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Thread: EFI Conversion Questions.

  1. #11
    Not a DeLorean Guru
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Rochester, NY

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    I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  2. #12
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

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    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    I bet you have a mustache!
    I cannot grow a mustache. It brings great shame to my family.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamHill View Post
    Haha, fair enough.

    My philosophy: Difficulty describes things that are complicated and things that are laborious.

    A fuel-only install is mostly laborious. It's been done many times so there aren't very many mysterious to solve. A lot of problems can be solved with money, including the entire tuning process. It works with the factory K-jet manifold and throttle. You just gut the meter unit and plug holes.

    It does help to have an understanding of how EFI works and the role that each component plays. There are some good books on the subject. If you look at the entire system as a black box with wires going everywhere its intimidating AF.

    If you gave me a carburetor I couldn't tell you what end is the kazasperator and where you connect the chokulon.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

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  3. #13
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post

    If you gave me a carburetor I couldn't tell you what end is the kazasperator and where you connect the chokulon.

    That made me laugh. I'm fortunate enough to have started with carburetors but of course none of them on the D.
    -----Dan B.

  4. #14
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.
    For me if I put another motor in it needs to be properly built for boost and keeping the B28F keeps me from chasing down that rabbit hole. They're less shaky if you set the idle at the Volvo spec 900 RPM

    TBH if this motor comes out there is a low probability of another PRV engine going back in unless the price is really, really right.

    There hasn't been much talk about fully controlled odd fire motors, just wanted to post my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.
    During the first start I have no trouble getting the stepper to work and affect immediate changes when the # of steps was altered. Bench testing proved to me that there are innumerable ways to incorrectly drive the stepper. Time will tell.

    I could totally see adapting the stock valve and using it, it would be easy to do and you could keep a similar mounting point. I purchased my MS parts in a lot that had the stepper unit, so I sold my DMC idle valve instead.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  5. #15
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    For me if I put another motor in it needs to be properly built for boost
    The B280F has cross bolted mains to help with that.

    All joking around aside, it is up to what Robert can/can't do or what he does/doesn't decide. A good point is, there are many, many options to choose from.
    -----Dan B.

  6. #16
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    540

    My VIN:    10270

    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    I'm running the stock DeLorean PWM idle valve, and it works out real nice. Much easier to tune than a stepper motor.
    Just to champion the stepper IAC cause again... because everybody needs to believe in something... tonight I started the tuning process and decided to get fancy idle control going.

    I was able to find the IAC stepper lower & upper limits and had closed loop idle control running in about 4 minutes. BOOYAH!
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  7. #17
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
    Join Date:  Oct 2011

    Location:  Las Vegas

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    Club(s):   (DOA) (DCUK)

    First off, I cannot thank everyone enough for the responses. You've no idea how much they are appreciated!

    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    Quite happy. Other than taking a while to get the tune right the first year I had it, I've had literally zero issues with it.
    That's one of the big things I was curious about. I've always been a big booster of K-Jet, but the last two years my car was on the road I started having lots of trouble with it when I reflect upon it. Just eating up the O-rings in the CPR, the diaphragm in the Accumulator, clogging/deteriorating injectors, and the fuel pump boot that just turned to mush. I've no idea if DMCH's all-in-one fuel pump would work with EFI given it's much higher pressures, but I definitely want to eliminate as much rubber and steel from the system as possible. I don't mind K-Jetronic, and it worked great for a long time. But as soon as I started to see Ethanol blends is when I started to have problems. We had MTBE before that with no issues.

    Still yet though, seeing the lack of complaints popping up in the support threads here was something that really stood out to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    The 3.0 would be an easy conversion, you swap the lower crankcase and drop it in. For me, I had a 2.8 B280F from a Volvo 780 sitting so my conversion was very cheap, only the cost of the ECU, Ford EDIS, LC-2 and some random parts like a TPS, upgraded injectors and a MAF [MAF isn't needed if you don't want to base your fueling off of an airflow sensor, I did and it saved me from having to tune a fuel table]. If you're not able to fabricate parts then you're looking at more cost (Crank sensor brackets, I made a custom ECU tray to replace the stock ECU tray behind the driver seat, etc.) My car has much more power compared to the prior engine. It runs much smoother than the odd-fire original engine. While there might not be hundreds here, there are quite a few of us who can help you through a conversion. I do have a write-up and wiring diagram created, but it's on my laptop and hasn't been posted to the forum yet - I'll look into this in the next few days if you're interested in it.
    Ease of installation is what I'm shooting for. I'd rather spend more time troubleshooting and tuning that constantly fabricating. The big starting question of course if I opt for the 3.0L is where can I get a trigger ring at? Does someone already sell them? I do see that DPI sells an injector & fuel rail kit for the K-Jet heads.


    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    Unless cost is prohibiting you, I'd suggest to get rid of the shaky odd-fire engine and go with the 3.0 or 2.8 even fire engine. If yours runs well, you can even sell it to recover at least $1K.
    Again, the ease of simplicity is what I'm going for. I suppose that I do lose a bit of performance with even-fire given that there are no performance cams for those engines. But the higher compression, displacement, & better flowing heads should make up for that. If I wanted high performance, I'd look to turbos or an outright swap. For now a reliable NA engine suits me just fine.

    When going for an even-fire swap, which would be more preferable? The 2.8L B280F from the Volvo 780, or the 3.0L Z7X-711/Z7X-715 from the Premier/Monaco? Even better question, has anyone successfully grafted the serpentine belt over to the DeLorean's accessories?

    As of right now, I've got 2 complete PRVs, both from DeLoreans. One with a blown head gasket, and the other should be fine. Although it has a borked exhaust manifold stud that was drilled out resulting in a mangled hole from some past mechanic (so I doubt it'll ever work with a stock exhaust again). 1 complete K-Jet setup, a second setup only missing a WUR, 6 spare CIS Injectors, and 1 or two spare dummy bearing kits. Then of course whatever other leftover parts I have remaining after the swap.


    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Just to champion the stepper IAC cause again... because everybody needs to believe in something... tonight I started the tuning process and decided to get fancy idle control going.

    I was able to find the IAC stepper lower & upper limits and had closed loop idle control running in about 4 minutes. BOOYAH!
    And that's the kind of results I like to hear about, as well as the more advanced options you have as well. For the EFI conversion, I'd like to give myself about a year to get the actual conversion in place and completed while restoring the rest of the car and balancing work & school.
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary

  8. #18
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

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    There are some conversions that still use the serpentine belt so that shouldn't be an issue. Also, DPI can grind the even-fire cams so there are "performance" options [http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?14...ght=even-fire].

    I'm sure there are a few here also willing to help you out with the trigger ring as far as welding it on - shouldn't be a problem and they're available from DIYautotune or other places like eBay.

    If I had a choice, I'd have gone with the 3.0 however I had the 2.8 sitting here so it was a no brainer. The two things I do not know about is if the 3.0 has cross bolted mains and if it has the oil cooler on. The mains aren't a big deal and I'm not sure if the oil cooler is either but I kept it installed when I swapped to my car. I will put a turbo on this engine IF I don't decide to swap to something else later on.

    Lastly, don't stress about the fuel pump. Whether it is stock or DMCH all-in-one, EFI requires much less pressure than K-Jet.


    EDIT: I forgot to add, as far as how well the heads flow - I don't know about the 3.0 but the 2.8 really needs to have the exhaust ports opened up. You can run the way it is but if you open up the ports it is a difference, at least I noticed a difference anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    First off, I cannot thank everyone enough for the responses. You've no idea how much they are appreciated!



    That's one of the big things I was curious about. I've always been a big booster of K-Jet, but the last two years my car was on the road I started having lots of trouble with it when I reflect upon it. Just eating up the O-rings in the CPR, the diaphragm in the Accumulator, clogging/deteriorating injectors, and the fuel pump boot that just turned to mush. I've no idea if DMCH's all-in-one fuel pump would work with EFI given it's much higher pressures, but I definitely want to eliminate as much rubber and steel from the system as possible. I don't mind K-Jetronic, and it worked great for a long time. But as soon as I started to see Ethanol blends is when I started to have problems. We had MTBE before that with no issues.

    Still yet though, seeing the lack of complaints popping up in the support threads here was something that really stood out to me.




