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Thread: 3.0L Megasquirt w/ EDIS: Headers running at different temps?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Oh man, trying to make the mishmash of hose sizes work was frustrating. If the 3.0 has a 3/4 that further complicates it. Nice that you could find a reducing hose!
    If not for googling about hose clamps and leaks the day before, I wouldn't have realized that such a small difference in hose vs connector size would make it unsealable.

    I don't remember if the 2.8L was 3/4" or 5/8", and I can't remember if I replaced the heater hoses at the engine. I did replace a number of hoses, though, so I may have put a 3/4" on there after finding that a 5/8" wouldn't fit. The one on the passenger side seems to mate to the existing DMC pipes without leaking, so at least there's that.

    I still had the aluminum T on my car and wanted to replace it before it broke. The combo of sizes to bleeder don't exist in anything reasonably priced. I found a manual heater shut off valve at Autozone, removed the valve portion, and soldered a barbed fitting to the top.
    Mine has a plastic "T", but I have no idea where it came from. I had to replace the hot water valve after the vacuum nipple snapped off, but I can't remember if I replaced the "T" as well or just reused what was already there. If I replaced it, it was probably plastic as well, as I would have gotten a new one of the same material as the original.

    -- Joe

  2. #72
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    For idle, I want to go with the 790 spec'ed in the manuals, and boost it when the A/C is on at idle. It's my first time doing an engine control system, so I figure playing it safe is the way to go.

    -- Joe

  3. #73
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Do you have any inputs left on MS2 for AC idle-up?

    I use MS3 for full AC control but I have the 3X board. The chain of low/high cutoff switches and the dash AC control is now a "call for AC" signal that is connected to the N2O input on the 3X board. I used the N2O input as it's already set up to look for a 12v signal.

    MS then decides if conditions are good for AC (is the engine running? Are we not wide open throttle? Are we under 5000 RPM and above 800 RPM?) and triggers the AC compressor.

    Next step will be to remove the Fanzilla and build a stagger-start fan control setup that's wired natively for the MS negative fan trigger output.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

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  4. #74
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    I think there are four unused pins, labeled Spare 1 (CanH), 2 (CanL), 3 and 4 next to the sensor return pin on the top of the connector. I haven't looked into how to use these yet. My long-term goal is to build some kind of modern automatic climate control based on the desired cabin temperature, at which point I'll be able to directly tell MS to boost. the RPMs from a single signal (I plan on monitoring MS myself through the RS232 port).

    In the interim, I was planning on simply the hooking the MS pin up to the wire that runs the A/C compressor. Your setup sounds a lot more interesting than that, though.

    I'm running DMC NW's Wings B Cool fans, which draw a lot less power and reduce the need to turn them on one at a time, but I do still have a Fanzilla installed (I think; I've removed enough stuff that I've lost track).

    -- Joe

  5. #75
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Spare 1 / 2 would need to have been jumpered to inputs on the microcontroller. The manuals cover what's necessary, but IIRC the remaining inputs are all 5v level, so you'd have to build a level shifter to monitor the 12V AC input. CanH / CanL are probably already wired for CANbus.

    You could look into a CANbus solution for monitoring inputs. If you're headed towards climate control I'm assuming you're familiar with Arduino or other microcontrollers? There are a few CANbus options for Arduino and reading inputs/statuses is pretty easy. That's my next project - Arduino-based CANbus GPS receiver/transmitter and seat heater/cooler control.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

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  6. #76
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    I think I have some level shifters around here somewhere, but they're probably 3.3v to 5v. Good to know about those pins.

    I wasn't sure if I wanted to use CANbus. It mostly depended on what other hardware I could get for this project, and if it was easier to figure out CAN than just building something from scratch. My eventual goal is to replace the vacuum actuators with electric motors that can be more easily controlled. I've already re-routed the A/C ducting for a double-din radio instead (I did the "put round early-2000s Mitsubishi Eclipse vents in the kneepads" mod that some other people have done, although due to an oversight regarding the depth of the head unit I had to build a new air distributor box so that the radio would seat properly). I'm a bit of a novice at electronics, but I've had success with some of my simpler projects (here are some links: Flux Capacitor, Washer/Dryer Done, Office Lights). The problem with using off-the-shelf CANbus hardware seem to be figuring out what will actually work for the project, since everything seems to be specialized to particular cars, and may not actually work in my application.

