Delorean Motor Company (DMC) Texas threatening to sue Delorean owners now

[Michael]

A lot of words

Now THAT'S drama!

[DrWin]

So I decided to just ghost everyone equally.

Class act.

Actually, I missed you, even though I don't know you and you left before I got my car and joined the community.
Researching, as best I could, before buying my car I read a lot of DMCtalk.org and I really liked your posts. I have a few of your explanations printed out, hanging in the garage.

When I joined I noticed that you never replied to anything I posted as I had hoped you would.
As in all other (internet) groups there is attrition of people for all sorts of reasons, but it's sad when people have to leave because the debate culture has become toxic.

[DMCVegas]

Great, well-expressed comments, Robert. I personally have avoided facebook, twitter, and other social media too. Just don't need that stuff.

Thank you very much. After disconnecting most all social media, I can honestly say that I'm much happier. I find that it is extremely distasteful. To be bunt I find that 99% of social media is nothing but people vying for attention. Some if it is because people are trying to be *famous* in one way or another, or it's just synthetic lies masquerading as commercial advertising. And the two main ways in which people do this are either by being braggadocios, or feigning tragedy.

I find life to be vexing enough with my own problems that I don't need other people pushing their bullshit on me. Especially with marketing algorithms whose sole purpose is to generate advertising and sales revenue at my expense which simply exacerbate the problem further. Thus I'm much happier since I don't have to subjected to the frustrations and problems of others.

While probably not the right forum for me to address the above comment, I found it interesting. I have always had an eclectic interest in cars - many street rods, and for a while a '32 Ford hot rod roadster, a '54 Chevy, supercharged DeLorean, and tiny Honda Insight all at the same time. But in 2002, with a retirement income and a new good-paying job, I purchased a low mileage C5 Corvette convertible. The chance to do my 20-mile commute top down in 11 degree weather, in a car that went 160 and did 12 second ETs, was just too good to be true. I had no interest in Corvette clubs or other owners, I just did it for me. And a strange thing happened. Within 2 years the DeLorean was gone, and after 20 years the Corvette is still here. With 100k on the clock it has only been in the dealership twice, for minor stuff. It will probably be the final car I own, already promised to my 6 year old granddaughter in 12 years if I and it make it that long. Don't avoid Corvettes (C5 and up) because of "those kind of people", because as you pointed out they are here, too, and everywhere. Get one for you, and you may never look back.

Two things here:

1. That's a great story. I encourage you to write it down. In fact, break out a note pad and jot that topic down, the reason you bought the car, as well as whatever other fun experiences you've had with the car. Then expand upon each of them in a collection of other letters. You can type them up, but I would say to write them down by hand. Record those experiences. Then when your granddaughter inherits the car, the letters go with it so that she can read them. A portfolio for a car is great, and stories to build a history of a vehicle are even better. But with handwritten letters you have something more. She too will connect with the car the same as you have. Years later after you're gone (because none of us gets out of this world alive), she'll have those letters. She can read every word in your voice, and even feel the imprints on the paper that you made when you wrote everything just for her. She can connect with you for years to come.

2. I cannot lie, I have thought about another marque for a fresh start. I considered a C3...along with shaving the badges and taillights off in order to convert it into a quasi-Pontiac Banshee. But I honestly cannot do it. Years ago when I was in Houston (where I actually lived next to the German fellow in Conroe who owned BLWNAWY and the LEDs in the engine compartment he was so proud of) I heard a late model GTO rumbling through an underpass. I drove one years ago at a GM Test Track event when they used to have those, and loved the car. I ran some numbers in my head as to what one would cost, but decided against it. The DeLorean is simply my car. Save for the absence of cupholders (which resulted in a perplexed Bill Collins, on his 2nd or more gin in tonic in hand running to catch a hotel shuttle in the darkness, being chased and interrogated by me en route with the assaulting question of why he didn't think to install cupholders in these cars), it is the perfect car. No matter what else I drive, I'm always sad that I'm not in my DeLorean. That's how I know I love the car, and honestly why I've migrated to pickup trucks. They have a completely different purpose and will never conflict with the DeLorean.

