Double Bars Blues

[opethmike]

I second not needing the jig. That's only for if the louvers remain on. Frankly, I think it is safer to do it the louvers off and the breaker bar/socket directly into the torsion bar than having a bunch of extensions and the jig to worry about.

[powerline84]

Yeah man I think they all are at this point . I mean it was just adhesive. You will notice your doors close better as well . Dont be surprised if you have to adjust the hinges in the doors slightly .

[MikeWard]

Meantime I'd say your roof box looks normal in this photo. The brackets usually rotate a tad due to the mounting hole clearances - I see no buckling or deformation of the box. Other votes on that?

That roof box has lifted for sure, if the bars were still intact it would look even worse than the picture shows. The separation of the box is the most likely cause of the bars snapping.

I think mine was caught just in time;
Bars in
IMG_9853.jpg

Bars out
IMG_9899.jpg

Re the jig, having done it myself in my opinion it's much safer to go with a jig and extension bars, but to each their own.

Flick through the pictures on the repair kit page on DeLoreanGo and it will show dimensions for an adjustment jig. https://www.deloreango.com/us/roof-box-repair-kit.html

[Rich]

You're dead right about the box starting to lift. When I unbolted the retaining plates this morning I definitely saw movement. Time to get the headliner out.

Nice. Go for it.

A little movement is normal when the torque is removed even on a good box, but it's less than 1mm. The boxes aren't infinitely rigid and there's no spec.

Good luck with the job.

When you get a chance please post up a photo of the forward piece of one of the bars installed in its front hinge - curious to see where it broke relative to rear hinge. No need to send a pic of both bars since you report they each broke in the exact same spot. This is about the failure mode.

[Rich_NYS]

There needs to be clearance between the torsion bar & hinges...do you think your torsion bars might've been rubbing?

Luke pointed it out to me, and I've heard it mentioned a few more times since.

[Rich]

There needs to be clearance between the torsion bar & hinges...do you think your torsion bars might've been rubbing?

Luke pointed it out to me, and I've heard it mentioned a few more times since.

+1

You are on to my question about this particular situation. Both of the OP's bars reportedly broke at "exact same place" at different times recently. Later there's a report that this failure location is at or near rear hinge.

This seems to be a strong pattern with D torsion bars - perhaps a vendor will chime in on their experience in this.

I contend that a properly-torqued bar (never up-torqued to compensate for a worn strut) that's cushioned from the rear hinge (or not in contact with hinge to begin with) will last indefinitely. Oh, and the bar's surface must not be nicked with tools during other work such as upper door seal replacement...

[FABombjoy]

I caught my drivers side bar just as the hinge was starting to polish it from very light contact (around 1999 or so). Left much longer and I'm sure it would have been damaged enough to break. You should be able to pass at least a business card between the bar and hinge. If not, its rubbing.

PO had a dealer adjust the bar to compensate for worn struts which accelerated the debonding and shifting process. I did the sheet metal screw through the rear method going around at the time but should probably switch to the bolt through method being done now.

[David T]

All of the broken torsion bars that I have seen have broken right in the area where it passes by the rear hinge. My suggestion is to get a small piece of old inner tube, about a 2" X 3" piece, and stick it in between the bar and the hinge. You can pull the bar away just enough with your fingers. DO NOT USE ANY METAL TOOLS THAT CAN COME IN CONTACT WITH THE BAR EXCEPT THE 3/8 ALLEN TOOL IN THE END! Unless you want all that extra work fussing with the rear louvers, the jig and the extension bar is necessary and not all that hard to use. The jig you can make, the extension can be expensive but if you cheap out and buy junk you can get hurt. There is a LOT of power in those torsion bars and you really should use quality tools. Besides a long breaker bar, I have 5 feet of pipe I slide over it to make it easy to do. When doing the torsion bar you should have everything and anything you may need handy including taps, wrenches, pliers, pry bars, files, etc so your poor assistant doesn't have to hold the bar longer than necessary. Not unusual to find a bolt for an anchor cross/threaded or stripped, difficult to slide an anchor bracket off the torsion bar that kind of thing. Sometimes the bar is cracked right where the 3/8 allen fits into the bar. Very bad. It causes the bar to expand and prevents you from sliding the anchor off. If you are messing with a torsion bar you must be ready for any eventuality. Otherwise it is best to leave them to someone with some experience. Some DMC cubs offer free torsion bar adjustments. That "free" service makes it more than pay to be a member. NEVER adjust a torsion bar to compensate for weak door struts. Over torquing the torsion bars can contribute to the roof separating, bending and breaking the anchors. Before touching the torsion bar use a pencil and make a mark on the bar and the anchor so you KNOW it's last position. Rare to have to adjust it more than 1 spline. You can adjust 1/2 spline by loosening the bolts, turning the torsion bar and tightening the bar. There is enough play in the holes in the anchor to get a little bit of an adjustment that way. When removing the bars they must be protected so nothing rubs or scratches the surface and creates a "stress riser". It WILL cause it to crack. When working on the torsion bar you must be very careful around the Tee roof. When you remove the rear plastic valence it exposes a VERY sharp edge of the Tee roof. Be very careful with that plastic valence, they are NLA so be gentle. To remove it you roll it out (rotate it) after removing the 3 screws.