    My longer-term goal is indeed to use Arduinos to send data to a dedicated computer, probably a Mac mini (if they keep making them, anyway; rumor is they'll finally update them this year). This would also listen to MegaSquirt on the RS232 (although now I'm wondering if MS can communicate via CANbus...?), since it seems to have a simple serial protocol. Then I'd replace the instrument cluster with a widescreen LCD that displayed relevant information as needed. Climate controls would be another LCD replacing the existing mechanical controls. I might go with Unreal Engine for the UI, since it's very fast to prototype with and I can get some nice effects and load 3D models and stuff like that (previously I'd planned on writing a dedicated macOS app, but I'm starting to think a game engine might be more useful here).

    I want to capture as many states as I can -- all the lights on the instrument cluster, gauges (which I'll read from MS where possible, with A2D converters for oil pressure and fuel level), door open states, etc. Ultimately I want to build a model of the DeLorean and have it mirror what is happening with the real car on-screen, which is kind of redundant but would look neat.

    And then I can install that electric power steering mod, the electric brake booster mod, and a modern cruise control mod, and tie all that into a Bluetooth-enabled app on my phone to drive the car remotely. And very, very slowly, at very short range. Maybe mock up a big boxy 1980s remote control for that authentic Back to the Future feel.

    So I have some plans. . Been meaning to do some of this for over a decade, but the tech is finally at a point where a lot of it is pretty viable. That, and the important issue of getting the car drivable again is very, very close to being resolved.

    -- Joe

  7. #77
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    I'm assuming that I won't have much trouble getting a good warm idle on Saturday, once I replace that coolant hose and now that I have the coils on the right cylinders.

    As I understand it, for warm idle I'll be adjusting the throttle screw and the VE table cells at the idle MAP and RPM to get the AFR where I want. To aid this, I've re-defined one of the columns as the 790 RPM.

    As for the ignition timing/spark advance/whatever-it's-called table, do I need to make any changes there? I've adjusted it to have a 500 RPM column and a 790 RPM column, with the intention of setting the 500 RPM one slightly high to recover from possible stalls (I finally found that page that suggested this). I also redefined one of the columns to 790 RPM for good measure. But without knowing what the official timing values should be, is there really anything I can do here? Should I just stick to messing with the VE table and throttle screw, and leave the ignition table alone?


    Once I'm idling smoothly at 790 RPM... what do I do next? I guess I take it for a drive around the block? After I fill the A/C system, that is.


    Also, for cold starts, I'm currently using open loop with Josh's IAC curve (I have to copy one the warm up enrichment curve still). Should I bother messing around with that once I have a good warm idle, or just switch to closed loop with a target of 790 RPM and be done with it? I know I want to stay at open loop until I have a good warm idle that doesn't seek, but after that, can I just flip the switch to closed loop not think about it anymore? I mean, is there even any tuning you can do to closed loop?

    Thanks again!

    -- Joe

  8. #78
    '82 T3 Turbo FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    This would also listen to MegaSquirt on the RS232 (although now I'm wondering if MS can communicate via CANbus...?)
    Yep, full two way communication. I have a Perfect Tuning gauge in my car: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/5...sal-gauge.html. It's neato. I also repurposed the Lambda light as a "check engine" light but that's driven right from MS.


    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    I want to capture as many states as I can -- all the lights on the instrument cluster, gauges (which I'll read from MS where possible, with A2D converters for oil pressure and fuel level), door open states, etc. Ultimately I want to build a model of the DeLorean and have it mirror what is happening with the real car on-screen, which is kind of redundant but would look neat.
    Sounds like you pretty much need to get CANbus up and going then. Plant various microcontrollers around the car and network them all together. If you want MS to be heavily involved you may need to consider MS3. Unless someone creates an open source body control module, which seems unlikely. I found a longstanding bug in MS3 AC control so there doesn't seem to be a lot of dev focus on creature comfort.


