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Thread: Another high idle thread - how-to on butterfly plate springs?

  1. #31
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    Roger that, I will test the vacuum again when the car has sat for a few more hours to cool. If there is *not* vacuum at the WUR when cold, is it possible the hoses were simply placed on the thermal switch backwards?
    In #8, you had vacuum going to the solenoid when warm, as it should be. If they were backwards, you would not have had vacuum then...

    Cold you want:
    Vacuum from thermal vacuum control valve to WUR/CPR
    No vacuum to solenoid (so, no vacuum to distributor, switch doesn't matter).

    Warm you want:
    No vacuum from thermal vacuum control valve to WUR/CPR.
    Vacuum to solenoid.
    No vacuum to the distributor at idle (switch is pressed).
    Vacuum to distributor above idle (switch is not pressed).

    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    I did a valley job to put new water hoses in a few weeks ago and a lot of these idle issues have cropped up or become more obvious since then. If that's the case, my test of just swapping the hose to the center nipple on the solenoid and the hose feeding the plastic T on the WUR should be helpful - and a possible temporary fix?

    Will work on the throttle adjustments only after I rule out these other factors.

    Thanks as always Ron!
    If you have vacuum to the WUR/CPR when cold, then the thermal vacuum control valve is incorrectly sending vacuum to both...If nothing has changed.
    If I'm following you- If they were backwards, swapping the end at the WUR with the end at the center nipple on the solenoid would be a permanent fix.

    YW!

  2. #32
    My friends think I'm nuts jawn101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    In #8, you had vacuum going to the solenoid when warm, as it should be. If they were backwards, you would not have had vacuum then...

    Cold you want:
    Vacuum from thermal vacuum control valve to WUR/CPR
    No vacuum to solenoid (so, no vacuum to distributor, switch doesn't matter).

    Warm you want:
    No vacuum from thermal vacuum control valve to WUR/CPR.
    Vacuum to solenoid.
    No vacuum to the distributor at idle (switch is pressed).
    Vacuum to distributor above idle (switch is not pressed).


    If you have vacuum to the WUR/CPR when cold, then the thermal vacuum control valve is incorrectly sending vacuum to both...If nothing has changed.
    If I'm following you- If they were backwards, swapping the end at the WUR with the end at the center nipple on the solenoid would be a permanent fix.

    YW!
    Alrighty. Just did this all again. No vacuum at the center nipple on the solenoid cold, vacuum at the WUR instead. Unplugging the vacuum supply to the WUR during warmup significantly worsened the running condition, so it’s doing it’s job. After warmup, the vacuum supply was reversed as expected. So, that ain’t it.

    I guess it’s just down to adjusting those mechanical parts a bit. And I’d sure love to find a way to make the oil filler cap seal better, the hoses to it are constantly oil-filmy.

    All of this hyperattention to vacuum and idle quality has me wondering if the whole motor doesn’t sound a little....chuggy. Something for another day, it might also just be the smooooooooth sounds of an odd fire V6. Need to compare it to a buddy’s.
    Jon
    1981 DMC-12 #02100. July 1981. 5-speed, black, grooved w/flap.
    restoration log, March 2011 to present
    full and detailed photo restoration log

  3. #33
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    Alrighty. Just did this all again. No vacuum at the center nipple on the solenoid cold, vacuum at the WUR instead.
    Are you thinking you didn't let it cool off enough during the test before (post 8 )? Or, another change?

    Assuming you checked the distributor for a vacuum leak?

    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    I guess it’s just down to adjusting those mechanical parts a bit. And I’d sure love to find a way to make the oil filler cap seal better, the hoses to it are constantly oil-filmy.
    I don't see it causing all of the symptoms, but a bad o-ring on the cap is a vacuum leak...Take it to a large auto parts and get them to match out a replacement if worn. Otherwise, get a slightly larger one and/or used more than one. (Take the D with you and check the fit before you leave...;-)

    If the distributor isn't leaking vacuum, I agree it's time to try making it close tighter.

  4. #34
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    Unplugging the vacuum supply to the WUR during warmup significantly worsened the running condition, so it’s doing it’s job.
    The vacuum at the WUR is part of a cold acceleration enrichment circuit. If you removed the vacuum line, plugged it, and it still ran worse after a few seconds that's unusual.

    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    And I’d sure love to find a way to make the oil filler cap seal better, the hoses to it are constantly oil-filmy.
    Get rid of the silicone hoses there. Plain silicone hose is not suitable for crankcase ventilation. Pick up emissions-rated vacuum hose from any auto parts store and it'll stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I don't see it causing all of the symptoms, but a bad o-ring on the cap is a vacuum leak..
    Not significantly from a fueling standpoint as its through the fixed orifice. The free oxygen in the crankcase vapors would be slightly less but it also mingles with the fresh air from the air filter hose. Not to say he shouldn't fix a loose O ring problem but the oily hoses are from the use of silicone.
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    And I’d sure love to find a way to make the oil filler cap seal better, the hoses to it are constantly oil-filmy.
    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Get rid of the silicone hoses there. Plain silicone hose is not suitable for crankcase ventilation. Pick up emissions-rated vacuum hose from any auto parts store and it'll stop.
    A question about this as I have the same oil-filmy-ness on some of my hoses.