Never say never, of course. But one thing is for certain: The desire to join a club, go to car shows, parades, whatever, has been extinguished for good. I'd rather be alone.

As for DMCH I hope it didn't come across as me being one of the "haters". I know it was just business, but I do think this community has the right to know the history and how they affected some competitors.

I will now crawl back under my rock.

No, I don't view you in that way. Not at all. I do think that there is a lot of information about the marque, which at this point is a fading oral history, that people are not aware of.

While the DeLorean is a car of the 1980's in terms of manufacturing and marketing, it really did not come into it's own and mature until the Internet revolution of the 1990's. I don't want to go into extensive detail here as I don't want to clog this thread with the minutiae of it all, there are some key points that I think people should understand.

1. Internet car culture was born of 3 marques that led the way: DeLorean, Miata, and VW. We laid out the ground work for communications, information, organization, etc.
2. Until the mass communication of the Internet, you had to wait weeks, if not months to receive the solution an owner needed to resolve an issue. Especially since owners within driving distance of a repair facility would be denied help in order maintain profits. Suddenly cars became quickly repairable.
3. As repair knowledge of our cars spread, the anxiety of owning one was diminished.
4. When DMCH took over KAPAC's inventory, they discovered massive hidden caches of parts long thought exhausted which further made our cars attainable.
5. Given the surging popularity, parts sales shot up.

Now at this time, we had a very nasty vendor, DeLorean One in Chatsworth, California. The owner, Ed Bernstein, was at one point a genuinely nice person who completely changed overnight. He monitored the DML and started recording the VIN numbers people posted of their cars. Now this wasn't to brag, but because in the early days when people had questions, you needed to know their VIN in order to know if they had certain revisions to their cars. Otterstat relocations, superseded A/C driers, etc. But Ed was recording the VINs of each person who posted and compiled a blacklist. If you were ever posted on the DML, you were automatically on that list. And if you were on that list, Ed would refuse to ever sell you DeLorean parts again. Case closed.

Ed eventually became more and more enraged once DMCH popped up and were not just competition, but they enabled to marque to continue on without him. His goal was to strike fear into people, and it damn sure worked for a while until Houston's parts supply came onto the scene.

No relationship with a vendor is going to be perfect. Although insight as a buyer for an independent service center is very valuable and I do appreciate you sharing. That is important. Sure as customer I've had a couple of hiccups with DMCH, but they're a damn sight better than others such as Forney and Garden Grove were. And that I think is the crux of it all. When you dealt with declining service centers, and one big vendor who threw his weight around an bullied people, you kept your damned mouth shut. You didn't want to risk a parts embargo resulting in an undrivable car because you said the wrong thing and pissed a vendor off. Yes, nothing has been perfect. There are definitely some questionable things that may not, or even may have valid reasons here and there that DMCH either won't or can't comment on. But the big thing is that despite the bad mouthing, Houston AFAIK has never ever banned someone from purchasing parts. And that right there while being the biggest benefit for the community is Houston's biggest vulnerability. Because unlike the vendors of days gone by, there is no fear of repercussion. That I think is something we should all consider.

[DMCVegas]

Plus 1 to you DMCVegas.

I'm reading "Ready Player Two" and thought your post paired well with this excerpt from the book.