    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    As for the ignition timing/spark advance/whatever-it's-called table, do I need to make any changes there? I've adjusted it to have a 500 RPM column and a 790 RPM column, with the intention of setting the 500 RPM one slightly high to recover from possible stalls (I finally found that page that suggested this). I also redefined one of the columns to 790 RPM for good measure. But without knowing what the official timing values should be, is there really anything I can do here?
    Timing is best tuned on the dyno - I have no input regarding street tuning timing. Other than reverse-engineering the Chrysler ECU (either the native code or by finding an operational Monaco and logging MAP/RPM/Spark sensors) or finding a map from a [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_PRV_engine#PRV_powered_automobiles"contemporary PRV[/url] you're probably stuck with an auto-generated table.


    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    Once I'm idling smoothly at 790 RPM... what do I do next? I guess I take it for a drive around the block?
    It's not a static display, right? You'll probably want to bring someone that can at least watch AFRs for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by jangell View Post
    I mean, is there even any tuning you can do to closed loop?
    MS2 and 3 are probably different here. With CL you set the idle speed -vs- coolant temp. With MS2 you can probably adjust either the PID values, or I know MS3 has a sensitivity slider. The manuals cover tuning of both. I created a tab in Megalogviewer that lets me know how far off the idle target and actual idle are and you can tweak things from there.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

    Console5.com - Game console parts, kits, games and more. [shop] [wiki] [RSS] [f] [t]

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Yep, full two way communication.
    Now that's interesting. I might have to look into CANbus more closely. I wonder if there's an easy-to-use USB adaptor with Mac drivers and a good API... Although it's pretty easy to open a serial port, I guess.

    I have a Perfect Tuning gauge in my car: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/5...sal-gauge.html. It's neato. I also repurposed the Lambda light as a "check engine" light but that's driven right from MS.
    That's a pretty neat unit.

    How does the "check engine" light work? I mean, what conditions did you set up in MS?

    Sounds like you pretty much need to get CANbus up and going then. Plant various microcontrollers around the car and network them all together.
    Pretty much my plan, although I was just going to get Arudinos with built-in Bluetooth and have them talk directly to the Mac. Bluetooth mostly saves me the trouble from running wires all around the car to the computer, although I'll obviously still need power and ground to each unit.

    If you want MS to be heavily involved you may need to consider MS3. Unless someone creates an open source body control module, which seems unlikely. I found a longstanding bug in MS3 AC control so there doesn't seem to be a lot of dev focus on creature comfort.
    I always saw MS as a kind of black box for engine control (as far as the final install with the computer goes) and an input to the computer, with the computer doing most of the creature comfort work work as well as being the primary display. I should have horsepower to burn if Apple actually updates the Mac mini this fall, but even an older model should be more than capable.

    Timing is best tuned on the dyno - I have no input regarding street tuning timing. Other than reverse-engineering the Chrysler ECU (either the native code or by finding an operational Monaco and logging MAP/RPM/Spark sensors) or finding a map from a [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_PRV_engine#PRV_powered_automobiles"contemporary PRV[/url] you're probably stuck with an auto-generated table.
    I'm fine with the generated table -- it's one less variable to deal with.

    It's not a static display, right? You'll probably want to bring someone that can at least watch AFRs for you.
    Just making sure there aren't any pre-drive steps I missed.

    Should I turn back on acceleration enrichment for this first run? I noticed that it seems to be effectively off for early drives in some of the docs I've read, and I haven't looked into how to tune I yet. I do know that I'll have to be careful not to stall out by slamming on the gas if I don't have it turned on.

    I do plan to lean on auto-tune pretty heavily for general tuning, once I'm confident enough to take it on the highway.

    MS2 and 3 are probably different here. With CL you set the idle speed -vs- coolant temp. With MS2 you can probably adjust either the PID values, or I know MS3 has a sensitivity slider. The manuals cover tuning of both. I created a tab in Megalogviewer that lets me know how far off the idle target and actual idle are and you can tweak things from there.
    I do seem to be able to set an RPM vs CLT curve in MS2 (well, they're not disabled in TunerStudio, anyway). I'll read through the manuals and bug you again once I have warm idle working.

    Thanks!

    -- Joe

  10. #80
    Not a DeLorean Guru
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    "That's a pretty neat unit."

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    1981 DeLorean, Carb LS4 swap completed
    1999 Corvette, cam/headers/intake manifold, 400 rwhp
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