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Thread: EFI Conversion Questions.

  1. #21
    Junior Member
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    EFI Conversion

    This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s

  2. #22
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lough Shore Man View Post
    This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s
    This is the European version of the B280F engine I am using. The European B280E has more power, I believe due to higher flowing heads, different cams and also higher compression. The US version is different because of emissions from what I understand.
    -----Dan B.

  3. #23
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spittybug View Post
    Did you look at the stickies?????? Lots of your questions answered.
    Indeed I did. What I was looking for in some cases were specific parts numbers and a complete list of them. I also wanted to know more about the long-term results of EFI conversions. The experiences with the it from both reliability, as well as if there was to be any sort of perpetual tinkering involved. To which it doesn't sound like there is any, because that was a big concern for me. It is a bit intimidating still, but not because of the hardware. I'm not worried about wiring up the engine, but more with the choosing of Megasquirt products and which to choose as well as the tuning of the engine. But just with the answers asked so far, they have taken a decent amount of uncertainty out of the process. Yes the stickies have indeed helped a great deal with understanding both components, as well as the common problems that can arise with tuning. From a shared ground to securing the TPS to stop inaccurate variations in reporting data. Even with all of this, I'm still more comfortable with my understanding of EFI than I am a carburetor.

    Make no mistake though. While I will be asking for help, I'm not going to rely upon other people doing all the work for me. I.e. asking others for answers when they may be already answered in documented materials. Especially just asking what to do next instead of attempting to follow the instructions. Having said that, believe me that I'm grateful for all info and advice given now, and in the future.

    To tell the truth the final straw came last week when I took my other car in for an oil change to an independent garage. I spoke with the mechanics about working on a DeLorean, and they said they'd have no problem doing anything on the car, except for working on the fuel injection system. The guy said they routinely turn away Volvos and any other cars that use K-Jetronic because of the ever increasing difficulty of tuning the systems, and the return rates from customers. Brake work, A/C retrofits, electrical troubleshooting, engine work, nothing was off limits for the DeLorean except for the stock fuel system. There *might* be a couple of exotic shops in town that will touch it, but the willingness to support CIS is waning. That was when I knew it was time for a change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lough Shore Man View Post
    This is a conversion I did on one of my cars.. Used a B28 E engine and installed an Emerald System made in the UK..


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRdHDRQPck&t=16s
    Now that is one of the videos I've been looking for; hearing how much quieter the PRV runs without the screams of the damned courtesy of K-Jet. Given that I'm stateside, I'd probably opt for Megasquirt instead because of the support for it. But it's quite reassuring to see how well engines and mechanics take to aftermarket EFI.
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary

  4. #24
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    If you can afford it, spring for the MS3X. If all else fails, you can no undoubtedly get your money back from reselling it. I can tell you, even when my tune was at its worst, even when I had some made up 'lets start here' tables, I could STILL drive the car. I am running EDIS with megasquirt. The great thing about it is if anything fails, the MS ECU is smart enough to get you home. Even EDIS has a limp mode if you lose your crank sensor. Get some clogged jets with a carb? No go. With EFI you won't be stranded. You won't be frustrated in the end. If my TPS goes out, MS will base off of the other operational sensors (I will even disconnect my TPS tomorrow to see what happens for you!)

    To be honest, my biggest problem getting my tune was entering the injector info, I ended up buying a set of graduated cylinders in order to determine my injector parameters! I could drive the car but at low RPMs I would get horrible misfiring. After fixing the injector info and adjusting my timing, smooth sailing since.

    It is too bad you weren't located closer. This was the most exciting thing I've done to my D, I'd love to do it again!
    -----Dan B.

  5. #25
    DMC Midwest - 815.459.6439 DMCMW Dave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCVegas View Post

    To tell the truth the final straw came last week when I took my other car in for an oil change to an independent garage. I spoke with the mechanics about working on a DeLorean, and they said they'd have no problem doing anything on the car, except for working on the fuel injection system. The guy said they routinely turn away Volvos and any other cars that use K-Jetronic because of the ever increasing difficulty of tuning the systems, and the return rates from customers.

    .
    I suspect that if you asked the same guys if they'd work on an aftermarket, home-engineered/installed, undocumented EFI system, they would also have turned you away. Whether or not it was a DeLorean.
    Dave S
    DMC Midwest - retired but helping
    dswingle@DeLorean.com

  6. #26
    Senior Member DMCVegas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMCMW Dave View Post
    I suspect that if you asked the same guys if they'd work on an aftermarket, home-engineered/installed, undocumented EFI system, they would also have turned you away. Whether or not it was a DeLorean.
    You're absolutely correct. I even suspect that if I were to bring such a system to your garage and requested for you to work on it, you too would decline. And that's ok.