After a few sessions with Sean, I'd realized that the best thing for my mental
health would be to abandon social media altogether. So I had. And it was
the right choice. My anger abated, and my wounded pride began to heal.
I'd finally gained enough distance from my addiction to realize some-
thing. Human beings were never meant to participate in a worldwide social
network comprised of billions of people. We were designed by evolution to
be hunter-gatherers, with the mental capacity to interact and socialize with
the other members of our tribe--a tribe made up of a few hundred other
people at most. Interacting with thousands or even millions of other peo-
ple on a daily basis was way too much for our ape-descended melons to
handle. That was why social media had been gradually driving the entire
population of the world insane since it emerged back around the turn of
the century.
I was even beginning to wonder if the invention of a worldwide social
network was actually the
"Great Filter" that theoretically caused all techno-
logical civilizations to go extinct, instead of nuclear weapons or climate
change. Maybe every time an intelligent species grew advanced enough to
invent a global computer network, they would then develop some form of
social media, which would immediately fill these beings with such an in-
tense hatred for one another that they ended up wiping themselves out
within four or five decades.
Only time would tell.


I started in this community in the mid 90's. Was very active up until some life events mid 2000's, but lurked the entire time. I see old names on here I remember from when I first started, amazed that we still own our original cars. Some of us now a member of the "Half our life of ownership" club. I'm really happy to see them on here even though I haven't seen or talked to them in over 15yrs. I've never joined any other Delorean forum, for various reasons, but mainly the platforms they are on. While I think the DMCTalk interface is way too old, it's still nice.
I also see some really disgusting people on this forum. They bring to the conversation nothing of importance, but just cheap shots and petty bickering. Mocking people for trying to be helpful. It's sad. And not the community I praised on page 165 of Stainless Steel Illusions. Maybe some of you are rolling your eyes. Telling me through the screen to stop being so dramatic, that this is just healthy debate, or I'm looking too fondly of the past. Whatever it is, the Delorean community before all your shit posting was great. It felt like a community you wanted to really get to know people in. Maybe your world has always been shit posting, so you don't know any different. Think on that.

Thank you for the kind words. I've read both RPO & RPT and did enjoy them both. I don't know if part of the criticism of the first book ever made it's way into the inspiration for the sequel, but you can certainly tell that Cline had moved on in his life and had new perspectives. The quote is a very accurate one for contemplating society. Story wise that book echoed concepts of both The Matrix and Virtuosity, but does have some great ideas such as this. Anyway, the criticism in question I felt was very valid. In a nutshell it was addressing the near fetishisms of nostalgia to such an extreme that one can be so attached to the past that they neglect the present and the future. It has been something that has bothered me more and more as I get older. A great quote from Hagakure comes to mind:

“It is said that what is called "the spirit of an age" is something to which one cannot return. That this spirit gradually dissipates is due to the world's coming to an end. For this reason, although one would like to change today's world back to the spirit of one hundred years or more ago, it cannot be done. Thus it is important to make the best out of every generation.”

That is why I choose my words carefully in a previous post. I don't want things to go back to the way they were. I wish that we could simply improve the community as a whole and expel the toxic culture we have now. Jovial snark is fine, but there does come a point where it's just plain trolling. And that is just something that I cannot abide by.

In a previous post I wrote about social media and it's negative impact upon me. Something else too is actual television media.

I enjoy cooking. Breaking bread, let alone the preparation of a meal contains many rituals for us humans, no matter what our culture is. Think about a cup of tea, or coffee. You measure certain accompaniments such as sugar to a precise amount. You nearly always grip the cup a certain way as you stir. You sip a certain way to test flavor or temperature. It is all ritual. Now when I cook, especially a new recipe, I crave feedback. Not simply for accolade, but to try and ensure I have created something I and others enjoy. That is a huge pleasure one can receive in cooking. If something isn't as good as it can been, then I take notes and seek to improve upon things next time. Not a problem. But then I started watching cooking competition shows. I would see how contestants who failed would be humiliated. Even if the prepared a great dish a group of judges would always find a way to undermine their pride so as to pick a "winner" who was supposed to be flawless. I actually started aping this attitude. If something didn't turn out right, let alone absolutely perfect with no advice, I'd become angry with myself just like the people on TV. I would damn near start to hate myself. It robbed me of all the joy of cooking. I had to change, though I couldn't go back to who I was. So I learned and moved on. I stopped watching these cooking competition shows. The funny thing is that now if I ever seen one, I have nothing but disdain for the judges instead of the contestants.

This also came to what was for myself a profound realization late one night. I was watching TV and saw an old episode of The Outer Limits, followed by Alfred Hitchcock Presents. Both good episodes, but it made me realize the stark difference between past television and present. These shows were not just playhouses, but they were products unto themselves. Actors got together, dressed up, and put on a show for the viewer. And all that was demanded of you the viewer was to be entertained. Sure there were commercial breaks to make money from sponsors, but your entire job as a viewer was simply to watch and be entertained. Once it was over they simply hoped that they had put on a great enough show so that you'd tune in next week to repeat the cycle.

That is no longer the case today.

Now for someone who watches TV, shows place allot of fucking demands on viewers. It is no longer a one-way street. Don't get me wrong, there is some fine storytelling out there. But shows now demand that in return for watching I'm supposed to invest not just my time but emotions into these characters. As if they're real people, and as if their lives are somehow tied to mine. Hell, even old fashioned watercooler talk has been commodified. Look at AMC network and how they can't just have a single show, but then have to have "Talking xxx..." after shows to discuss what the viewer just watched.

Then we have cable news. To which it doesn't matter what side of the spectrum you're on, it's all garbage. 90% or more of what is on CNN or Fox News isn't actual news reporting. It's morons sitting there espousing opinions and telling you what to think.

Why are things this way now? I always felt that this movie scene sums up our current media in all forms perfectly as to why it is the way it now is:



We're all nothing by Revenue Generating Units, and antagonizing us is the easiest way to keep us hooked.

My solution was to dump cable TV. I bought an antenna and a house amp. I kept the cable modem for internet access and ran the line for the modem directly after I ripped out the splitter to replace it with the house amp. I get 80 channels off air (most of which, sure, I don't watch since it's either home shopping, religious programming, or variations of these in Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, and/or Armenian). I get my local news, sports events in higher quality thanks to the lack of video compression, classic TV reruns I like, and most importantly it brought psychological balance. I don't get cable news, I don't get reality TV, and I sure as hell don't get the frustration that comes along with them. Got a couple of Apple TV units to complement the OTA TV for things I want to watch, and life is better. I'm happier now, and have more money in my pocket to boot.

I don't know what works for everyone, but it sure as hell did work for me. There's way to much toxicity here nowadays. It wasn't always like this, but I have to question why? Perhaps if more of us disconnected from media and actually engaged one another things would turn around.

P.S. Didn't I buy an engine from you?

[DMCVegas]

Class act.

Actually, I missed you, even though I don't know you and you left before I got my car and joined the community.
Researching, as best I could, before buying my car I read a lot of DMCtalk.org and I really liked your posts. I have a few of your explanations printed out, hanging in the garage.

When I joined I noticed that you never replied to anything I posted as I had hoped you would.
As in all other (internet) groups there is attrition of people for all sorts of reasons, but it's sad when people have to leave because the debate culture has become toxic.

I am quite literally speechless. Thank you for the complement and kind words.

I started winding down posts initially since I don't like to do "me too!" posts. If someone has a solution to a question that's already posted, I don't feel the need to respond. At that point I'm just purposefully inserting myself into a conversation simply for my own ego. I've seen lots of people do that over the years, and I don't care for it. Partially because I realized that with the hours I've spent reading books, in libraries searching microfiche page by page, writing correspondence, etc., I realized that had I spent that same amount of time at university I would likely hold a doctoral degree by now. But mostly because I do not wish to present myself as some sort of guru that either has all the answers, or worse yet acts as though I am the only one with any answers. I fail to see virtue in either scenario.