[dn010]

Again, if you open the doors as MAX as you can, you're really not dealing with nearly as much torsion. If you leave the door piston installed and mess with the bars at this point then you will deal with a lot of torsion that is unnecessary if you'd just open the door all the way with piston removed. You don't even need to remove the entire piston, just pop it off the door and then rotate the piston towards you and lay it down. Max position with the T-panel installed is when the door contacts the panel, with it removed you can go even further. The plastic valances are NLA but stainless is readily available. The louvers are already removed so there is no need for a jig, not only that it's 4 nuts holding the louver on and you can even leave the struts installed, just mark the louver hinges with some nail polish or similar so you can easily line it back up when reassembling.

It was suggested above that you may need to adjust the door/hinges afterwards. I would suggest NOT to adjust the door at the hinges unless for some reason you really need to. Some people get lucky - they unbolt the door and then are able to quickly align everything to their standards, for those people I'd love for you to come adjust my driver side door. Myself and others have not had luck with "quickly" adjusting the doors, it is a PITA to get it perfect and can do more harm than good if you get it wrong. There is a lot of room for adjustments at the door hinges-in towards the middle of the car, out away, hinge all the way up towards the roof, all the way down, angled up, angled down, etc. and there are TWO hinges to adjust, and then you've got the pins.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

All of the broken torsion bars that I have seen have broken right in the area where it passes by the rear hinge. My suggestion is to get a small piece of old inner tube, about a 2" X 3" piece, and stick it in between the bar and the hinge. You can pull the bar away just enough with your fingers. DO NOT USE ANY METAL TOOLS THAT CAN COME IN CONTACT WITH THE BAR EXCEPT THE 3/8 ALLEN TOOL IN THE END! Unless you want all that extra work fussing with the rear louvers, the jig and the extension bar is necessary and not all that hard to use. The jig you can make, the extension can be expensive but if you cheap out and buy junk you can get hurt. There is a LOT of power in those torsion bars and you really should use quality tools. Besides a long breaker bar, I have 5 feet of pipe I slide over it to make it easy to do. When doing the torsion bar you should have everything and anything you may need handy including taps, wrenches, pliers, pry bars, files, etc so your poor assistant doesn't have to hold the bar longer than necessary. Not unusual to find a bolt for an anchor cross/threaded or stripped, difficult to slide an anchor bracket off the torsion bar that kind of thing. Sometimes the bar is cracked right where the 3/8 allen fits into the bar. Very bad. It causes the bar to expand and prevents you from sliding the anchor off. If you are messing with a torsion bar you must be ready for any eventuality. Otherwise it is best to leave them to someone with some experience. Some DMC cubs offer free torsion bar adjustments. That "free" service makes it more than pay to be a member. NEVER adjust a torsion bar to compensate for weak door struts. Over torquing the torsion bars can contribute to the roof separating, bending and breaking the anchors. Before touching the torsion bar use a pencil and make a mark on the bar and the anchor so you KNOW it's last position. Rare to have to adjust it more than 1 spline. You can adjust 1/2 spline by loosening the bolts, turning the torsion bar and tightening the bar. There is enough play in the holes in the anchor to get a little bit of an adjustment that way. When removing the bars they must be protected so nothing rubs or scratches the surface and creates a "stress riser". It WILL cause it to crack. When working on the torsion bar you must be very careful around the Tee roof. When you remove the rear plastic valence it exposes a VERY sharp edge of the Tee roof. Be very careful with that plastic valence, they are NLA so be gentle. To remove it you roll it out (rotate it) after removing the 3 screws.

[AugustneverEnds]

Again, if you open the doors as MAX as you can, you're really not dealing with nearly as much torsion. If you leave the door piston installed and mess with the bars at this point then you will deal with a lot of torsion that is unnecessary if you'd just open the door all the way with piston removed. You don't even need to remove the entire piston, just pop it off the door and then rotate the piston towards you and lay it down. Max position with the T-panel installed is when the door contacts the panel, with it removed you can go even further. The plastic valances are NLA but stainless is readily available. The louvers are already removed so there is no need for a jig, not only that it's 4 nuts holding the louver on and you can even leave the struts installed, just mark the louver hinges with some nail polish or similar so you can easily line it back up when reassembling.

It was suggested above that you may need to adjust the door/hinges afterwards. I would suggest NOT to adjust the door at the hinges unless for some reason you really need to. Some people get lucky - they unbolt the door and then are able to quickly align everything to their standards, for those people I'd love for you to come adjust my driver side door. Myself and others have not had luck with "quickly" adjusting the doors, it is a PITA to get it perfect and can do more harm than good if you get it wrong. There is a lot of room for adjustments at the door hinges-in towards the middle of the car, out away, hinge all the way up towards the roof, all the way down, angled up, angled down, etc. and there are TWO hinges to adjust, and then you've got the pins.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Thanks for your advice. I'm waiting for the kit I ordered to bolt the roof down and after that's done I will install the torsion bars. I do plan to follow your guidelines and disconnect the door struts. The T-panel is off so no worries there, the louvres are off and they need new struts so I ordered those too. My doors alignment was acceptable before so I don't plan on touching the hinges unless something shifts radically. It's been cold (even for upstate NY) around here lately, I still need to take a pic of the broken torsion bars for everyone to see.