SPLIT FROM -- Carburetor Troubles...Car is Completely Useless

[Farrar]

If Ron is Bill, and Chad is Robert, and Andrew is Chad ... am I still me? If not, can I convince whoever it is to go to the gym? I'd like these last twenty pounds to be gone by the time I'm me again, thanks. :P

[DeLoreanGirl]

Yes, I am a real person. I bought the car from Chad and I believe him when he says that wasn't the carburetor that it left with. I think the shop sent the carburetor out to be rebuilt and got this one back in exchange and are now denying it.

Chad told me as well that he didn't make the linkage setup for it. It came from Bill, so it made sense to ask him for help. Chad had told me that Bill wouldn't help, but I hoped he would be able to fix my linkage issue. Chad was right. Bill refused to help, even though it's his setup. I don't know what it's supposed to be like and can't fix it myself. I get the idea of what it should do, I think, but I don't know how to make it work like it's supposed to.

Since Bill has said that he's not helping because it's Chad's fault, I didn't know where else to turn to. I just want to enjoy my car.

[Farrar]

I also offered to help you, but you didn't contact me after I gave you Bill's contact info, so I assumed that you had the information you needed.

I didn't know where else to turn to. I just want to enjoy my car.

If this is the attitude you gave Bill, then I'm not surprised he had little time for you. He's not going to explain stuff to you like you're five. He's going to assume you have done your homework and just need him to point you in the right direction.

If you refuse help from those who offer it, and then complain about the help you get when you ask, and instead of trying to troubleshoot you throw your hands up and complain that everything sucks and nothing is right, then you may find that people become reticent to offer advice.

Perhaps a 36-year-old non-running antique sports car from a company that folded in 1982 was not a good choice for your first vehicle. But then I am not young enough to know everything.

[DMCVegas]

Not to rain on your conspiracy theory parade, but she's a real owner. She was at the DMCMW open house. I even saw her and Chad at the same time. And no, I'm not Chad either...maybe Ron is Chad. :-)

Well then I stand corrected, and I offer my sincerest apologies. The conflicting reports however still stand, and I'm not even going to get involved in on that dog pile.

Your viewpoint doesn't make sense.

On the contrary, I simply don't believe that you're seeing things from the correct viewpoint. Allow me to explain: Remove yourself and your skills and knowledge from the situation, and see things from the position of a person who doesn't have as much past experience, if any at all, with fuel delivery systems. With all three of the other systems I mentioned, these offer both large, diverse support groups, and even hard documentation in print to guide with the installation & tuning for the systems. This is the kind of support that an owner, or even an unfamiliar mechanic needs. Something sorely missing from these ad hoc carb kits. But we'll touch more on that later.

First, let's address the 3 systems in question.

With any if the 3 options listed, tuning will still be needed.

No argument there, but I've no idea where in the world you're getting the idea that I'm claiming that there is none needed.

Kjet has a duel muxture adjustment

What in the world are you talking about? Stock K-Jetronic has only a single adjustment screw. The flow rates which make up the engine's fuel map were already pre-determined by BOSCH, and are executed by the components working in tandem. Tuning the system itself is actually extremely simple. The big problem is really that most owners simply refuse to follow the instructions contained inside of the Workshop Manual to apply a precise tune. But still, there is only a single adjustment screw. If you're tinkering with more than that, you're doing something wrong.

EFI requires some skill to get running correctly

Certainly it isn't a "Plug & Play" solution per se, but the tuning process really isn't that hard. The most difficult portion of an EFI installation (which I myself will most likely be undertaking) is simply wiring up the sensors and components. That is complicated because it requires the individual to possess the ability to read schematics, use a multimeter, and have the tools and know-how of how to terminate the needed engine harness. But tuning? Nope. Aside from some pretty damn good documentation of performing a conversion and how to use the software, you have support from other owners and the entire aftermarket community at large. Even then there are many tuner shops that for a fee will perform the tuning on a Megasquirt (or other EFI system) for you. So tuning EFI to create your fuel map is literally the least of your worries.

finding and tuning the rare carb setup will be more difficult than tuning what is on the car now. Running a carb doesn't mean that there is no documentation or guidance. Running a carb means that you just have to find the documentation on the carb you're using.

It might be more difficult, but there is documentation available for the installation of the Holley unit and adapting it to the PRV. And that's a whole helluva lot more than I can say about these homemade conversions. As for guidance, let's talk about that...

I've used Holleys, Quadrajets, Edelbrock/Carter AFBs, Carter WCFBs, and a Carter WCFB 2x4 setup. The same basic principles apply to all of them. Documebtation on carb swaps isn't needed because they're simple to figure out and the info is already out there.

