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Thread: Shifting issues

  1. #1
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Shifting issues

    As much as I want to be done and not have to do any more work to my damn car, I would like to tackle the shifting problem I've always had. I am pretty sure it's the second gear roll pin but I'd like to get opinions on what else might be wrong so that I can get most of the proper parts and have less downtime (I know more might be wrong once I open it up).

    Symptoms are as follows:

    Hot or cold doesn't really matter. Difficult to shift into first while in motion, I have to use a good effort to force the shifter forward. From a stop, shifting is no problem. Whether I am moving or not, there is no grinding when I finally get it into first.

    Shifting into second from first is usually no problem. Sometimes I will shift it and it will not engage unless I really pull back on the shifter, not an often occurrence unless I'm really shifting fast between gears.

    Shifting into second from third or more, typically the gear does not engage and when I press the gas I get a neutral situation. Sometimes it will "catch" and sometimes it will not. I have to force the shifter forward pretty roughly a few times to get a higher percentage that it will engage into second. No grind either way.

    Shifting into reverse sometimes grinds, I usually have to shift it into first prior to reverse.

    All other gears shift fine.

    Before David T comes on here rattling off what could be suspect (LOL), I will list that my clutch is good, clutch hydraulics are fine/new, new bushing kit, new cross-gate cable, good gear oil level, linkages adjusted and I'm using a non-adjustable clevis rod in my hydraulics if that matters - I may change to adjustable. The mounts are crack free and tight. The bushing kit has made a big difference, before it I used to sometimes skip 2nd gear all together that is how bad it was. But still, I am sure there is something wrong internal and it would be nice to have a "normal" transmission in this car after 16 years of dealing with this!

    Are there other roll pins I should replace? Does this sound like syncros might be bad as well?

    Thanks in advance,
    -----Dan B.

  2. #2
    One of those purists you keep hearing about. sdg3205's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dn010 View Post
    As much as I want to be done and not have to do any more work to my damn car, I would like to tackle the shifting problem I've always had. I am pretty sure it's the second gear roll pin but I'd like to get opinions on what else might be wrong so that I can get most of the proper parts and have less downtime (I know more might be wrong once I open it up).

    Symptoms are as follows:

    Hot or cold doesn't really matter. Difficult to shift into first while in motion, I have to use a good effort to force the shifter forward. From a stop, shifting is no problem. Whether I am moving or not, there is no grinding when I finally get it into first.

    Shifting into second from first is usually no problem. Sometimes I will shift it and it will not engage unless I really pull back on the shifter, not an often occurrence unless I'm really shifting fast between gears.

    Shifting into second from third or more, typically the gear does not engage and when I press the gas I get a neutral situation. Sometimes it will "catch" and sometimes it will not. I have to force the shifter forward pretty roughly a few times to get a higher percentage that it will engage into second. No grind either way.

    Shifting into reverse sometimes grinds, I usually have to shift it into first prior to reverse.

    All other gears shift fine.

    Before David T comes on here rattling off what could be suspect (LOL), I will list that my clutch is good, clutch hydraulics are fine/new, new bushing kit, new cross-gate cable, good gear oil level, linkages adjusted and I'm using a non-adjustable clevis rod in my hydraulics if that matters - I may change to adjustable. The mounts are crack free and tight. The bushing kit has made a big difference, before it I used to sometimes skip 2nd gear all together that is how bad it was. But still, I am sure there is something wrong internal and it would be nice to have a "normal" transmission in this car after 16 years of dealing with this!

    Are there other roll pins I should replace? Does this sound like syncros might be bad as well?

    Thanks in advance,
    Itís normal for the trans NOT to shift into 1st while in motion. This is common across other makes and models. Donít force it!

    The other symptoms sound like roll pin issues. If the shifter is properly oriented and not experiencing interference in any direction and the hydraulics are in good working order I think you know the drill.

    Iíve tried redline synthetics to help with my downshift grind into 3rd but it has made zero difference. I have to lean it up against the gear and it falls in when the syncro is ready.
    Dave

    Here, somewhere.


