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Thread: 3.0L MegaSquirt w/ EDIS, starts and idles... what next?

  1. #11
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Yes, make sure the coil wires are connected correctly, and then make sure the spark wires are correct on the pack. I have my coil turned so the harness connector as at the top making it CBA instead of ABC as every single picture you see has it (with the harness connector at the bottom!). This is what screwed me and it did run, but it sounded like it had one hell of cams in it and it was a stroker. It smoked and ran like crap but once fixed it fired to life and ran smooth.

    I'm not sure about the VE table, I don't see how it would need much or if any adjustment after changing cycle but I could be wrong. I'd suggest changing it to simultaneous and seeing what it does and then worry about the table and everything else. You will want to get it to idle first and then mess around with everything else. I'll check the rest of your tune in a bit, warm up enrichment might also be another area to visit.

    If you have a wasted spark compatible timing light you'll be fine. I don't even know what kind of light I have since it's like 15 years old but it still works with wasted spark. All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger. If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.

    EDIT: Your youtube post doesn't seem to be working.
    Last edited by dn010; 12-02-2017 at 03:22 PM.
    -----Dan B.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    Yes, make sure the coil wires are connected correctly, and then make sure the spark wires are correct on the pack. I have my coil turned so the harness connector as at the top making it CBA instead of ABC as every single picture you see has it (with the harness connector at the bottom!). This is what screwed me and it did run, but it sounded like it had one hell of cams in it and it was a stroker. It smoked and ran like crap but once fixed it fired to life and ran smooth.
    Ah, I understand now. The Motorcraft EE03A coils only have two pins, so I don't think the wire order matters (I don't think it's polarized, anyway). Mind you, I kind of wish it was that problem, since it sounds like my car is idling as badly as you describe.

    IMG_0124.jpg

    I did notice this on my blog post about installing the wiring:

    Coils: I had to do a little tracing on the spark plug wire, as my handling of the harness had torn of the masking tape labeling. I also wound up updating my wiring diagram slightly to match the true color of the wires.

    I looked at both my diagrams and Josh's to confirm the circuit for the coils. For example, the first pair is set up like this:
    • EDIS Pin 10 -> Coil A Pin 1
    • Coil A Pin 2 -> Coil B Pin 1
    • Coil B Pin 2 -> 12v


    According to the diagram, the pairs I'm doing are:
    • Cylinders 1 and 5
    • Cylinders 2 and 6
    • Cylinders 3 and 4


    Of course, wether or not I plugged them in correctly remains to be seen, since I haven't looked at the car yet.

    I'm not sure about the VE table, I don't see how it would need much or if any adjustment after changing cycle but I could be wrong. I'd suggest changing it to simultaneous and seeing what it does and then worry about the table and everything else. You will want to get it to idle first and then mess around with everything else. I'll check the rest of your tune in a bit, warm up enrichment might also be another area to visit.
    That guy might have switched an existing, passable tune over, and had to redo it. If you're not concerned about it, I'll just flip the switch and burn it to MS.

    If you have a wasted spark compatible timing light you'll be fine.
    I just have a simple timing light (push the button and it strobes -- no other controls). Which I can't seem to find now, so I'm wondering if I brought it to the garage ages ago and forgot about it. At worst, I'll buy another one on the way in tomorrow.

    I don't even know what kind of light I have since it's like 15 years old but it still works with wasted spark. All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger.
    For some reason I thought timing lights required the high voltage of a coil to get a usable inductive signal, and wouldn't work with the lower power provided by the trigger wires from MS. I don't know why I thought that. It just never occurred to me to try.

    If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.
    Thanks -- I'll try it out tomorrow after I confirm the wires are going to the correct coils/injectors.

    I've been using the HTML MegaManual; I didn't realize there were PDFs. Those seem easier to read than the HTML, and has more immediately useful information (I didn't find a "start the engine and start tuning" page in the HTML, but it is a bit hard to find stuff in there). I'll look through that tonight.

    EDIT: Your youtube post doesn't seem to be working.
    Doh; set it to Private by mistake. Should be good now.

    Thanks again

    -- Joe

  3. #13
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Ah, you're using EDIS & coil on plug. I didn't know this was your configuration. The EDIS setup I am using, and what I'm used to working on in Ford, just uses the EDIS brain and the EDIS coil which if I could ever get my pictures from the damn cloud, I'd post! In this case it also connects to the MS ECU but is independent in what it does. I can't really tell you much more about your configuration since I've never seen it done.

    Check out here: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/

    Click on the ECU you have and download the Setup PDF. You can also get the PDF of the hardware and tuner studio manuals to better understand what you're doing.

    As far as switching from Simultaneous / alternating, you can do it on the fly, engine idling, and see the result. Same with the calculated fuel, just don't adjust it to the extreme (typing 51 instead of 15). You won't 'hurt' anything but you'll cause the engine to stop dead.
    -----Dan B.

  4. #14
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Finally! I had to take off my lower-lower engine cover (the aluminum panel with the paper sitting on it), you can see what I'm doing. Again, for anyone reading, my coil is BACKWARDS with the harness facing forward. The picture sucks but it's actually 4-5-6 on the paper, the 4 looks like a 1.
    unnamed2.jpg
    unnamed.jpg
    -----Dan B.

  5. #15
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

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    Finally! I had to take off my lower-lower engine cover (the aluminum panel with the paper sitting on it), you can see what I'm doing. Again, for anyone reading, my coil is BACKWARDS with the harness facing forward. The picture sucks but it's actually 4-5-6 on the paper, the 4 looks like a 1. I edited it so no one misunderstands what way it's facing.

    unnamed2.jpg
    unnamed3.jpg
    Attached Images
    Last edited by dn010; 12-02-2017 at 05:03 PM.
    -----Dan B.

  6. #16
    Not a DeLorean Guru
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    Once you have the spark sorted out, or confirmed correct, I'll be glad to help with the fueling.

    What sort readings are you seeing from your wideband's output?
    -Mike
    1981 DeLorean, heads/cams/exhaust, EFI
    1999 Corvette, heads/cam/exhaust, 440 BHP
    2005 Elise, stock
    2016 Chevy Cruze

  7. #17
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    Ah, you're using EDIS & coil on plug. I didn't know this was your configuration. The EDIS setup I am using, and what I'm used to working on in Ford, just uses the EDIS brain and the EDIS coil which if I could ever get my pictures from the damn cloud, I'd post! In this case it also connects to the MS ECU but is independent in what it does. I can't really tell you much more about your configuration since I've never seen it done.
    I don't actually know a lot about EDIS, just that it can control spark for me. Since I'm basing it on a known working configuration from Josh (using mostly his hardware insofar as the harness and coils), I'm assuming it worked at some point. This does strongly suggest I just plugged things in wrong. Hopefully that's it.

    Click on the ECU you have and download the Setup PDF. You can also get the PDF of the hardware and tuner studio manuals to better understand what you're doing.
    Thanks -- I've grabbed the manual so I can keep it on my phone for reference.

    As far as switching from Simultaneous / alternating, you can do it on the fly, engine idling, and see the result. Same with the calculated fuel, just don't adjust it to the extreme (typing 51 instead of 15). You won't 'hurt' anything but you'll cause the engine to stop dead.
    I did notice in the MegaManual that some things could be changed on the fly and that some things couldn't. I don't remember the specifics,, though. Some quick Googling suggests MS2 (which I have) can cause a stumble sometimes after burn, but MS3 won't have that problem.

    Thanks

    -- Joe

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by opethmike View Post
    Once you have the spark sorted out, or confirmed correct, I'll be glad to help with the fueling.
    Cool, thanks.

    Something that might I realized might be helpful is a screen recording of a car starting, idling for about 20 seconds, and shutting down. By "screen recording", I mean one showing the gauges in TunerStudio. I noticed my AFR gauge was bouncing around, but I don't know if it should be pretty much rock steady or if the bounce is normal. Same with the RPM variance. It's the kind of thing someone with experience would immediately recognize as being off, but for someone whose never seen a correctly running tune it's not clear if it's normal or not.

    What sort readings are you seeing from your wideband's output?
    I'll have to check that tomorrow; I haven't even looked for that value in TunerStudio.

    Thanks

    -- Joe

  9. #19
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    All you do is put the clamp around #1 wire and pull the trigger. If you have the setup manual for ms3, refer to page 53. You disable the fuel, set your timing to 0 degrees (Ignition Settings -> Ignition Options / Wheel Decoder -> Cranking Advance), put your timing light on and with someone cranking see how far off, if at all, your timing it and then adjust it.
    Ok, a question about this. This is in the MegaManual for EDIS:

    To test the VR sensor alignment, run the EDIS in limp home mode. This can be done by disconnecting the SAW/PIP plug, or disconnecting MegaSquirt-II (or its power).

    Start your engine and check that the timing is exactly 10 BTDC with a timing light on cylinder #1. If the timing isn't 10 BTDC, adjust the position of your VR sensor until the timing is as close to 10 BTDC as you can get it. Note that at very low rpms (less than 400) the EDIS with no SAW input will start at almost TDC and as rpm increases towards 400 the ignition point will approach 10 BTDC; it will be stable above that engine speed. So the engine must be running to check the timing, cranking won't work. Don't forget to reconnect the SAW/PIP plug when you are done, or you will have NO timing advance and your engine will run poorly and inefficiently.

    I have not tried to align the VR sensor yet, but the implication here is that the engine must be running, not cranking, or EDIS won't work properly.

    It sounds like what you're suggesting is a different kind of test than the one used for VR sensor alignment?


    Also, another point of confusion, this time about EDIS-6 firing order.

    According to the MegaManual link above, EDIS-6 firing order is ABC (pairs of coils), but in my wiring diagram I have it listed as BAC. I seem to have gotten BAC from Josh's wiring diagram, but I don't know where he got it from. And I found another thread that suggests it's supposed to be ACB. <sigh> I can try changing the order tomorrow and see what happens.

    Thanks again

    -- Joe

  10. #20
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    Both logs show MAP at atmospheric pressure (about 101kPa) while the engine is running.
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