Again this is how it may be easy for you, but that doesn't apply to everyone else. Just as you might be more comfortable with carburetors, I'm more comfortable with mechanical fuel injection and EFI because they're what I grew up on. They're what I know. Tuning a carb is a helluva lot more than just listening to it. Which for the record, you cannot do. If you could, Delco, Rotunda, and MoPar would have sold acoustic tuning devices a long time ago. You have to set your mixtures for idle, fast idle, and WOT. And that's after you properly jet the whole damn thing. Otherwise you end up with lean idles with high NO_x levels, and ok fast idle. OR you have ok idle emissions and high HCs on the fast idle. Because as it turns out, despite your engine type, you always have to have some sort of fuel map for the thing. And even if you don't care about emissions, with those kind of results, you still risk internal damage to the engine.

But that is your knowledge. Mine tells me that rather than having to tear a carb apart to swap jets, a couple of mouse clicks can allow me to change the entire duty cycle of an EFI injector to adjust the fuel map accordingly. But still, there's the problem: We're basing that off of our own knowledge, and not adapting to the needs of someone with less than we have. That is where the options need to be presented properly.

In the end, this whole bullshit attitude of telling someone with a carburetor problem that the information they need is out there, so they're responsible for their own success needs to stop. That's not what this community is about. As I first told Bill years ago, there needs to be a specific "how-to" guide on these conversions so that individuals have a step-by-step procedure in their hands to get their cars running. No one should have to rely upon having to kiss someone else's ass in order to get support. If Chad had that kind of a resource available to him then, this car wouldn't have any problems right now, and this conversation wouldn't even have happened. But there you go.

[dmruschell]

Well then I stand corrected, and I offer my sincerest apologies. The conflicting reports however still stand, and I'm not even going to get involved in on that dog pile.




On the contrary, I simply don't believe that you're seeing things from the correct viewpoint. Allow me to explain: Remove yourself and your skills and knowledge from the situation, and see things from the position of a person who doesn't have as much past experience, if any at all, with fuel delivery systems. With all three of the other systems I mentioned, these offer both large, diverse support groups, and even hard documentation in print to guide with the installation & tuning for the systems. This is the kind of support that an owner, or even an unfamiliar mechanic needs. Something sorely missing from these ad hoc carb kits. But we'll touch more on that later.

First, let's address the 3 systems in question.




No argument there, but I've no idea where in the world you're getting the idea that I'm claiming that there is none needed.




What in the world are you talking about? Stock K-Jetronic has only a single adjustment screw. The flow rates which make up the engine's fuel map were already pre-determined by BOSCH, and are executed by the components working in tandem. Tuning the system itself is actually extremely simple. The big problem is really that most owners simply refuse to follow the instructions contained inside of the Workshop Manual to apply a precise tune. But still, there is only a single adjustment screw. If you're tinkering with more than that, you're doing something wrong.




Certainly it isn't a "Plug & Play" solution per se, but the tuning process really isn't that hard. The most difficult portion of an EFI installation (which I myself will most likely be undertaking) is simply wiring up the sensors and components. That is complicated because it requires the individual to possess the ability to read schematics, use a multimeter, and have the tools and know-how of how to terminate the needed engine harness. But tuning? Nope. Aside from some pretty damn good documentation of performing a conversion and how to use the software, you have support from other owners and the entire aftermarket community at large. Even then there are many tuner shops that for a fee will perform the tuning on a Megasquirt (or other EFI system) for you. So tuning EFI to create your fuel map is literally the least of your worries.




It might be more difficult, but there is documentation available for the installation of the Holley unit and adapting it to the PRV. And that's a whole helluva lot more than I can say about these homemade conversions. As for guidance, let's talk about that...




Again this is how it may be easy for you, but that doesn't apply to everyone else. Just as you might be more comfortable with carburetors, I'm more comfortable with mechanical fuel injection and EFI because they're what I grew up on. They're what I know. Tuning a carb is a helluva lot more than just listening to it. Which for the record, you cannot do. If you could, Delco, Rotunda, and MoPar would have sold acoustic tuning devices a long time ago. You have to set your mixtures for idle, fast idle, and WOT. And that's after you properly jet the whole damn thing. Otherwise you end up with lean idles with high NO_x levels, and ok fast idle. OR you have ok idle emissions and high HCs on the fast idle. Because as it turns out, despite your engine type, you always have to have some sort of fuel map for the thing. And even if you don't care about emissions, with those kind of results, you still risk internal damage to the engine.

But that is your knowledge. Mine tells me that rather than having to tear a carb apart to swap jets, a couple of mouse clicks can allow me to change the entire duty cycle of an EFI injector to adjust the fuel map accordingly. But still, there's the problem: We're basing that off of our own knowledge, and not adapting to the needs of someone with less than we have. That is where the options need to be presented properly.

In the end, this whole bullshit attitude of telling someone with a carburetor problem that the information they need is out there, so they're responsible for their own success needs to stop. That's not what this community is about. As I first told Bill years ago, there needs to be a specific "how-to" guide on these conversions so that individuals have a step-by-step procedure in their hands to get their cars running. No one should have to rely upon having to kiss someone else's ass in order to get support. If Chad had that kind of a resource available to him then, this car wouldn't have any problems right now, and this conversation wouldn't even have happened. But there you go.

Did you really not get that "duel mixture" was a typo from my phone's autocorrect? It should be "fuel mixture".

I didn't have any experience with carbs until just a few years ago. It's called learning.

I'm not going to bother reading and responding to every word of your response, as it's already been a waste of enough of my time.

[opethmike]

Well then I stand corrected, and I offer my sincerest apologies. The conflicting reports however still stand, and I'm not even going to get involved in on that dog pile.




On the contrary, I simply don't believe that you're seeing things from the correct viewpoint. Allow me to explain: Remove yourself and your skills and knowledge from the situation, and see things from the position of a person who doesn't have as much past experience, if any at all, with fuel delivery systems. With all three of the other systems I mentioned, these offer both large, diverse support groups, and even hard documentation in print to guide with the installation & tuning for the systems. This is the kind of support that an owner, or even an unfamiliar mechanic needs. Something sorely missing from these ad hoc carb kits. But we'll touch more on that later.

First, let's address the 3 systems in question.




No argument there, but I've no idea where in the world you're getting the idea that I'm claiming that there is none needed.




What in the world are you talking about? Stock K-Jetronic has only a single adjustment screw. The flow rates which make up the engine's fuel map were already pre-determined by BOSCH, and are executed by the components working in tandem. Tuning the system itself is actually extremely simple. The big problem is really that most owners simply refuse to follow the instructions contained inside of the Workshop Manual to apply a precise tune. But still, there is only a single adjustment screw. If you're tinkering with more than that, you're doing something wrong.




Certainly it isn't a "Plug & Play" solution per se, but the tuning process really isn't that hard. The most difficult portion of an EFI installation (which I myself will most likely be undertaking) is simply wiring up the sensors and components. That is complicated because it requires the individual to possess the ability to read schematics, use a multimeter, and have the tools and know-how of how to terminate the needed engine harness. But tuning? Nope. Aside from some pretty damn good documentation of performing a conversion and how to use the software, you have support from other owners and the entire aftermarket community at large. Even then there are many tuner shops that for a fee will perform the tuning on a Megasquirt (or other EFI system) for you. So tuning EFI to create your fuel map is literally the least of your worries.




It might be more difficult, but there is documentation available for the installation of the Holley unit and adapting it to the PRV. And that's a whole helluva lot more than I can say about these homemade conversions. As for guidance, let's talk about that...




Again this is how it may be easy for you, but that doesn't apply to everyone else. Just as you might be more comfortable with carburetors, I'm more comfortable with mechanical fuel injection and EFI because they're what I grew up on. They're what I know. Tuning a carb is a helluva lot more than just listening to it. Which for the record, you cannot do. If you could, Delco, Rotunda, and MoPar would have sold acoustic tuning devices a long time ago. You have to set your mixtures for idle, fast idle, and WOT. And that's after you properly jet the whole damn thing. Otherwise you end up with lean idles with high NO_x levels, and ok fast idle. OR you have ok idle emissions and high HCs on the fast idle. Because as it turns out, despite your engine type, you always have to have some sort of fuel map for the thing. And even if you don't care about emissions, with those kind of results, you still risk internal damage to the engine.

But that is your knowledge. Mine tells me that rather than having to tear a carb apart to swap jets, a couple of mouse clicks can allow me to change the entire duty cycle of an EFI injector to adjust the fuel map accordingly. But still, there's the problem: We're basing that off of our own knowledge, and not adapting to the needs of someone with less than we have. That is where the options need to be presented properly.

In the end, this whole bullshit attitude of telling someone with a carburetor problem that the information they need is out there, so they're responsible for their own success needs to stop. That's not what this community is about. As I first told Bill years ago, there needs to be a specific "how-to" guide on these conversions so that individuals have a step-by-step procedure in their hands to get their cars running. No one should have to rely upon having to kiss someone else's ass in order to get support. If Chad had that kind of a resource available to him then, this car wouldn't have any problems right now, and this conversation wouldn't even have happened. But there you go.

Attachment 54305

[Ron]

Thread split helping OP can be found HERE.

[Dangermouse]

Is it meant to be locked Ron?

[Michael]

Thread split helping OP can be found HERE.

Nice...the lock happys have struck again.

[81dmc]

Nice...the lock happys have struck again.

Looks like it. My post was moved but that thread is locked...