  3. #3
    Delorean Guru
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    Sounds like you have already ruled out many of the more common possibilities. The hard 1-2 upshift is typically a roll pin problem but it can also occur if the gearshift linkage is slightly out of adjustment. Try readjusting again and if that doesn't help the next step is to open the gearbox. The reverse grinding is because you either do it too quickly after stopping or the car is still moving. There is no syncro for reverse, if it grinds you are still moving or not allowing the gears to slow/stop before shifting into reverse. Read Service Bulletin ST-19-10/81. If you do remove the transaxle figure on replacing the clutch unless it was already replaced. There is just one roll pin but when you replace it with a new one you stick a smaller one inside it to make it stronger. When you order the parts from your favorite vendor they will get you everything you need. Unless a PO didn't know how to shift and your syncros are all munched up and you have brass dust pouring out in the oil the syncros should be OK. You should get a "kit" with all of the seals, pins, etc. The pin gets bent because the trans was forced into gears at some point in it's history. Usually because of a problem with the clutch hydraulics. Forcing can also break the pivot shoulder bolt that holds the bell crank (good idea to keep an extra one in the car).
    David Teitelbaum

  4. #4
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses guys.

    Are there any other signs of slightly out of adjustment linkage? This has been an ongoing problem despite adjustments throughout the years since I've gotten the car in '02 and I can't seem to get rid of the problem. My shifter is pretty well centered without hitting the boot retainer going into reverse or 5th. Now that I look back, I may have even replaced that damn roll pin the time my spider gear spindle blew up but I just can't remember that far back. If I DID replace it, I did not reinforce it. I remember having to slam/speed-shift this car once due to a blown clutch line (got it into third just to crawl home, 5 mile hike but that too was likely before the spindle incident. Never has any brass drained from this transmission. The clutch is good but I may just throw a new disk on it along with a needed TO bearing. I also have the upgraded input shaft coupler so I may as well just get it all over with.

    Thanks for the mention of Redline, -I was wondering about that. If it did nothing for you then I'll stick with the usual 80/90.
    Last edited by dn010; 05-07-2018 at 05:53 PM.
    -----Dan B.

  5. #5
    Delorean Guru
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    In the Lotus's we use the Redline MT-90. Actually the only factory recommended lube is NLA so many are trying all kinds of stuff but the Redline seems to be OK. The Redline seems to be overkill for the Delorean, the Castrol seems to be just fine. As little as 1/2 turn of adjustment can have an effect on the feel of the shifter so I would give that a try before taking everything apart. One forced shift can bend that pin. If you don't see a lot of brass you should not need syncros. When you get the clutch out you can measure the friction plate but if you have over 50,000 miles it is just good practice to replace it anyway. If it is low mileage but original it would be a good idea to replace it if for no other reason that to replace the bearings. The replacement clutches will have a lighter pedal pressure too. They have centrifugal weights that add more pressure so you don't need such stiff springs. One more thing to consider, when you do your shifts you should be stepping ALL the way down on the clutch pedal. Any less and you will get grinding and hard shifting. One other less likely possibility is the nut on the 5th gear is coming loose and allowing the main shaft to move. You will see that as soon as you open the box if it happened.
    David Teitelbaum

  6. #6
    Senior Member DMC-81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T View Post
    The replacement clutches will have a lighter pedal pressure too. They have centrifugal weights that add more pressure so you don't need such stiff springs.
    I don't think the DeLorean clutches, at least the Valeo offering, use centrifugal weights. I didn't see any. I remember they were discussed here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?80...e-Clutch/page2

    I will add that to have optional shifting, I found the optimal engine speed is 3,000 to 3,500 rpm on mine. At that speed, mine shifts like butter. Outside that range, especially on the low end, it is clunky, (using Valvoline High Performance 80/90 gear oil).

    Also, I find that you need to ensure that 3rd gear is in place.. not forcing it but if you don't get it all the way into gear, mine seems like it's in 3rd, but it is not and I get a neutral condition. I wonder if that is characteristic of the gearbox. Maybe others can chime in.