Did I do the right thing in ghosting everyone? No, I don't feel as though it was 100% right. It was the right thing to do for me, but not to others. I regret that things had to go that way. Make no mistake, it was not just two or more people on opposite sides of a single subject. It was multiple people, and it was different subjects with entirely different groups of people to those others. It saddens me a bit that things happened that way, but they had to.

Will I return to the message boards? I don't know. There is already much information going around and plenty of volunteers, I'm quite simply no one special. No different than anyone else.

Funny enough I did decide to take up a new hobby: fishing. I then discovered that my pole is too long for my compact car and even the bed of my pickup truck. So as it turns out I'll need the DeLorean and my luggage rack just simply to go fishing. No matter what this car finds a new way to always become a necessity in my life...

One day I'd love to make it to Eurofest to see the remnants of the factory. Perhaps we'll meet there sometime. And perhaps I will become more involved with the community...at least online.

They say you should become the change you wish to see. I don't know if I have the strength for that anymore on a community which has become so alien, and which has become so comfortable with the negativity. Or to put it another way...

They also say that if you meet an asshole during the course of your day, you met an asshole. If you run into nothing but assholes all day long, chances are you're the one who is an asshole. Am I the asshole here? It is something I have to ask myself, and removing myself from the equation allowed me to evade seeking an answer for the time being...

[SonnyV]

Houston AFAIK has never ever banned someone from purchasing parts.

They banned long-time owner Chad K. from buying parts over sharing memes about their failure to build cars.

[Timeless]

After disconnecting most all social media, I can honestly say that I'm much happier. I find that it is extremely distasteful. To be bunt I find that 99% of social media is nothing but people vying for attention.
I find life to be vexing enough with my own problems that I don't need other people pushing their bullshit on me. Especially with marketing algorithms whose sole purpose is to generate advertising and sales revenue at my expense which simply exacerbate the problem further. Thus I'm much happier since I don't have to subjected to the frustrations and problems of others.

I too have ZERO social media accounts. They are terrible and nothing but garbage - don't get me started about America hating Zuckerberg & Co. Pure junk that nobody needs period.

My solution was to dump cable TV

I have done this as well.

[DMCVegas]

They banned long-time owner Chad K. from buying parts over sharing memes about their failure to build cars.

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Do you actually have any? If no, you're just spreading rumors and lies.
2. There is a much longer list of people who have likely agitated DMCH long before even he came onto the scene that are far more likely to be "banned" from purchasing parts if Houston ever did such a thing. A couple of memes are not going to have that level of impact that he (let alone you) think they would have.
3. Last I heard online, Chad was complaining that DMC denied working on his car because he had a homemade carburetor rigged up to his engine. A system which if I recall he was vehemently dissatisfied with. Still, it was hardly a case if him being "banned". Declining to perform work on something that is clearly out of your scope of support is hardly being ostracized. That's like complaining your ISP has banned you from tech support for refusing to work on your printer or network.
4. This incident was a prime "I told you so" moment when I voiced opposition to the lack of documentation on installation and tuning so that any owner could independently maintain their cars. Something that many trolls just decided to pile onto me for (and Chad too)...yet it turns out it was indeed a valid concern.
5. Finally, you're posting from an anonymous account. Your words carry no weight, let alone validity within the community as a whole.

That last point is a very crucial one. You see, certainly you had a laugh with the gag account, and I'm sure others have as well. But what's the point now? The joke has long expired, yet you keep on posting under this account. So what is the purpose in it now except to try and maintain anonymity so that you can troll in order to cause and perpetuate discord among people? If you had the courage, you'd post under your real identity, but you don't want to be accountable for your words, do you?

The biggest thing here that amuses me is this: That whole "Sonny V" shit happened 2 decades ago, yet you, and others like you, just won't let it go. It's the only thing you have. But James has since apologized and like the rest of the community has moved on. The thing here isn't simply that you can't move on. And it is with all of the fake accounts such as this one, you're doing the exact same thing he did, and the exact same thing you all use to try and discredit him discredits you too. You have become what you hate.

