes having completed a conversion last Sunday:

    On a stock motor, a fuel-only conversion using Megasquirt would be fairly easy and inexpensive, even with all brand new parts. Possibly a one day project if everything is in good shape.

    Fuel only needs:
    From DIYautotune:
    -ECU: Megasquirt 2 is sufficient for fuel only
    -Wiring harness
    -Coolant temp sensor
    -Air temp sensor
    -Idle air valve (DIY sells a stepper motor style IAC valve kit with fittings but any MS compatible valve works. Most valves are)

    From elsewhere:
    -Stock narrowband sensor is fine but a wideband will make tuning much easier
    -Injectors and connectors - any 24lb takeoffs will work. See my thread RE "EV12" injectors for a great albeit slightly less easy option
    -Fuel rails - these come undrilled and you'd need the proper bit
    -Fuel hose and adapters. IMHO this should all be Eaton/Aeroquip or comparable and not "go to Summit, tick fuel hose, and sort by cheapest".
    --Unless you've worked with AN hose before you'll need appropriate tools
    -Various bits of metal for bracketry

    Things I've not really seen addressed in the writeups but aren't complex:
    -PCV
    -Fuel vapor canister
    You will need to remove the cold start tube for the fuel rails to fit. Do not remove these systems in the name of simplicity. Kjet runs the both in a "fixed orifice" arrangement which you can preserve for simplicity
    I shortened my cold start tube and installed a barbed fitting, then used emissions hose and vacuum T's to create an analog to stock.


    Fuel with spark control:
    -Same as above but with the distributor weights locked and the distributor body advanced. MS then electrically retards timing and you can program the ignition maps.


    Intentionally Added Complexity:
    My setup runs Megasquirt 3 with the "Extended" add on board (aka MS3X). It includes a variety of parts custom built or sourced from other DMC folks. On an odd-fire B28F I am running fully sequential injection and fully programmable ignition. I'm also running an intercooled turbo with water injection control.

    -Crankshaft position sensor, with pickup ring welded on to factory crank pulley.
    -Camshaft position sensor - the stock VR trigger for the Bosch module is gone and a homebrewed "50/50" pickup is installed.
    The combination of these two tells Megasquirt where the crank is with some precision and which "phase" the oddfire motor is in so it can run in full sequential mode.
    -External MAP sensor. MS2 and MS3 have built-in, but this lets me mount the MAP sensor in the engine bay and have a little more precision.
    -Adjustable PCV valve - allows for better PCV than the stock orifice
    -Throttle position sensor - better tip-in enrichment tuning and a host of other things that can be triggered based on throttle angle

    Other stuff the 3X is doing:
    -AC control - call for AC is routed through megasquirt. Fans will not kick on if the engine is off, AC is shut down at high loads.
    -Fan control - MS controls cooling fan on/off. Will eventually add a vehicle speed sensor so fans can be disabled entirely at highway speeds.
    -Boost control - Not yet but once I have a base tune ready I will add on programmable and per-gear boost control
    -Knock sensor - because data. Not honestly sure how useful this will be. Resonant knock frequency is about 6.1Khz but an untuned knock strategy will false constantly. On a non-turbo motor I doubt that a knock sensor is useful in the slightest.


    Tuning:
    I am transitioning from theory to practice. I'm going to road tune today, tomorrow, and then go on a 600 mile trip on Friday. Until then I claim ignorance.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  8. #8
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

    Posts:    1,887

    My VIN:    01049

    Well aren't we just Mr. Fancy-pants?

    I bet you have a mustache!
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  9. #9
    Nothing witty here lest it offend
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Posts:    855

    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    fairly easy
    equations.jpg

    Caveman.JPG
    Last edited by SamHill; 09-27-2017 at 01:59 PM.

  10. #10
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,175

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    Regarding IAC above - that isn't entirely true. If my memory is fine, you can do a mod to the main board to run a PWM idle motor, such as the stock DeLorean idle speed motor, for both MS2 & MS3. If you get MS3X, which I too have, you don't need any modifications and you can run PWM along with the above mentioned AC and fan control (which is very nice to have by the way!). I am running the stock idle speed motor from the Volvo Bertone, the same one will work in place of the stock D's so if I were to plug it in, it will run just fine once it is properly "tuned".

    PCV is "as is" from the Bertone and the 780 also uses the exact same carbon canister so that also remains the same.

    Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.
    Last edited by dn010; 09-27-2017 at 02:10 PM.
    -----Dan B.

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