    I'm quite comfortable with K-Jetronic itself. I understand the operating theory of the system. I know how the LAMBDA system interacts with it for fine-tuning emissions. How the Idle Speed ECU and motor are crucial to cold starts. I know how to troubleshoot the system for various symptoms. I know how to use the various tools to check for leaks, check for spray patterns, ensure rest pressures, clean nozzles, and verify flow rates to balance the distributor. I also understand how to tune the system. Not that nonsense about using dwell, but actually setting the static engine temps and high-idle RPM for setting the actual CO as per the Workshop Manual. Something I could even do with an integrated LC-2 unit utilizing a wideband O2 sensor.

    It isn't that I can't get K-Jet running, or that I want something that I *hope* I can more easily farm out to a mechanic to deal with. Because the responsibility will be all mine. I have concerns about the longevity of K-Jetronic. The first thing is the skyrocketing prices for K-Jetronic parts. Yes, I know, inflation affects us all. But I've seen the prices for K-Jet parts go from about $1,200 over the years to now almost $2,500. Again, not including the tools I need and misc. consumables which will shoot the price up over $3K for me. Now I'm not trying to get cheap. If I need to spend the money, I'm going to spend the money. But damn. How much is this going to keep costing me?

    I also do not know about the longevity of our parts supply for the car. I've heard rumors in the past about the quality of replacement parts (especially when people claim they can "clean" or "refurbish" injectors with sonic cleaners), and concerns about the outright availability of parts in the future. Which if they do become more scarce, I can only imagine prices going even higher. While owning my car, only DeLorean mechanics have ever worked on it. Yet I still have had problems with components failing. From injectors randomly going bad, to rubber rotting. Specifically fuel-related ones because of Ethanol. Things I'm not experiencing on other EFI cars I own. Apples to Oranges comparison? You bet. But still, I'm not seeing improvements to K-Jet to prevent these kinds of problems. Nor are others who have completed this conversion. Which is also key. The success stories aren't just with DeLoreans, but all many cars as wells.

    Will this affect the resale value of my car? Yep. Most likely in a negative way since there is no comfort of taking the car to any garage to fix. Although with standardized equipment used in this conversion at least, there are probably some tuning shops that could help. Although to be fair I'm not counting on them, nor anyone else. I'm alone out here without any local garages to support me. I know this going into this project. If it doesn't work out, well, I can always revert back to K-Jet. But hey, I'm going to give it a chance. What have I got to loose?
    Robert

    Board Member, DeLorean Owners Association



    Recording Secretary

  7. #27
    Senior Member NckT's Avatar
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    I must be an odd-ball as I love K-Jet and find it easy to fix.

    I've never heard it 'scream' as noted. It does have a high pitched sound from the injectors but this is not overheard from the running engine sound.

    For fixing K jet all you need is a fuel pressure gauge. Modern 'mechanics' probably don't like it due to lack of fault code reader diagnostics or that is not a basic bolt on carburettor that would have familiarity.

    For all that decide to change to efi or carbs (which is up to the owner of course); I hope that the original k jet items are not thrown, away but at least passed to owners clubs/ dealers for bulk reconditioning to give better availability for those who want to retain k-jet
    Last edited by NckT; 10-01-2017 at 08:21 AM.
    RIP Rob van de Veer Top bloke

    I say Sir, I must be mad, one loves fixing K-Jet !

    Make sure there's plenty in the tank for the weekend chaps....

  8. #28
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
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    I just completed a 500+ mile maiden voyage on MS3X. I Roughed in (that's roughed with a capital R) a fuel map before leaving and abused autotune and the highway and through some squirrly northern MI roads to further trim the fat.

    The ability to just immediately target and make changes was really something. There's nothing new about any of this, but it's new to me, and certainly more capable than even what the UTCIS was able to do for my unique setup.

    For example, my wife and I would be cruising down the highway at 75-80. I'd glance over and see AFRs of high 13's.

    "Honey, can you open my laptop, find the target AFR cells we're floating around and set them and all the cells to the left to 14.5, and turn on autotune for a minute?"
    "Sure"
    *tapity tap tap*
    1/4 mile later, cruising AFRs are now 14.5:1
    "Ok, you can close the laptop now, thanks a bunch"

    or

    "The motor is oscillating right here. Are any of the gauges other than RPM and AFR swinging back and forth?"
    "nope"
    Ok, can you open VE table and see if the target is spinning around a cell that doesn't seem to fit in with it's neighbors?"
    "Yes, there's a number here that a lot lower than the surrounding ones"
    "Ok, select the whole block it's spinning in and hit the slash key"
    *oscillation disappears*
    "Awesome, thanks. What's for lunch?"
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  9. #29
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    I've never had any positive experiences with AutoTune, it always changed the numbers the wrong way and made things much worse for my tune. In my opinion, it wasn't worth the extra $.
    -----Dan B.

  10. #30
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
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    I've heard that sentiment before but I have no complaints. I'm sure the algorithms are under continuous improvement as well. It definitely made things easier with an inexperienced copilot! I just set up sensible filters along with progressively stepping down the cell change resistance to progressively fine-tune during the weekend.

    The final map will probably be hand tailored but it was invaluable for roughing in a driveable VE map in short order.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

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