If people claim James Espy was dishonest and untrustworthy because of such actions, then the absolute same is true of you.

[MrChocky]

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?

Let's not. Regardless of the merits of what SonnyV/Chat whoever did, it's your posts I'm finding incredibly aggressive and angry, and certainly toxic. Speaking very much for myself,
I don't care for your attitude. Let's review what you said to *me* upon my entry into the community:

"Long story short, you are not classic car owner material. I'm sorry, but that's just the truth from what I've read. Can that change for you? I don''t know. But at this stage of the game, I wouldn't even recommend a VW bug for you, let alone anything without a warranty."

Now I have 2 cars and help people every day. I guess you didn't see that coming. Fortunately, others had a higher opinion of me (thanks, thugs, you know who you are). I don't get on with everybody,
I sure don't live up to everyone's standards of how to "behave", but I'm here, and I'm involved. Point is, if we start being selective about who is "allowed" to be an owner/member of the community or
some old boys club, then I think we have a serious problem.

Don't get me wrong, I know you've been a very very long time member of the community, you've almost certainly helped far more people than I'm ever going to, and plenty of people probably
respect you greatly (probably myself, if I were to look in detail at your posts). However I have been online as long as you have (no small feat); I don't particularly think attitudes have changed much,
although Facebook has somewhat lowered the bar to entry.

Let's just say I firmly reject your condemnation of most everyone because they aren't like you are. Really these posts seem churlish, get-off-my-lawn-moments.

What I'm not seeing in any of your posts is any kind of suggestions for improvements from anyone, any conciliatory gestures from yourself, or anything of that nature.

Happy to take this private if that's to your liking.

Best wishes.

[SonnyV]

And this ladies and gentlemen is precisely what I, and others have been talking about. This is the precise kind of toxic post that is ruining the community.

Let's break things down a bit here, shall we?

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Do you actually have any? If no, you're just spreading rumors and lies.
2. There is a much longer list of people who have likely agitated DMCH long before even he came onto the scene that are far more likely to be "banned" from purchasing parts if Houston ever did such a thing. A couple of memes are not going to have that level of impact that he (let alone you) think they would have.
3. Last I heard online, Chad was complaining that DMC denied working on his car because he had a homemade carburetor rigged up to his engine. A system which if I recall he was vehemently dissatisfied with. Still, it was hardly a case if him being "banned". Declining to perform work on something that is clearly out of your scope of support is hardly being ostracized. That's like complaining your ISP has banned you from tech support for refusing to work on your printer or network.
4. This incident was a prime "I told you so" moment when I voiced opposition to the lack of documentation on installation and tuning so that any owner could independently maintain their cars. Something that many trolls just decided to pile onto me for (and Chad too)...yet it turns out it was indeed a valid concern.
5. Finally, you're posting from an anonymous account. Your words carry no weight, let alone validity within the community as a whole.

That last point is a very crucial one. You see, certainly you had a laugh with the gag account, and I'm sure others have as well. But what's the point now? The joke has long expired, yet you keep on posting under this account. So what is the purpose in it now except to try and maintain anonymity so that you can troll in order to cause and perpetuate discord among people? If you had the courage, you'd post under your real identity, but you don't want to be accountable for your words, do you?

The biggest thing here that amuses me is this: That whole "Sonny V" shit happened 2 decades ago, yet you, and others like you, just won't let it go. It's the only thing you have. But James has since apologized and like the rest of the community has moved on. The thing here isn't simply that you can't move on. And it is with all of the fake accounts such as this one, you're doing the exact same thing he did, and the exact same thing you all use to try and discredit him discredits you too. You have become what you hate.

If people claim James Espy was dishonest and untrustworthy because of such actions, then the absolute same is true of you.

Here's your proof:

Screenshot_20201018-022717_Facebook.jpg