    Is this a matter of the oil actually permeating its way through the hose? Like in a tiny, pore size way?

    I put in a replacement silicone, nice blue coloured hose kit and this is exactly what I see on more than one of those hoses going either in or out of the charcoal canister area or to and from the oil filler.

    Sounds like proper rubber hoses are what is best here? Although I only see the silicone hose sets for sale. On the DeLoreanGO page anyway. Houston has them individually, original rubber ones I would assume, but no kits that I could see.


    Sept. 81, auto, black interior

  6. #36
    '82 T3 FABombjoy's Avatar
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    Oil rated or fuel rated hose will cure the problem. Parts stores will sell PCV rated hose, but you could use oil cooler, trans cooler, or fuel hose too. It just gets more expensive and less flexible if you use fuel/oil hose vs emissions hose.

    https://www.instructables.com/id/Why...-Oil-and-Fuel/
    Luke S :: 10270 :: 82 Grey 5-Speed :: Single Watercooled T3 .60/.48 :: Borla Exhaust :: MSD Ignition :: MS3X Fully SFI Odd-fire EFI :: DevilsOwn Methanol Injection

  7. #37
    My friends think I'm nuts jawn101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Are you thinking you didn't let it cool off enough during the test before (post 8 )? Or, another change?

    Assuming you checked the distributor for a vacuum leak?


    I don't see it causing all of the symptoms, but a bad o-ring on the cap is a vacuum leak...Take it to a large auto parts and get them to match out a replacement if worn. Otherwise, get a slightly larger one and/or used more than one. (Take the D with you and check the fit before you leave...;-)

    If the distributor isn't leaking vacuum, I agree it's time to try making it close tighter.
    Hey Ron - so I didn’t test the vacuum *inbound* to the solenoid from the valley when the car was cold on the first test. That was my screwup as it left me with no control value for the cold symptoms.

    So it seems to me that these connections are good. I’m not sure how to test the distributor as a leak source, do you have a test in mind that makes sense for that?

    Will look into replacing the crankcase hoses with proper rubber at some point, I didn’t know this was a thing - as others mentioned, all the vendors sell full silicone kits nowadays so I assumed it was OK. I’ll also peel off that O-ring from the filler neck and see what Napa can do for me. O’Reilly and Autozone never seem to have this kind of thing.
    Jon
    1981 DMC-12 #02100. July 1981. 5-speed, black, grooved w/flap.
    restoration log, March 2011 to present
    full and detailed photo restoration log

  8. #38
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABombjoy View Post
    Not significantly from a fueling standpoint as its through the fixed orifice. The free oxygen in the crankcase vapors would be slightly less but it also mingles with the fresh air from the air filter hose. Not to say he shouldn't fix a loose O ring problem but the oily hoses are from the use of silicone.
    Ah, I didn't catch that he had silicone hoses...had a vision of fumes collecting on them...

    Totally agree that the leak is not the problem.

  9. #39
    Administrator Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jawn101 View Post
    Hey Ron - so I didn’t test the vacuum *inbound* to the solenoid from the valley when the car was cold on the first test. That was my screwup as it left me with no control value for the cold symptoms.

    So it seems to me that these connections are good. I’m not sure how to test the distributor as a leak source, do you have a test in mind that makes sense for that?

    Will look into replacing the crankcase hoses with proper rubber at some point, I didn’t know this was a thing - as others mentioned, all the vendors sell full silicone kits nowadays so I assumed it was OK. I’ll also peel off that O-ring from the filler neck and see what Napa can do for me. O’Reilly and Autozone never seem to have this kind of thing.
    A timing light wouldn't tell you unless it was real bad. So, I use a tester similar to this one https://www.enginehones.com/5270.html.
    But, you could connect a clean hose to the distributor and manually draw the air out then use your tongue to block it off and see if it holds vacuum...

    FWIW- Not only is that all you have left to check vacuum wise in that part of the system. A bad diaphragm in the distributor could easily fit the RPM raising when it warms up. But it probably wouldn't go back down when you hit the throttle every time.

  10. #40
    My friends think I'm nuts jawn101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    A timing light wouldn't tell you unless it was real bad. So, I use a tester similar to this one https://www.enginehones.com/5270.html.
    But, you could connect a clean hose to the distributor and manually draw the air out then use your tongue to block it off and see if it holds vacuum...

    FWIW- Not only is that all you have left to check vacuum wise in that part of the system. A bad diaphragm in the distributor could easily fit the RPM raising when it warms up. But it probably wouldn't go back down when you hit the throttle every time.
    Didn’t your mother ever teach you not to pipette by mouth? Was that just me? Scientist parents, lol. Seems reasonable enough, I could give that a shot.

    Just a question - I’ve never done a smoke test but is this something that would make leaks obvious? I don’t even know how, though I assume it’s a quick google away.
    Jon
    1981 DMC-12 #02100. July 1981. 5-speed, black, grooved w/flap.
    restoration log, March 2011 to present
    full and detailed photo restoration log

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