    Ease of installation is what I'm shooting for. I'd rather spend more time troubleshooting and tuning that constantly fabricating. The big starting question of course if I opt for the 3.0L is where can I get a trigger ring at? Does someone already sell them? I do see that DPI sells an injector & fuel rail kit for the K-Jet heads.




    Again, the ease of simplicity is what I'm going for. I suppose that I do lose a bit of performance with even-fire given that there are no performance cams for those engines. But the higher compression, displacement, & better flowing heads should make up for that. If I wanted high performance, I'd look to turbos or an outright swap. For now a reliable NA engine suits me just fine.

    When going for an even-fire swap, which would be more preferable? The 2.8L B280F from the Volvo 780, or the 3.0L Z7X-711/Z7X-715 from the Premier/Monaco? Even better question, has anyone successfully grafted the serpentine belt over to the DeLorean's accessories?

    As of right now, I've got 2 complete PRVs, both from DeLoreans. One with a blown head gasket, and the other should be fine. Although it has a borked exhaust manifold stud that was drilled out resulting in a mangled hole from some past mechanic (so I doubt it'll ever work with a stock exhaust again). 1 complete K-Jet setup, a second setup only missing a WUR, 6 spare CIS Injectors, and 1 or two spare dummy bearing kits. Then of course whatever other leftover parts I have remaining after the swap.




    And that's the kind of results I like to hear about, as well as the more advanced options you have as well. For the EFI conversion, I'd like to give myself about a year to get the actual conversion in place and completed while restoring the rest of the car and balancing work & school.
    Last edited by dn010; 09-28-2017 at 10:03 AM.
    -----Dan B.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Josh's Avatar
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    I can make a trigger wheel for a 3.0 if you go that route. I require the crank pulley, I weld on the trigger ring, and make a mount for the crank position sensor. The sensor is to be used in conjunction with EDIS

  10. #20
    Back to the Omnipresent! Spittybug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post
    Now that I'm finally back in Vegas, I'm anticipating on wrenching on my car to get her back on the road, starting either this winter or next spring. The bad news is the price of K-Jetronic parts. Between the basic list of major parts I need, along with the tools I need for K-Jet, and a buffer for miscellaneous supplies and items I may have missed, I'm looking at around $3,000 to repair the stock fuel injection system.

    So I'd like to look into an EFI conversion. Not just as potentially a cheaper alternative, but while I am comfortable with K-Jet, I've had too many problems with it and ethanol, and I'm admittedly a bit concerned with the pool of available replacement parts. Now I don't anticipate that this would be a complete "plug & play" conversion that doesn't require work. Reading the posts I understand about the work put in for fabrication, and most of all testing. I also am not in any hurry here to get the system running. But with that, I have some questions that I've not seen answered in the sticky threads, or the others I've browsed.

    1. Is there any turn-key kit that is available yet?

    I know that DPI has a conversion service, but it's $6K, and I'd have to ship the car off. I'd rather do this myself for both the savings, as well as the education from a hands-on experience. Not that I'm complaining, since I understand it would damn near be the same cost to have K-Jet repaired at a service center. But I like to DIY things.

    2. What is the average cost of an EFI Conversion?
    I have a target of $3K for K-Jet. Would EFI come in under that?

    3. Which would be the preferred engine to perform an EFI Conversion on?
    I would assume that the 3.0L PRV would be easier given that the manifold already has bungs for the injectors, and requires less fabrication. But am I wrong? Also, is there any reason that the 3.0 wouldn't be compatible with aftermarket exhausts like DPI's?

    4. If no full kit is available, is there at least a complete list of what automotive parts are needed for the conversion?

    Both parts, numbers, and available sources.

    5. Does anyone who has an EFI conversion have tailpipe emissions readings?
    I see the fuel maps and whatnot for tuning, but what I'm curious about is how clean the engines run since I would still be subject to emissions testing. Accordingly of course, I need to ensure the Evaporative emissions system is still in place, and I'll be running dual catalytic converters. But what about NOx and CO2 readings? Does anyone have any?

    I've always liked K-Jet because I understood it, but I feel that it's time to finally retire the system and move on to something more modern, and more reliable since it doesn't have as many failure points. If I can move on, I sure as hell will.

    Big thank you in advance to everyone.

    Did you look at the stickies?????? Lots of your questions answered.
    Owen
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