    If you take it apart, I have thoughts on good replacement parts.
    Dana

    Delorean status: Restoration finished. DMC's BRP program completed, and CECF 2017 & 2018 Platinum Award winner.

    Pictures and comments of my restoration journey are in the albums section on my profile.

    .

  7. #7
    EFI'd dn010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T View Post
    In the Lotus's we use the Redline MT-90. Actually the only factory recommended lube is NLA so many are trying all kinds of stuff but the Redline seems to be OK. The Redline seems to be overkill for the Delorean, the Castrol seems to be just fine. As little as 1/2 turn of adjustment can have an effect on the feel of the shifter so I would give that a try before taking everything apart. One forced shift can bend that pin. If you don't see a lot of brass you should not need syncros. When you get the clutch out you can measure the friction plate but if you have over 50,000 miles it is just good practice to replace it anyway. If it is low mileage but original it would be a good idea to replace it if for no other reason that to replace the bearings. The replacement clutches will have a lighter pedal pressure too. They have centrifugal weights that add more pressure so you don't need such stiff springs. One more thing to consider, when you do your shifts you should be stepping ALL the way down on the clutch pedal. Any less and you will get grinding and hard shifting. One other less likely possibility is the nut on the 5th gear is coming loose and allowing the main shaft to move. You will see that as soon as you open the box if it happened.
    The transmission has about ~73KMI on it. For various reasons, I'm on my third of fourth clutch, definitely not original. I've been in my transmission twice, the 5th gear nut is definitely not going anywhere and I'm not looking forward to removing it either. My TO bearing was making noise prior to my engine swap, a little grease helped it out but I do want to put a new one in. If I can find a disc cheap, I'll put it in anyway as well. While I do try to be sure I press the clutch pedal fully, there are times where I guess I'm lazy and it doesn't make it all the way down. Curiously today when I backed the D out, it would not go into reverse. I pumped the clutch a few times and it then went right in. It's very unlikely that there is air in the system but maybe I can try a bleed anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMC-81 View Post
    I don't think the DeLorean clutches, at least the Valeo offering, use centrifugal weights. I didn't see any. I remember they were discussed here: http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?80...e-Clutch/page2

    I will add that to have optional shifting, I found the optimal engine speed is 3,000 to 3,500 rpm on mine. At that speed, mine shifts like butter. Outside that range, especially on the low end, it is clunky, (using Valvoline High Performance 80/90 gear oil).

    Also, I find that you need to ensure that 3rd gear is in place.. not forcing it but if you don't get it all the way into gear, mine seems like it's in 3rd, but it is not and I get a neutral condition. I wonder if that is characteristic of the gearbox. Maybe others can chime in.

    If you take it apart, I have thoughts on good replacement parts.
    Interesting that yours is third gear, mine is the exact symptoms but second gear. Being second, it makes it very difficult to shift when dealing with speed bumps where I am - first is too low, third is too high and second is a PITA to shift into! I also do not recall there being any centrifugal weights on the pressure plate, mine looks the same as pictured in page three of the thread you posted.
    -----Dan B.

  8. #8
    LS1 DMC Nicholas R's Avatar
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    My first guess would be your cross gate cable. If you're having trouble with both first, second, and reverse, I think your cable is just adjusted too far to one side. It's amazing how much of a difference just a tiny bit of adjustment at the cable makes at the shifter. My transmission was recently shifting really hard into first and second, and I attributed it to the transmission being very worn (I believe it has over 500,000mi on it). I decided to try giving it about one adjustment nut turn away from 5th gear and closer to 1st and 2nd where the cross gate cable mounts at the back of the transmission, and wow, talk about a difference. 500k miles or not, the transmission is now shifting pretty great.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gregadeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David T View Post
    The replacement clutches will have a lighter pedal pressure too.
    I've read that before, and was looking forward to having that benefit. But my clutch was replaced by DMC last year and I don't think I can feel any difference in the pedal pressure, still heavy.

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