Not this $#!* again! (Coolant leak at rear of engine)

[DaraSue]

Well, I never did get that [expletive deleted] W-pipe loose, and IDK WTF I'm going to do because it has the wire that goes to the A/C compressor threaded through it and I don't see any easy way to disconnect it. But I was able to tilt it up enough to get a good look inside the VOD and holy antifreeze leak, Batman!

This is at the firewall end of the engine: 20171121_224634[1].jpg

I took a few more but they didn't turn out. But basically the whole valley was full of it. I shop-vacced up as much as I could and then pumped the pressure tester to about 7 and it was definitely dripping from the fat hose behind the water pump. Is it supposed to be this bulgy?

20171121_224605[1].jpg

It looked like maybe it was a little wet at the that t-junction at the firewall end of the engine (the one with the line coming off the forward end of the coolant bottle), too, but not as obviously drippy as the fat hose.

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?

[FABombjoy]

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?

No, but you'll almost certainly not be able to get it out that way

Might be worth investing in a $10 USB borescope from ebay. Many of those cameras will come with a little hook that you can use to grab the washer. Or you can put some 2-sided tape or something sticky to find and then retrieve the washer.

While you're at this I would consider replacing the pipe of agony with a 1/2 NPT barbed hose fitting. Later implementations of our engine had a similar modification. It's such a poor design given the sensitivity of K-jet to vacuum leaks. If not, you can assemble the entire idle system on the bench which will make it easier.

[Rich]

Well, I never did get that [expletive deleted] W-pipe loose...I was able to tilt it up enough to get a good look inside the VOD and holy antifreeze leak, Batman!

I took a few more but they didn't turn out. But basically the whole valley was full of it. I shop-vacced up as much as I could and then pumped the pressure tester to about 7 and it was definitely dripping from the fat hose behind the water pump. Is it supposed to be this bulgy?

It looked like maybe it was a little wet at the that t-junction at the firewall end of the engine (the one with the line coming off the forward end of the coolant bottle), too, but not as obviously drippy as the fat hose.

Also I lost a washer off the fuel lines and now I'm paranoid that it ended up in one of the cylinders. If I stuck the nozzle of my Dyson vac on the cylinder opening, would it hurt anything?

Well, you made some good progress on this.

No, that hose btwn the WP and the Y-pipe should not be that bulgy but bulgy isn't always the same as leaky. If you are into the VOD any hoses you see are candidates for replacement unless you know they are OK. And be sure whoever sells you the hose sells you the right clamps or use the (still looking good) ones that are on that hose.

Next point is about the T fitting, the one by the firewall you say might be leaky. You could have loose clamps, bad hoses or a cracked/leaky tee. Tend to that whether it fills the VOD or not.

Don't worry about the fuel line washer til you get the VOD opened up - you may find it sitting in the valley. If you do want to vacuum the intake ports just be sure your vacuum snorkel isn't going to crack or somehow drop any debris in there. Otherwise no harm in trying it. I would've suggested a magnet to fish for it but those aren't steel washers...

The borescope suggestion is good. No comment on price vs performance of those.

Finally, there was a note about the Pipe of Agony - in case the term is new to you it's the bent pipe attached to the idle motor you pulled.

[DaraSue]

Made some progress today (hopefully).

I had the bright idea to try setting a plywood plank across the left side of the bay with another piece of wood under it and set the manifold on that since I couldn't get it out, but in the process of trying to move it around, the A/C wire that was looped through the W pipe came apart at this black cylindrical thing in the middle. Hopefully it was supposed to come apart and will go back together again with a minimum of aggravation. If not, well, at least it's winter.

Once I got the valley accessible I tried to clean out all the antifreeze. (Is there an easier way to do this than shop vac + paper towels? I feel like I'm never going to stand up straight again...)

In the process I found the missing washer. Or at least I found a washer in a cranny where the one I lost could plausibly have fallen. It's quite a bit dingier than the rest of the small ones, though. Could that happen just from sitting overnight in a pool of coolant or do I still need to go sounding in the cylinders?

I tightened the clamps on the hoses behind the water pump. They only had about 20 in-lbs, if that. 40-ish is iwhat I want for the big ones, right? After tightening them I pumped it back to and it held while I went out to Harbor Freight so when I got home I went up to the 9-11 mark. About 20 mins later it was still holding so maybe if it's still good later I'll pump it up to 13 before I go to bed and if it's still good in the morning I'll think about putting it back together. The hoses feel solid and they should have all been replaced last year when I had the engine overhaul.

I got some copper washers at O'Reilly and the big ones look OK but the small ones, the hole in the center looks the same size but the actual circle part is wider, is that going to be OK or do I need to find ones that are an exact match?

20171122_180135.jpg (Pardon my grimy fingernails)

I also got a set of generic o-rings. Will one of those be OK for the Pipe of Agony? I can't find a specific one for it on DMCH.

[dn010]

I don’t have a book in front of me nor do I remember the recommended pressure of the cooling system but you should be able to go a few lbs PAST the recommended pressure to test. If it is 14 then you should be able to hold 16.

Yes. Generic orings and copper gaskets are sufficient.

The AC wire has a connector that comes apart. Put it back together when you’re done and you’ll be fine. Also, if my memory is fine, the “pipe of agony” has a backing ring that goes behind the oring , do you have that....?


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[DaraSue]

I don’t have a book in front of me nor do I remember the recommended pressure of the cooling system but you should be able to go a few lbs PAST the recommended pressure to test. If it is 14 then you should be able to hold 16.

Yes. Generic orings and copper gaskets are sufficient.

The AC wire has a connector that comes apart. Put it back together when you’re done and you’ll be fine. Also, if my memory is fine, the “pipe of agony” has a backing ring that goes behind the oring , do you have that....?

The system is supposed to be rated for 15, but I feel like all this escalated rapidly when I first pumped the tester to the 9-11 mark so I'm a little nervous about pushing it too hard. I just tried it up to halfway between the 9-11 and the 13-14 and first there were some drips from the bottom of the oil pan, although it wasn't anywhere near as bad as before I tightened the clamps. I depressurized and took another stab at the one clamp I hadn't been able to get to because the bolt was under the Y-pipe. I ended up installing a new clamp with the bolt facing the other direction but I still couldn't move the torque wrench far enough to make sure it was correctly tightened, but I could at least get at it with a stubby socket wrench so I tightened it to medium-ish resistance. When I pumped it up to 12-ish again, it's been about 1/2 an hour and no drips underneath yet, and the paper towels I put in the valley are still dry.

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place?

clamp.jpg

What does the backing ring look like? I don't remember seeing it unless it's still in the mixture unit. Although I found a random O-ring over with the rest of the parts so maybe it came off of there.

[Lwanmtr]

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place?

Its in the Laws of Engineering # 134: Always put as many small connectors and screws in an inaccessible location as possible.

[sdg3205]

The system is supposed to be rated for 15, but I feel like all this escalated rapidly when I first pumped the tester to the 9-11 mark so I'm a little nervous about pushing it too hard. I just tried it up to halfway between the 9-11 and the 13-14 and first there were some drips from the bottom of the oil pan, although it wasn't anywhere near as bad as before I tightened the clamps. I depressurized and took another stab at the one clamp I hadn't been able to get to because the bolt was under the Y-pipe. I ended up installing a new clamp with the bolt facing the other direction but I still couldn't move the torque wrench far enough to make sure it was correctly tightened, but I could at least get at it with a stubby socket wrench so I tightened it to medium-ish resistance. When I pumped it up to 12-ish again, it's been about 1/2 an hour and no drips underneath yet, and the paper towels I put in the valley are still dry.

IDK, should I leave well enough alone? Worried that this clamp is still a weak link. Why did they put it in such a horrifically inconvenient place?

clamp.jpg

What does the backing ring look like? I don't remember seeing it unless it's still in the mixture unit. Although I found a random O-ring over with the rest of the parts so maybe it came off of there.

Youve come this far. Pump it to spec! No one is going to die!

[DMC-81]

If you stayed with rubber hoses and OEM clamps, you should be able to search for "Norma Torro clamp torque " and get a PDF of recommend tightening torque values for each size of those clamps. Like so:

image.jpg

I replaced the hoses on the whole coolant system with OEM parts. When I was done, I pumped the system to 15 psi and made sure it held that pressure overnight. That was 2 years ago and I have a leak free system... So, I agree, that you should be able to go to 14 or 15 to test the system otherwise I'm afraid you may be doing this again.

I would get the correct copper crush rings if you aren't sure that you can get them locally.

Good luck with the job.

[FABombjoy]

If you stayed with rubber hoses and OEM clamps, you should be able to search for "Norma Torro clamp torque " and get a PDF of recommend tightening torque values for each size of those clamps. Like so:

The Norma clamps are worth the price for these hoses! They're narrow enough that you can even install 2 at most VOD locations as a backup.

Depending on how much you have to do to get it fixed, don't forget to clean up the pipe beads. They can get some serious mineral buildup and you might not get a good seal. I use a Dremel with little wire brush to remove the buildup or just a little sandpaper if I cant fit the Dremel. I changed my WP this summer and probably spend 20-30 minutes getting just the return fittings on each head back into shape.

It will generate quite a bit of dust, so I like to cover any engine openings and use a shop vac to help keep the dust contained.