Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 59

Thread: 3.0L MegaSquirt w/ EDIS, starts and idles... what next?

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    I checked the coil plugs this morning, and confirmed they are plugged into the correct coils.

    I also checked the MegaManual again, and realized Id misread it. it says the pins are ordered ABC, but fire in the order of ACB. This makes more sense with Joshs order of BCA its just rolled to the right. The crank sensor is positioned at the bottom left of the toothed gear, so I think he just shifted everything 120 degrees, including which plugs the coils are connected to.

    So as best I can tell, the coils are correctly connected.

    Joe

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Both logs show MAP at atmospheric pressure (about 101kPa) while the engine is running.
    Well now I feel stupid — while checking the wiring on the EDIS, I found the hose from the manifold just lying in the cabin — I forgot to hook it back up to MS after I took it out of the car last time. I was going to start looking for some kind of wiring issue (apparently MS defaults to 100 kPA) until I found that.

    Thanks

    — Joe

  3. #23
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Lansing, MI

    Posts:    548

    My VIN:    10270

    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    Well now I feel stupid — while checking the wiring on the EDIS, I found the hose from the manifold just lying in the cabin — I forgot to hook it back up to MS after I took it out of the car last time. I was going to start looking for some kind of wiring issue (apparently MS defaults to 100 kPA) until I found that.
    It's just a healthy measurement of your local atmosphere

    There are a few other things I noticed but I didn't want to say analyze much while on a 1-dimentional fuel table. A few other quick observations based on my B28F

    -Warmup looks lean and low RPM. The combo of 40F CLT, 700-ish RPM, and AFR swinging around 14:1 will lug like mad on my engine and shake like an off-balance washer. I run closed-loop idle and I know my ECU would probably abuse ignition advance to maintain that target. I'm sure the 3.0 would be smoother but even modern cars have higher warm-up RPM targets. I target 1200 RPM at that CLT. AFR is bouncing all over and will probably change once MAP is reconnected.

    -What kind of idle valve? msq shows 4/6 wire stepper. If that's the DIY valve setup I would suggest changing minimum steps to move to 2 or 3, and "always on", at least for now. Did you visually verify stepper movement using the test mode? From experience I sent a lot of pintiles flying across the room until I got the wiring straight If it's the stock valve then ignore this.

    -REQ_FUEL doesn't seem to correspond with what was previously stated in this thread regarding your injector size (stated 19lbs, 22lbs in the equation)

    The fact that it runs at all is a huge thing, tho! I'm sure with some fine-tuning it'll be right in no time.
    Last edited by FABombjoy; 12-03-2017 at 01:07 PM.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 1982 Grey 5-Speed :: Single T3 .60/.48 Watercooled :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  4. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    Actually plugging in the MAP hose changed things quite dramatically. The car starts, but quickly stalls out. If I give it some gas, it revs properly, and I can use the pedal to force it to an idling speed where it will stay, but still make that air compressor like noise instead of what I consider a proper engine noise.

    My attempts to start the car after that failed. It would just crank and occasionally try to catch, but never actually catch.

    I was going to hook a timing light up (turns out I did leave my timing gun at the garage), but I couldn't find the push button I use to crank the engine from the engine bay, so I'll have to leave that until next time. I did find a test light that I forgot I bought -- it's just a bulb with spark plug wires on both ends. I can plug this in between the plug and the coil and hook the timing light up to that, although some Googling found a video where someone simply held the timing gun's inductive clip flat against the top of the coil to get the gun to fire. I'm half tempted to buy five more of those $6 test lights and plugging in all six at once just so I can make sure all the coils are firing, but that seems a little silly, and it's not hard to test them one at a time.

    I also tried simultaneous fuel instead of alternate for the initial start, although with the MAP variable thrown in I'm not sure if that changed anything. Once it wouldn't start anymore, I tried going back to alternate fuel, but it had no effect.

    Here's the most recent batch of logs:


    Thanks again!

    -- Joe

  5. #25
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,242

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    Any luck checking your timing?
    -----Dan B.

  6. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    -Warmup looks lean and low RPM.
    That seems consistent with how quickly it stalled out after I hooked up the MAP sensor properly. I should also note that the strong fuel smell from the exhaust is pretty much gone now.

    The combo of 40F CLT, 700-ish RPM, and AFR swinging around 14:1 will lug like mad on my engine and shake like an off-balance washer.
    That's fits with what I was seeing, too.

    I run closed-loop idle and I know my ECU would probably abuse ignition advance to maintain that target. I'm sure the 3.0 would be smoother but even modern cars have higher warm-up RPM targets. I target 1200 RPM at that CLT. AFR is bouncing all over and will probably change once MAP is reconnected.
    Actually, once I connected the MAP I saw the AFR go pretty crazy still, up over 22 at one point before it stalled out. I'm guessing other factors are at player here.

    About the higher warm-up targets, that explains my neighbor's late-model Camero, which seems to rev a bit higher than I expected on a cold start for a couple of minutes before settling down. I had wondered about that.

    -What kind of idle valve? msq shows 4/6 wire stepper. If that's the DIY valve setup I would suggest changing minimum steps to move to 2 or 3, and "always on", at least for now.
    4 wire Jeep IAC. I'll make the change for the next time I go to the garage (which unfortunately won't be for at least 2 weeks, as I'll be busy next weekend).

    Did you visually verify stepper movement using the test mode? From experience I sent a lot of pintiles flying across the room until I got the wiring straight If it's the stock valve then ignore this.
    I did not; I wasn't aware of a test mode. This has taken four years, and the last 1.5 years was waiting for an exhaust before finally just building one myself, and most of the electrical work was done that. Which mostly means my memory is fuzzy about exactly what I did. I do remember spending a lot of time making sure I got the pins right on the IAC, which I documented (briefly), and used a diagram as a reference for what to wire up to what. I never visually checked it, as I didn't know I could.

    I'll have to remember to bring a torx driver with me next time I go, as for some reason it uses that instead of hex bolts or Philips screws.

    -REQ_FUEL doesn't seem to correspond with what was previously stated in this thread regarding your injector size (stated 19lbs, 22lbs in the equation)
    Ah, sorry, it seems I pulled that information from the part of my site from when I was looking at doing a 2.8 EFI conversion, before I found a hole in my engine block and switched to a 3.0L swap. I used 22lbs because that's what I found when I googled for the Ford FOTE-9F593-D9B injectors that I'm actually using. 22lbs is (I believe) correct.

    On an unrelated note, I notice that my oil gauge in the DMC is pegged to straight up, beyond the end of the marks. I'll have to look into that at some point. I'm using the one-wire sender that came with the 3.0L engine.

    The fact that it runs at all is a huge thing, tho! I'm sure with some fine-tuning it'll be right in no time.
    I was pretty surprised it ran at all. Although now I have to figure out why it doesn't again, but your suggestions should help. Thanks!

    -- Joe

  7. #27
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,242

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    Ah, sorry, it seems I pulled that information from the part of my site from when I was looking at doing a 2.8 EFI conversion, before I found a hole in my engine block and switched to a 3.0L swap. I used 22lbs because that's what I found when I googled for the Ford FOTE-9F593-D9B injectors that I'm actually using. 22lbs is (I believe) correct.
    -- Joe
    This is where it gets interesting - be careful here. Are these the pink tops? What is the Bosch number on the injector? You have to figure out how much fuel these will inject. You're saying they're 22lbs. BUT. 22lbs at what Pressure / BAR? Then, you need to figure out what pressure your installed fuel pressure regulator maintains. If they're 22lbs at 4 bar or 5 bar etc, and your regulator is at 3 bar, then you will no longer have 22lbs anymore, it will be LESS. The easiest thing for me was to get a graduated cylinder to get my injector parameters. I say easy - it was a pain in the ass, but it gave me the numbers I needed without guesswork.
    -----Dan B.

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    Any luck checking your timing?
    Unfortunately, no. I found my timing gun, but I couldn't find the button setup I used to run the crank from the engine compartment. I'm going to throw together another one, but it'll be probably two weeks before I can get back to the garage.

    I did find a spark test light that I bought years ago and forgot about, which is just a short run of wire with a light in the middle and spark plug wires on either end. I can clip the gun right to that, or apparently just lay the clamp on top of the coil to fire the gun, but clipping it on gives me another free hand.

    I also finally understand what our cross-talk about clipping on the wires. You're using a coil pack (I think), so multiple coils with spark plug wires running to the plugs that you can clip the gun to. I'm using coil-on-plug, so the only wires I have are just the ones from MS to the coils, and there's no spark plug wire to the plug. Now it makes sense.


    I'm curious about how testing the timing (in the MS3 docs page 53 that you pointed out earlier) and the EDIS VR sensor alignment (which requires the car to be running) relate to each other. I'm guessing that testing the timing would tell me if the VR sensor is out of alignment, since EDIS should be doing all the timing work based on the VR sensor input, right? But doing it as per the MS3 docs let me fix the VR alignment without having to actually have the car running. Does that sound right?

    -- Joe

  9. #29
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
    Join Date:  Jul 2011

    Location:  Florida: Pinellas County

    Posts:    1,242

    My VIN:    5003

    Club(s):   (DCF)

    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post


    I'm curious about how testing the timing (in the MS3 docs page 53 that you pointed out earlier) and the EDIS VR sensor alignment (which requires the car to be running) relate to each other.

    -- Joe
    EDIS needs to know where the crankshaft / Top Dead Center is in order to work. You can't weld on a trigger ring to the pulley anywhere you feel like it and put a sensor on the engine anywhere you want. The ring needs to be arranged so that the missing tooth is 6 teeth away from the sensor when the crank is at TDC. [https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...rank-trigger/]

    But since we are DIY, this arrangement may not be perfect and we may have installed the ring and sensor a few degrees off. This is why you need to check the timing and see what it is. You can change the timing offset in MS, but you can't change anything inside the EDIS box, it is expecting the missing tooth angle to be correct.

    You've stated already you're not very familiar with EDIS. You'd really benefit from looking up MS & EDIS information so you know what is going when your engine is running - makes it easier to diagnose and tune, etc.
    -----Dan B.

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date:  May 2011

    Location:  Norton, MA

    Posts:    467

    My VIN:    767

    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    This is where it gets interesting - be careful here. Are these the pink tops? What is the Bosch number on the injector?
    Pink tops. I happen to have one injector at home. The numbers on them are FTOE-9F593-D9B on one side, and 280 150 561 on the other, which Google tells me is the Bosch part number.

    You have to figure out how much fuel these will inject. You're saying they're 22lbs. BUT. 22lbs at what Pressure / BAR?
    Some Googling find a forum post (not exactly a definitive source, I admit) that says, "These are rated 22 lb/h by Bosch, when tested at the industry standard at 43.5 psi (3 bar) differential pressure. However when run at 40 psi they will deliver 21.10 lb/h." The various charts I found otherwise didn't list the PSI/bar for these injectors.

    Then, you need to figure out what pressure your installed fuel pressure regulator maintains.
    It's the stock regulator from the 3.0L engine. I have a pressure gauge inline with the fuel system, so I can check it once the car is running. My records show that I was getting 39 PSI. I did notice it reading 20 PSI when the car was off today, though, after I had cranked it, so I'm going to have to look at that again net time I'm down there and see if something is wrong.

    If they're 22lbs at 4 bar or 5 bar etc, and your regulator is at 3 bar, then you will no longer have 22lbs anymore, it will be LESS. The easiest thing for me was to get a graduated cylinder to get my injector parameters. I say easy - it was a pain in the ass, but it gave me the numbers I needed without guesswork.
    Give the the information I have, it seem like I should consider these to be 21 lb/hr injectors. At least I think that's right. It does mean my values are indeed off.

    How did you use the graduated cylinder to test the injectors? I'm guessing you collected the fuel from the injector in one, but I'm just not clear what the process was.

    Thanks again

    -- Joe

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •