Bad squeaky sound, probably bent crank (3.0L)

[jangell]

Are you sure you have engine / trans alignment dowels installed?

Edit: Scratch that, I just realized you said it was doing this even out of the car. My apologies! If you put the bearings in without any assembly lube then you'd have destroyed the bearings, same if you put the wrong bearings in the wrong places. I imagine you'll find out the issue as soon as you remove the lower CC.

Ah. I had seen a lot of references to assembly lube when rebuilding the engine, but only if I got deeper than the lower crankcase, so I was able to ignore all of that. Now I know that it'll destroy the main bearings if I do get that far (I know it was bad, but not how specifically bad).

At this point I am wondering if I have destroyed the bearings anyway, though, given the noise and the misalignment. The engine has been turned over (by starter and by hand) maybe 40 times since this problem appeared, but I imagine that with the forces involved, just once was enough to wreck everything. I have no idea where to get new main bearings (no luck on RockAuto), assuming that this hasn't also damaged the block itself. Which means I might be getting a new engine either way -- but I won't jump to conclusions until I see inside the engine.

And I do have the alignment dowels in.

Thanks!

-- Joe

[jangell]

Ok, torn down the bottom of the engine today. We drained all the oil from the engine, proving that there was indeed oil in the engine (the dipstick showed it as full, too). We pulled oil pan and baffle, and eventually the lower crankcase.

The engine is bone dry. It's like it didn't even have oil in it. The implication is that the oil pump failed somehow. The chain appears to set up correctly (my mechanic friend confirmed this). We know there was plenty of oil in the engine. It simply wasn't getting circulated.

There's also a little "glitter" in the oil, which I'm told implies metal flakes from the dry engine turning. There are also gouges on the few main bearings that we removed.

So it looks like I'm in them market for a new 3.0L engine. Josh, you don't happen to have your old 3.0L sitting around after four years do you? Not that I'm sure what's involved getting it shipped from Canada to Massachusetts...

Attached are some pictures. The drained oil, baffle and pan are mostly to prove the engine really did have oil in it, in contrast to the completely dry crank shown in the other pictures. We looked into the oil filler and it was bone dry in the cams as well.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Now the question is, why would the pump fail like that? Although I guess it's academic now; the engine is pretty much junk at this point.

-- Joe

IMG_0796.jpgIMG_0774.jpgIMG_0800.jpgIMG_0773.jpgIMG_0778.jpgIMG_0792.jpgIMG_0790.jpg

[dn010]

Ok, torn down the bottom of the engine today. We drained all the oil from the engine, proving that there was indeed oil in the engine (the dipstick showed it as full, too). We pulled oil pan and baffle, and eventually the lower crankcase.

The engine is bone dry. It's like it didn't even have oil in it. The implication is that the oil pump failed somehow. The chain appears to set up correctly (my mechanic friend confirmed this). We know there was plenty of oil in the engine. It simply wasn't getting circulated.

There's also a little "glitter" in the oil, which I'm told implies metal flakes from the dry engine turning. There are also gouges on the few main bearings that we removed.

So it looks like I'm in them market for a new 3.0L engine. Josh, you don't happen to have your old 3.0L sitting around after four years do you? Not that I'm sure what's involved getting it shipped from Canada to Massachusetts...

Attached are some pictures. The drained oil, baffle and pan are mostly to prove the engine really did have oil in it, in contrast to the completely dry crank shown in the other pictures. We looked into the oil filler and it was bone dry in the cams as well.

Thanks again for the help everyone. Now the question is, why would the pump fail like that? Although I guess it's academic now; the engine is pretty much junk at this point.

-- Joe

IMG_0796.jpgIMG_0774.jpgIMG_0800.jpgIMG_0773.jpgIMG_0778.jpgIMG_0792.jpgIMG_0790.jpg

Some bad bearings doesn’t mean the engine is trashed. Did you remove the pump and disassemble to see what was happening? Pickup clogged? Pict of the cylinders from the bottom?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DMC5180]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[David T]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the motor has not actually run you may only have damaged the bearings. Examine the crank and cylinders and you should be OK with new main and con rod bearings. Of course you must figure out why the oil pump isn't pumping oil. When you removed the oil did you measure how much came out?

[jangell]

So you swapped the girdle section from the 2.8L to the 3.0L. Did you also use the 2.8L oil pan? If yes, did you transfer the oil pickup tube and extension spacer from the 2.8 to the 3.0? This sets the oil pickup tube deeper in the oil pan. If you didn’t do this, your pickup may have been positioned above the Oil level.

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

[dn010]

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

Take the pump out and see if there is an issue with the gears or relief, if the spring is broken, etc. Run some oil passage cleaners through. Take the valve covers off and look at the camshafts, rotate the engine to look at the cylinders and piston skirts from the bottom. Get new bearings if everything looks good and put it back together, as said I doubt you’ve trashed the engine. It looked like you only just ‘wiped’ the bearings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DMC5180]

That's an excellent question. I did indeed use the 2.8L oil pan, mostly because it seemed way nicer than the 3.0L one. When we disassembled the engine yesterday, we did take out a spacer, but I had to check the manuals to see if there was a spacer in the 3.0L and if I'd installed that instead (I don't actually remember if there was a spacer or not). As best I can tell, the 3.0L engine did not use a spacer, so I definitely installed the 2.8L spacer. I made sure to put in new O-rings, too. I also used the 2.8L oil baffle and inlet tube (the tube has one vs two mounting points, which made it obvious). Finally, all the lower crankcase parts that were removed were clearly submerged in oil, so they were definitely below the oil level.

-- Joe

The 3.0 did not use the spacer. But 2.8 does and needs it for the deeper pan. Glad you verified it was installed. That means it’s still a head scratcher as to why you didn’t have any oil pressure. Makes one wonder if there was blockage in the pickup circuit or a missing or worn-out component within the pump assembly. I wonder if the pressure relief valve is functioning properly. If, it was missing a component it may never build pressure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jangell]

Some bad bearings doesn’t mean the engine is trashed. Did you remove the pump and disassemble to see what was happening? Pickup clogged? Pict of the cylinders from the bottom?

I have not removed the pump yet. That was the plan today, but before we took off the main pulley nut and the timing cover, we decided to oil up the engine and test for deflection at the flex pate again. Our logic was that if the crank is somehow bent, it doesn't really matter if the oil pump is working or not. After manually oiling the engine (removing the main bearing caps, pouring oil into the holes and on the surfaces, re-installing the lower crankcase piece to secure the bearings, and oiling the cams for good measure), we found it far easier to rotate by hand, as it should be.

I don't have a dial indicator (yet), so for a quick test we marked a piece of metal and placed it next to the rear take-off where the flex pate mounts (not sure what that's called) and rotated the engine. The mark appeared to be aligned with the edge of the take-off the entire time. We did a second test at a different point and it still seemed fine.

Then we put the flex plate on. Rotating the engine we could see it wobble in and out. We marked the high point and low point of the wobble, which oddly didn't seem to be opposite each other -- it was more like the high point was at a specific location about 60 degrees off from the low points (so imagine if a clock was bowed out a little bit at the 12 position, but got level again by 3 and stayed level through 9 before starting to bow again). This was a crude visual test.

I have a second flex plate -- the one where I put a screwdriver through the hole to keep the engine from rotating, which in turn bent it when I attempted to remain the main pulley nut. Since flex plates can only be installed in a specific orientation, we mounted that one as well and did the test again, and found the deflection appeared to be in the same place and in the same manner.

My guess is that this means one or more of the following:
- Both flex plates are bent in very similar ways. This seems highly unlikely.
- The crank is bent. This seems very hard to do, although we theorize that the engine may have been overheated routinely before I got it, and running it hot for a prolonged period of time could have slightly warped it. But it still seems very unlikely, especially with the specifically-placed deflection we're seeing.
- The spacers/shims/whatever-they're-called that sit on either side of the flex plate are misshapen. They don't look misshapen, and the bolts appeared to be flush when installed, so this doesn't seem likely either.

I'm out of ideas about what is causing this. My friend is taking both flex plates and the shims to see if they really are flat. We're also going to get a dial indicator to confirm that the end of the crank really is flat and level, just to be sure.

I should also mention that I never tested the alignment of the flex plate before I put the engine in the car. The squealing from the complete lack of oil was the only reason we looked at the inspection hole in the transmission and noticed that problem.

-- Joe

[dn010]

I have two cranks if you need one...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk